Author Topic: China launchers Q&A  (Read 43438 times)

Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #20 on: 09/09/2011 08:40 PM »
Here is another question on CZ-2C.

My understanding is that there were three basic versions of it:
(1) The initial 190-192 metric ton vehicle in use from 1974 till 1993 (four CZ-2 and eleven CZ-2C), actual payload of 1800-2100 kg;
(2) The Iridium version of 213-214 metric tons flown in 1997-2004 (seven Iridiums, TC-1, TC-2, SY-1 and SY-2) with stretched second stage, quoted payload of 2500-2800 kg;
(3) The current version of 233 metric tons flown since 2004 (10 vehicles) with stretched first stage, actual payload of 3900 kg.

Only one Chinese source gives some data for the current version, http://cn.cgwic.com/LaunchServices/LaunchVehicle/LM2C.html (note fuel load figures in the third row of the table which are different from 143+35 and 143+55 for the first two versions). Yet the difference from the Iridium version is easibly visible in photos at the same Taiyuan pad:

(upper -- 08 Dec 1997) (lower -- 11 Apr 2007)


In the upper photo, first stage from the lower blue ring to the interstage struts is equal to 3.5 levels of service structure, the second stage is another 2.5 levels high and the payload shroud is almost two levels more.

In the lower photo, first stage is definitely four levels high.

Mod Edit: Do not embed images
« Last Edit: 09/11/2011 08:48 PM by Ronsmytheiii »

Online Phillip Clark

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #21 on: 09/10/2011 07:29 AM »
Regarding the information on the link which Igor has provided:   http://cn.cgwic.com/LaunchServices/LaunchVehicle/LM2C.html

First, the launch record omits the launch failure of November 1974.

My understanding has always been that the November 1974 launch failure plus the FSW launches of 1975, 1976 and 1978 all used the original CZ-2 aka CZ-2A launch vehicle, with the 2C only being introduced in 1982.   Note that in Stan Black's listing the 1982 CZ-2C is "Y1", indicating the first flight.

Looking at the CZ-3B entry, I see that the differences between that and the CZ-3B/E are in the strap-on and first stage propellant masses: the second and third stages are identical.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2011 07:30 AM by Phillip Clark »

Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #22 on: 09/10/2011 08:52 AM »
The November 1974 failure is the known source of controversy :-)
CALT is known to attribute it to CZ-2 and all launches since 1975 to CZ-2C while CASC lists CZ-2C launches from 1982 only -- which makes more sense in my opinion even if the 1982 version differs from 1974/75 only in uprated engines.
I believe Stan Black's list inherits from a long http://www.9ifly.cn/thread-407-1-1.html topic at the Chinese forum www.9ifly.cn. Several CZ-3 numbers are still educated guess AFAIK but others has been confirmed by Chinese sources and documents. Short and full numbers are known for some vehicles -- for example, Sven Granh's FSW-14 was launched by CZ-2C number Y903210 or Y10 for short, and the Y802302 = Y2 vehicle pictured above was intended for 19 Aug 1983 launch.
By the way, we known the Long March 3 name since 1979 but when exactly Long March 1 and Long March 2 names were announced? When did it become known for sure that FB-1 and CZ-2 both existed? I found that both CZ-2 and CZ-2C names were known by January 1986 but when exactly CZ-2C was identified as the two-stage vehicle used in certain FSW launches?

Offline input~2

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #23 on: 09/10/2011 09:13 AM »
Here is another question on CZ-2C.
....
To add to this discussion, here are two tables extracted from CGWIC "LM-2C" leaflets respectively published in 2009 and 2011.
There are indeed differences in the various lengths..

Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #24 on: 09/10/2011 10:24 AM »
Input~2, thank you for the tables. It's very interesting to see even larger estimate of current CZ-2C launch mass, 245 metric tons. Don't know if this version has been already flown.

