Author Topic: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser  (Read 119573 times)

Offline Prober

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #40 on: 06/16/2014 12:29 PM »
IMO the main relevant features will be system mass, payload capability (internal/external), and eventual cost per launch.  The last one represents a superset of the differences in landing/recovery.

Relative to a NASA-designed crew capsule, these are all incredibly cheap.  Keeping all three until we have a better grasp of their utility, and the overlap with Orion's utility, and how they might interact with commercial manned space stations, seems wise.

cheap on what basis?
all are still 4 years away from any operational status.

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Offline Nomadd

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #41 on: 06/16/2014 12:41 PM »
IMO the main relevant features will be system mass, payload capability (internal/external), and eventual cost per launch.  The last one represents a superset of the differences in landing/recovery.

Relative to a NASA-designed crew capsule, these are all incredibly cheap.  Keeping all three until we have a better grasp of their utility, and the overlap with Orion's utility, and how they might interact with commercial manned space stations, seems wise.

cheap on what basis?
all are still 4 years away from any operational status.


You can't be serious. How much will have been spent to develop, build and launch the first Orion? And, how do you figure 4 years for an operational Dragon 2?

Offline Mader Levap

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #42 on: 06/16/2014 01:24 PM »
all are still 4 years away from any operational status.
On my planet 2016 is two years in future, not 4.
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #43 on: 06/16/2014 01:40 PM »
Why is CST-100 boring?

Because it's a capsule, so is dragon?
Because it uses parachutes, so does Dragon to date.
Because it lands on land with airbags?  Dragon to date lands at sea.
Because it's made by Boeing?   You may see boring, others may see (perhaps mistakenly, reliability.)

Or just because it is not Space-X of Sierra Nevada?

Actually, to me, CST-100 is an Apollo shaped Big Gemini.

It's boring because it's similar to Dragon V2 but more expensive. Propulsive landing is also cooler than inflatable bags. DC is cool because it is a spaceplane. Dragon V2 and DC both look futuristic. The interior of the CST-100 is futuristic but the exterior isn't. But the biggest disadvantage of the CST-100 is the fact that it is another capsule and SpaceX already has a similar spacecraft. If NASA decides that it wants dissimilar spacecrafts, their design could end up being a disadvantage.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2014 01:51 PM by yg1968 »

Offline simonbp

Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #44 on: 06/16/2014 01:53 PM »
Yeah, the hybrids on DC were always intended as the abort motors. It was only after that they also became the circularization thrusters.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #45 on: 06/16/2014 02:02 PM »
But the biggest disadvanatge of the CST-100 is the fact that it is another capsule and SpaceX already has a similar spacecraft. If NASA decids that it wants dissimilar spacecrafts, this could be a disadvantage for the CST-100.

I think that's pretty much the biggest con against CST-100.

I have no doubt Boeing can make a safe, well operating capsule, but if we assume that by virtue of their progress and pricing that SpaceX has the first CCtCap contract slot locked up, NASA is then left with the choice between yet another capsule that or a space plane that offers advantages neither of the capsules offer.

If NASA determines that they have enough money to get Dream Chaser through development and into operation, I think Dream Chaser will be the second vehicle chosen.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Jim

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #46 on: 06/16/2014 02:59 PM »

Sure, it's an "issue."  Since the entire future of the Atlas V is an "issue", given the current situation with the Russian government having announced it won't honor the former RD-180 engine contracts it had formerly signed.


Wrong,  Where is the proof that they won't honor the contracts?

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #47 on: 06/16/2014 03:34 PM »

Sure, it's an "issue."  Since the entire future of the Atlas V is an "issue", given the current situation with the Russian government having announced it won't honor the former RD-180 engine contracts it had formerly signed.


Wrong,  Where is the proof that they won't honor the contracts?

Where's the.proof they will? Given their recent statements and behavior a good dose of doubt is a healthy thing.
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #48 on: 06/16/2014 03:36 PM »

Sure, it's an "issue."  Since the entire future of the Atlas V is an "issue", given the current situation with the Russian government having announced it won't honor the former RD-180 engine contracts it had formerly signed.


Wrong,  Where is the proof that they won't honor the contracts?

Where's the.proof they will? Given their recent statements and behavior a good dose of doubt is a healthy thing.

OFF TOPIC.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline starsilk

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #49 on: 06/16/2014 03:50 PM »
Both DC and CST100 have the Atlas V issue to cope with.

