Author Topic: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020  (Read 58658 times)

Offline Phillip Clark

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Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« on: 09/23/2011 07:25 AM »
Some discussions which I started on the Tiangong 1 thread were mis-interpreted as relating to Tianging 1 rather than the future module space station which the Chinese are planning, so I am starting a new thread here in the hope of preventing such confusion.

We all know by now that around 2020 the Chinese hope to start the construction of a modular space station, which could be their equivalent of Mir.

We know that there will be a core module and at least two permanent/long-term modules of a similar size - around 20-25 tonnes - launched by the CZ-5 vehicle.

A Shenzhou is shown at the front longitudinal port, having taken three people (I assume) to the station.   At the back there is a cargo freighter, derived from the Tiangong module.

This configuration appears in both still images like the one which I am attaching and videos showing the assembly of the station.

The front of the core module appears to have five docking ports.   The front longitudinal one is occupied by a Shenzhou - other than when a new module does the preliminary docking - and the two radial ports are occupied by the plug-on modules.   What about the zenith and nadir ports?   I have never seen any depictions of these being occupied by either a Shenzhou or a plug-on module.

On Mir the standard practive was to vacate the rear longitudinal port to allow a new Soyuz crew to dock there and when the older crew and Soyuz returned to Earth the new Soyuz would move to the front port, allowing the rear port to be used once more by Progress cargo freighters.   (Pause: yes, I know that there were exceptions, but I am talking in overall terms here.)

Therefore it would be reasonable that if the Chinese station were to be permanently occupied like Mir a used Tiangong-class module would be discarded from the rear port and the new Shenzhou docked there, and be relocated after the original crew returns to Earth.   If the Chinese go for six months residencies then one Tiangong cargo freighter should be enough to keep them supplied.

So, why the zenith and nadir docking ports at the front of the core module?   Maybe one could be used as an EVA hatch - but then again the Shenzhou orbital module could be used the same way if the Chinese want to do that.   Maybe the Chinese are keeping open the option of having four radial plug-on modules, as Mir had?

Of course, in the next nine years the design of this station will surely changeand these questions will be answered.

« Last Edit: 09/23/2011 05:47 PM by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline Chandonn

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Re: The Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #1 on: 09/23/2011 11:19 AM »
I would suggest specifying the "Chinese" space station in the title.  We already have a modular space station which should be in orbit in 2020, for example.  Also, Bieglow may have a modular space station in orbit by then, and so on...
« Last Edit: 09/23/2011 11:20 AM by Chandonn »

Offline lucspace

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Re: The Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #2 on: 09/23/2011 01:18 PM »
There are several depictions of all docking ports occupied:


Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: The Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #3 on: 09/23/2011 02:21 PM »
I would suggest specifying the "Chinese" space station in the title.  We already have a modular space station which should be in orbit in 2020, for example.  Also, Bieglow may have a modular space station in orbit by then, and so on...

Since this section is for Chinese launches and space programmes I thought people would take it for granted that I meant a Chinese module space station.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: The Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #4 on: 09/23/2011 02:24 PM »
There are several depictions of all docking ports occupied:

Thank you for posting these pictures.

I had seen the display picture before, but since a similar display showed a Shenzhou with solar panels docked at the smaller module of Tiangong 1, I wonder about their accuracy.

I had not seen to second picture before at all.

Offline Chandonn

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Re: The Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #5 on: 09/23/2011 03:41 PM »
Sorry, when I pull up "unread items" on the mobile site it doesn't list the thread location.  $
Hence my suggestion.
« Last Edit: 09/23/2011 03:42 PM by Chandonn »

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: The Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #6 on: 09/23/2011 04:39 PM »
Deviating slightly from the title (is there a way to amend the title to "The Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020" to avoid confusion?), what can we look forward to in the Chinese programme?

Since Tiangong 1 will be hosting two crews next year then I assume that its operating lifetime wll be around 12-18 months.   If the real future role of Tiangong is to to be a cargo freighter then you don't need multi-year operating times, as we saw with Salyuts 6/7.   Six-nine months for each freighter would be reasonable, depending upon the stay times of the crews on te modular station.

On this basis, I would assume that Tiangongs 2 and 3 will be very much like Tiangong 1, launched at intervals of around 2-3 years.   Maybe extending the in-orbit stay of the crews, varying experiments, gaining more EVA experience perhaps.

What would be nice - and it would need a redesign of Tiangong as we see it now - would be for Tiangong 3 to have a second docking port and then host a test flight of the cargo freighter version while there's a crew on board.

One element of a space station programme does seem to be missing from the Chinese discussions.   From what has been published the Chinese plan to go from the Tiangong-based spacelab to the modular space station, without having a Salyut 6/7 equivalent.   This is surprising since the CZ-5 will be available for the launch of such a 20-25 tonnes station from te middle of this decade.

Of course, it is possible that the Chinese are planning such a mission after Tiangong 3 but they just aren't talking about it yet.

Offline Zero-G

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #7 on: 09/23/2011 08:05 PM »
AFAIK, Tiangong-3 is planned to be redesigned to have two docking ports. (I have read this somewhere, but forgot where I read it. Sorry.)
"I still don't understand who I am: the first human or the last dog in space." - Yuri Gagarin

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #8 on: 09/28/2011 02:44 PM »
I have just come across the attached illustration at the following web site:

http://english.people.com.cn/102775/202988/index.html

This shows a Shenzhou at both the front and rear longitudinal ports of the core module, one apparently at the nadir port, a Tiangong (cargo freighter variant?) and the zenith port and the two experiment modules, approximately the same size as the core module.

I don't think I have seen this specific configuration before.   Of course, if we consider the three large modules (core and two experiment modules) as fixed, then the Shenzhous and Tiangongs can go anywhere!

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #9 on: 09/28/2011 04:00 PM »
@ Phillip Clark,

Depending on the accuracy of this illustration, TG-3's experimental modules look like their TG-1 heritage designs (OML at least).  That picture seems to have a single SZ crew ferry and two SZ cargo ships (one on core aft and one on node nadir).

Of course, a lot can change in a decade.
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Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #10 on: 09/28/2011 04:14 PM »
@ Phillip Clark,

Depending on the accuracy of this illustration, TG-3's experimental modules look like their TG-1 heritage designs (OML at least).  That picture seems to have a single SZ crew ferry and two SZ cargo ships (one on core aft and one on node nadir).
Of course, a lot can change in a decade.

I have always considered the experimental modules to be similar to Tiangong 1 but with a longer narrow-diameter section and probably with the propulsion system relocated to the rear of the large diameter section.   Maybe they are simply variants of the core module's design?   

Why have a cargo version of Shenzhou when Tiangong will do the job?   I am wondering whether the picture that I posted is primarily a fiction and that the original pictures of the modular space station from 2007-2008 are the accurate ones.

Offline lucspace

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #11 on: 01/03/2012 06:02 AM »
The Novosti Kosmonavtiki forum shows a new/alternative? design for the large space station: http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8751&start=645

More images at: http://www.mychinanet.com/newcarwen/archive/11977.aspx

Offline space_dreamer

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #12 on: 01/03/2012 10:06 AM »
Could the spare ports be for experimental Luna landers?

Or a space tug

The potential of the Chinese space program over the next few decades is incredible = total goverment control combined with a GDP bigger than America and growing.

http://www.economist.com/node/21542155

It's estimated that China's GDP will reach the US level by 2017 so by the time this modular space station is finished in 2020 China will be comfortably the richest country in the world. Nasa has put off the US return to the moon until the end of the 2020s. By that time, will the US be able to catch up with China who plan to be on the moon by 2025?

Offline space_dreamer

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Offline Space Pete

Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #14 on: 01/03/2012 10:33 AM »
That's a bit of a beast of a station! :o
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Offline hal9000

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #15 on: 01/04/2012 11:50 AM »
A considerable amount of work has gone into these images.  Is there any associated text to describe the origin of the images?

And I'm intrigued by the 'lego'-like wings on what appears to be an airlock module (3rd from last image) - any ideas as to what they are?  Radiators?

Offline snowhole

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #16 on: 01/05/2012 12:01 AM »
A considerable amount of work has gone into these images.  Is there any associated text to describe the origin of the images?

And I'm intrigued by the 'lego'-like wings on what appears to be an airlock module (3rd from last image) - any ideas as to what they are?  Radiators?

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1305670-1-1.html

Fan made.

Offline Jason1701

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #17 on: 01/05/2012 12:31 AM »
A considerable amount of work has gone into these images.  Is there any associated text to describe the origin of the images?

And I'm intrigued by the 'lego'-like wings on what appears to be an airlock module (3rd from last image) - any ideas as to what they are?  Radiators?

http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1305670-1-1.html

Fan made.

So that's not what the station will really be?

Offline MikeMelga

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #18 on: 01/05/2012 12:35 AM »
Chinese don't invent things. They copy it and make it from cheap materials. That station is a copy from old Russian technology. Although being an European, I think the US can top the Chinese easily just by constantly developing new tech AND keeping it a secret. This advice serves for space exploration and for your crappy cars.

Offline Nascent Ascent

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #19 on: 01/05/2012 12:38 AM »
Chinese don't invent things. They copy it and make it from cheap materials. That station is a copy from old Russian technology. Although being an European, I think the US can top the Chinese easily just by constantly developing new tech AND keeping it a secret. This advice serves for space exploration and for your crappy cars.