As usual, there is conflict within and between the two tables and the plain logic. One meter of CZ-2C tankage length with 3.35 m diameter is equivalent to 8.8 m3 of propellant and -- for UDMH/N2O4 -- to 10.5 tons of load. So when launch mass goes from 233 to 245 metric tons, you may expect stretching the vehicle one meter or so (which is indeed shown in the table) in either stage or both. Again, the first stage load supports the total mass increase but the stage lengths do not conform with other data. It seems that stage length is the less reliable parameter in such tables.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2011 10:27 AM by Liss »

Offline limen4

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #25 on: 09/10/2011 11:28 AM »
Finally an image from the August 1988 launch.
limen4, that is not the picture of the 1988 launch.
In the 05 Aug 1988 launch the spacecraft was of a Jianbing-1A type, i.e. a longer cylindro-conical one, such as in a well-known 1992 launch with Freja. But in the picture we see a typical conical Jianbing-1.
I've found seven other images of the launch in question (more than any other!) but I still don't know which launch it was.

Yes of course there is no guarantee that the image on the philatelic envelope shows really the Aug 5th 1988 launch. But Jianbing-1 (FSW-0) and Jianbing-1A (FSW-1) had the same design. As far as I know, only the camera system was changed for mapping purposes. The new spacecraft design you mentioned was only introduced by Jianbing-1B (FSW-2). In case of Freja a cylindrical adapter was added to the FSW-1 to accommodate the Freja payload.
My conclusion is that the image on the philatelic envelope could show the Aug 5th 1988 launch. I upload images of the FSW-1-payload used for the Aug 5th 1988 launch (a copy from a sticker) and the arrangement of Freja and the corresponding FSW-1 payload. Enclosed the philatelic envelop I also found a (very bad) b/w copy from a Remin Ribao newspaper cutout, which shows the launch on Aug 5th 1988.


Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #26 on: 09/10/2011 11:37 AM »
limen4, thank you! Now I strongly believe you are correct.
By the way, launch time in Renmin Ribao is given as 16:30 Beijing Summer Time, now abandoned.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2011 12:30 PM by Liss »

Offline Stan Black

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #27 on: 09/10/2011 01:14 PM »
The November 1974 failure is the known source of controversy :-)
CALT is known to attribute it to CZ-2 and all launches since 1975 to CZ-2C while CASC lists CZ-2C launches from 1982 only -- which makes more sense in my opinion even if the 1982 version differs from 1974/75 only in uprated engines.
I believe Stan Black's list inherits from a long http://www.9ifly.cn/thread-407-1-1.html topic at the Chinese forum www.9ifly.cn. Several CZ-3 numbers are still educated guess AFAIK but others has been confirmed by Chinese sources and documents. Short and full numbers are known for some vehicles -- for example, Sven Granh's FSW-14 was launched by CZ-2C number Y903210 or Y10 for short, and the Y802302 = Y2 vehicle pictured above was intended for 19 Aug 1983 launch.
By the way, we known the Long March 3 name since 1979 but when exactly Long March 1 and Long March 2 names were announced? When did it become known for sure that FB-1 and CZ-2 both existed? I found that both CZ-2 and CZ-2C names were known by January 1986 but when exactly CZ-2C was identified as the two-stage vehicle used in certain FSW launches?

http://www.9ifly.cn/thread-407-1-1.html
That is a very good source of information, which I tried to make more accessible to people on this forum.

From what I learnt I found references to CZ-4B Y14 for Haiyang-2.

On that forum CZ-2C 长征二号丙 is also listed with two additional versions: 加长 and 再加长

I’ve re-visited previous post on this forum and I cannot find a fourth version.

