Author Topic: H3 development update thread  (Read 49150 times)

Offline zaitcev

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H3 development update thread
« on: 05/05/2010 12:07 AM »
« Last Edit: 07/02/2015 10:23 AM by Galactic Penguin SST »

Offline meiza

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #1 on: 05/05/2010 11:26 PM »
Interesting, to use an expander (bleed) on a first stage. This has been proposed before but has been left unexplored for some reason.

Offline Fuji

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #2 on: 10/18/2012 05:48 AM »
Here is good background information.

Mitsubishi Pushes For H-IIA And H-IIB Replacement
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_15_2012_p28-504957.xml

Quote
About a quarter of Japan's space engineers—those who have had the most experience developing the H-II series and its predecessors—will retire by 2020, Asada said at the Japan International Aerospace Exhibition here last week. By 2020, an engineer who was 25 in the mid-1980s, during early work on the original H-II rocket, will be around 60.


Offline Fuji

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #4 on: 05/15/2013 05:04 AM »
H-X (H-3) development might be started next JFY.
In Japan, positive news are reported. It will be including next JFY budget request.
But budget problem is still exist. So, may be started small budget.

A first flight is targeted for 2021.
« Last Edit: 05/15/2013 05:32 AM by Fuji »

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Offline woods170

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #6 on: 05/29/2013 11:27 AM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.
« Last Edit: 05/29/2013 12:13 PM by woods170 »

Offline Prober

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #7 on: 05/29/2013 02:11 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.
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Offline woods170

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #8 on: 05/29/2013 05:40 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.

Won't become a reality. CNES recently said something very similar about Ariane 6. Won't happen either. (the "half the price" bit I mean)
« Last Edit: 05/29/2013 05:40 PM by woods170 »

Offline Prober

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #9 on: 05/29/2013 07:09 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.

Won't become a reality. CNES recently said something very similar about Ariane 6. Won't happen either. (the "half the price" bit I mean)

Any cost savings at this time are like a must, so I wish them well in the project.  Also hope the USA still has some ties to JAXA and can get these cost savings ideas/designs transferred to Delta.
 
You missed something I hope wasn't a translation issue.  It said "commercial" in that statement.  As you know most of the current launches are for JAXA.   
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Offline woods170

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #10 on: 05/29/2013 07:49 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.

Won't become a reality. CNES recently said something very similar about Ariane 6. Won't happen either. (the "half the price" bit I mean)

Any cost savings at this time are like a must, so I wish them well in the project.  Also hope the USA still has some ties to JAXA and can get these cost savings ideas/designs transferred to Delta.
 
You missed something I hope wasn't a translation issue.  It said "commercial" in that statement.  As you know most of the current launches are for JAXA.   

No, I didn't miss that. Like ESA, the Japanese launchers are developed under auspices of the space agency. In this case JAXA. It then will be put to work as a commercial launcher. This is not Mitsubishi saying: "Hey, we're gonna develop H-3 on our own and market it commercially". This is Mitsubishi saying: "Hey JAXA, we have a proposal for an HII-A replacement and guess what... it has a chance of being fielded commercially. Would you kindly supply us with the funds needed to develop this thing?". With the latter they 'sold' a government advice council on the viability of their proposal and now that government council is giving the advice to actually fund and develop H-3. With Japanese taxpayers money naturally.

Offline Oli

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #11 on: 06/02/2013 05:03 AM »
Quote from: jg1968
More on Japan's proposed H-X:
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Japan/H-X/Description/Text.htm
http://archive.ists.or.jp/upload_pdf/2011-a-21.pdf
http://archive.ists.or.jp/upload_pdf/2009-a-04.pdf

Interesting.

It uses a new open exander cycle engine, LE-X, with a thrust of 1448kN (vac) and an ISP of 432.

The core stage has two LE-X. Then there is a second stage AND a small third stage for GTO launches (curious). Apparently the version without boosters can put 4t to GTO. For 6t to GTO the launcher requires 4 additional boosters.

I guess it depends on how cheap those LE-X will be...

Offline Fuji

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #12 on: 09/03/2013 06:51 AM »
Latest study material.
H-3 family launch capability (upside) and H-2A/H-2B launch capability illustration.

Offline IRobot

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #13 on: 09/03/2013 07:18 AM »
With the ongoing currency war and the massive yen deface to come, they might even become commercially attractive.

Offline Oli

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #14 on: 09/03/2013 02:35 PM »
Quote from: Fuji
Latest study material.
H-3 family launch capability (upside) and H-2A/H-2B launch capability illustration.