That is a viable strategy and it has been proven to work (i.e. Microsoft).  The real advantage for the Chinese is their long-term planning and constancy.
“Why should we send people into space when we have kids in the U.S. that can’t read”. - Barack Obama

Offline hal9000

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #20 on: 01/06/2012 09:55 AM »
I'm still unsure if the alternative design is an 'official' alternative, or just an enthusiasts idea.  Anyone have a view?

Offline apace

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #21 on: 01/06/2012 10:22 AM »
Chinese don't invent things. They copy it and make it from cheap materials. That station is a copy from old Russian technology. Although being an European, I think the US can top the Chinese easily just by constantly developing new tech AND keeping it a secret. This advice serves for space exploration and for your crappy cars.

You have no idea what's going on in China currently. You're phrase is full of wrong estimates. Simply check their university output of new engineers or their new high mark of new patents and you will see in which direction the Chinese economy is going.

Offline MikeMelga

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #22 on: 01/09/2012 12:16 AM »
Chinese don't invent things. They copy it and make it from cheap materials. That station is a copy from old Russian technology. Although being an European, I think the US can top the Chinese easily just by constantly developing new tech AND keeping it a secret. This advice serves for space exploration and for your crappy cars.

You have no idea what's going on in China currently. You're phrase is full of wrong estimates. Simply check their university output of new engineers or their new high mark of new patents and you will see in which direction the Chinese economy is going.
Remember that China is not Hong Kong or Shanghai. It is a vast country where most people worked on farms 10 years ago.

All I see is tech copied from Russians. They have a lot of money, they are starting to outsource tech outside (I was asked to develop a cheap auto focus lenses 2y ago) but the general feeling is that they have too much cash in hand to bother developing on their own. I've worked with Chinese engineers and believe me that they have a very long way to go.

One of the worst thing about Chinese is that they are not assertive. You ask a Yes or No question and the guy starts talking about something else. That is so profound that even most their languages don't have past/present/future conjugation of verbs. I could give you examples all night, but the bottom line is that their peculiar way of thinking does not make a good engineer.
I had several conversations with Chinese engineers and it was very frustrating. Oh, and one of them tried to sell me an orphan, but that's another thing about them: money 1st, money 1st, money 1st.

Offline manboy

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #23 on: 03/09/2012 09:47 AM »
Here's some promotional stuff.
« Last Edit: 03/09/2012 09:48 AM by manboy »
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Offline manboy

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #24 on: 03/09/2012 09:51 AM »
Here's some engineering type models from the first half of last year. You can see some type of robotic arm on the Core Module and it looks like there's an airlock on Lab Module 1.
« Last Edit: 03/09/2012 10:16 AM by manboy »
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Offline ChileVerde

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Offline JT355

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #26 on: 06/26/2012 08:10 AM »
Here are some new graphics for the 2020 space station. Fast forward to 1:30 in the video below:


Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #27 on: 06/26/2012 09:23 AM »
All the material I have seen appears to indicate that there will be only two modules docked gto the core, but there appear to be four lateral docking ports.  Is there any suggestion that they will be occupied at some stage?  It would push the final mass from 60 tonnes to ~100, more with Shenzhou and the supply craft attached
« Last Edit: 06/26/2012 09:42 AM by Dalhousie »
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Offline Bob Shaw

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #28 on: 06/26/2012 09:47 AM »
In which country were rockets invented? Where were man-carrying rockets first described?

Go on, guess!

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #29 on: 06/26/2012 12:16 PM »
Whilst I started this thread with 2020 being the approximate date for China's modular space station, it isn't clear whether 2020 is the target date for the main core module to be launched, followed by the two main plug-on modules or whether 2020 is the target date for all three modules to have been launched and be operating.

Does anyone who can read original Chinese material clarify this?   Of course, eight years into the future, probably the Chinese planners themselves do not know!

Offline yaohua2000

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #30 on: 06/26/2012 08:26 PM »
Whilst I started this thread with 2020 being the approximate date for China's modular space station, it isn't clear whether 2020 is the target date for the main core module to be launched, followed by the two main plug-on modules or whether 2020 is the target date for all three modules to have been launched and be operating.

Does anyone who can read original Chinese material clarify this?   Of course, eight years into the future, probably the Chinese planners themselves do not know!

The original announced completion year was 2020–2022. I think the core module should be launched some time around 2018. And I think the station weren't be end up only 60 tons. There are two unused docking ports, other "friendly" countries may contribute their own modules to the station as well.

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #31 on: 06/26/2012 08:51 PM »
Whilst I started this thread with 2020 being the approximate date for China's modular space station, it isn't clear whether 2020 is the target date for the main core module to be launched, followed by the two main plug-on modules or whether 2020 is the target date for all three modules to have been launched and be operating.

Does anyone who can read original Chinese material clarify this?   Of course, eight years into the future, probably the Chinese planners themselves do not know!

The original announced completion year was 2020–2022. I think the core module should be launched some time around 2018. And I think the station weren't be end up only 60 tons. There are two unused docking ports, other "friendly" countries may contribute their own modules to the station as well.

Won't Tiangong-3 serve as the core module?
  I'm taking my info from Wikipedia.  Tiangong-3 will have the size and
mass of each of the modules of the planned Modular Chinese Space Station. And according to Wikipedia, Tiangong-3 will be launched
around 2015. 
So for at least five years it appears, Tiangong-3 will orbit without additional modules.
Leaves me wondering what the Chinese manned psace program plans to
do between 2015 and 2020?
Send an upgraded Shenzhou to circle the Moon?
Send one to a NEO asteroid?

Offline BrightLight

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #32 on: 06/26/2012 08:57 PM »
Just looking at the pictures of the station with the three modules, it looks like it is under powered, not enough solar panels.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #33 on: 06/26/2012 09:38 PM »
How much power is required depends on the experiments planned, some are more power hungry than others. 

Basic life support isn't that demanding, about 1 kw per person, with some reycling of oxygen and water.  To support three people you only need about a 7 kW array

Also remember the steady improvments in solar panel efficiency, now over 30% (over 40% in the lab). I don't know what efficiency those on Mir were but given the construction period I would guess about 15%
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Offline WellingtonEast

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #34 on: 06/27/2012 12:22 AM »
I think the unknown here is launcher development.

The ISS was hobbled by utilising the Space Shuttle to launch many of its components.

I think the chinese will aim for a larger station (by volume) with less modules launched by larger rockets.



Offline Jim

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #35 on: 06/27/2012 01:36 AM »
I think the unknown here is launcher development.

The ISS was hobbled by utilising the Space Shuttle to launch many of its components.

I think the chinese will aim for a larger station (by volume) with less modules launched by larger rockets.

Fallacy

It wasn't the size of the shuttle that hobbled the ISS, it was that it was the only launcher.

ISS does not need more volume, nor did it need larger launchers

Offline WellingtonEast

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #36 on: 06/27/2012 03:36 AM »
Maybe the only launcher from USA perspective - but I thought the Russian Proton had a marginally larger capacity and was not constrained by the Cargo Bay size.

After all it launched some ISS components.

Assembly on ground in larger volume modules would have been cheaper than multiple modules which means multiple projects / launches and would have enabled the ISS to be completed sooner.

Maybe this way the ISS Centrifuge Accommodations Module would have made it to space.

As I said - it will be interesting to see the Chinese strategy unfold.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #37 on: 06/27/2012 07:33 AM »
Perhaps Tiangong 3 will be prepresentative of the size, mass of the modular station's core module, but I would expect this to be more akin to a "Salyut 6/7" station rather than a "Mir" core module.

This would mean that the Chinese could get basic experience with Tiangong 1 and Tiangong 2 (using a modificed TG 1 back-up module?), with Tiangong 3 allowing longer piloted missions with the cargo variant of Tiangong annually (?) taking supplies to the station.

Remember that the schedule for Tiangong 3 (in particular) and the modular station are dependent upon the early success of the CZ-5 class launch vehicles.   Would the Chinese put Tiangong 3 on the very first CZ-5?

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #38 on: 06/27/2012 09:26 AM »
Such an approach would make sense to me.  It would also allow them to perfect multiple dockings and resupply.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

Offline Jim

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #39 on: 06/27/2012 01:45 PM »
Assembly on ground in larger volume modules would have been cheaper than multiple modules which means multiple projects / launches and would have enabled the ISS to be completed sooner.

Unsubstantiated and basically wrong.  There is no data to support your claim.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #40 on: 06/27/2012 02:39 PM »
Assembly on ground in larger volume modules would have been cheaper than multiple modules which means multiple projects / launches and would have enabled the ISS to be completed sooner.
Unsubstantiated and basically wrong.  There is no data to support your claim.

Out of curiosity, do actual data exist which definitively support one point-of-view over the other?

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #41 on: 09/03/2012 07:02 AM »
From page 86 of the August 2012 ESA Bulletin

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/multimedia/publications/ESA-Bulletin-151/offline/download.pdf

CREW TRANSPORTATION

International Berthing and Docking Mechanism (IBDM) IBDM dynamic testing was completed at SIRRIS in Leuven, Belgium. The results confirmed the feasibility of a design compatible with both NASA and Russian designs.

International Docking System Standard (IDSS)

Docking standardisation discussions continued with representatives of the Chinese Manned Space Engineering Office (CMSEO) at ESTEC in May. The Chinese have shown interest in discussing possible adaptations of their docking system to an international standard and to the joint definition of a new large-diameter mechanism, capable (like the IBDM) of docking and berthing, for the permanent connection of major modules of their Space Station. The exchanges on the development of docking systems with the Chinese showed that also China identified the need for a docking system that could work for space vehicles of various masses and deliver moderate impact loads.

