Author Topic: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission  (Read 167065 times)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #380 on: 06/10/2014 02:13 am »
Or putting it another way ARM is a valid mission without astronauts, SLS, Orion and return of the samples.  Getting the samples is the mission creep.

Having acquired an asteroid as part of a planetary defence exercise we may as well do a reconnaissance of the target.   The information may be useful in a future mission when tackling a dangerous asteroid.

Painting NASA, instead of US Air Force, on the side of the vehicle is primary to reassure foreign countries that the ARM vehicle is not the Pentagon's latest weapon of mass destruction.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #381 on: 08/13/2014 04:45 pm »
Here is an update on the ARM mission (slides 13 to 24):
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/20140728-Williams-NAC.pdf

Offline Burninate

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #382 on: 08/13/2014 08:02 pm »
I've been in two minds about this asteriod retrieval mission but after reading the Keck report again I've become enthusiastc about it.

The original mission video of capturing an asteriod then using Astronauts to collect a sample of it seemed like a large waste of money for a few rock samples. But if you look at from ISRU view point it is definitely a step in right direction.
A successful mission would place few hundred mts of oxygen (oxides in rock) and hopeful water within permanent reach of earth. Extracting the water or oxygen may not be easy but it would be to be easier (less difficult) than lunar ISRU and would be permanently in place to experiment on. Any extracted oxygen or water(LOX/LH) would be in ideal location to support lunar missions.

At end of the mission the SEP could be refuel for new mission using existing LVs and used again to retrieve another asteroid for a lot less than original $1.25B. A 200KW VASIMR seems better choice of SEP ie 2.4 year round trip compared to 10yrs for 40KW SEP but I'm no expert on SEPs.
http://www.adastrarocket.com/AndrewIEPC13-336-Paper.pdf

Ion thrusters are trivial to parallelize, and even gain some reliability benefits (redundant electron guns) in arrays.

That said, an ion thruster like NEXT will be able to reliably exhaust only around 12-15x its own mass, over a constant-thrust 5-6 year burn.  Solar panels and tank dry mass reduce this even further, to 5-10x depending on assumptions.

That implies that a "40kW SEP system" is *tiny* in the context of a 500 ton asteroid.  Mount only 40kW  of NEXT thrusters, and you only get around 400m/s of delta V over five years, and then parts start to fail.  You could stretch that to ~1600m/s over 20 years by packing additional thrusters for the same photovoltaics, but by the time the mission is ready, half of the team will be retired.

What we need in the short-medium term is not giant ion thrusters;  There are minor improvements to be made there on thermal efficiency, specific power in W/kg, and lifetime / propellant throughput, but arrays of smaller thrusters seem to work just fine, and it seems xenon production is nowhere near capacity.  Instead, work on lightweight, inexpensive 200kw-2MW scale solar photovoltaic arrays is the most pressing need.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 08:04 pm by Burninate »

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #383 on: 08/13/2014 08:24 pm »
Dumb thought here.

     What if part of this whole aseroid retreaval mission is to get an asteroid that we can HIT an asteroid with?

     This, like I said will sound crazy, but, If an asteroid were heading towards Earth, No Nukes available for a deflection shot, Gravity Tractor couldn't be in place in time, using a directed rock to HIT another and knock it away, actually makes sense.  And it really wouldn't matter what type of asteroid it is.

     Iron/nickle hard rock, changes course while rubblizing deflection rock.
     Rubble Pile, partiale disruption of asteroid, but should reconsolidate around new added rock and continue of deflected path.
     Dust ball, either completely disrupts it, or splats into itbecoming new core and deflects the asteroid.
     Ice ball, Hits it and sticks, deflecting Ice Ball.

     The best part of the plan, as it would be in the L-2 Lunar Lagrange point, boost it towards the moon first, altering the location of the perigee above the lunar surface for targeting, and use the moon to slingshot the asteroid to impact the other asteroid, using the attached maneuvering pack/capture module to course correct and boost at the perigee for best effect.