Interesting. Pretty much resembles the liquid A6 configuration, with LE-X instead of Vulcain 3 (almost same specs).
« Last Edit: 09/03/2013 02:37 PM by Oli »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #15 on: 11/26/2013 03:32 PM »
LINK: http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20130918D17HH036.htm

Wednesday, September 18, 2013
Mitsubishi Heavy Eyes Commercialization Of Rocket Tech

TOKYO -- Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. is also eyeing commercialization of low-cost rocket launches in line with the nation's official strategy.

It took a giant leap in its bid to become a profitable space company on Aug. 4 when it launched one of its H-IIB rockets for the first time after it took over full control of launch services from Japan's space agency, at the Tanegashima Space Center in Kagoshima Prefecture.

The No. 4 H-IIB rocket carried into space the Konotori cargo transporter, which brought food and supplies to the International Space Station.

Ceding authority

For the launch of the first three H-IIB rockets, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) gave the final go-ahead after analyzing weather and other conditions. This was the first launch in which JAXA handed over all decision-making authority to Mitsubishi Heavy.

The company had previously been given the reins to launch the less powerful H-IIA rocket, and the Aug. 4 H-IIB launch marked another step in the privatization of Japan's space program.

The H-IIA and H-IIB are capable of putting satellites weighing up to 6 and 8 metric tons, respectively, into geostationary orbit.

With JAXA ceding its authority to Mitsubishi Heavy, the leading Japanese heavy machinery maker will be able to seek orders for launching domestic and foreign-made satellites of various sizes.

"We hope to market our services in Asia, the Middle East and elsewhere," said Yoichi Kujirai, executive vice president and head of aerospace systems at Mitsubishi Heavy.

The depreciation of the yen, coupled with JAXA's decision, has created "business opportunities for us at last," a Mitsubishi Heavy marketing official said.

Uncompetitive

The H-IIA and H-IIB face tough competition from overseas. The U.S. and Russia have launched more than 300 rockets between them; Japan has launched just over 20.

Mitsubishi does not disclose earnings from its rocket launch business, only that it is "not in the red," according to an official, suggesting that the business is not highly profitable for the company.

"Business is tough, but we hope to accumulate successful results," Executive Vice President Tatsuhiko Nojima said.

The rocket is "overlooked on the commercial market because of its high launch cost," said a JAXA official.

The H-IIA has secured only one launch order from abroad. The cost of each launch is estimated at nearly 10 billion yen ($100 million) for the H-IIA and 15 billion yen for the H-IIB, much higher than the global average of around 7 billion yen. Although the two rockets have high success rates, they do not compete with rivals on price.

According to Mitsubishi Heavy, it needs to carry out four launches a year to support its H-II rocket production technology. But only three launches are planned for this business year.

The government recently decided to begin a project in fiscal 2014 to develop an internationally competitive rocket, tentatively called the H-III. The successor to the H-IIA is expected to cost less while continuing to be as reliable. The project will involve JAXA, Mitsubishi Heavy, IHI Corp. and others.

Going private, cheaper

The high cost of the H-IIA program is the result of a government policy that regarded space as a testing ground for advanced technologies. The H-III project will seek to halve the cost of launches to encourage more commercial endeavors.

In past projects, the government decided on basic designs and then farmed out the development of rockets to private companies. The H-III program will take into account opinions and input from Mitsubishi Heavy and other companies from its initial stage.

The H-III project, with its slogan of "a rocket incorporating private-sector power," will consider the capabilities of solid-fueled rockets, and study new approaches to fuel efficiency and other cost-saving techniques. Foreign companies may also be asked to participate in the development of the engines and some other core components.

------

Image Captions:

Image 1
Mitsubishi Heavy on Aug. 4 launches an H-IIB rocket after taking full control from JAXA at the Tanegashima Space Center in Kagoshima Prefecture. (Kyodo)

Image 2
Yoichi Kujirai, executive vice president and head of aerospace systems at Mitsubishi Heavy, speaks to the press after the successful launch of an H-IIB rocket on Aug. 4.

Image 3
An H-III rocket rests on a launch pad in this conceptual image provided by JAXA.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #16 on: 11/26/2013 04:19 PM »
LINK to MHI Business Briefing on Aerospace Systems (Includes H-III Dev Project): http://www.mhi.co.jp/en/finance/library/business/pdf/aero2012.pdf

Online edkyle99

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #17 on: 03/07/2014 01:25 PM »
JAXA requested bids for H-III work on Feb 27, 2014.  This must be for R&D at this stage.