An International Docking Systems Workshop at ESTEC in May involved about 30 experts (from USA, Europe, Canada, Russia, China and Japan), bringing together for the first time the IDSS partners from the ISS countries and new participants, offering an opportunity to enlarge the docking standardisation discussions to a new set of international partners (for example, China).

The need for a standard docking interface was reconfirmed and the design of ESA’s IBDM system appeared as a very promising candidate for such a standard. ESA was asked to organise a follow-up workshop at the IAF Conference in October. Discussions with NASA and the Canadian Space Agency looked at the possible joint development of a new docking system based on the IBDM.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline manboy

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #42 on: 09/03/2012 03:00 PM »
The need for a standard docking interface was reconfirmed and the design of ESA’s IBDM system appeared as a very promising candidate for such a standard...Discussions with NASA and the Canadian Space Agency looked at the possible joint development of a new docking system based on the IBDM.
Sounds like ESA is trying to give themselves much more credit than they deserve. Their "International Berthing Docking Mechanism" (IBDM) is simply an implementation of the International Docking System Standard (IDSS).
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline cheesybagel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #43 on: 09/04/2012 07:11 PM »
All I see is tech copied from Russians. They have a lot of money, they are starting to outsource tech outside (I was asked to develop a cheap auto focus lenses 2y ago) but the general feeling is that they have too much cash in hand to bother developing on their own. I've worked with Chinese engineers and believe me that they have a very long way to go.

The Chinese have had LOX/LH2 upper stage engines for years now. The Russians still do not even though they developed one for the Indians which is supposed to be used in Angara.

If it is cheaper to buy a license rather than doing all the R&D from scratch why bother? Their technological gap is so wide that currently this is the best way of proceeding. Eventually they will start doing more things on their own.

Talk about cultural differences blocking R&D development are just that: talk. I have heard the same thing applied to Japan and South Korea. They have been proven wrong time and again. China has enough skilled people and resources to pull it off. They import a lot of tech, but so did Russia between WWI and WWII. They still managed to put Sputnik, Gagarin and Leonov in space.


Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #44 on: 09/07/2012 08:38 PM »
I think the unknown here is launcher development.

The ISS was hobbled by utilising the Space Shuttle to launch many of its components.

I think the chinese will aim for a larger station (by volume) with less modules launched by larger rockets.

Fallacy

It wasn't the size of the shuttle that hobbled the ISS, it was that it was the only launcher.

ISS does not need more volume, nor did it need larger launchers

Jim, I think he is thinking Skylab as the method of assembling a station. The Saturn V was able to put very large and very heavy components into orbit. If the equivillant of Skylab was to be assembled in orbit by shuttle, how many shuttle flights and EVAs would it have required? Whatever your answer is, I'm sure it would have required more flights and EVA time, costing more, while increasing risk.

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #45 on: 09/09/2012 09:38 AM »
Won't Tiangong-3 serve as the core module?
  I'm taking my info from Wikipedia.  Tiangong-3 will have the size and
mass of each of the modules of the planned Modular Chinese Space Station. And according to Wikipedia, Tiangong-3 will be launched
around 2015. 
So for at least five years it appears, Tiangong-3 will orbit without additional modules.
Leaves me wondering what the Chinese manned psace program plans to
do between 2015 and 2020?
Send an upgraded Shenzhou to circle the Moon?
Send one to a NEO asteroid?

Tiangong-3 will be launched around 2015,while core module of chinese  future space station will be launched around 2018~2020
there isn't  Human mission to Moon or NEO ,Cargo spacecraft will be docked with Tiangong-3

Offline tonyq

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #46 on: 10/23/2012 01:20 PM »
There are some interesting statements about the Chinese Space Station plans in this blog/report by Clive Simpson, who was previously editor of 'Spaceflight'.

http://simcomm.blogspot.com/

Some of these comments were not previously know to me, and I don't think they had been explicitly stated by China:-

- The Chinese space station is expected to be completed and fully operational around 2020.

- The Space Station will conduct long-term man-tended operations with the nominal status of three crew who will alternate every half year

- The construction phase would see intermittent visits and stays depending on mission requirements and that some EVAs would be performed

- There will also be a cargo re-supply ship sent up to the orbiting complex between one and two times a year
« Last Edit: 10/23/2012 02:18 PM by tonyq »

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #47 on: 11/30/2012 10:44 AM »
http://www.stdaily.com/stdaily/content/2012-11/30/content_546525.htm
Quote
论坛上,中国载人航天工程总师周建平介绍了空间站建设总体构想:在轨运营10年以上,基本构型为T字型,由3个22吨级舱段组成,核心舱居中,实验舱Ⅰ和实验舱Ⅱ分别连接于两侧。核心舱前端设两个对接口,接纳载人飞船对接和停靠;后端设后向对接口,作为货运飞船补给端口。站上设气闸舱用于航天员出舱,配置大小两个机械臂用于辅助对接、补给、出舱和科学实验。在空间站运营阶段,还将发射第二个核心舱进行前向对接,最终整站形成十字构型,并具备进一步的舱段扩展能力。
some statements of future modular space station circa 2020:
the space station will have two mechanical arms
baseline configuration: core module + experiment module 1 + experiment module 2
final configuration: core module + experiment module 1 + experiment module 2 + core module 2 (china version MIR?)



Offline Zero-G

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #48 on: 12/12/2012 02:19 PM »
This mockup of a "Mechanical Arm for Space Station" was exhibited at the China Airshow 2012 in Zhuhai in November:
(Sorry for the low quality of the pic of the artwork. It's just a cutout from the other picture, since I did not take a separate shot of the artwork.)
« Last Edit: 12/12/2012 10:22 PM by Zero-G »
"I still don't understand who I am: the first human or the last dog in space." - Yuri Gagarin

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Offline ChileVerde

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #50 on: 03/02/2013 03:02 PM »
From Xinhua, China's space station will be energy-efficient: lead designer.

That notes,

Quote
The green technologies to be applied in the station will raise its recycling rate and reduce its reliance on input from the ground.

For example, waste water and urine will be used to extract oxygen, and carbon dioxide and other human waste will also be recycled, Zhou said.

Which, interpreted optimistically, sounds like working in the direction of a DSH ECLSS.
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #51 on: 05/29/2013 01:12 AM »
kktt have scanned the newest paper of china space station,here is url:
http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/static/121264211201342864744355/

photos:

baseline configuration(up to 90mt):
1 core module,experiment module 1,experiment module 2,big mechanical arm&small mechanical arm

extended configuration(up to 180mt):
2 core module,experiment module 1,experiment module 2,big mechanical arm&small mechanical arm,experiment module 3,experiment module 4, exposed facility 1、2、3、4

cargo spacecraft:
mass: up to 13.5mt
upload: up to 6.5mt
module design : pressurized,semi-pressurized,unpressurized configuration, upload cargo、suppuly、 propellant,  and solar wing, exposed facility, small station module ...




« Last Edit: 05/29/2013 07:43 AM by Lsquirrel »

Offline manboy

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #52 on: 05/29/2013 02:56 AM »
What does this say?
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #53 on: 05/29/2013 02:57 AM »
What does this say?

That's the model of the future Chinese cargo supply spacecraft.  :)
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline baldusi

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #54 on: 05/29/2013 02:29 PM »
I don't speak Chinese, but I see no radiators there. Are this notional, an artist impression or what exactly?

Offline manboy

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #55 on: 05/29/2013 05:18 PM »
What does this say?

That's the model of the future Chinese cargo supply spacecraft.  :)
But specifically what does the text say?

EDIT: I did some research and the first four characters (货运飞船) say "cargo ship". I wonder what the last two say.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2013 11:43 PM by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Kryten

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #56 on: 05/29/2013 05:48 PM »
I don't speak Chinese, but I see no radiators there. Are this notional, an artist impression or what exactly?
The first image has radiators, and some of the 'solar panels' on the others appear to be mostly the same size, shape and location as those radiators; looks like they've just been translated from design to CGI incorrectly, like those images of Tiangong being docked with at the wrong end.
« Last Edit: 05/29/2013 05:48 PM by Kryten »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #57 on: 06/10/2013 08:09 AM »
Thanks to Zero-G for pointing this out in the Shenzhou 10 thread. Click on the second link from right (highlighted in blue in the attached image) to see a 3D view of the Chinese Modular Space Station.

http://news.qq.com/zt2013/shen10flash/3D.htm

Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline newpylong

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #58 on: 06/10/2013 06:08 PM »
Assembly on ground in larger volume modules would have been cheaper than multiple modules which means multiple projects / launches and would have enabled the ISS to be completed sooner.

Unsubstantiated and basically wrong.  There is no data to support your claim.

There is no data to prove him wrong either. Common sense says that if two of anything can been combined into 1, it is faster and more economical.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2013 06:22 PM by newpylong »

Offline Star One

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #59 on: 06/11/2013 04:33 PM »
There is a graphic of this in the BBC article covering this launch, how good or bad is the representation here?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22843318


Offline ChileVerde

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #60 on: 06/12/2013 01:15 PM »
A little on the division of labor for the space station project.  No surprise, but a reasonably well-placed source.