Not an issue for commercial and NASA missions

price will go up if the number of launches drops. which it will, substantially, if 'military' flights are not allowed.

Offline oiorionsbelt

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #50 on: 06/16/2014 05:04 PM »
Dragon V2 is the only one with an already tried and true Human rated launch pad. Just kidding, but doesn't NASA leasing 39A to SpaceX show NASA confidence? This is a pro.

Offline oiorionsbelt

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #51 on: 06/16/2014 05:16 PM »
Dragon V2 will have two launch vehicles. F9 and FH. Having the extra lift of FH will offer an operational advantage.

Offline arachnitect

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #52 on: 06/16/2014 05:54 PM »
Dragon V2 will have two launch vehicles. F9 and FH. Having the extra lift of FH will offer an operational advantage.


What do you propose to do with the extra performance?

Don't need FH to get 4 people to ISS.

Online moralec

Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #53 on: 06/16/2014 06:03 PM »
Dragon V2 will have two launch vehicles. F9 and FH. Having the extra lift of FH will offer an operational advantage.


What do you propose to do with the extra performance?

Don't need FH to get 4 people to ISS.

I think he has flights beyond LEO in mind...

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #54 on: 06/16/2014 06:20 PM »
Dragon V2 will have two launch vehicles. F9 and FH. Having the extra lift of FH will offer an operational advantage.


What do you propose to do with the extra performance?

Don't need FH to get 4 people to ISS.

I think he has flights beyond LEO in mind...

For the context of this discussion though, we are only talking about NASA crew requirements in LEO.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline dror

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #55 on: 06/16/2014 06:24 PM »
Dragon V2 will have two launch vehicles. F9 and FH. Having the extra lift of FH will offer an operational advantage.
With that reasoning you can say DC and CST will have many launch vehicles: atlas v 402-552...
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Offline oiorionsbelt

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #56 on: 06/16/2014 06:29 PM »
Dragon V2 will have two launch vehicles. F9 and FH. Having the extra lift of FH will offer an operational advantage.


What do you propose to do with the extra performance?

Don't need FH to get 4 people to ISS.
No but you could get a lot of junk in the trunk with all that extra performance.
 Speaking of trunks, how do CST100 and DC stack up against Dragon with respect to cargo in addition to crew?
« Last Edit: 06/16/2014 06:30 PM by oiorionsbelt »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #57 on: 06/16/2014 07:48 PM »
Dragon V2 will have two launch vehicles. F9 and FH. Having the extra lift of FH will offer an operational advantage.


What do you propose to do with the extra performance?

Don't need FH to get 4 people to ISS.
No but you could get a lot of junk in the trunk with all that extra performance.
 Speaking of trunks, how do CST100 and DC stack up against Dragon with respect to cargo in addition to crew?
Biggest issue is docking collar inner diameter. CST-100 might get adapted to CBM. But then they will have to change the approx ops. I've not seen a single reference that CBM could be fit to the DC aft. Apparently it's simply too small.
DC has the "softer" entry advantage. And until Dv2 it was able to offer shorter times from landing to payload deliveries (L+1 vs L+8, I think). But if Dv2 propulsive landing is implemented, Spx can offer that service, too.
Now, an HL42 on a FH could make for an amazing LEO transport. But that's just for a whole different discussion.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #58 on: 06/16/2014 09:33 PM »
What happens to the vehicles that are not selected?. I've not read anything stating what a manufacturer will do if their vehicle is not selected.

SpaceX has Mars as along term goal, plus there was an arrangement with Bigelow which I've not heard much about recently.

Boeing has an arrangement with Bigelow plus Space Adventures  http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1406/15lunarsoyuz/#.U59XkGf7Jgg

SNC have stated a few different uses for DC but not sure if they have any firm customers.

In regards to LVs the recent Altas issues are definitely a dark cloud hanging over Boeing and SNC. The only real alternative LV is F9 as neither Delta or Ariane are man rated. I think SpaceX would enjoy the prestige of flying the CTS100.



Offline guckyfan

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Re: Pros and Cons, Dragon V2, CST-100 and Dream Chaser
« Reply #59 on: 06/16/2014 09:49 PM »
Would the service module of CST-100 allow similar size and weight of vacuum cargo as the Dragon trunk? I think not but may be wrong.

Would Dream Chaser have any capacity for vacuum cargo?

Vacuum cargo capacity may not be required that frequently but it is important.

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