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1403/04h3rocket/#.UxnVjs5Af6c

The claim that H-III will be cheaper and therefore competitive is identical to the claims made for H-IIA and even H-II.  The truth seems to be that JAXA is planning for a bigger rocket with more lifting capability that is in many ways a growth variant of H-IIA/H-IIB.  The big difference is a core that can lift itself for smaller payload missions, and a single core that can handle both H-IIA and H-IIB class missions, plus a bit more, by varying the number of solid boosters.  I suppose that maintaining production of only one core instead of two should save a bit of money, but I still don't see the commercial competitiveness.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 03/07/2014 01:27 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline Oli

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #18 on: 03/07/2014 03:11 PM »
...but I still don't see the commercial competitiveness.

It seems to be a rocket optimized for institutional missions. I don't know why JAXA should get into the comsat business, IMO the market cannot support that many players. It probably barely pays off for ESA with 50%+ market share.

Offline baldusi

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #19 on: 03/07/2014 05:41 PM »
...but I still don't see the commercial competitiveness.

It seems to be a rocket optimized for institutional missions. I don't know why JAXA should get into the comsat business, IMO the market cannot support that many players. It probably barely pays off for ESA with 50%+ market share.
And they launch from 30deg. So they have to spend more energy than even the Americans. With Japanese labor I don't see them being very competitive. But they engine should be a lot cheaper. The LE-7 is an RS-25 class engine, and probably cost wise very similar, with an annual production around of 4. The new core would use two of the cheaper LE-X (8?9?).
But cost is not only on the core, but on the ops. If they redesign the ground ops, have a true single core, simplified fairing offerings, and apply some of the low cost approach on avionics and GSE of the Epsilon, then they might lower costs.
The only issue is that by going the strap-a-solid for payload flexibility, they are sticking to vertical assembly. Will they do like Atlas V, and use an MLP, or should they do like Delta IV should have done and have checkout and integration done in an HIF time on the pad just for strap-on and payload integration.

Offline Oli

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #20 on: 03/07/2014 06:47 PM »
The LE-7 is an RS-25 class engine, and probably cost wise very similar

Only in terms of the cycle, otherwise not quite. The specs of the LE-7A vs RS-25

Thrust: 1,098 vs 2,279kN
CC pressure: 12.0 vs 20.6MPa
ISP (sl/vac): 338/440 vs 366/452s

Its actually at the upper end of what you could do with a GG (pressure, isp), surprising they went with SC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LE-7

Offline Lars_J

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #21 on: 03/26/2014 02:35 AM »
New information from JAXA about the H-III?

http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2014/03/20140325_rocket_e.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Quote
[ Special features ]
- The main liquid-engine core rockets will be the same specifications for all launch vehicles in the new series so that manufacturing and operation can be more efficiently performed.
- Up to six solid rocket boosters (depending on the needs) can be attached for a Geostationary Transfer Orbit (GTO) mission to be able to flexibly cope with diversified needs.

[ Development schedule ]
The development will begin in early Japan Fiscal Year 2014 targeting a maiden launch in JFY 2020.

[ Development details ]
- Launch vehicle development (structure, electronics/avionics, propulsion system, payload fairing)
- Engine development (for the first and second stages)
- Solid rocket booster development
- Launch pad, launch site ground facility development

So a modified H-IIB, but with a core capable of being flying without solids?
« Last Edit: 03/26/2014 02:36 AM by Lars_J »

Offline Comet

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #22 on: 03/26/2014 11:44 AM »
At the IAF spring meeting in Paris last week, it was named "H-X".

Offline Prober

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #23 on: 03/26/2014 12:36 PM »
At the IAF spring meeting in Paris last week, it was named "H-X".

Wow, Launch cost reduction by Half.   Impressive program.

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Offline baldusi

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #24 on: 03/26/2014 01:52 PM »
I hope they take a hard look at all the Delta IV lessons because it was supposed to be the dirty cheap launcher and ended up as a black sheep that only survived because of very questionable tactics of its parent company. I hope they are successful.

Online edkyle99

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #25 on: 03/26/2014 03:09 PM »
At the IAF spring meeting in Paris last week, it was named "H-X".
Wow, Launch cost reduction by Half.   Impressive program.
In my opinion, that "reduction by half" claim is based on the fact that both H-2A and H-2B will be replaced by this new vehicle.  Two production lines reduced to one.  That doesn't make it a cheap rocket.

 - Ed Kyle

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #26 on: 03/26/2014 06:43 PM »
At the IAF spring meeting in Paris last week, it was named "H-X".
Wow, Launch cost reduction by Half.   Impressive program.
In my opinion, that "reduction by half" claim is based on the fact that both H-2A and H-2B will be replaced by this new vehicle.  Two production lines reduced to one.  That doesn't make it a cheap rocket.

 - Ed Kyle

You might be right Ed.....However I get the impression Mitsubishi wishes to be a serious player in the launch business.   Noticed this last launcher (GPM) was cheaper to make. The program now in place seems designed to be a continuous cost reduction, could add up real fast.