     Heck, even if you DON'T impact it directly, as long as you have the time, you could use it as a gravity tractor, assuming you snag a 500+ ton rock.
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Offline Robert Thompson

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #384 on: 08/13/2014 10:24 pm »
Off topic, related:

TheSpaceShow, Aug/11/2014
Guest: Dr. Martin Elvis. Topics: Asteroid mining, commercial space, NASA.
http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/2294-BWB-2014-08-11.mp3

Some refreshing cold water on non-near-earth / much higher dV asteroid mining.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 10:27 pm by Hernalt »

Offline sdsds

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #385 on: 08/14/2014 04:01 am »
Here is an update on the ARM mission (slides 13 to 24):
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/20140728-Williams-NAC.pdf

Thanks for this. There's a bit I still don't understand about ARM. A stated goal is, "Demonstrate basic planetary defense techniques that will inform impact threat mitigation strategies to defend our home planet." Yet they show an "option B" for redirecting the asteroid to cis-lunar space (see attached). How would picking up a boulder demonstrate any sort of planetary defense technique?

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Offline arachnitect

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #386 on: 08/14/2014 05:00 am »
Here is an update on the ARM mission (slides 13 to 24):
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/20140728-Williams-NAC.pdf

Thanks for this. There's a bit I still don't understand about ARM. A stated goal is, "Demonstrate basic planetary defense techniques that will inform impact threat mitigation strategies to defend our home planet." Yet they show an "option B" for redirecting the asteroid to cis-lunar space (see attached). How would picking up a boulder demonstrate any sort of planetary defense technique?



There was some talk of testing the "gravity tractor" concept as part of ARM at one point. Not sure if that's still on the table.

Offline sdsds

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #387 on: 08/14/2014 06:22 am »
"gravity tractor"

Ah, right! And once I've grabbed a boulder I get to use its mass as part of my mass for the gravity tractor effect. So the mission could reasonably meet the "planetary defense" demonstration requirement using either option A or B....
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Offline MP99



I don't know about that. However, I also think that people complaining about the scientific content (or lack thereof) of the asteroid capture mission are rather missing the point, engineering. It's not Apollo 11, it's Apollo 7, to draw an inexact analogy; it primarily tests a number of technologies and techniques that will be useful to future missions. For example, it obviously demands the development of tools and tactics for working in a near-zero-g environment around a natural rather than a built object, something which has never been done before and which would be useful to future missions to NEAs or to Mars' moons. It also demands the development of a number of technologies which would be useful to a future Mars mission, such as precision automated rendezvous to an unresponsive and unhelpful target, really high-power electric propulsion, and large-scale deep space power production.

Hence, the mission should be judged on both the scientific and engineering axes, that is how much does it support developing the technology needed to go further and how much it develops scientific knowledge. Judging it based on either is very incomplete, and I'm a little disappointed that so many people on these forums have been neglecting one or the other (mostly the engineering side). To me, it seems to be very clever in several ways; besides adding science to certain demonstrator missions, thereby increasing the probability of them getting funded, it turns what would otherwise be an early drought in SLS/Orion missions (owing to the lack of most mission-specific hardware) into something that advances the state of the art for later, without the expense needed for a full-scale deep space vehicle or a lunar lander. While I would prefer a non-SLS-based architecture, if it must be used this is an intelligent way to do it, and so I think it's a good idea NASA is working on it.

Congress required NASA to pick an SLS design that could be operational (with MPCV) by end 2016, within the budget available.

They then expected NASA to undertake an asteroid mission by ~2025 *which would have demonstrated Deep Space Hab and and EDS* as build up for Mars precursor missions ~2035.

ARM is just a way for NASA to sidestep that they're not on schedule to hit Congress' target date for Mars, which was the justification in the first place.

I can see how ARM could be a good place to test a DSH, but I don't see any plans to actually do that.

I know that ARM is supposed to be a path to a SEP-based architecture, but given Congress has directed build of an expensive HLV, ISTM to make more sense to save the investment in high power SEP (and the multiple SEP stages it would require), and go with the sort of Abundant Chemical architecture that Congress seemed to have envisaged.

