Author Topic: H3 development update thread  (Read 58764 times)

Offline zaitcev

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H3 development update thread
« on: 05/05/2010 12:07 AM »
« Last Edit: 07/02/2015 10:23 AM by Galactic Penguin SST »

Offline meiza

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #1 on: 05/05/2010 11:26 PM »
Interesting, to use an expander (bleed) on a first stage. This has been proposed before but has been left unexplored for some reason.

Offline Fuji

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #2 on: 10/18/2012 05:48 AM »
Here is good background information.

Mitsubishi Pushes For H-IIA And H-IIB Replacement
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_10_15_2012_p28-504957.xml

Quote
About a quarter of Japan's space engineers—those who have had the most experience developing the H-II series and its predecessors—will retire by 2020, Asada said at the Japan International Aerospace Exhibition here last week. By 2020, an engineer who was 25 in the mid-1980s, during early work on the original H-II rocket, will be around 60.


Offline Fuji

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #4 on: 05/15/2013 05:04 AM »
H-X (H-3) development might be started next JFY.
In Japan, positive news are reported. It will be including next JFY budget request.
But budget problem is still exist. So, may be started small budget.

A first flight is targeted for 2021.
« Last Edit: 05/15/2013 05:32 AM by Fuji »

Offline blister


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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #6 on: 05/29/2013 11:27 AM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.
« Last Edit: 05/29/2013 12:13 PM by woods170 »

Offline Prober

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #7 on: 05/29/2013 02:11 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.
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I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work. ~ by Thomas Alva Edison

Online woods170

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #8 on: 05/29/2013 05:40 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.

Won't become a reality. CNES recently said something very similar about Ariane 6. Won't happen either. (the "half the price" bit I mean)
« Last Edit: 05/29/2013 05:40 PM by woods170 »

Offline Prober

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #9 on: 05/29/2013 07:09 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.

Won't become a reality. CNES recently said something very similar about Ariane 6. Won't happen either. (the "half the price" bit I mean)

Any cost savings at this time are like a must, so I wish them well in the project.  Also hope the USA still has some ties to JAXA and can get these cost savings ideas/designs transferred to Delta.
 
You missed something I hope wasn't a translation issue.  It said "commercial" in that statement.  As you know most of the current launches are for JAXA.   
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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #10 on: 05/29/2013 07:49 PM »
Kicking off this update thread for H-3 as there is now an official advise from the Japanese government:


http://www.spacenews.com/article/launch-report/35499japanese-government-recommends-developing-h-2a-successor#.UaXk7di3kZY


Quote
Japanese Government Recommends Developing H-2A Successor

A high-level Japanese government panel has tentatively recommended proceeding with development of a lower-cost, commercially viable successor to the nation’s workhorse H-2A rocket.

The recommendation to develop the so-called H-3 rocket was handed down May 17 in a draft midterm report by the Space Transportation Systems Subcommittee of Japan’s Cabinet-level Office of National Space Policy (ONSP).

H-2A prime contractor Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) of Tokyo proposed a two-stage “New Concept Rocket” with a liquid-fueled core stage and solid-rocket strap-on motors that would be available commercially by 2020 at half the price of an H-2A



Note: the H-X thread and the H-3 development thread were merged into one as both handle the same subject: the proposed H-IIA successor.

"at half the price of an H-2A"   this is an impressive goal.  Can't wait to see how this is done.

Won't become a reality. CNES recently said something very similar about Ariane 6. Won't happen either. (the "half the price" bit I mean)

Any cost savings at this time are like a must, so I wish them well in the project.  Also hope the USA still has some ties to JAXA and can get these cost savings ideas/designs transferred to Delta.
 
You missed something I hope wasn't a translation issue.  It said "commercial" in that statement.  As you know most of the current launches are for JAXA.   

No, I didn't miss that. Like ESA, the Japanese launchers are developed under auspices of the space agency. In this case JAXA. It then will be put to work as a commercial launcher. This is not Mitsubishi saying: "Hey, we're gonna develop H-3 on our own and market it commercially". This is Mitsubishi saying: "Hey JAXA, we have a proposal for an HII-A replacement and guess what... it has a chance of being fielded commercially. Would you kindly supply us with the funds needed to develop this thing?". With the latter they 'sold' a government advice council on the viability of their proposal and now that government council is giving the advice to actually fund and develop H-3. With Japanese taxpayers money naturally.

Offline Oli

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #11 on: 06/02/2013 05:03 AM »
Quote from: jg1968
More on Japan's proposed H-X:
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets_1/Japan/H-X/Description/Text.htm
http://archive.ists.or.jp/upload_pdf/2011-a-21.pdf
http://archive.ists.or.jp/upload_pdf/2009-a-04.pdf

Interesting.

It uses a new open exander cycle engine, LE-X, with a thrust of 1448kN (vac) and an ISP of 432.