« Last Edit: 03/26/2014 06:51 PM by Prober »
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #27 on: 03/26/2014 09:44 PM »
At the IAF spring meeting in Paris last week, it was named "H-X".
Wow, Launch cost reduction by Half.   Impressive program.
In my opinion, that "reduction by half" claim is based on the fact that both H-2A and H-2B will be replaced by this new vehicle.  Two production lines reduced to one.  That doesn't make it a cheap rocket.

 - Ed Kyle

Since the H-3 is not developing new engines or new tooling. The development cost should be minimal.

Of course the cost estimate and the actual cost might be quite different.

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #28 on: 03/26/2014 11:45 PM »
At the IAF spring meeting in Paris last week, it was named "H-X".
Wow, Launch cost reduction by Half.   Impressive program.
In my opinion, that "reduction by half" claim is based on the fact that both H-2A and H-2B will be replaced by this new vehicle.  Two production lines reduced to one.  That doesn't make it a cheap rocket.

 - Ed Kyle

Since the H-3 is not developing new engines or new tooling. The development cost should be minimal.

Of course the cost estimate and the actual cost might be quite different.

Nope, new first and second stage engines and new SRBs.......  ::)
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #29 on: 07/31/2014 06:57 PM »
In many ways, H3 and A6 seem to tread the same path now, yet in very different countries / cultures.

Its a very difficult challenge to address a low cost LV involving solids/hydrolox. Delta IV went from the potential of cheap to the reality of extreme expense. Commonality to reduce cost fights optimality to achieve vehicle performance. Presumption of high launch frequency - a common political over reach, predestines failure to reach cost targets before vehicle obsolescence.

And then the cycle starts anew, as the components of the launch system including vehicle either are shared/not evolved enough and the past cost/performance/scale burdens are inherited from the past, or too much is novel for not enough gain in this cycle of development.

Atlas was a excellent study in caution from a technical/operations perspective. Incremental refinement that invested but did not over invest in the future. But perhaps this caution indirectly and unavoidably caused a vulnerability in the form of dependancy - if say one could have determined the future, would Atlas V with an American kerolox engine (perhaps from TRW?) from the Atlas II days ... been as much of a success? Or was the dependency/outsourcing also much of the success of Atlas V?

Likewise, Musk added significant risk in F9.1.1/F9R. Have though about kevinrf's "every LV over reaches market demand" while watching the roll out of it.

As well as the potentially successful overreach of ATK's Advanced Boosters for SLS as follow on post EM 1/2 flights, against the backdrop of an OrbATK merger and unclear follow-on for SLS given potential global economic instabilities being signalled.

The nature of industry integration (Japan/Europe) or of CONOPs operation (Musk's reusability) or of forcing strategic funding (ATK/Russia/others) as competing means to address the future launch services, the ways forward don't seem clear.

"What you can do" vs. "what you should do" is clouded by industrial biases/practices/social/culture issues.

Clearly the only way forward is to reuse/leverage/scale/volume the past propulsion w/o additional costs or unneeded new development. In this case, common solids with Epsilon (is this possible?), a common engine for US/1 stages (works against optimal stage design), low cost common stage/tank construction. None of this was possible for A5/DIV. And it goes against both European and Japanese practice/culture. Its even worse if one talks about pad flows/GSE/"issues".

Also clear is that should Musk get practical reusable launch services, he'll own them globally for 5-10 years just with what is already developed and launching at the moment. Meaning many countries LV's might likely never see much launch frequency, making follow-on development of future LV's much more uncertain/uneconomic.

Pride/reliance could become very costly. How do very smart people facing this choose how to play out the near future?

Offline baldusi

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #30 on: 08/11/2014 03:09 AM »
If they use an expander open cycle for the upper stage engine, they could probably do a niner like the F9, just with H2. So at least in that sense the Japanese don't appear to be doing any sort of dead end development.

Offline Proponent

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #31 on: 08/11/2014 09:46 PM »
Interesting, to use an expander (bleed) on a first stage. This has been proposed before but has been left unexplored for some reason.

As I understand it, it's tough to get high pressure with an expander cycle, and that's an issue for an engine that must operate at sea level.  But if it's an open expander cycle (has that ever been used before?), then that eases the problem a bit.