I could happily be persuaded that ARM is a valid alternative, if I could be persuaded they're still on track to get to Mars on time.

Cheers, Martin

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #389 on: 08/14/2014 08:51 am »
..and go with the sort of Abundant Chemical architecture that Congress seemed to have envisaged.
That explains their rabid support for depots and in-space propellant storage research. ;)

Offline M129K

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #390 on: 08/14/2014 03:30 pm »
Here is an update on the ARM mission (slides 13 to 24):
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/20140728-Williams-NAC.pdf
So, a mission using DRO as a staging point, with a reusable habitat and Chemical and SEP propulsion has become the official baseline for a mission to Mars? If so, I'm very happy with that news (unless I've been sleeping under a rock again).

Edit: Took out what could become a political fight.
« Last Edit: 08/14/2014 03:35 pm by M129K »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #391 on: 08/14/2014 03:53 pm »
Here is an update on the ARM mission (slides 13 to 24):
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/20140728-Williams-NAC.pdf
So, a mission using DRO as a staging point, with a reusable habitat and Chemical and SEP propulsion has become the official baseline for a mission to Mars? If so, I'm very happy with that news (unless I've been sleeping under a rock again).

Edit: Took out what could become a political fight.

It isn't official yet. The Evolvable Mars campaign findings are due in September. See slide 34. See also this thread for a previous discussion of the Evolvable Mars campaign:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35122.0
« Last Edit: 08/14/2014 04:02 pm by yg1968 »

Offline libs0n

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #392 on: 08/14/2014 04:30 pm »

Congress required NASA to pick an SLS design that could be operational (with MPCV) by end 2016, within the budget available.

They then expected NASA to undertake an asteroid mission by ~2025 *which would have demonstrated Deep Space Hab and and EDS* as build up for Mars precursor missions ~2035.


I don't agree with your narrative.  Asteroid in 2025 and Mars in 2035 was the administration's directive prior to SLS.  SLS was forced in by congress for reasons other than meeting it.  This warped the budget and reduced the extent of the administration's plans for investing in maturation of systems necessary for meeting the target, and so the viability of meeting those goals was eliminated.  ARM is a downscoped microcosm of the administration's original objective that can fit in the smaller resulting budget envelope in the timeframe.

Offline newpylong

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #393 on: 08/20/2014 01:20 am »

Congress required NASA to pick an SLS design that could be operational (with MPCV) by end 2016, within the budget available.

They then expected NASA to undertake an asteroid mission by ~2025 *which would have demonstrated Deep Space Hab and and EDS* as build up for Mars precursor missions ~2035.


I don't agree with your narrative.  Asteroid in 2025 and Mars in 2035 was the administration's directive prior to SLS.  SLS was forced in by congress for reasons other than meeting it.  This warped the budget and reduced the extent of the administration's plans for investing in maturation of systems necessary for meeting the target, and so the viability of meeting those goals was eliminated.  ARM is a downscoped microcosm of the administration's original objective that can fit in the smaller resulting budget envelope in the timeframe.

While this narrative is true, it's a pipe dream to think another (NASA) flagship launch system would be any cheaper. The hand writing was on the wall when Obama "wanted to visit an asteroid by the mid 2020s."

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #394 on: 08/20/2014 05:39 am »
While this narrative is true, it's a pipe dream to think another (NASA) flagship launch system would be any cheaper. The hand writing was on the wall when Obama "wanted to visit an asteroid by the mid 2020s."
Im not really sure Im reading you correctly. The point should of course be to avoid trying to solve the problem with another flagship launch system, right? This might be the obvious fact you are pointing out.

An asteroid mission does not need any particularly well defined delta v. You can always visit a dust grain. What it needs is detection of as many candidates as possible, a DSH that we are have achieved great confidence in years before a specific target is chosen, and great confidence that your rockets will work after many days in space to return you home.

