Author Topic: NASA News Briefing On MRO Find - Evidence suggests water currently on Mars  (Read 36080 times)

Offline hop

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If we will eventually contaminate Mars with Earth microbes, what's the point in spending millions on preventing the inevitable?
Humans going to Mars is not inevitable, and not likely to happen for decades. If it does happen, the costs will be so high that the millions spent on protection today will be utterly insignificant in comparison.

Finding Mars life would extraordinarily interesting scientifically, and would also significantly affect the planning of crewed missions. Ensuring we don't confuse the situation with hitchhikers in the meantime is very sensible IMO.

Offline Tony Ostinato

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i'm all for manned spaceflight, especially things that have a chance of happening, but i gotta say the robots are doin a mighty fine job with mars.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Now here's a Martian business opportunity:

Fly to Mars and collect some of this water, bring it back to Earth, filter it, and sell it as "Mars tonic water: A refreshing drink from another world".

I know this is a joke but... Hell, you know that Mars's geochemistry is pretty extreme, right? That 'water' is filled with mineral salts and petrochlorates.  Forget about 'a refreshing drink'.  Think more along the lines of "Pete's Patented Martian Purgative". ;)
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Offline Rocket Science

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Now here's a Martian business opportunity:

Fly to Mars and collect some of this water, bring it back to Earth, filter it, and sell it as "Mars tonic water: A refreshing drink from another world".

They could even add some red colouring (sugar free, of course) to give it an authentic feel! :D

*Disclaimer: If some wacky NuSpace business actually decides to do this, I will not be held responsible when we all grow three heads. ;D
Maybe we can get those two charming young ladies with their space bars to market for you… ;)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline Bill White

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Now here's a Martian business opportunity:

Fly to Mars and collect some of this water, bring it back to Earth, filter it, and sell it as "Mars tonic water: A refreshing drink from another world".

They could even add some red colouring (sugar free, of course) to give it an authentic feel! :D

*Disclaimer: If some wacky NuSpace business actually decides to do this, I will not be held responsible when we all grow three heads. ;D
Maybe we can get those two charming young ladies with their space bars to market for you… ;)

Bruce Sterling's 1996 sci-fi novel "Holy Fire" has a scene where super rich people pay scandalous sums to cool their drinks with ice extracted from the lunar poles.

http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/sterling.html
EML architectures should be seen as ratchet opportunities

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Bruce Sterling's 1996 sci-fi novel "Holy Fire" has a scene where super rich people pay scandalous sums to cool their drinks with ice extracted from the lunar poles.

http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/sterling.html

What a thought! A drink arguably more expensive that most countries! :o
"Oops! I left the silly thing in reverse!" - Duck Dodgers

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The time for words has passed; The time has come to put up or shut up!
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Offline Blackstar

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Now here's a Martian business opportunity:

Fly to Mars and collect some of this water, bring it back to Earth, filter it, and sell it as "Mars tonic water: A refreshing drink from another world".

Not a good idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waters_of_Mars

Offline Bill White

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Bruce Sterling's 1996 sci-fi novel "Holy Fire" has a scene where super rich people pay scandalous sums to cool their drinks with ice extracted from the lunar poles.

http://www.sfsite.com/~silverag/sterling.html

What a thought! A drink arguably more expensive that most countries! :o

One quick link, that quotes from Sterling's novel, and then I'm off this topic, as being off-topic for the thread.

http://philebersole.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/like-selling-refrigerators-to-eskimos/

Quote
    Daizaburo said, “…We’re taking waters.  Would you like a water?”…

    “We have lunar water,” said the crab.  “Very interesting isotopic properties.”

* * *

    The other woman at their little table learned forward. … “It rode a comet from the rim of universe,” she lisped alertly.  “Frozen six billion year.  Never knew the heat of life—until we drink it.”
EML architectures should be seen as ratchet opportunities

Offline Blackstar

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« Last Edit: 08/04/2011 09:57 pm by Blackstar »

Offline Cinder

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The paper says MRO spectrometer does not show water signatures.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6043/740
NEC ULTIMA SI PRIOR

Offline ugordan

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The paper says MRO spectrometer does not show water signatures.