EDIT: "ease" to "eases"
« Last Edit: 08/19/2014 03:37 AM by Proponent »

Offline Damon Hill

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #32 on: 08/11/2014 10:34 PM »
The LE-X engine is an open expander-bleed cycle; dumping the hydrogen used in the expander wastes the chemical energy content (though it may be manifolded into the exhaust nozzle downstream of the throat), but generates more turbopump power since the expander sees more of a vacuum rather than trying to stuff mass into the high pressure combustion chamber in a fully closed cycle as the RL10 and Vinci engines do.  It's really more of a greatly scaled-up LE-5A/B, as used on the second stage.

https://www.mhi-global.com/company/technology/review/pdf/e484/e484036.pdf

There are a lot of ways to build a rocket engine, with sub-sets of design paths, and I'm having fun trying to discover and follow those different designs.

Offline baldusi

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #33 on: 08/11/2014 11:14 PM »
If you like that look for a full flow expander that Aerojet worked on.

Offline Pipcard

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #34 on: 04/08/2015 01:02 PM »
This article shows a CGI image by JAXA of the H-III being raised from a horizontal position on a strongback.



-Are the solid rocket boosters small and light enough for this to work, or does it have to be all-liquid?
-Will the VAB be dismantled and replaced with a horizontal integration facility, or will the rocket still be assembled vertically, then lowered to a horizontal position for transport to the launch pad?
« Last Edit: 04/08/2015 01:05 PM by Pipcard »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #35 on: 04/08/2015 06:50 PM »
This article shows a CGI image by JAXA of the H-III being raised from a horizontal position on a strongback.



-Are the solid rocket boosters small and light enough for this to work, or does it have to be all-liquid?
-Will the VAB be dismantled and replaced with a horizontal integration facility, or will the rocket still be assembled vertically, then lowered to a horizontal position for transport to the launch pad?
appears to use the H-II family pads. Other info shows that H-III will be made launch site flexible like Epsilon so there may be additional pads elsewhere
Also the TEL design in some previous graphic show it is only employed on the core alone version but that was 2013.

EDIT: Existing MLs will be modified and reused for H-III (H-X)
« Last Edit: 04/11/2015 01:09 AM by russianhalo117 »

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #36 on: 04/10/2015 10:08 AM »
Latest report on the H-III - it has passed the mission definition and system readiness review phase.

Looks like the team is still looking at the core stages with the number of engines on both stages still undecided (2-3 for the 1st stage and 1-2 for the 2nd), and they seems to have went back to vertical integration.

Hmm....while I still hold on to some expectations, I'm sure that some fans of a certain SoCal aerospace company will say that this one will also be "obsolete by next Monday".  ::)
« Last Edit: 04/10/2015 10:08 AM by Galactic Penguin SST »
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Offline Fuji

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #37 on: 04/10/2015 12:41 PM »
Latest report on the H-III - it has passed the mission definition and system readiness review phase.

Looks like the team is still looking at the core stages with the number of engines on both stages still undecided (2-3 for the 1st stage and 1-2 for the 2nd), and they seems to have went back to vertical integration.

SDR is finished and agreed transition to the preliminary design phase.

The team is decided 1st stage engines number are selectable 2 or 3.
2nd stage number of engines  (1 or 2) are not defined yet.
Modified SRBs are selectable 0 or 2 or 4.
Launch pad ML2 is upgraded for this rocket.

This next generation rocket's name is not defined yet.  H-III is not official name.

Offline Pipcard

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #38 on: 04/10/2015 03:26 PM »
So the solid boosters will mostly be the same as H-IIA/B instead of having two to six smaller SRBs?

If H-III and H-X aren't official names, what else would they call it? H-IIC?

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #39 on: 04/10/2015 03:30 PM »
So the solid boosters will mostly be the same as H-IIA/B instead of having two to six smaller SRBs?

If H-III and H-X aren't official names, what else would they call it? H-IIC?
Yes, they will be a derivative of the SRB/A A3 version employed on Epsilon LV and H-IIB, BUT with different attachment and separation system.

As for naming I can't say except MHI calls it only H-III and JAXA calls it H-X in most documents.

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #40 on: 04/10/2015 03:35 PM »
It seems that Japanese media is reporting a target cost of 50 billion yen (~$41M US) for the baseline version - if so that's a little bit higher than what I think for the (similar performance) basic F9R....but not by much. If they really can hit that target the Japanese might actually have some chance of getting a foothold in the market for the very first time.  ;)
« Last Edit: 04/10/2015 03:37 PM by Galactic Penguin SST »
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Offline baldusi

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #41 on: 04/10/2015 06:32 PM »
Looks very Atlas V like. Does it has some defined target performances?

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #42 on: 04/10/2015 09:08 PM »
This is an update thread. Lets move H-III discussions here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37263.0
« Last Edit: 04/11/2015 01:08 AM by russianhalo117 »

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #43 on: 04/10/2015 10:25 PM »
Looks very Atlas V like. Does it has some defined target performances?

