Author Topic: ESA-Roscosmos: ExoMars 2016 updates and discussion  (Read 237686 times)

Offline plutogno

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #20 on: 03/15/2013 06:42 AM »

What's the point of the EDM "landing demonstrator"? They cannot use it for the rover anyway, right?

in Europe we have tried landing on Mars once and failed, so there is a point in demonstrating the capability of landing anything on the planet

Offline spectre9

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #21 on: 03/15/2013 08:05 AM »
Aeroshell
Parachutes
Descent propulsion
Propellant tanks
Guidance and Navigation

How much does ExoMars weigh?

How big will the capsule need to be?

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #22 on: 03/15/2013 08:49 AM »

What's the point of the EDM "landing demonstrator"? They cannot use it for the rover anyway, right?

in Europe we have tried landing on Mars once and failed, so there is a point in demonstrating the capability of landing anything on the planet

But the original point was to test techology for the main lander.  Given the history this was reasonable.  This way they won't be able to do that.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline asmi

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #23 on: 03/15/2013 09:36 AM »
Heard some interesting rumors about this marriage. Apparently the Europeans are less than happy with the work they've seen by the Russians. I won't go into any more detail than that, except to say that some people are apparently very worried about the level of expertise in the Russian space program.
And yet the Russians somehow have managed to achieve (and still are) things in space that Europeans can only dream about... I think whoever said that should check the facts first. One needs to achieve something worthwhile before he/she gets a moral right to critisize.

Offline anik

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #24 on: 03/15/2013 09:46 AM »
Is there confirmation of this?

http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=19951

"Кроме того, для обеих миссий Роскосмос предоставляет ракеты-носители «Протон», разгонные блоки «Бриз-М» и соответствующие пусковые услуги"

Offline Blackstar

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #25 on: 03/15/2013 10:36 AM »
Heard some interesting rumors about this marriage. Apparently the Europeans are less than happy with the work they've seen by the Russians. I won't go into any more detail than that, except to say that some people are apparently very worried about the level of expertise in the Russian space program.

Really, after several decades of cooperation on planetary missions they are suddenly saying this now?  I would doubt the rumours.

That's okay. Feel free. I don't have a stake in it one way or another. I heard this from somebody who was equally steamed at how unreliable the Americans are. But keep in mind that in this case they are talking about a degree of cooperation that is unprecedented.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #26 on: 03/15/2013 10:40 AM »
And yet the Russians somehow have managed to achieve (and still are) things in space that Europeans can only dream about... I think whoever said that should check the facts first. One needs to achieve something worthwhile before he/she gets a moral right to critisize.

Er... this isn't about macho posturing or waving a flag. And I'd note that Europe's planetary science program has been a lot more active and successful in the past two decades than the Russian one.

What I heard was that there was a big meeting over technical issues and the Europeans discovered at least one really startling error in the Russians' work, the kind of thing that makes them really nervous that they're working with a team that doesn't just have quality control problems, but may have more fundamental problems than that. Take that for what it's worth.

Offline Archibald

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #27 on: 03/15/2013 10:48 AM »
Quote
there was a big meeting over technical issues and the Europeans discovered at least one really startling error in the Russians' work

An obvious question then is: can the European help the Russians correcting those mistakes ? and improving their program as a whole ?

Offline Oli

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #28 on: 03/15/2013 10:52 AM »
Quote from: Dalhousie
But the original point was to test techology for the main lander.  Given the history this was reasonable.  This way they won't be able to do that.

NASA would have been responsible for the rover lander, which is reasonable, given the expertise NASA has. However the last time russia landed on mars was 40 years ago, so for me it just seems to be political decision (too expensive, so lets outsource what we have outsourced before). With a team already working on EDM this seems like a nonsensical and unnecessarily risky decision to me.

Anyway, I'm sure the russians can do it :)

Offline Blackstar

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #29 on: 03/15/2013 11:01 AM »
An obvious question then is: can the European help the Russians correcting those mistakes ? and improving their program as a whole ?