Most importantly, the goal was ultimately capabilities, not an asteroid. Sure, depots (little more than existing upper stages) are not absolutely proven. Maybe a gamble on them might mean you somehow miss an asteroid deadline. That lesson would be more important than the visit. We need that technology. No single HLV launch will get us to mars. Anyway, we need long term fuel storage to get home.  It would just reveal how idiotic we would have been to avoid learning of our total incompetence here till a decade or two later. Oops, turned out we have to redevelop our infrastructure from scratch around methane instead of hydrogen, or hypergolics or SEP.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #395 on: 01/28/2015 04:09 pm »
Here is a recent presentation on the ARM at the January NAC HEO Committee:
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/2-20150111_ARM_update_NAC_HEOC.pdf

Offline Khadgars

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #396 on: 02/01/2015 01:12 am »
Here is a recent presentation on the ARM at the January NAC HEO Committee:
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/2-20150111_ARM_update_NAC_HEOC.pdf

Thanks, good read.

I found this interesting from the presentation

Quote
In just the last 2 weeks, Arecibo characterized two ~10m NEAs
that were almost suitable candidates for ARM Option A
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Offline redliox

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #397 on: 02/02/2015 10:10 am »
Here is a recent presentation on the ARM at the January NAC HEO Committee:
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/2-20150111_ARM_update_NAC_HEOC.pdf

Good to see a handful of details, specifically on suits, sample and emergency kits, and contingency plans around DRO.  It does make for a good read to see what progress regarding Orion/ARM has been made. 

The asteroids thus far mentioned, are these the actual targets that may be drawn upon, baring a 'miracle asteroid' discovery?

What I'd really like to see are decisions on ARM and the vehicles needed to supplement Orion's habitability and long-term spaceflight.

Seems like a lot of meetings are happening in February between human space flight and many planetary communities.  I hope they all bring good news and results.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #398 on: 02/04/2015 06:04 am »
Here is a recent presentation on the ARM at the January NAC HEO Committee:
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/2-20150111_ARM_update_NAC_HEOC.pdf
Most interesting.

Lots to digest. Note they already have the high power ion thrusters, solar array and power systems technology (although I doubt the hardware) ready to go. They've also upped radar resolution from 8m to 4m, and demonstrated full scale capture hardware for option B (boulder, not rubble pile).

This looks it could be the first long duration deep space  mission (as in beyond Moon orbit in some parts) since the early 1970's.

Personally I think flying inside a hollowed out (large) boulder is the way to get around the solar system as it side steps pull what is basically a lot of dumb mass up Earths gravity well for radiation shielding.

Pretty much the simplest bit of "ISRU" you can have.  :)
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Gerstenmaier expands on recently announced asteroid mission
« Reply #399 on: 02/18/2015 11:32 pm »
Here is a recent presentation on the ARM at the January NAC HEO Committee:
http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/2-20150111_ARM_update_NAC_HEOC.pdf
Most interesting.

Lots to digest. Note they already have the high power ion thrusters, solar array and power systems technology (although I doubt the hardware) ready to go. They've also upped radar resolution from 8m to 4m, and demonstrated full scale capture hardware for option B (boulder, not rubble pile).

This looks it could be the first long duration deep space  mission (as in beyond Moon orbit in some parts) since the early 1970's.

Personally I think flying inside a hollowed out (large) boulder is the way to get around the solar system as it side steps pull what is basically a lot of dumb mass up Earths gravity well for radiation shielding.

Pretty much the simplest bit of "ISRU" you can have.  :)
Most of that would be really horrible shielding mass, though, generating lots of secondaries. May be better off extracting the water from the asteroid and putting it in tanks around your vehicle. Or if you REALLY want mass efficiency (and are operating a largish craft), split off the oxygen (use it as warm-gas propellant?) and surround your habitat with the (liquid) hydrogen. Far zippier than bulky regolith-based shielding.

So while I agree, using asteroid material as radiation shielding makes sense for a largely-stationary space (um...) station, the ideal way to shield something zipping around the solar system would be with liquid hydrogen.
« Last Edit: 02/18/2015 11:49 pm by Robotbeat »
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