6-7 metric tons /GSO.
H-IIA is 4.6 ton, H-IIB is 5.5 ton.

Offline yoichi

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #44 on: 07/02/2015 04:46 AM »
http://global.jaxa.jp/press/2015/07/20150702_h3.html

Announcement of the Official Naming of the Next Generation Launch Vehicle

The National Research and Development Agency, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) is proud to announce the official naming of the Next Generation Launch Vehicle currently under development as follows. The name was decided in coordination with the prime contractor (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd.)
 We will continue to develop the Next Generation Launch Vehicle in order to achieve flexible and diversified demands.

Name: H3 Launch Vehicle (Abbreviation: H3)
The major reasons for the selection is as follows:

The “H” stands for a successful heritage of our H-IIA/H-IIB Launch Vehicles.
The “3” implies our innovative challenge.

http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2015/07/files/20150702_rocket_j.pdf
« Last Edit: 07/02/2015 05:13 AM by yoichi »

Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #45 on: 07/02/2015 10:09 AM »
http://global.jaxa.jp/press/2015/07/20150702_h3.html

Announcement of the Official Naming of the Next Generation Launch Vehicle

The National Research and Development Agency, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) is proud to announce the official naming of the Next Generation Launch Vehicle currently under development as follows. The name was decided in coordination with the prime contractor (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd.)
 We will continue to develop the Next Generation Launch Vehicle in order to achieve flexible and diversified demands.

Name: H3 Launch Vehicle (Abbreviation: H3)
The major reasons for the selection is as follows:

The “H” stands for a successful heritage of our H-IIA/H-IIB Launch Vehicles.
The “3” implies our innovative challenge.

http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2015/07/files/20150702_rocket_j.pdf

In other news, it looks like they have settled on 1 140 kN thrust engine on the upper stage - which according to Japanese reports would be an upgrade of the existing LE-5B rather than a new engine.

The first stage will have either 2 or 3 new 1.5 MN class engines (LE-9) - I guess it will be 2 on the GTO bound versions with SRBs and 3 on the baseline SSO version? The SRBs will have an average thrust of 2.2 MN.

It seems that Japanese media is reporting a target cost of 50 billion yen (~$41M US) for the baseline version - if so that's a little bit higher than what I think for the (similar performance) basic F9R....but not by much. If they really can hit that target the Japanese might actually have some chance of getting a foothold in the market for the very first time.  ;)

OK it's 5B yen not 50, but the target cost is holding. It won't be a game changer, but $40M US for a 4+t SSO launcher might be able to sink the Ariane 62, Vega-E and Antares 200.....  ::)
« Last Edit: 07/02/2015 10:12 AM by Galactic Penguin SST »
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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #46 on: 07/02/2015 11:01 AM »
Well, I applaud them for this! It will be an exciting project of the nature that Vulcan is.
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Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #47 on: 07/02/2015 03:44 PM »
http://global.jaxa.jp/press/2015/07/20150702_h3.html

Announcement of the Official Naming of the Next Generation Launch Vehicle

The National Research and Development Agency, Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) is proud to announce the official naming of the Next Generation Launch Vehicle currently under development as follows. The name was decided in coordination with the prime contractor (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd.)
 We will continue to develop the Next Generation Launch Vehicle in order to achieve flexible and diversified demands.

Name: H3 Launch Vehicle (Abbreviation: H3)
The major reasons for the selection is as follows:

The “H” stands for a successful heritage of our H-IIA/H-IIB Launch Vehicles.
The “3” implies our innovative challenge.

http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2015/07/files/20150702_rocket_j.pdf

In other news, it looks like they have settled on 1 140 kN thrust engine on the upper stage - which according to Japanese reports would be an upgrade of the existing LE-5B rather than a new engine.

The first stage will have either 2 or 3 new 1.5 MN class engines (LE-9) - I guess it will be 2 on the GTO bound versions with SRBs and 3 on the baseline SSO version? The SRBs will have an average thrust of 2.2 MN.

It seems that Japanese media is reporting a target cost of 50 billion yen (~$41M US) for the baseline version - if so that's a little bit higher than what I think for the (similar performance) basic F9R....but not by much. If they really can hit that target the Japanese might actually have some chance of getting a foothold in the market for the very first time.  ;)

OK it's 5B yen not 50, but the target cost is holding. It won't be a game changer, but $40M US for a 4+t SSO launcher might be able to sink the Ariane 62, Vega-E and Antares 200.....  ::)

Yes, it is an upgraded LE-5B, which has potential to get new designation LE-5C upon project completion because of enhancements and next gen design for additive manufacturing. The upgraded engine will be replaced with a new engine as part of a future upgrade package, which may become H-IIIA. This replacement is not planned till a minimum of a decade from now.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2015 03:00 AM by russianhalo117 »