Taiyuan
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=7477.msg128652#msg128652
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=12961.msg312760#msg312760
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=16754.msg393895#msg393895

Jiuquan
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19423.msg502036#msg502036
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19753.msg514884#msg514884

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25820.msg767159#msg767159
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26188.msg785348#msg785348

Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #28 on: 09/10/2011 02:36 PM »
Found a mention of the 245 ton version in a Chinese source -- Taikong Tansuo 2007 #8. Unfortunately no more details in the text.

http://www.qikan.com.cn/MagDetails/1009-6205/2007/8.html
http://special.cpst.net.cn/19992009/ht/hj/_/241594199.html

Quote
1978年,在长征二号火箭的基础上,经过适应性的技术改进设计,研制成功一种新的运载火箭——长征二号丙。火箭全长约40米,卫星整流罩最大直径3.35米,起飞质量245吨,近地轨道运载能力达到2.5~3.9吨。

Google Translate:

Quote
In 1978, the Long March II rocket, based on adaptive technologies through improved design, developed a new launch vehicle - the Long March II C. Rockets for about 40 meters, the satellite fairing diameter 3.35 m, take-off mass 245 tons, carrying capacity of near-Earth orbit 2.5 to 3.9 t.

Even earlier mention exists in the FSW-19 launch report of 2004 which used for the first time the third CZ-2C version:
http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2004-08-30/05243528856s.shtml

Quote
此次进行发射的“长征二号丙”运载火箭长41.9米,起飞质量245吨。

Quote
The launch of the "Long March II C" carrier rocket length 41.9 m, take-off mass 245 tons.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2011 03:31 PM by Liss »

Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #29 on: 09/10/2011 03:29 PM »
Quote
Yet the difference from the Iridium version is easibly visible in photos at the same Taiyuan pad:

(upper -- 08 Dec 1997) (lower -- 11 Apr 2007)

From the pictures above, I'd said that the shroud and second stage are identical but the first stage is some 2.5 meters longer (and have fins of course).

2.5 meters layer of propellant is some 26 tons of load. Adding tankage mass and fins we'd probably have 2 more tons. Seems to be generally compatible with total mass increase of 213 to 245 tons rather than to 233 tons. More detailed image of the newest vehicle may provide for more accurate estimate.

« Last Edit: 09/10/2011 07:02 PM by Liss »

Offline input~2

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #30 on: 09/10/2011 04:36 PM »
Found a mention of the 245 ton version...
Interestingly, Google gives the following results:
+"长征二号丙"  +"213吨" (CZ-2C/213t)  2207 results
+"长征二号丙"  +"233吨" (CZ-2C/233t)  0 result
+"长征二号丙"  +"245吨" (CZ-2C/245t)  416 results

I am wondering if 233t is not a typo for 213t in the CGWIC litterature ???

CALT has a table for an "improved" version (长征二号丙改进型运载火箭) with a mass of 213 t
http://www.calt.com/cpyfw/yzhj/cp/2009123015071136e9f8.html
(dated 2009-12)
« Last Edit: 09/10/2011 04:45 PM by input~2 »

Offline Stan Black

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #31 on: 09/10/2011 04:40 PM »
Found a mention of the 245 ton version...
Interestingly, Google gives the following results:
+"长征二号丙"  +"213吨" (CZ-2C/213t)  2207 results
+"长征二号丙"  +"233吨" (CZ-2C/233t)  0 result
+"长征二号丙"  +"245吨" (CZ-2C/245t)  416 results

I am wondering if 233t is not a typo for 213t in the CGWIC litterature ???

CALT has a table for an improved version (长征二号丙改进型运载火箭)with a mass of 213 t
http://www.calt.com/cpyfw/yzhj/cp/2009123015071136e9f8.html

And the CZ-2D is 250t
http://www.spacechina.com/cpyfw_yhxt_yzhj_Details.shtml?recno=60472

Offline input~2

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #32 on: 09/10/2011 04:51 PM »
And the CZ-2D is 250t
http://www.spacechina.com/cpyfw_yhxt_yzhj_Details.shtml?recno=60472
Here my 2011 CGWIC datasheet gives 249.6t which seems consistent ;)
Only their website gives 232.7t :(
http://cn.cgwic.com/LaunchServices/LaunchVehicle/LM2D.html

with an easy-to-detect typo in this page
http://www.cgwic.com/LaunchServices/LaunchVehicle/LM2D.html
Quote
Lift-off Mass (t)            2961.6kN

Conclusion:
check twice before using CGWIC numbers ;D
 
« Last Edit: 09/10/2011 05:09 PM by input~2 »

Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #33 on: 09/10/2011 07:06 PM »
It seems that 233 tons migrated from then-2D to 2C :-)
Well, CNSA lists length of the 2004 CZ-2C as 41.947 meters -- http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n1081/n7529/n7935/11488.html

Offline input~2

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #34 on: 09/10/2011 07:44 PM »
For the total length of the 245t version, CGWIC seems once again isolated with its 43m value...