That was brought up at the conference as well. Precisely why noone should be jumping the gun as if this is a done deal.

Offline JosephB

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Now here's a Martian business opportunity:

Fly to Mars and collect some of this water, bring it back to Earth, filter it, and sell it as "Mars tonic water: A refreshing drink from another world".

Not a good idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waters_of_Mars
I always thought the fourth Doctor was best.

Offline Rocket Science

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Now here's a Martian business opportunity:

Fly to Mars and collect some of this water, bring it back to Earth, filter it, and sell it as "Mars tonic water: A refreshing drink from another world".
Not a good idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Waters_of_Mars
I always thought the fourth Doctor was best.
Does that mean we have to push the Auto-Destruct Button… :o
« Last Edit: 08/04/2011 10:21 pm by Rocket Science »
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline Robotbeat

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The paper says MRO spectrometer does not show water signatures.

That was brought up at the conference as well. ...
...And earlier in this thread.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline Robotbeat

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Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Cinder

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I had skimmed the thread looking for previous mention but missed it.  I was surprised as others that the discussion was taking water for granted. 
NEC ULTIMA SI PRIOR

Offline Blackstar

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http://electroncafe.wordpress.com/2011/05/04/scientific-process-rage/
http://xkcd.com/683/
Also:


Yep, that's pretty good.

I just chided an author of a report on a website for using the word "confirmed" in their headline--when the actual paper doesn't use that term itself.

A few months back I was talking to a well-known scientist and he was saying how kids in school are taught "the scientific method" and that's not how science works at all. He said that science was much messier--and therefore much more interesting. He thought that if teachers were trained in teaching the real story, they'd be more effective in keeping kids interested.

Offline Robotbeat

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BTW, after looking at some CRISM images of the craters in question, I can see why they'd have a hard time detecting the traces of water with that instrument, whether the traces are there or not. The images, while supposedly having a resolution of ~16 meters/pixel, have a signal/noise ratio that leaves something to be desired. Really good for broad geographical survey, but would probably have difficulty seeing a swimming pool with much confidence.

For instance, this observation in Newton Crater (I think this is the site... can only really guess, but there are a bunch of CRISM observations stacked in this spot, which is unusual... and it's targeting gullies) shows what looks like something in the IR channel set to green (green = BD2210 (Al phyllosilicate or hydrated glass)) :
http://crism-map.jhuapl.edu/images/browseimages/2007_168/FRT00006456/FRT00006456_07_IF164L_PHY1.ll.png
http://crism-map.jhuapl.edu/details.php?data=frt_webmap_polygons&shape=1233&x=-157.315305&y=-39.362475

But doesn't show up in other observations of the same spot:
http://crism-map.jhuapl.edu/details.php?data=hrl_webmap_polygons&shape=3636&x=-157.33062&y=-39.316785

But the data is so noisy (and inconclusive!!! the spectroscopic data isn't uniquely explained by water) that it'd be difficult to say it holds the distinctive signature of water. But also rather difficult to say the signature isn't there. I mean, maybe it looks like something's there, but it could as easily be something else... CRISM just doesn't have the resolution or signal/noise to tell for sure.

If a single pixel is 16 meters... it would be incredibly easy for noise to mask an outburst of hydrated soil.

NOTE:I am not familiar with this instrument, I'm merely providing this image to show you how difficult it would be to rely on a single pixel to say yea or nay. At the same time, with some tweaks (i.e. super-resolution mode) and enough observations, it may be possible to add to the preponderance of evidence that this is, indeed, water (or shed doubt).

(first image is the IR image with green showing either Al-phyllosilicates or hydrated glass, with the second being a roughly-visible-light image of the area, the third being another IR image of the same wavelengths as the first but taken at another time but not showing the signature in the green, with the last picture showing another visible context image)
« Last Edit: 08/05/2011 04:06 am by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline notsorandom

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A few years back I did a project in Grad school using HiRISE. That is one awesome beast of a sensor. Up to 30cm in spatial resolution. CRISM is also pretty cool. It can measure up to 544 different wave lengths, as opposed to HiRISE's 3. As Robotbeat points out though its hard to work with features that are smaller then the sensor's pixels.

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