Offline catdlr

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #48 on: 07/04/2015 12:06 AM »
Press Conference on H3 rocket

Scheduled for Jul 8, 2015
National Research and Development Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), 2014 to the development of H3 rocket towards to it embarked on a (2014) year, 2020 year of testing machine launch Unit 1, to implement the current basic design doing. About H3 rocket under development, its aim appearance and system do the description of the beam outline. -
Days when: July 8, 2015 (Wed) 
15:30 - 16:30 , the presenter and explained the contents (. titles omitted, presentations is working title)
in 1991 about rocket JAXA first space technology sector H3 project team  project manager Tadashi Okada (Okada Masashi)  sub-manager Makoto Arita (Arita Makoto) Business Promotion Department  Planning Manager Yuji Mori (Mori Yuji)     
16:00 - 16:30 Q & A

Tony De La Rosa

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #49 on: 07/08/2015 07:33 PM »
Press Conference on H3 rocket

Streamed live on Jul 8, 2015
National Research and Development Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), 2014 to the development of H3 rocket towards to it embarked on a (2014) year, 2020 year of testing machine launch Unit 1, to implement the current basic design doing. About H3 rocket under development, its aim appearance and system do the description of the beam outline. -
Days when: July 8, 2015 (Wed) 
15:30 - 16:30 , the presenter and explained the contents (. titles omitted, presentations is working title)
15:30 ~ 4:00 PM  in 1991 about rocket JAXA first space technology sector H3 project team  project manager Tadashi Okada (Okada Masashi)  sub-manager Makoto Arita (Arita Makoto) Business Promotion Department  Planning Manager Yuji Mori (Mori Yuji)     
16:00 - 16:30 Q & A


« Last Edit: 07/08/2015 07:36 PM by catdlr »
Tony De La Rosa

Offline Fuji

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #50 on: 07/08/2015 09:18 PM »
H3 Press Conference document
http://fanfun.jaxa.jp/jaxatv/files/jaxatv_20150708_h3.pdf

That was good press conference.
LE-9 thrust is more than 10 times bigger than LE-5B, how develop the such large scale leap ? (LE-9 thrust is 150 metric tons, LE-5B 14 tons)
The point is longer thrust chamber that collect more heat from chamber wall (LE-5B, LE-9 are Expander breed cycle engine).

SRB-A is almost newly developed. Visual appearance is same, but another one.


Here is Japanese text script.
http://ima.hatenablog.jp/entry/2015/07/08/153000
« Last Edit: 07/12/2015 12:37 AM by Fuji »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #51 on: 07/08/2015 10:37 PM »
Any word regarding reusability?.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2015 10:37 PM by TrevorMonty »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #52 on: 07/08/2015 11:10 PM »
looks like they are targeting around 14 flights a year initially from only pad 2. Launch rate would double if pad 1 converted.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2015 11:12 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #53 on: 07/08/2015 11:13 PM »
Any word regarding reusability?.

im not great at Japanese, but it appears answer is no.

Offline baldusi

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #54 on: 07/08/2015 11:28 PM »
Any hard data one the LE-9? I would like to write a wikipedia article.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #55 on: 07/08/2015 11:49 PM »
Any hard data one the LE-9? I would like to write a wikipedia article.
Ill compile what i find into a PM for you.

Offline Fuji

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #56 on: 07/09/2015 12:56 PM »
looks like they are targeting around 14 flights a year initially from only pad 2. Launch rate would double if pad 1 converted.

They planed only 1 pad operations for cost saving.

And Pad 2 can handle both H3 and H-IIB launch.

Offline Fuji

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #57 on: 07/09/2015 01:06 PM »
Any word regarding reusability?.

im not great at Japanese, but it appears answer is no.

Sorry to late reply.

Answer is no. H3 project is not planed reusability
But, another JAXA project studied reusable rocket technology for future H3. Still concept study level.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2015 01:08 PM by Fuji »

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #58 on: 07/09/2015 01:27 PM »
Impressive looking hardware and concepts! I wish I could read Japanese. Anyone catch the performance to Low Earth Orbit for the 4x SRB version - both 28.5 degree or other low-inclinations and 50+plus degree orbits?
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Offline Damon Hill

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #59 on: 07/09/2015 01:55 PM »
The LE-9 would be by far the highest thrust expander cycle engine ever developed, using a "bleed" or open cycle rather than a closed cycle turbopump system.  Getting that much thrust out of an expander cycle turbopump is a challenge: the specific impulse is lower as a result of the open cycle, but it's still pretty good.  I wonder what the T/W ratio is? 

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #60 on: 07/09/2015 09:18 PM »
Would they human rate the H3. I was thinking of SNC DC in regards to this.