Offline Stan Black

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #35 on: 09/11/2011 10:19 AM »
Quote
Yet the difference from the Iridium version is easibly visible in photos at the same Taiyuan pad:

(upper -- 08 Dec 1997) (lower -- 11 Apr 2007)

From the pictures above, I'd said that the shroud and second stage are identical but the first stage is some 2.5 meters longer (and have fins of course).

2.5 meters layer of propellant is some 26 tons of load. Adding tankage mass and fins we'd probably have 2 more tons. Seems to be generally compatible with total mass increase of 213 to 245 tons rather than to 233 tons. More detailed image of the newest vehicle may provide for more accurate estimate.



So the 162 fuel load figure, and 213 lift-off mass are misleading?

 
 
Chang Zheng 2C
Stage 1
Propellant
Mass
Stage 2
Propellant
Mass
Total
Lift-off
Mass
 
 
Missions
长征二号丙14335192Jianbing 1
Jianbing 1A
长征二号丙(加长)14355213Shiyan Weixing 1&2
Iridium
Tance
长征二号丙(再加长)17255245 Jianbing 4
Shijian 8
Haiyang 1B
Yaogan Weixing 6
Shijian 11
Huanjing 1
« Last Edit: 09/11/2011 04:57 PM by Stan Black »

Offline Liss

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #36 on: 09/11/2011 10:34 AM »
I think so.
The 172 and 55 ton fuel loads are compatible with durations of engine burns for SJ-11-03 launch which are barely visible in launch center photos.
Stage lengths are beyond repair :-)

Offline Stan Black

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #37 on: 09/11/2011 05:28 PM »
I think so.
The 172 and 55 ton fuel loads are compatible with durations of engine burns for SJ-11-03 launch which are barely visible in launch center photos.
Stage lengths are beyond repair :-)

Found a break down of lengths for the CZ-4A
http://www.space.cetin.net.cn/docs/ht9902/ht990206.htm

Offline Stan Black

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #38 on: 09/12/2011 02:34 PM »
I think so.
The 172 and 55 ton fuel loads are compatible with durations of engine burns for SJ-11-03 launch which are barely visible in launch center photos.
Stage lengths are beyond repair :-)

Found a break down of lengths for the CZ-4A
http://www.space.cetin.net.cn/docs/ht9902/ht990206.htm

I give up… I too cannot figure out those stage lengths

CZ-2Dhttp://www.space.cetin.net.cn/docs/ht9712/ht971208.htm
CZ-2Ehttp://www.space.cetin.net.cn/docs/ht9801/ht980111.htm
CZ-3Bhttp://www.space.cetin.net.cn/docs/ht9810/ht981014.htm
CZ-4Bhttp://www.space.cetin.net.cn/docs/ht9905/ht990507.htm
« Last Edit: 09/12/2011 02:35 PM by Stan Black »

Offline jcm

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Re: China launchers Q&A
« Reply #39 on: 09/14/2011 01:27 AM »
I'm still confused about the  SD, SM and SMA kick stages used for Iridium, Tan Ce and HJ-1A/B - lots of different versions of mass and size out there. One stage has 2620 kg propellant 309 kg dry (described in a paper at IAC 2004) - I gather this is the Tan Ce's SM? One is apparently only 22 kg propellant - is this the SMA?
And the SD had a motor which was 125 kg prop 33 kg dry but probably 550 kg total dry for the stage (rather than just the motor).
 Clarification and confirmation would be welcome.
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