Quote

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1258761/smooth-launch-shenzhou-x-crew-chinas-longest-manned-space-mission

Smooth launch for Shenzhou X crew on China's longest manned space mission
Stephen Chen at Jiuquan Satellite Launch Centre, Inner Mongolia
Wednesday, 12 June, 2013 [Updated: 1:55PM]

<snip>

But the future of China's largest space launch centre [Jiuquan] is under a cloud, because it will soon be eclipsed by an even bigger one in Wenchang , Hainan , which is nearing completion.

Lu Jinron, the chief engineer at Jiuquan, said Wenchang would definitely have an impact on Jiuquan. Launches for the construction of a space laboratory would still be carried out by Jiuquan, but Wenchang would take over the heavy lifting job for China's ambitious space station project, scheduled for completion by 2020, he said.

"Jiuquan will still be responsible for all manned launches," he said. "We have more experience. We also have sunnier weather. We can provide absolute safety to the astronauts."
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline Satori

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #61 on: 06/13/2013 08:04 AM »
I've never seen this one before. Note the lunar exploration vehicle docked to the station on the lower left corner.

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #62 on: 06/13/2013 09:14 AM »
I've never seen this one before. Note the lunar exploration vehicle docked to the station on the lower left corner.

it's fans CG,orginal post at here:
http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-1411514-1-1.html

Offline Liss

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #63 on: 06/19/2013 10:43 AM »
EDIT: I did some research and the first four characters (货运飞船) say "cargo ship". I wonder what the last two say.
Gouxing -- configuration.

Offline Guanglin_Galaxy

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Chinese Space Station Project Overall Vision (ZHOU JP)
« Reply #64 on: 06/29/2013 03:23 AM »
The latest article. All in Chinese but the abstract.
« Last Edit: 06/29/2013 05:35 AM by Guanglin_Galaxy »

Offline Guanglin_Galaxy

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The English version translation of the figures (NOT OFFICIAL!)
« Reply #65 on: 06/29/2013 03:46 AM »
The English version of the figures translated by myself, NOT OFFICIAL.
« Last Edit: 06/29/2013 05:36 AM by Guanglin_Galaxy »

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #66 on: 09/17/2013 01:59 PM »
a official video about china future space station

Offline Satori

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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #68 on: 09/19/2013 06:40 AM »
I thought these paragraphs were interesting:

Quote
Zhou Jianping, chief designer of China's manned space program, said the country will be able to rendezvous with other countries' spacecraft at the space station. China is also exploring the possibility of carrying out a joint rescue operation, according to Zhou.
...
If China starts taking foreign astronauts to outer space, we would like to be the first candidate," said Ahmed Bilal, chairman of the Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission. We also want to cooperate with China in remote sensing technology and educating the public about space."

Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #69 on: 09/19/2013 06:58 AM »
I noted that the animations for Tiangong 2 suggesting that refuelling might come along while the space lab is unmanned, thus meaning that - like Tiangong 1 - only one docking port is required on the lab.   So, Tiangong 2 will not be based upon the modular station's core module or an experimental module.

Also it was specifically said that the module station should be assembled by 2020, suggesting that launches might take place in the 2018-2019 timescale.   Will a crew be launched before the automatic dockings of the two experiment modules?   I would expect that the first module will docking on the front longitudinal port and then be relocated to a side port shortly before the second module is launched: that way the station remains symmetrical for most of the time.

Finally, the Chinese are clearly thinking of the option of further expanding the station after the initial operations by docking a second core module and further experiment modules.   All very interesting to me.

Offline hal9000

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #70 on: 09/19/2013 09:19 AM »
At about 7:19 on the video we see the attached view.

Looks similar to a Mir/Salyut class core module.   I don't think we see enough of it to tell if there is a Shenzhou already docked.

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #71 on: 09/19/2013 09:38 AM »
China's space station to open for foreign peers

I thought this comment was interesting:

"Othman said she is convinced that China will promote space exploration for all mankind with its resolve and huge investment.

I think China can lead in the international community's exploration of space. It has the political will to expand its manned space endeavors, and based on that will, China has ensured and set aside enough resources."



I've never seen this one before. Note the lunar exploration vehicle docked to the station on the lower left corner.


Has anyone seen any recent illustrations with a Lunar Lander docked to the ISS?
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline Satori

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #72 on: 09/19/2013 10:07 AM »
I noted that the animations for Tiangong 2 suggesting that refuelling might come along while the space lab is unmanned, thus meaning that - like Tiangong 1 - only one docking port is required on the lab.   So, Tiangong 2 will not be based upon the modular station's core module or an experimental module.


But why to develop a second generation station with only a docking port? The Shenzhou has a limited cargo capacity and even if TG-2 is launched with a major cargo of supplies on board, the objectives of the following manned missions would be very limited in terms of prolonged presences in orbit in advance of the modular station.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #73 on: 09/19/2013 05:20 PM »
1-I thought this comment was interesting:

"Othman said she is convinced that China will promote space exploration for all mankind with its resolve and huge investment.

I think China can lead in the international community's exploration of space. It has the political will to expand its manned space endeavors, and based on that will, China has ensured and set aside enough resources."


2-Has anyone seen any recent illustrations with a Lunar Lander docked to the ISS?


1-That reads like a standard UN bureaucrat not saying anything substantive.

China is going to have difficulty with signing up international partners because many countries are scared of them. Will they get South Korea? Japan? Vietnam? No. All their neighbors are concerned about China's regional ambitions. I doubt they will get the Indians, but for more complex reasons.

Then again, the United States' biggest problem with signing up international partners is that the U.S. is unreliable.

2-Did you mean ISS or the Chinese station? Any discussions of a U.S. return to the Moon bypass the ISS. It's in the wrong orbit.

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #74 on: 09/19/2013 06:05 PM »
1-I thought this comment was interesting:

"Othman said she is convinced that China will promote space exploration for all mankind with its resolve and huge investment.

I think China can lead in the international community's exploration of space. It has the political will to expand its manned space endeavors, and based on that will, China has ensured and set aside enough resources."


2-Has anyone seen any recent illustrations with a Lunar Lander docked to the ISS?


1-That reads like a standard UN bureaucrat not saying anything substantive.

China is going to have difficulty with signing up international partners because many countries are scared of them. Will they get South Korea? Japan? Vietnam? No. All their neighbors are concerned about China's regional ambitions. I doubt they will get the Indians, but for more complex reasons.

Then again, the United States' biggest problem with signing up international partners is that the U.S. is unreliable.

2-Did you mean ISS or the Chinese station? Any discussions of a U.S. return to the Moon bypass the ISS. It's in the wrong orbit.

AFAIK if they are getting foreign astronauts on their station it will be more likely from Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Venezuela, some African nations etc.
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline baldusi

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #75 on: 09/19/2013 06:10 PM »
1-I thought this comment was interesting:

"Othman said she is convinced that China will promote space exploration for all mankind with its resolve and huge investment.

I think China can lead in the international community's exploration of space. It has the political will to expand its manned space endeavors, and based on that will, China has ensured and set aside enough resources."


2-Has anyone seen any recent illustrations with a Lunar Lander docked to the ISS?


1-That reads like a standard UN bureaucrat not saying anything substantive.

China is going to have difficulty with signing up international partners because many countries are scared of them. Will they get South Korea? Japan? Vietnam? No. All their neighbors are concerned about China's regional ambitions. I doubt they will get the Indians, but for more complex reasons.

Then again, the United States' biggest problem with signing up international partners is that the U.S. is unreliable.

2-Did you mean ISS or the Chinese station? Any discussions of a U.S. return to the Moon bypass the ISS. It's in the wrong orbit.

AFAIK if they are getting foreign astronauts on their station it will be more likely from Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Venezuela, some African nations etc.
Brazil, Argentina.. and I doubt ESA would have too much trouble. In fact, I rather see them as the eventual link to the USA. BTW, the russians have some serious space cooperation, at least in technology transfer and training.

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #76 on: 09/20/2013 10:42 AM »
1-I thought this comment was interesting:

"Othman said she is convinced that China will promote space exploration for all mankind with its resolve and huge investment.

I think China can lead in the international community's exploration of space. It has the political will to expand its manned space endeavors, and based on that will, China has ensured and set aside enough resources."


2-Has anyone seen any recent illustrations with a Lunar Lander docked to the ISS?


1-That reads like a standard UN bureaucrat not saying anything substantive.

China is going to have difficulty with signing up international partners because many countries are scared of them. Will they get South Korea? Japan? Vietnam? No. All their neighbors are concerned about China's regional ambitions. I doubt they will get the Indians, but for more complex reasons.

Then again, the United States' biggest problem with signing up international partners is that the U.S. is unreliable.

2-Did you mean ISS or the Chinese station? Any discussions of a U.S. return to the Moon bypass the ISS. It's in the wrong orbit.

 

I meant the ISS.

Some folks are not convinced the ISS is in the wrong orbit for Lunar and Mars missions. The ISS's orbital inclination of 51.65 degrees is about the same as Skylab's 50 degree orbital inclination, and different than Tiangong-1's 42.78 degrees orbital inclination.

The orbit of the International Space Station is a bit of a compromise for various LEO and beyond LEO missions, but on the plus side it periodically flies over the major launch sites of the world which can provide redundant launch access to the ISS.


Manned flight around Moon considered By Jonathan Amos Science correspondent, BBC News   October 11, 2010
At: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11304559

"'We need the courage of starting a new era,' Europe's director of human spaceflight, Simonetta Di Pippo, told BBC News.

