Author Topic: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight  (Read 78991 times)

Offline adrianwyard

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #100 on: 06/26/2012 05:17 pm »
That's an interesting idea. I'd feel more confident in the future of commercial projects like Dream Chaser if there were multiple revenue options beyond a small number of trips to the ISS for NASA. I've previously suggested powered sub-orbital hops from WK2 - offered at a premium over SS2 tickets since DC is a 'real' spacecraft. But taking passengers - or just deep-pocket joyriders - transcontinental to a real destination at high-speed is a service that has an obvious appeal over SS2. This would put Concorde and proposed supersonic bizjets to shame. High-value cargo too, perhaps.

I'd like to ask if there's anything like an appropriate upper stage that could be cheap enough to make this workable - and how large it would need to be - but since I can already feel the shockwave from Jim's approaching 'unfounded speculation' hammer, I will stop here.
« Last Edit: 06/26/2012 05:25 pm by adrianwyard »

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #101 on: 06/26/2012 05:42 pm »
That's an interesting idea. I'd feel more confident in the future of commercial projects like Dream Chaser if there were multiple revenue options beyond a small number of trips to the ISS for NASA.

I'd almost rather we stop the half-hearted efforts that have us spinning our wheels while going nowhere, and divert funding from SLS/Orion to very achievable projects like this one.  I was initially a supporter of SLS, but the timetables are just too drawn out and the flight rates too low...and meanwhile, vehicles like DreamChaser have been so close to reality so many times, and just need a little funding to push them over that hurdle.

Sure, I want to see us go back to the moon and beyond, but not if it means being unable to even do much in LEO for the next 10+ years while we wait for SLS/Orion to come online (and even then, not even being able to do much more than Apollo 8-style missions).
« Last Edit: 06/26/2012 05:46 pm by vt_hokie »

Offline Jim

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #102 on: 06/26/2012 05:52 pm »
transcontinental to a real destination at high-speed


No business case for that.
« Last Edit: 06/26/2012 05:53 pm by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #103 on: 06/26/2012 05:54 pm »
I've previously suggested powered sub-orbital hops from WK2 - offered at a premium over SS2 tickets since DC is a 'real' spacecraft.

Not really, the flight profile would be the same for either spacecraft.

Offline adrianwyard

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #104 on: 06/26/2012 05:55 pm »
transcontinental to a real destination at high-speed


No business case for that.

Unfounded speculation  :)

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #105 on: 06/26/2012 05:58 pm »
transcontinental to a real destination at high-speed


No business case for that.

Unfounded speculation  :)
No, it's not. Even some suborbital tourism evangelists don't think there's a business case for suborbital transcontinental transport. At this point and the foreseeable future, it will cost far too much (quite comparable to an orbital trip, because the velocity requirements are similar), plus will have crazy regulatory/treaty issues (same flight profile as an ICBM?).

In the very long term, MAYBE. But it will mean orbital trips must be very, very cheap.
« Last Edit: 06/26/2012 05:59 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline Lurker Steve

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #106 on: 06/26/2012 06:07 pm »
I've previously suggested powered sub-orbital hops from WK2 - offered at a premium over SS2 tickets since DC is a 'real' spacecraft.

Not really, the flight profile would be the same for either spacecraft.

What's the proposed duration of a sub-orbital flight ? Any more takers for an
Orbital flight that does 2-3 full orbits before landing fairly close to the launch site ?

Offline adrianwyard

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #107 on: 06/26/2012 06:19 pm »
Re "no business case"

Well if we want to follow this general idea forward and get to real-world operational and regulatory details, then I could well believe the business becomes iffy. Predicting the future in detail is hard.

I thought you were saying that there's no case for high-speed travel per se. I personally paid the big bucks to travel on Concorde, and definitely felt as though I got my money's worth.

As you say, the first hurdle is the oft-quoted assessment that you need near-orbital velocity to get any useful (marketable) distance. If that's derived unambiguously from the physics, then that would a good reason to move on.