They shouldn't have to. The goal is a cooperative program that lands a rover on Mars. The goal isn't to help the Russians improve their planetary program.

But maybe it was just a glitch and everything will be fine.

Offline GClark

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #30 on: 03/15/2013 11:27 AM »

Offline baldusi

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #31 on: 03/15/2013 07:02 PM »
Quote from: Dalhousie
But the original point was to test techology for the main lander.  Given the history this was reasonable.  This way they won't be able to do that.

NASA would have been responsible for the rover lander, which is reasonable, given the expertise NASA has. However the last time russia landed on mars was 40 years ago, so for me it just seems to be political decision (too expensive, so lets outsource what we have outsourced before). With a team already working on EDM this seems like a nonsensical and unnecessarily risky decision to me.

Anyway, I'm sure the russians can do it :)
I've gotten the impression that the Russian lander was one of the conditions for this cooperation. After all, those Protons are not cheap and why would they let ESA test EDL but not let them try to get one EDL success themselves?
BTW. I think that if the Europeans are going to land on an EDL of the Russians they are going to check every test and calculation at all the meetings. I think they might spend a fair bit extra on system engineering support.

Offline asmi

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #32 on: 03/16/2013 02:49 AM »
According to the order, one Proton-M has been ordered for 1 509 826 000 RUR, which is about 49.2 million US dollars.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #33 on: 03/16/2013 05:07 AM »
And yet the Russians somehow have managed to achieve (and still are) things in space that Europeans can only dream about... I think whoever said that should check the facts first. One needs to achieve something worthwhile before he/she gets a moral right to critisize.

Er... this isn't about macho posturing or waving a flag. And I'd note that Europe's planetary science program has been a lot more active and successful in the past two decades than the Russian one.

What I heard was that there was a big meeting over technical issues and the Europeans discovered at least one really startling error in the Russians' work, the kind of thing that makes them really nervous that they're working with a team that doesn't just have quality control problems, but may have more fundamental problems than that. Take that for what it's worth.

What sort of problem?  Is the source cedible?
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline bolun

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #34 on: 04/08/2013 02:10 PM »
Shaking ExoMars
 
8 April 2013

The structural model of the Entry, Descent and Landing Demonstrator Module, or EDM, of ESA’s 2016 ExoMars mission has been subjected to a series of intense shaker tests to simulate the rigours of launching into space.
 
EDM will be launched to Mars together with the Trace Gas Orbiter and will test key landing technologies in preparation for the 2018 ExoMars rover mission and subsequent missions to Mars.

http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Shaking_ExoMars

Image credit: ESA & A. Le Floc’h

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #35 on: 04/08/2013 02:16 PM »
I am still shaking my head at the missed opportunity to milk just a little bit more science with the ExoMars 2016 lander - you'd think they will go with something like a Beagle 2 instrument set and designed for something like a month on Mars, just like Mars Pathfinder did. Now ESA is stuck with a 4-day Mars weather station with the EDL techniques finding no other place to go (the ExoMars rover will land on some TBD Russian EDL hardware).....  ::)

Also apparently the candidate landing site for the 2016 lander is right next to Opportunity (well actually only a few dozen km away) on Meridiani Planum, but I can't find the source right now...
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline bolun

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Offline bolun

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #37 on: 05/21/2013 08:37 PM »

Offline bolun

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #38 on: 05/24/2013 07:26 PM »
ARCA in the ExoMars program



http://www.arcaspace.com/en/exomars.htm

Offline spectre9

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Re: ExoMars: ESA and Roscosmos set for Mars missions
« Reply #39 on: 05/24/2013 11:43 PM »
Why do they have to drop the parachute on Earth?

Don't they have a wind tunnel big enough in Europe?

I'm just comparing it to the MSL parachute testing.

Tags: Mars Exomars