'The idea is to ascend to the space station the various elements of the mission, and then try to assemble the spacecraft at the ISS, and go from the orbit of the space station to the Moon.'"

And, "If humans ever do go to asteroids or Mars, the scale of the infrastructure needed to complete a safe round trip could not possibly be launched on a single rocket from Earth. It will have to be sent up on multiple flights and joined together in orbit.

Doing this assembly at the ISS means it can be overseen by astronauts with ready access to tools if needed."


Note also:

Soyuz to the Moon?   by Jeff Foust    August 2, 2004
At: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/1

"Once the module and upper stage were in orbit, a Soyuz spacecraft that had completed its half-year stay at the ISS would undock from the station and dock with the logistics module. The upper stage attached to the other end of the logistics module then fires, sending the complete spacecraft on a free-return circumlunar trajectory."



In considering the previously noted illustration, perhaps there is the possibility of China eventually staging cargo and human Lunar missions from its future Modular Space Station.
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #77 on: 09/20/2013 12:25 PM »
I noted that the animations for Tiangong 2 suggesting that refuelling might come along while the space lab is unmanned, thus meaning that - like Tiangong 1 - only one docking port is required on the lab.   So, Tiangong 2 will not be based upon the modular station's core module or an experimental module.
Accoding to official paper, Tiangong 2 is a 8 ton class space lab. it may be two docking port on the lab, but it will not be based upon core module of space station

Quote
Will a crew be launched before the automatic dockings of the two experiment modules
bingo!CNSA will be launched a core module as a test,sent shenzhou&crew to the test core module。if core module‘s tested successful,then launched two experiment modules to dock with core module,else we will  fix&modify core module's dedign, launch it to orbit
« Last Edit: 09/20/2013 12:44 PM by Lsquirrel »

Offline input~2

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« Last Edit: 09/22/2013 01:05 PM by input~2 »

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #79 on: 09/22/2013 04:08 PM »
If Tiangong 2 is going to be like Tiangong 1 then it could use the CZ-2F class launcher and thus fly from Jiuquan, not Wenchang.

Offline heinkel174

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #80 on: 09/23/2013 02:19 AM »
If Tiangong 2 is going to be like Tiangong 1 then it could use the CZ-2F class launcher and thus fly from Jiuquan, not Wenchang.

It does. A recent journal paper has confirmed that TG-2 is going to be launched by CZ-2F.

We'll see how they can fit two docking ports on the baseline TG design.
« Last Edit: 09/24/2013 12:49 AM by heinkel174 »

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #81 on: 09/23/2013 08:03 AM »
If Tiangong 2 is going to be like Tiangong 1 then it could use the CZ-2F class launcher and thus fly from Jiuquan, not Wenchang.

It does. A recent journal paper has confirmed that TG-2 is going to be launched by CZ-2F.

We'll see how they can fit two doking ports on the basiline TG design.

Previous indications was that TG-2 would be launched by a CZ-7 from WSLC.

Offline beidou

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #82 on: 09/23/2013 10:39 AM »


It does. A recent journal paper has confirmed that TG-2 is going to be launched by CZ-2F.


Could you please share a copy of the paper you just mentioned?

Offline heinkel174

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #83 on: 09/24/2013 12:32 AM »


It does. A recent journal paper has confirmed that TG-2 is going to be launched by CZ-2F.


Could you please share a copy of the paper you just mentioned?

It's on the July issue of <国际太空> (Space International)

If you have access to Wanfang, here is the link
http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/Periodical_gjtk201307005.aspx

It's a paid database so it's proprietary, but this particular paper is really just ¥3. Anyway the author (citing the proceedings of the 4th CAST space technology forum) was quite explicit about it, said TG-2 will be launched by a CZ-2F.

« Last Edit: 09/24/2013 12:49 AM by heinkel174 »

Offline quanthasaquality

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #84 on: 09/25/2013 02:19 AM »
I thought these paragraphs were interesting:

Quote
Zhou Jianping, chief designer of China's manned space program, said the country will be able to rendezvous with other countries' spacecraft at the space station. China is also exploring the possibility of carrying out a joint rescue operation, according to Zhou.
...
If China starts taking foreign astronauts to outer space, we would like to be the first candidate," said Ahmed Bilal, chairman of the Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission. We also want to cooperate with China in remote sensing technology and educating the public about space."

China offering to take foreign astronauts to outer space? Maybe America should stick a module onto the ISS, that can dock with the Shenzhou. America would then have a choice between Russia and China for transportation to the ISS.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #85 on: 09/25/2013 07:25 AM »
From http://www.ecns.cn/2013/09-25/82217.shtml

"China expects to complete space station by 2023

China will complete its first space station within 10 years and be able to send crews of up to six people for short-term missions, according to the 64th International Astronautical Congress.
...
"Room in the station will be no less than 60 square meters, which is enough for astronauts to move freely," said Xu Dazhe, general manager of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp, at the five-day event that began on Monday in Beijing.

He said the station will also be able to support three astronauts on long-term missions.
...
According to China Manned Space Engineering Office, the space station will consist of three capsules with a cargo shuttle to transport supplies.

The station's core module will be 18.1 meters in length and will weigh 20 to 22 metric tons. The space station will also consist of two self-contained laboratories.

Wang Zhaoyao, director of China Manned Space Agency, said astronauts will be able to make long-term missions in orbit and conduct technical tests.

But more research and development will be needed to complete the space station, Zhou Jianping, chief designer of the manned space program, told Chinanews on Monday. He said China will be able to launch the planned space station in 10 years."
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #86 on: 09/28/2013 01:30 PM »


It does. A recent journal paper has confirmed that TG-2 is going to be launched by CZ-2F.


Could you please share a copy of the paper you just mentioned?

space international 2013.07:

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #87 on: 09/30/2013 01:33 PM »
I thought these paragraphs were interesting:

Quote
Zhou Jianping, chief designer of China's manned space program, said the country will be able to rendezvous with other countries' spacecraft at the space station. China is also exploring the possibility of carrying out a joint rescue operation, according to Zhou.
...
If China starts taking foreign astronauts to outer space, we would like to be the first candidate," said Ahmed Bilal, chairman of the Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission. We also want to cooperate with China in remote sensing technology and educating the public about space."

China offering to take foreign astronauts to outer space? Maybe America should stick a module onto the ISS, that can dock with the Shenzhou. America would then have a choice between Russia and China for transportation to the ISS.


Or a real win-win for everyone plan would be to dock the whole Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020 to the ISS and extend the lifespan of the International Space Station to 2033 or longer. 
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #88 on: 09/30/2013 01:56 PM »
1-I thought this comment was interesting:

"Othman said she is convinced that China will promote space exploration for all mankind with its resolve and huge investment.

I think China can lead in the international community's exploration of space. It has the political will to expand its manned space endeavors, and based on that will, China has ensured and set aside enough resources."


2-Has anyone seen any recent illustrations with a Lunar Lander docked to the ISS?


1-That reads like a standard UN bureaucrat not saying anything substantive.

China is going to have difficulty with signing up international partners because many countries are scared of them. Will they get South Korea? Japan? Vietnam? No. All their neighbors are concerned about China's regional ambitions. I doubt they will get the Indians, but for more complex reasons.

Then again, the United States' biggest problem with signing up international partners is that the U.S. is unreliable.

2-Did you mean ISS or the Chinese station? Any discussions of a U.S. return to the Moon bypass the ISS. It's in the wrong orbit.

 

I meant the ISS.

Some folks are not convinced the ISS is in the wrong orbit for Lunar and Mars missions. The ISS's orbital inclination of 51.65 degrees is about the same as Skylab's 50 degree orbital inclination, and different than Tiangong-1's 42.78 degrees orbital inclination.

The orbit of the International Space Station is a bit of a compromise for various LEO and beyond LEO missions, but on the plus side it periodically flies over the major launch sites of the world which can provide redundant launch access to the ISS.


Manned flight around Moon considered By Jonathan Amos Science correspondent, BBC News   October 11, 2010
At: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11304559

"'We need the courage of starting a new era,' Europe's director of human spaceflight, Simonetta Di Pippo, told BBC News.

'The idea is to ascend to the space station the various elements of the mission, and then try to assemble the spacecraft at the ISS, and go from the orbit of the space station to the Moon.'"

And, "If humans ever do go to asteroids or Mars, the scale of the infrastructure needed to complete a safe round trip could not possibly be launched on a single rocket from Earth. It will have to be sent up on multiple flights and joined together in orbit.

Doing this assembly at the ISS means it can be overseen by astronauts with ready access to tools if needed."


Note also:

Soyuz to the Moon?   by Jeff Foust    August 2, 2004
At: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/199/1

"Once the module and upper stage were in orbit, a Soyuz spacecraft that had completed its half-year stay at the ISS would undock from the station and dock with the logistics module. The upper stage attached to the other end of the logistics module then fires, sending the complete spacecraft on a free-return circumlunar trajectory."



In considering the previously noted illustration, perhaps there is the possibility of China eventually staging cargo and human Lunar missions from its future Modular Space Station.


Note:
 

Dock it to ISS, and then what? Not going to the moon from there, it is at the wrong inclination.

Not so... The delta-V to reach the moon is virtually identical from pretty much ANY inclination in LEO. You just have fewer and tighter launch windows.

This myth that the ISS orbit is a terrible staging point for BLEO needs to die. The most significant difference is the delta-v from launch to that LEO inclination. But once you are in LEO you always at minimum two launch windows to the moon per month.