Another problem is disposal of the upper stage. I'm picturing Wile-E-Coyote duct-taping a sixpack of RocketMotorTwo's together to form an upper stage, which then falls back demolishing his house...
« Last Edit: 06/26/2012 06:22 pm by adrianwyard »

Offline Jorge

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #108 on: 06/26/2012 06:34 pm »
Re "no business case"

Well if we want to follow this general idea forward and get to real-world operational and regulatory details, then I could well believe the business becomes iffy. Predicting the future in detail is hard.

I thought you were saying that there's no case for high-speed travel per se. I personally paid the big bucks to travel on Concorde, and definitely felt as though I got my money's worth.

As you say, the first hurdle is the oft-quoted assessment that you need near-orbital velocity to get any useful (marketable) distance. If that's derived unambiguously from the physics, then that would a good reason to move on.

It is. Orbital velocity is around 25.8 kfps; a transatlantic flight requires about 18.4 kfps (see, for example, the STS-135 3-engine-out TAL boundary, below). SS2/WK2 will be in the 3-4 kfps range.
JRF

Offline adrianwyard

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #109 on: 06/26/2012 06:38 pm »
I've previously suggested powered sub-orbital hops from WK2 - offered at a premium over SS2 tickets since DC is a 'real' spacecraft.

Not really, the flight profile would be the same for either spacecraft.

What's the proposed duration of a sub-orbital flight ? Any more takers for an
Orbital flight that does 2-3 full orbits before landing fairly close to the launch site ?

Actually, DC powered flight would be much more limited than SS2 as it has about half the performance. (DC: 2x 15K lbf, SS2: 1x 60K lbf, both craft are ~10 t).

I would hope SNC could sell these seats at a premium because it is a 'real' orbital spacecraft that has probably been to the ISS. I'll admit not everyone will see the value in this feature, and suggested this not as a top tier business justification for DC, but as an example of how I think these companies need to operate. i.e. someone should notice that they have a craft that did sub-orbital hops as part of the test program, and then wonder if people would pay to ride it. The idea can then be shot down for any number of reasons...
« Last Edit: 06/26/2012 07:22 pm by adrianwyard »

Offline adrianwyard

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #110 on: 06/26/2012 06:44 pm »
Re "no business case"

Well if we want to follow this general idea forward and get to real-world operational and regulatory details, then I could well believe the business becomes iffy. Predicting the future in detail is hard.

I thought you were saying that there's no case for high-speed travel per se. I personally paid the big bucks to travel on Concorde, and definitely felt as though I got my money's worth.

As you say, the first hurdle is the oft-quoted assessment that you need near-orbital velocity to get any useful (marketable) distance. If that's derived unambiguously from the physics, then that would a good reason to move on.

It is. Orbital velocity is around 25.8 kfps; a transatlantic flight requires about 18.4 kfps (see, for example, the STS-135 3-engine-out TAL boundary, below). SS2/WK2 will be in the 3-4 kfps range.

Thanks Jorge, this is what's great about NSF. Now you mention it I was always struck by the brief time that TAL was preferred before ATO, and this does seem likely generalizable to all rocket trajectories.

If the US were cheap enough you could try and sell trips that went several hundred miles, but disposing of the US is now a big problem. Sounds like we've hit a pretty hard wall...

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #111 on: 06/26/2012 06:45 pm »
From Captive Carry test to sub-orbital tourism… Sooooooo OT… ;D
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Offline Jim

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #112 on: 06/26/2012 07:03 pm »
. I personally paid the big bucks to travel on Concorde, and definitely felt as though I got my money's worth.


Joyride and not a business decision

Offline adrianwyard

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Re: SNC Captive Carry test sees Dream Chaser take flight
« Reply #113 on: 06/26/2012 07:21 pm »
. I personally paid the big bucks to travel on Concorde, and definitely felt as though I got my money's worth.


Joyride and not a business decision

My purchase involved a business decision.

And yes, we are definitely OT.


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