Author Topic: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?  (Read 5373 times)

Offline Stormbringer

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Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« on: 07/14/2014 06:08 pm »
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/blackest-is-the-new-black-scientists-have-developed-a-material-so-dark-that-you-cant-see-it-9602504.html

New material with obvious military applications, not so obvious but present sensor applications and something else:

Quote
It also has "virtually undetectable levels of outgassing and particle fallout", which can contaminate the most sensitive imaging systems. The material conducts heat seven and a half times more effectively than copper and has 10 times the tensile strength of steel.

question:   can this be useful for TPS applications or as a heatpipe for cooling the skin of a reentering space craft?
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Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #1 on: 07/14/2014 06:23 pm »
I don't really think that there'd be an application for this in regards to a TPS, but it may prove useful for solar panels.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #2 on: 07/14/2014 06:26 pm »
i was thinking if it cannot be an outer coating perhaps in a layered approach with a titanium or other suitable outer skin with this stuff forming inner layer to conduct heat from the skin to a heat sink  or to a heat exchanger with coolant loops or something like that.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #3 on: 07/14/2014 06:54 pm »
i was thinking if it cannot be an outer coating perhaps in a layered approach with a titanium or other suitable outer skin with this stuff forming inner layer to conduct heat from the skin to a heat sink  or to a heat exchanger with coolant loops or something like that.
Conductance wise that would up with a heat pipe but the distance  you can conduct that heat through is miniscule, roughly the length of those CNTs.

Then of course we've the effect of Oxygen exposure to it at high temperature. This material has very high surface area so should burn off fairly quickly.

Turning the material on it's head would be what sort of emitteris it? Coating a radiator surfaces with it might be the way to go. IIRC the ISS radiators are pretty poor at something like 147 W/m^2, so you needs a big radiator to get rid of all that heat. Carbon fibre rugs on the radiator pipes have suggested a potential for 2000 W/m^2, so what could this do?

Current actual uses at present would be lining the barrels of optical sensors to cut down the background light so what the sensor is "seeing" is really from the target, not stray light, raising the sensors sensitivity (or letting a cryogen cooled sensor run without a supply of LN2/LH2/LHe)

The other question would be how broadband is this? It's obviously a potential stealth material. OTOH you do end up with a "hole in the sky" moving around, which may be as obvious as an actual target.  :(

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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #4 on: 07/14/2014 07:47 pm »
Well back to the drawing board then. i guess we'll just have to raid Maurice Ward's heirs for the starlite formula. :)
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Offline IRobot

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #5 on: 07/14/2014 09:27 pm »
There is no indication on the article regarding absorption vs wavelength. It might not be so good at UV or IR.

Regarding the astronomy cameras application, I am guessing they are talking about Bias and Dark frames for calibration, but I don't see much improvement there. Cameras are covered for those. Of course the surrounding electronics (and the CCD itself) generate some "light", especially in IR, so a near black cover would not reflect them back to the CCD.

Stuff like this cannot be close to a CCD because it can contaminate it with microscopic particles. Sure, you can isolate them, but then the material used for isolation is not so "dark".

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #6 on: 07/15/2014 04:37 pm »
There is no indication on the article regarding absorption vs wavelength. It might not be so good at UV or IR.

Regarding the astronomy cameras application, I am guessing they are talking about Bias and Dark frames for calibration, but I don't see much improvement there. Cameras are covered for those. Of course the surrounding electronics (and the CCD itself) generate some "light", especially in IR, so a near black cover would not reflect them back to the CCD.

Stuff like this cannot be close to a CCD because it can contaminate it with microscopic particles. Sure, you can isolate them, but then the material used for isolation is not so "dark".
I think if you read the article you'll see the CNT's are a)Very narrow (IE sub wave length) and b)very close together (also sub visible light wave length). It also states they are very low outgassing which is relevant and "shedding."

On that basis this coating will work fine at longer wavelengths and probably quite far into the UV,

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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #7 on: 07/15/2014 05:48 pm »
on that note i remember reading about progress in making longer CNTs. that they could be spun out to about 24 cms i think. but this was years ago. so i could be completely off on the length.
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Offline Asteroza

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #8 on: 07/16/2014 12:05 am »
While Surrey Nanosystems hasn't put out full info, their home press release indicates some characteristics. It's marginally better than that Independent fluff piece.

http://www.surreynanosystems.com/news/19/

and here's a paper

https://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/abstract.cfm?URI=oe-22-6-7290&origin=search
« Last Edit: 07/16/2014 06:21 am by Asteroza »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #9 on: 07/16/2014 06:36 am »
While Surrey Nanosystems hasn't put out full info, their home press release indicates some characteristics. It's marginally better than that Independent fluff piece.

http://www.surreynanosystems.com/news/19/

and here's a paper

https://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/abstract.cfm?URI=oe-22-6-7290&origin=search
So very good in the 2.5-15 micrometre range (and pretty black at visible wavelengths). Low outgassing, low particle shedding and can be grown on Aluminium without melting it.

Note this layer is also aligned vertically, which is not necessarily the case with other processes.
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Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #10 on: 07/16/2014 07:23 am »
It's marginally better than that Independent fluff piece.



Hey! Sometimes generic filler articles are all the notice you get that something new is out there.
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Offline Asteroza

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #11 on: 07/16/2014 08:20 am »
It's marginally better than that Independent fluff piece.



Hey! Sometimes generic filler articles are all the notice you get that something new is out there.

Sad but true. My personal pet peeve is science reporting sites that regurgitate a PR network release with NO LINKS back to the originating institution's press release and/or no link to the paper. At least dump a link to a university press office release, as usually a DOI link or actual paper is shuffling around there.

For instance, that the correct name is VANTAblack because VANTA is an acryonym of Vertically Aligned carbon NanoTube Array (maybe a backronym?).

Offline Hanelyp

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #12 on: 07/16/2014 03:29 pm »
I don't see much application for this new material outside of high grade optical devices.

For thermal management purposes as a radiator, going from 90% black to '100%' black gives you about an 11% relative performance gain.  Making the emission coating durable is in many ways more important than a marginal improvement in radiated power.

Offline sanman

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #13 on: 07/20/2014 04:42 am »
What about using Vantablack for space telescopes like James Webb, etc, which need a "sun shield" to absorb or block light from our Sun and planets, in order to better detect the weak light of distant stars and their planets?

Offline Stormbringer

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Re: Vantablack: TPS or active cooling applications?
« Reply #14 on: 04/07/2017 03:53 am »
updating:  http://www.livescience.com/58561-spray-on-vantablack-coating-is-blackest-material.html

Vantablack can now be applied via a spray can...

But can you saw in half a boat and use this to make it water tight again??
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