"The Orbital Piloted Assembly and Experiment Complex (Russian: Орбитальный Пилотируемый Сборочно-Экспериментальный Комплекс, Orbitalnyj Pilotiruiemyj Sboročno-Ekspierimientalnyj Komplieks)[1][2] (ОПСЭК, OPSEK) is a proposed third-generation modular space station in Low Earth orbit. OPSEK would initially consist of modules from the Russian Orbital Segment of the International Space Station (ISS)."

And, "The proposal would use OPSEK to assemble components of manned interplanetary spacecraft destined for Mars, the Moon, and possibly Saturn."

From: Orbital Piloted Assembly and Experiment Complex    Wikipedia
At: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPSEK



"At the forefront of the talks were Russian plans to replace the ISS with a new manned outpost in low Earth orbit in 2020-2025. However unlike the ISS, which was designed to serve primarily as a research lab, the new station was conceived as an assembly point for missions to the Moon and Mars. Russian and European officials said they hoped that NASA would also be interested in the project."

From: A concept of the Russian successor to the ISS  By Anatoly Zak; last update: April 4, 2011
At: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/opsek.html



Blackstar, does this answer your concern about the potential usefulness of the ISS, OPSEK, or the Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020 for stacking or staging the elements needed for various Lunar and beyond cislunar missions? 
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #89 on: 10/25/2013 06:16 AM »
a lecture from United Nations/China Workshop on Human Space Technology(HSTI 2013)
author:Zhou Jianping (Chief Designer of China Manned Space Program)

something intersting:
the cargo ship named "Tianzhou", in chinese it’s "天舟"
core module &lab module:

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #90 on: 10/29/2013 03:08 AM »
Thanks Lsquirrel. The presentation says the supply ships are called Tianzhou and will be launched by CZ-7. Shenzhou will continue to be launched by CZ-2F. That's the first time I've seen the name Tianzhou mentioned. As Tian Gong means "Heavenly Palace" and  Shen Zhou means "Divine Craft", I take it that Tianzhou means "Heavenly Craft". It also says there are three types of supply ships; pressurised, semi-pressurised and unpressurised.

CZ-5B will be used to launch the three modules. The station will be occupied by three taikonauts for up six months in duration at a time for a continuous human presence. Assembly of the modules is similar to that used by Mir. The station will have regenerative life support and electric propulsion.

Tiangong 2 is being launched to verify refuelling and mid-term habitation technologies. LM-7 and CZ-5B will be first launched on test flights.

For international cooperation opportunities exist for international or jointly developed laboratory modules, international spacecraft visits, joint training and flights of astronauts, space rescue, and international payloads and experiments.
« Last Edit: 10/29/2013 03:08 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #91 on: 10/29/2013 03:40 AM »
a lecture from United Nations/China Workshop on Human Space Technology(HSTI 2013)
author:Zhou Jianping (Chief Designer of China Manned Space Program)

something intersting:
the cargo ship named "Tianzhou", in chinese it’s "天舟"
core module &lab module:

So, it's a Mir class core module, and two Spektr FGB class power modules. The base block node should be 3.3 meters in diameter (similar to the new Node module for ISS), compared with the 2.2 meter diameter node for the Mir base block.


Offline lucspace

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #92 on: 11/01/2013 05:34 AM »
The French site Forum du Conquete Spatiale (http://astronautique.actifforum.com/t13987p105-information-programme-habite-chinois#295733) reports the names of the future Chinese space station:

* The future Chinese space station is named "Tian Gong" (Heavenly Palace), code "TG"
* It's base module is named "Tian He" (Heavenly Harmony), code "TH"
* It's experimental module I is named "Wen Tian" (Heavenly Questioning), code "WT"
* It's experimental module II is named "Xun Tian" (Heavenly Investigator), code "XT"
* The cargo ships are named "Tian Zhou" (Heavenly Ship), code "TZ"

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #93 on: 11/01/2013 06:07 AM »
The French site Forum du Conquete Spatiale (http://astronautique.actifforum.com/t13987p105-information-programme-habite-chinois#295733) reports the names of the future Chinese space station:

* The future Chinese space station is named "Tian Gong" (Heavenly Palace), code "TG"
* It's base module is named "Tian He" (Harmony of the Heavens), code "TH"
* It's experimental module I is named "Wen Tian" (Quest for the Heavens), code "WT"
* It's experimental module II is named "Xun Tian" (Heavenly Cruiser), code "XT"
* The cargo ships are named "Tian Zhou" (Heavenly Ship), code "TZ"

I have corrected some of the translations above in italics.  ;)

Personally I found the names to be, um, only roughly average - there's too much references to the heavens in the naming scheme! And they have recycled the Tiangong name to the space station - this must be very confusing to people all around the world since there is a Tiangong-2 already coming soon...

Oh well it's at least 5 years away from launch anyway, perhaps they will come up with another name by then (remember that Salyut 1 almost became Zarya 1!).  ::)

Meanwhile the CMSE office has also got a new logo.  :)

Official press release from CMSE: http://www.cmse.gov.cn/news/show.php?itemid=3743
And a news report about the naming: http://news.cntv.cn/2013/10/31/VIDE1383214680119329.shtml


« Last Edit: 11/01/2013 06:08 AM by Galactic Penguin SST »
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Satori

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #94 on: 11/01/2013 09:04 AM »
The Tiangong configuration:

Base module "Tian He" (Harmony of the Heavens), code "TH"
Experimental module I "Wen Tian" (Quest for the Heavens), code "WT"
Experimental module II "Xun Tian" (Heavenly Cruiser), code "XT"
Cargo ships "Tian Zhou" (Heavenly Ship), code "TZ"

Offline Satori

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #95 on: 03/06/2015 06:43 PM »

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #96 on: 04/10/2015 02:01 AM »
evolution of china space station:
2011,2014,2015
« Last Edit: 04/10/2015 02:06 AM by Lsquirrel »

Offline manboy

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #97 on: 05/07/2015 08:34 AM »
The station will have...electric propulsion.
Can you elaborate more on that?
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Offline JazzFan

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #98 on: 05/07/2015 11:29 PM »
The station will have...electric propulsion.
Can you elaborate more on that?

Having does not mean that it has to be a primary drive source.  Having and testing one in space is still science until capabilities are increased above 720 mN.  Also, isn't the benefit of EM in that small but long duration thrust has benefits?

"Yang Juan, Professor of Propulsion Theory and Engineering of Aeronautics and Astronautics at the Northwestern Polytechnic University in Xi’an published last year in the academic journal Acta Physica Sinica about her success in generating thrust measurements from a Microwave resonance based device. In 2010 Yuan quantified the amount of thrust that could be produced, and stated that the team was getting positive experimental results. Their latest paper describes their latest thruster and gives the test results in details, showing that with a couple of kilowatts of power they can produce 720 mN (about 72 grams) of thrust."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3223406/posts

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/

Offline notsorandom

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #99 on: 05/08/2015 08:06 PM »
The term electric propulsion is sometime used in reference to ion drives. It would make sense to use this sort of technology to counteract drag. There may be implications to the micro-gravity environment available for science.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #100 on: 05/10/2015 04:20 PM »
The term electric propulsion is sometime used in reference to ion drives. It would make sense to use this sort of technology to counteract drag. There may be implications to the micro-gravity environment available for science.
If it is used in continuous thrust mode, exactly to cancel the drag, it would not affect the environment at all. But, having a continuous thrust SEP engine running for years would be quite an achievement. Weight and size might not matter much for this application, and it would be relatively tiny. We calculated that to counteract the drag of the ISS you needed around 250mN of thrust. It will depend on the solar panels drag, of course, but I would guess that if they do 100mN with the ability to throttle down, it will be more than fine. Girded ion engines technology would be out, though.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #101 on: 05/12/2015 12:30 AM »
Is there any difference using an ion engine in LEO compared to higher orbits? There's a bit of free oxygen floating around in LEO (where you get that drag) and I wonder if that creates any problems with the emitter or charged particles or anything like that.

Offline simonbp

Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #102 on: 05/12/2015 03:37 AM »
Is there any difference using an ion engine in LEO compared to higher orbits? There's a bit of free oxygen floating around in LEO (where you get that drag) and I wonder if that creates any problems with the emitter or charged particles or anything like that.

Typical grided or Hall ion engines use argon or xenon; IIRC, argon will never form an oxide and xenon oxide is really difficult. So, I doubt oxygen is an issue. A greater challenge might be keeping any crew on EVA from touching the high-voltage systems.

Also, *somewhere* on this very forum is presentation on putting an electrodynamic tether on ISS to change its orbital inclination...
« Last Edit: 05/12/2015 03:40 AM by simonbp »

Offline Burninate

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #103 on: 05/12/2015 12:08 PM »
It makes little sense at this point to design a station for LEO without SEP - it reduces the mass requirement per year substantially for not a lot of cost.

The EM Drive remains unexplained fringe theory that everything we know about physics says will eventually be explained away in terms of poor testing methodology.  Ion thrusters are COTS flight-proven hardware.  Electrodynamic tethers are physically well-modelled but untested tech.  It's a safe bet they're talking about ion thrusters.

Offline Star One

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #104 on: 05/12/2015 01:15 PM »

It makes little sense at this point to design a station for LEO without SEP - it reduces the mass requirement per year substantially for not a lot of cost.

