Author Topic: Amazon founder finds Apollo engines on ocean floor  (Read 45973 times)

Offline woods170

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #20 on: 03/29/2012 06:43 AM »
My guess is they already have some sort of visual confirmation (other than sonar) that the engines are in decent shape.  He wouldn't be making press releases and spending millions of dollars to raise F-1 parts.  I always figured that falling from that height would have destroyed everything beyond recognition.
Not entirely. It all depends on the terminal velocity. Challenger's crew module hit the water at terminal velocity and was destroyed. However, pieces of the crew module were easily identified. Same will have happened to the F-1 engines. They won't be intact, but heavy components, such as the turbopumps and combustion chamber will likely be more or less intact. Don't expect to see engine bells though. They will likely be squashed and torn to shreds.

Offline collectSPACE

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #21 on: 03/29/2012 01:03 PM »
Amazon CEO's moon engine recovery plan piques NASA's, salvage expert's interest
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-032912a.html

A dot-com billionaire's announcement that he had not only located the engines that launched the first manned moon landing mission but was also planning to recover at least one of them from the ocean floor came as just as much a surprise to NASA as it did to the public.

"We read Mr. Bezos's blog post with the same excitement as I am sure others have today," Robert Jacobs, NASA's deputy associate administrator for communications, wrote on Wednesday (March 28) in an e-mail to journalists. "We have not had any formal contact with Mr. Bezos about the Apollo engines but we look forward to hearing more from his team and the recovery expedition."
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 01:04 PM by collectSPACE »

Offline collectSPACE

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #22 on: 03/29/2012 01:38 PM »
Note that the impact coordinates were not based on tracking or visual observation; but rather were calculated based on flight evaluation and post-flight trajectory reports.

Offline Mark Dave

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #23 on: 03/29/2012 03:27 PM »
Any photos from this expedition?

What about the S-IC itself being recovered? By now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed.

What about the S-IC interstage? It could be found intact and recovered.

We may see something like this for this expedition and see what condition the pieces of the rocket are in via mosaic photos and sonar.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/04/titanic/titanic-interactive


Offline robertross

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Bezos has addressed ownership:

Though they've been on the ocean floor for a long time, the engines remain the property of NASA. If we are able to recover one of these F-1 engines that started mankind on its first journey to another heavenly body, I imagine that NASA would decide to make it available to the Smithsonian for all to see. If we're able to raise more than one engine, I've asked NASA if they would consider making it available to the excellent Museum of Flight here in Seattle. (For clarity, I'll point out that no public funding will be used to attempt to raise the engines, as it's being undertaken privately.)

Amazon.com founder finds Apollo 11 moon rocket engines on ocean floor
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-032812a.html

Thanks Robert for the clarification.

Very good of Mr. Bezos for doing this.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #25 on: 03/29/2012 03:47 PM »
By now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed.

I imagine the high velocity impact with the ocean may have contributed to that...

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #26 on: 03/29/2012 04:33 PM »
By now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed.

I imagine the high velocity impact with the ocean may have contributed to that...

One poster over on NASAWatch suggested that the impact may have destroyed the stage entirely but that the engines and possibly the thrust structure, protected by the bulk of the tanks and hull (think of it as the world's biggest and most expensive 'crumple zone' protection), would have survived largely intact. 
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 04:35 PM by Ben the Space Brit »
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Offline Jester

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #27 on: 03/29/2012 04:40 PM »
By now from being on the bottom for so long it might be partly collapsed.

I imagine the high velocity impact with the ocean may have contributed to that...

One poster over on NASAWatch suggested that the impact may have destroyed the stage entirely but that the engines and possibly the thrust structure, protected by the bulk of the tanks and hull (think of it as the world's biggest and most expensive 'crumple zone' protection), would have survived largely intact. 

Does that poster understand that it most probably hit engine's first ?

Offline Jester

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #28 on: 03/29/2012 05:00 PM »
I've taken out some of my posts and moved them here:

Apollo 11/AS-506 S-IC Stage Impact Analysis
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28468.0

just so people can continue on the Amazon founder story, while I continue on the historic analysis part.

Offline Prober

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Bezos has addressed ownership:

Though they've been on the ocean floor for a long time, the engines remain the property of NASA. If we are able to recover one of these F-1 engines that started mankind on its first journey to another heavenly body, I imagine that NASA would decide to make it available to the Smithsonian for all to see. If we're able to raise more than one engine, I've asked NASA if they would consider making it available to the excellent Museum of Flight here in Seattle. (For clarity, I'll point out that no public funding will be used to attempt to raise the engines, as it's being undertaken privately.)