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #61 on: 07/10/2015 09:30 PM »
Would they human rate the H3. I was thinking of SNC DC in regards to this.
initally no. That would be mandatory to do so under separate joint MHI/JAXA project. Since there ia not a crew project it is yet to be planned in the development schedule

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #62 on: 07/10/2015 11:30 PM »
Whatever happened to the HTV-derived vehicle?
« Last Edit: 07/10/2015 11:33 PM by Pipcard »

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #63 on: 07/10/2015 11:46 PM »
Whatever happened to the HTV-derived vehicle?
Never got past the concept phase.

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #64 on: 10/13/2015 06:14 AM »
Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes 6 minutes ago
Japan's Jaxa: H-3 rocket to launch from 2020, 6,500kg to GTO, being designed w/ MHI esp for commercial market.#IAC2015

Offline input~2

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #65 on: 10/13/2015 06:35 AM »
Talking Space ‏@talkingspace 28 minutes ago
Tsutomu Fukatsu, @JAXA_en, is introducing a new launch vehicle, H3, in 2020 to compete for commercial $ #IAC2015

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #67 on: 02/19/2016 12:14 PM »
Official information: H3 version IDs are released  :)

H3-abc: a=Number of LE-7 (2 or 3), b=Number of  SRB-3 (0 or 2 or 4), c= Fairing size (S or L)
 
« Last Edit: 02/19/2016 12:17 PM by Fuji »

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #68 on: 02/19/2016 05:06 PM »
Here's a text file dump of a Google translation of the pdf file on the previous message.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline baldusi

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #69 on: 02/19/2016 06:22 PM »
They want to have a common motor for SRB-3 and Epsilon first stage. Only difference would be the nosecap and the H3 solids would not use TVC (but will try to use as many common parts of the nozzle as possible).

PDR early 2016, CDR late 2017, first launch 2020. They should be starting to build the engine test stand about now.

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #70 on: 05/20/2016 12:29 AM »
6,500 kg or more to GTO. $45 million per launch for base version.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2016/05/19/jaxa-outlines-plans-h3-launch-vehicle/#more-58435
« Last Edit: 05/20/2016 12:34 AM by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Pipcard

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #71 on: 06/10/2016 12:19 AM »
This article shows a CGI image by JAXA of the H-III being raised from a horizontal position on a strongback.



-Are the solid rocket boosters small and light enough for this to work, or does it have to be all-liquid?
-Will the VAB be dismantled and replaced with a horizontal integration facility, or will the rocket still be assembled vertically, then lowered to a horizontal position for transport to the launch pad?
I know this doesn't matter anymore in regards to the current plan, but it turns out that there would have been enough room for a horizontal vehicle assembly building between the current VAB and the block house (I came across the image here)
« Last Edit: 06/10/2016 01:24 AM by Pipcard »

Offline Fuji

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #72 on: 06/16/2016 03:29 PM »
Current status of the H3 Preliminary Design. (Japanese document)
http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2016/06/files/20160614_h3_01_j.pdf

H3 PDR is finished.
 

Offline Fuji

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #73 on: 06/21/2016 02:28 PM »

Offline Kosmos2001

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #74 on: 06/29/2016 06:05 PM »
Jaxa Today No.10.

They talk about H3 development from page 6 to 9.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #75 on: 01/30/2017 05:29 PM »
Second Stage LE-5B LRE Upgrade now identified as LE-5B-3

Offline Stan Black

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #76 on: 01/30/2017 06:32 PM »
Launch pad ML2 is upgraded for this rocket.

I learn something new, there were three ‘movable launchers’.
https://www.mhi-global.com/products/expand/rocket_launcher_supply_result_03.html
« Last Edit: 01/30/2017 06:36 PM by Stan Black »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #77 on: 01/30/2017 06:42 PM »
Launch pad ML2 is upgraded for this rocket.

I learn something new, there are three ‘movable launchers’.
https://www.mhi-global.com/products/expand/rocket_launcher_supply_result_03.html
yes and if launch rate ever becomes high enough all three can be upgraded to H-3 configuration
ML-2 is the only one still moved on rails and ML3 is the one that also hosts H-IIB (It basically lives in that configuration currently).

Offline Comet

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #78 on: 02/02/2017 03:25 PM »
From the JAXA presentation on UNOOSA meeting in Vienna:

Offline mrhuggy

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Re: H3 development update thread
« Reply #79 on: 04/01/2017 01:20 PM »
Jaxa have posted a new video of the H-3

 
Chris Hugman
mr.huggy.net

Offline Fuji

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« Last Edit: 04/11/2017 08:58 PM by Fuji »

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