The EM Drive remains unexplained fringe theory that everything we know about physics says will eventually be explained away in terms of poor testing methodology.  Ion thrusters are COTS flight-proven hardware.  Electrodynamic tethers are physically well-modelled but untested tech.  It's a safe bet they're talking about ion thrusters.

It would be best if you didn't engage in speculation about the EM thruster here, especially making such short hand assumptions as it will only probably lead to the thread lurching wildly off topic.

Offline Star One

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Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #105 on: 10/13/2015 05:56 PM »
Informative article on this from Space News reporting from the IAC, especially intrigued by the dock able astronomy telescope & their reaching out to the international community for cooperation.

China's Space Station Planners Put out Welcome Mat

Quote
JERUSALEM — China is soliciting international participation in its future manned space station in the form of foreign modules that would attach to the three-module core system, visits by foreign crew-transport vehicles for short stays and the involvement of non-Chinese researchers in placing experiments on the complex, the chief designer of China’s manned space program said Oct. 12.

But he declined to commit to an international orbital docking technology that would facilitate international participation in the Chinese facility.

The Chinese orbital station, consisting of a core module and two experiment-carrying modules, can be expanded to a total of six modules if international partners want to invest in their own components, said Zhou Jianping, chief designer of the China Manned Space Program at the China Manned Space Agency.

Zhou said China plans to launch an astronomy telescope into an orbit near enough to the space station to dock to it for upgrades and servicing. He declined to specify the telescope’s size.

http://spacenews.com/chinas-space-station-planners-put-out-welcome-mat/
« Last Edit: 10/13/2015 06:03 PM by Star One »

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #106 on: 06/02/2016 11:22 PM »
Time to breathe new life into this thread. There have been several updates on the "Novosti kosmonavtiki" forum in the last few weeks (with interesting comments from Konstantin Lantratov, a former NK journalist) :

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/forum10/topic8751/?PAGEN_1=40

Most notably, a 35-page document (unfortunately, in Chinese) on the space station published by the Chinese Manned Space Agency :
http://cmse.gov.cn/uploadfile/news/uploadfile/201604/20160427104809225.pdf

A short summary of that in English can be found here :
http://www.popsci.com/chinas-space-station-plans-in-powerpoint-closer-look-at-tiangong-3

The name Tiangong-3 used in the summary does not appear to be correct. This was the name of a Tiangong with two docking ports (ala Salyut-6 and Salyut-7) that was cancelled a while ago.

Interesting plans for a Hubble-class space telescope (Xuntian) that will periodically dock with the station for servicing. More here (in Chinese) :

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/css/Xuntian/Xuntian.html

Yang Liwei recently gave the following launch schedule in a meeting with students :
- core module (Tianhe) : approximately 2018
- first research module (Wentian) : approximately 2020
- second research module (recently renamed Mengtian or "Heavenly Dream") : approximately 2021
- completion of station assembly : 2022

Another source (in Chinese) says assembly will be completed "after 2022" and the Xuntian space telescope will be launched after 2022. It refers to the core module as Tianhe-1 (which implies there will also be a Tianhe-2 at a later stage) :
http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2016-04/21/c_1118695895.htm

Finally, a model of the space station is shown at a science and technology exhibition that opened in Beijing on 1 June. Note Wentian with its EVA airlock, very reminiscent of Mir's Kvant-2 module. Lantratov says that prior to the arrival of Wentian, cosmonauts will exit the station via a hatch on the "zenith" side of the docking node (where there is no docking port).
 




Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #107 on: 06/03/2016 05:14 AM »
Time to breathe new life into this thread. There have been several updates on the "Novosti kosmonavtiki" forum in the last few weeks (with interesting comments from Konstantin Lantratov, a former NK journalist) :

http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/forum10/topic8751/?PAGEN_1=40

Most notably, a 35-page document (unfortunately, in Chinese) on the space station published by the Chinese Manned Space Agency :
http://cmse.gov.cn/uploadfile/news/uploadfile/201604/20160427104809225.pdf

That is old news. I have a full translation of that document here.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7058.msg1525636#msg1525636
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #108 on: 06/03/2016 07:10 AM »
I shall be referring to this as "The Tiangong Complex", just as I did with The Mir Complex and The Zarya Complex (although for some reason the latter didn't catch on).

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #109 on: 06/05/2016 07:13 AM »
Wouldn't it be better to call this the Tian He complex? That's the name of the core module.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #110 on: 06/05/2016 08:13 AM »
Wouldn't it be better to call this the Tian He complex? That's the name of the core module.

I thought that the overall name of the station was to be Tiangong - whether a serial number is added or not.   Of course, I could be out of date!
« Last Edit: 06/05/2016 03:52 PM by Phillip Clark »

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #111 on: 06/05/2016 03:41 PM »
Some details

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #112 on: 06/07/2016 10:34 AM »
Wouldn't it be better to call this the Tian He complex? That's the name of the core module.

I thought that the overall name of the station was to be Tiangong - whether a serial number is added or not.   Of course, I could be out of date!

China calls the station Tiangong without serial number.

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Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #113 on: 06/20/2016 04:44 PM »
Interesting move  by China here. Quite a bit of useful info about the station in general as well.

China prepares assembly of its space station, invites collaboration through U.N.

http://spacenews.com/china-prepares-assembly-of-its-space-station-invites-collaboration-through-u-n/
« Last Edit: 06/20/2016 04:47 PM by Star One »

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #114 on: 06/20/2016 05:18 PM »
Interesting move  by China here. Quite a bit of useful info about the station in general as well.
China prepares assembly of its space station, invites collaboration through U.N.
http://spacenews.com/china-prepares-assembly-of-its-space-station-invites-collaboration-through-u-n/

It claims that Tiangong 2 will be launched atop a CZ-5B vehicle from Wenchang in September.   Hopefully the rest of the piece is more accurate than this.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #115 on: 06/20/2016 06:26 PM »
I assume the Chinese use Kurs (or their own version) for automated docking.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #116 on: 06/20/2016 07:47 PM »
AIUI, they have a docking system patterned after the APAS, so I would guess their aproach ops could be similar to Kurs. But I don't have any information.
I understand that the new IDSS does include some approach ops definitions and that the Chinese desire to be compatible with it.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #117 on: 06/20/2016 09:27 PM »
I assume the Chinese use Kurs (or their own version) for automated docking.
AIUI, they have a docking system patterned after the APAS, so I would guess their aproach ops could be similar to Kurs. But I don't have any information.
I understand that the new IDSS does include some approach ops definitions and that the Chinese desire to be compatible with it.
As I understand, the Russians did a complete technology transfer in the 2000's to China on firstly the analog Kurs versions and much more recently the digital Kurs (both Kurs ATV, NA and MM versions). Transfer of the European rendezvous and avionics systems used in the Kurs ATV System was through a MoU and cooperation agreement with ESA.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #118 on: 06/20/2016 10:40 PM »
Interesting move  by China here. Quite a bit of useful info about the station in general as well.
China prepares assembly of its space station, invites collaboration through U.N.
http://spacenews.com/china-prepares-assembly-of-its-space-station-invites-collaboration-through-u-n/

It claims that Tiangong 2 will be launched atop a CZ-5B vehicle from Wenchang in September.   Hopefully the rest of the piece is more accurate than this.

Well ok then what is being launched on and where from with quoted sources if your going to dispute this?

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #119 on: 06/20/2016 10:56 PM »
Interesting move  by China here. Quite a bit of useful info about the station in general as well.
China prepares assembly of its space station, invites collaboration through U.N.
http://spacenews.com/china-prepares-assembly-of-its-space-station-invites-collaboration-through-u-n/

It claims that Tiangong 2 will be launched atop a CZ-5B vehicle from Wenchang in September.   Hopefully the rest of the piece is more accurate than this.

Well ok then what is being launched on and where from with quoted sources if your going to dispute this?
Here is what currently stands in the latest version of the reliable NSF Chinese Launch Schedule: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=5060.msg1542311#msg1542311
2016:
September - CZ-2F/T2 - JSLC, LC43/921 - TG-2 Tiangong-2; Banxing-2
October - CZ-5/YZ-2 - WSLC, LC101 - ??
October 17 (?) - CZ-2F/G - JSLC, LC43/921 - SZ-11 Shenzhou-11

2017:
April - CZ-7 - WSLC, LC201 - TZ-1 Tianzhou-1
?? - CZ-2F/G - JSLC, LC43/921 - SZ-12 Shenzhou-12

2018:
?? - CZ-5 - WSLC, LC101 - TH Tianhe Space Station Core Module
« Last Edit: 06/20/2016 11:14 PM by russianhalo117 »

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #120 on: 06/21/2016 05:58 AM »
So in fact the launch site is right, it's over the variant of CZ-5.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #121 on: 06/21/2016 06:26 AM »
So in fact the launch site is right, it's over the variant of CZ-5.

Tiangong 2 will use the CZ-2F/T from Jiuquan and NOT the CZ-5B from the new launch site.

The nerk who wrote the story confused the Tiangong launch with the maiden flight of the CZ-5 - both are currently scheduled for September.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #122 on: 06/21/2016 04:59 PM »
Some details
The grapple fixture and end effector design is probably just a place holder, but it would be interesting to see if the Chinese blatantly copies it.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 04:59 PM by manboy »
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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #123 on: 06/23/2016 12:53 PM »
English language presentations on 'Chinese Mir':

http://www.unoosa.org/documents/pdf/copuos/2016/copuos2016tech20E.pdf
http://www.unoosa.org/documents/pdf/psa/hsti/CostaRica2016/5-2.pdf

Moderator: Isn't it reasonable to move here messages on the Chinese station from the general Chinese topic?