Amazon.com founder finds Apollo 11 moon rocket engines on ocean floor
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-032812a.html

Thanks Robert for the clarification.

Very good of Mr. Bezos for doing this.

This is a great direction for Mr. Bezos.  He should be rewarded.  Make a pre-agreement with NASA if he gets say 5 engines he can keep one.  Its a fair deal.

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Offline Blackstar

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Make a pre-agreement with NASA if he gets say 5 engines he can keep one.  Its a fair deal.

He's a rich guy, so he's got smart lawyers. Those smart lawyers will hire a maritime salvage expert to advise them. Then they'll strike a deal. It will say something like at no time will Bezos "own" any of the recovered artifacts (and he cannot sell them), but the government will allow him to recover them and possibly restore them provided that they are donated to certain museums with oversight by designated experts (most likely Smithsonian curators). This is essentially what Curt Newport had to do with Grissom's capsule.

In reality, this shouldn't be that hard for the lawyers to work out. Newport regularly conducted salvage of government property under contract, so he was well-versed in all of that. But Bezos will have a legal team and they'll figure it out and come to an agreement.

Offline Paul Adams

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #31 on: 03/29/2012 06:10 PM »
As an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?

It's all in the data.

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #32 on: 03/29/2012 06:13 PM »
As an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?


1) Probably. 2) Almost surely. That was one of the seriously considered options for the first stage of SLS.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #33 on: 03/29/2012 06:18 PM »
As an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?



There was a two-part series in Spaceflight magazine about a year ago that dealt with the remaining F-1s. The author did some great work tracking down the locations of all the remaining F-1s. I think to answer your question, there are many test-fired F-1s in museums, and there are probably quite a few complete F-1s, although lacking the external insulation. I believe (going from memory here) that there were something like 30 complete engines left over at the end of the Apollo program, and some of them went straight into preserved storage in case the program was re-started.

Offline Paul Adams

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #34 on: 03/29/2012 06:20 PM »
As an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?


1) Probably. 2) Almost surely. That was one of the seriously considered options for the first stage of SLS.

Interesting, I would like to see one that has actually be fired, and have been wondering just how complete the engines on display actually are.

Thanks,

Paul
It's all in the data.

Offline Paul Adams

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #35 on: 03/29/2012 06:21 PM »
As an aside, are there any F1 engines that have been test fired in museums anywhere, or are there any 100% complete F1 engines anywhere?



There was a two-part series in Spaceflight magazine about a year ago that dealt with the remaining F-1s. The author did some great work tracking down the locations of all the remaining F-1s. I think to answer your question, there are many test-fired F-1s in museums, and there are probably quite a few complete F-1s, although lacking the external insulation. I believe (going from memory here) that there were something like 30 complete engines left over at the end of the Apollo program, and some of them went straight into preserved storage in case the program was re-started.

Ditto: Interesting, I would like to see one that has actually be fired, and have been wondering just how complete the engines on display actually are.

Thanks,

Paul
It's all in the data.

Offline Jim

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #36 on: 03/29/2012 07:22 PM »

Ditto: Interesting, I would like to see one that has actually be fired,

Most of the ones on display are complete and have been acceptance fired.  Can't really tell the difference at this time.  Fired ones may have some carbon and discoloration, but time has added discoloration too.
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 07:25 PM by Jim »

Offline robertross

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #37 on: 03/29/2012 08:38 PM »
If Mr Bezos does manage to bring up more than one, I hope the scenario doesn't play out like it did with the awarding of the shuttles to their new retirement homes.
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Offline rdale

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #38 on: 03/29/2012 09:05 PM »
With so many F-1's out there, I can't see that being an issue.

Offline Mark Dave

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Re: Amazon founder finds Apollo 11 engines on ocean floor
« Reply #39 on: 03/29/2012 09:46 PM »
I think it would be awesome to see an F-1, one of the non flown engines that is the real thing, be fired up for one test to show people just how powerful they are. :)  Film and photos don't do justice to the actual experience of feeling it. I've heard of how powerful they are, but seeing one  tested face to face would be cool.

I recall on another thread someone told me that part of a Delta or titan first stage was recovered intact from the ocean.  This mentioned to me after asking about the S-IC ocean impact.

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