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #124 on: 06/24/2016 07:06 AM »
The last paragraph is interesting. I hope they keep to their word.

"It is certain that China will never halt its footsteps in human space exploration and will continue to explore the vast space, deeper and further!"
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #125 on: 06/24/2016 07:49 PM »
CSS hardware


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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #126 on: 06/24/2016 10:06 PM »
CSS hardware


This is sections that make up the (TH) Tianhe Space Station Core Module.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #127 on: 06/25/2016 12:20 AM »
CSS hardware


This is sections that make up the (TH) Tianhe Space Station Core Module.

indeed

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #129 on: 06/26/2016 06:50 PM »
Larger photo of the first scene of the video presented in screenshots above:

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/usr/uploads/2016/06/24/1466769707125040.jpg

showing Tian He test or flight hardware being processed, with multiple docking adapter featuring three docking ports and an EVA hatch, robotic arm grappling points and what looks like the main body of the module in the left background.

Offline Zero-G

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #130 on: 06/26/2016 10:17 PM »
Can anyone of you please provide a link to that video?
"I still don't understand who I am: the first human or the last dog in space." - Yuri Gagarin

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #131 on: 06/27/2016 02:26 AM »
Larger photo of the first scene of the video presented in screenshots above:

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/usr/uploads/2016/06/24/1466769707125040.jpg

showing Tian He test or flight hardware being processed, with multiple docking adapter featuring three docking ports and an EVA hatch, robotic arm grappling points and what looks like the main body of the module in the left background.
That is the small diameter section in the background. large diameter section is not shown.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #132 on: 06/27/2016 03:45 PM »
Additional views here: http://imgur.com/a/th8b6

In the bottom one, the large diameter section seems to be visible in the background on the left.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #133 on: 06/27/2016 05:56 PM »
Additional views here: http://imgur.com/a/th8b6

In the bottom one, the large diameter section seems to be visible in the background on the left.
yes indeed. it appears to be half or two thirds of it of the whole LDS. with the missing half or third being the propulson and station keeping business end of the core module

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #134 on: 06/28/2016 09:21 PM »
Larger photo of the first scene of the video presented in screenshots above:

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/usr/uploads/2016/06/24/1466769707125040.jpg

showing Tian He test or flight hardware being processed, with multiple docking adapter featuring three docking ports and an EVA hatch, robotic arm grappling points and what looks like the main body of the module in the left background.
Do I see a Lyappa fixture?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyappa_arm
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #135 on: 06/28/2016 10:21 PM »
Larger photo of the first scene of the video presented in screenshots above:

http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/usr/uploads/2016/06/24/1466769707125040.jpg

showing Tian He test or flight hardware being processed, with multiple docking adapter featuring three docking ports and an EVA hatch, robotic arm grappling points and what looks like the main body of the module in the left background.
Do I see a Lyappa fixture?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyappa_arm
Yes and it is licensed either peacefully or by threat from Russia like nearly everything else .

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #136 on: 03/20/2017 08:23 AM »
Time to revive this snoozing thread methinks! :)

A couple of queries for which someone might know the answer.

When the names for the components of the Tiangong Complex (as I call the station) appeared, the second plug-on module was given the name Xuntian but the latest data show that the name is actually to be Mangtian, with the free-flying space telescope being Xuntian.   I am wondering whether there has been a genuine name switch for the second module or what there was a bureaucratic blunder which led to the "Xuntian" name being applied to the wrong piece of the Tiangong Complex "kit" when the first details were released and this error simply got repeated in other literature.   

Thoughts anyone?

Next, a query that needs someone who knows the Chinese language well.   China is a predominantly atheist country and therefore the use of "Heavenly" as part of spacecraft names seems to be rather strange.   I am wondering whether what we translate as "heavenly" might convey something like "beyond the atmosphere" (ie, outer space) rather than having religious associations.   Same with "divine" as part of the Shenzhou name.

I would be interested in any thoughts about this as well please.

Many thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: 03/20/2017 08:24 AM by Phillip Clark »

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #137 on: 03/20/2017 09:15 AM »
This is exciting stuff and great to hear! I wish them great luck and success.
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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #138 on: 03/21/2017 06:36 AM »
When the names for the components of the Tiangong Complex (as I call the station) appeared, the second plug-on module was given the name Xuntian but the latest data show that the name is actually to be Mangtian, with the free-flying space telescope being Xuntian.

Using http://www.chinesetools.eu/tools/zhuyin/ the transliteration of 梦天 is Meng Tian, not Mang Tian.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #139 on: 03/21/2017 07:01 AM »
When the names for the components of the Tiangong Complex (as I call the station) appeared, the second plug-on module was given the name Xuntian but the latest data show that the name is actually to be Mangtian, with the free-flying space telescope being Xuntian.
Using http://www.chinesetools.eu/tools/zhuyin/ the transliteration of 梦天 is Meng Tian, not Mang Tian.

Thank you Steven - although the problem could be my lousy eyesight misreading a reference!

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #140 on: 03/21/2017 06:49 PM »
Next, a query that needs someone who knows the Chinese language well.   China is a predominantly atheist country and therefore the use of "Heavenly" as part of spacecraft names seems to be rather strange.   I am wondering whether what we translate as "heavenly" might convey something like "beyond the atmosphere" (ie, outer space) rather than having religious associations.   Same with "divine" as part of the Shenzhou name.

It's not strange to pick names from mythology. NASA has used Apollo, Ares, Mercury, etc. and you don't see a lot of ancient Greek or Roman temples around here.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #141 on: 03/21/2017 07:35 PM »
RonM makes a good point: it is often difficult to distinguish between myth and religion (and sometimes between myth and "science"). ;)

"Mars," for example. It's a term used in science. It is also used in mythology. And in discussion of some religious practices.

I am certainly not an Asian language scholar but it seems plausible the same could be true of the term "heavenly" in Chinese.
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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #142 on: 03/22/2017 10:06 PM »
Time to revive this snoozing thread methinks! :)

Next, a query that needs someone who knows the Chinese language well.   China is a predominantly atheist country and therefore the use of "Heavenly" as part of spacecraft names seems to be rather strange.   I am wondering whether what we translate as "heavenly" might convey something like "beyond the atmosphere" (ie, outer space) rather than having religious associations.   Same with "divine" as part of the Shenzhou name.


China is not an atheist country, the CP is at most nominally so. In reality China is home to hundreds of millions of Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims.
"There is nobody who is a bigger fan of sending robots to Mars than me... But I believe firmly that the best, the most comprehensive, the most successful exploration will be done by humans" Steve Squyres

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #143 on: 03/23/2017 12:09 AM »
Time to revive this snoozing thread methinks! :)

A couple of queries for which someone might know the answer.

When the names for the components of the Tiangong Complex (as I call the station) appeared, the second plug-on module was given the name Xuntian but the latest data show that the name is actually to be Mangtian, with the free-flying space telescope being Xuntian.   I am wondering whether there has been a genuine name switch for the second module or what there was a bureaucratic blunder which led to the "Xuntian" name being applied to the wrong piece of the Tiangong Complex "kit" when the first details were released and this error simply got repeated in other literature.   

Thoughts anyone?

Next, a query that needs someone who knows the Chinese language well.   China is a predominantly atheist country and therefore the use of "Heavenly" as part of spacecraft names seems to be rather strange.   I am wondering whether what we translate as "heavenly" might convey something like "beyond the atmosphere" (ie, outer space) rather than having religious associations.   Same with "divine" as part of the Shenzhou name.

I would be interested in any thoughts about this as well please.

Many thanks in advance.
The use of "Heavenly" as part of the spacecraft name is totally fine. For Chinese, this word (Heavenly) doesn't imply any religious meaning. Chinese just like grand, beautiful, and natural names. The actual meaning of "天宮" is "Sky House", but if you translate it to "Heavenly Palace", Chinese are happy about that.

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #144 on: 03/23/2017 12:16 AM »
When the names for the components of the Tiangong Complex (as I call the station) appeared, the second plug-on module was given the name Xuntian but the latest data show that the name is actually to be Mangtian, with the free-flying space telescope being Xuntian.

Using http://www.chinesetools.eu/tools/zhuyin/ the transliteration of 梦天 is Meng Tian, not Mang Tian.
It is not "梦天", but "問天". "問" means "ask". Therefore, "問天" probably means Chinese are curious about the Nature and they want to figure out how it works.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #145 on: 03/23/2017 03:59 AM »
It is not "梦天", but "問天". "問" means "ask". Therefore, "問天" probably means Chinese are curious about the Nature and they want to figure out how it works.

I only copied what was given from a Chinese presentation.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #146 on: 03/23/2017 05:25 AM »
Thank you for the comments regarding the use of "heavenly" in Chinese space station related and other names.   I was particularly interested in Frensel's "Sky House" translation.

Offline frensel

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Re: Chinese Modular Space Station - circa 2020
« Reply #147 on: 03/23/2017 07:40 AM »
It is not "梦天", but "問天". "問" means "ask". Therefore, "問天" probably means Chinese are curious about the Nature and they want to figure out how it works.

I only copied what was given from a Chinese presentation.
You are right. It seems that this is the new name of the second space laboratory. "問天" is the name of the first laboratory module.

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