The core stage has two LE-X. Then there is a second stage AND a small third stage for GTO launches (curious). Apparently the version without boosters can put 4t to GTO. For 6t to GTO the launcher requires 4 additional boosters.

I guess it depends on how cheap those LE-X will be...

Offline Fuji

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #12 on: 09/03/2013 06:51 AM »
Latest study material.
H-3 family launch capability (upside) and H-2A/H-2B launch capability illustration.

Online IRobot

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #13 on: 09/03/2013 07:18 AM »
With the ongoing currency war and the massive yen deface to come, they might even become commercially attractive.

Offline Oli

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #14 on: 09/03/2013 02:35 PM »
Quote from: Fuji
Latest study material.
H-3 family launch capability (upside) and H-2A/H-2B launch capability illustration.

Interesting. Pretty much resembles the liquid A6 configuration, with LE-X instead of Vulcain 3 (almost same specs).
« Last Edit: 09/03/2013 02:37 PM by Oli »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #15 on: 11/26/2013 03:32 PM »
LINK: http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20130918D17HH036.htm

Wednesday, September 18, 2013
Mitsubishi Heavy Eyes Commercialization Of Rocket Tech

TOKYO -- Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd. is also eyeing commercialization of low-cost rocket launches in line with the nation's official strategy.

It took a giant leap in its bid to become a profitable space company on Aug. 4 when it launched one of its H-IIB rockets for the first time after it took over full control of launch services from Japan's space agency, at the Tanegashima Space Center in Kagoshima Prefecture.

The No. 4 H-IIB rocket carried into space the Konotori cargo transporter, which brought food and supplies to the International Space Station.

Ceding authority

For the launch of the first three H-IIB rockets, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) gave the final go-ahead after analyzing weather and other conditions. This was the first launch in which JAXA handed over all decision-making authority to Mitsubishi Heavy.

The company had previously been given the reins to launch the less powerful H-IIA rocket, and the Aug. 4 H-IIB launch marked another step in the privatization of Japan's space program.

The H-IIA and H-IIB are capable of putting satellites weighing up to 6 and 8 metric tons, respectively, into geostationary orbit.

With JAXA ceding its authority to Mitsubishi Heavy, the leading Japanese heavy machinery maker will be able to seek orders for launching domestic and foreign-made satellites of various sizes.

"We hope to market our services in Asia, the Middle East and elsewhere," said Yoichi Kujirai, executive vice president and head of aerospace systems at Mitsubishi Heavy.

The depreciation of the yen, coupled with JAXA's decision, has created "business opportunities for us at last," a Mitsubishi Heavy marketing official said.

Uncompetitive

The H-IIA and H-IIB face tough competition from overseas. The U.S. and Russia have launched more than 300 rockets between them; Japan has launched just over 20.

Mitsubishi does not disclose earnings from its rocket launch business, only that it is "not in the red," according to an official, suggesting that the business is not highly profitable for the company.

"Business is tough, but we hope to accumulate successful results," Executive Vice President Tatsuhiko Nojima said.

The rocket is "overlooked on the commercial market because of its high launch cost," said a JAXA official.

The H-IIA has secured only one launch order from abroad. The cost of each launch is estimated at nearly 10 billion yen ($100 million) for the H-IIA and 15 billion yen for the H-IIB, much higher than the global average of around 7 billion yen. Although the two rockets have high success rates, they do not compete with rivals on price.

According to Mitsubishi Heavy, it needs to carry out four launches a year to support its H-II rocket production technology. But only three launches are planned for this business year.

The government recently decided to begin a project in fiscal 2014 to develop an internationally competitive rocket, tentatively called the H-III. The successor to the H-IIA is expected to cost less while continuing to be as reliable. The project will involve JAXA, Mitsubishi Heavy, IHI Corp. and others.

Going private, cheaper

The high cost of the H-IIA program is the result of a government policy that regarded space as a testing ground for advanced technologies. The H-III project will seek to halve the cost of launches to encourage more commercial endeavors.

In past projects, the government decided on basic designs and then farmed out the development of rockets to private companies. The H-III program will take into account opinions and input from Mitsubishi Heavy and other companies from its initial stage.

The H-III project, with its slogan of "a rocket incorporating private-sector power," will consider the capabilities of solid-fueled rockets, and study new approaches to fuel efficiency and other cost-saving techniques. Foreign companies may also be asked to participate in the development of the engines and some other core components.

------

Image Captions:

Image 1
Mitsubishi Heavy on Aug. 4 launches an H-IIB rocket after taking full control from JAXA at the Tanegashima Space Center in Kagoshima Prefecture. (Kyodo)

Image 2
Yoichi Kujirai, executive vice president and head of aerospace systems at Mitsubishi Heavy, speaks to the press after the successful launch of an H-IIB rocket on Aug. 4.

Image 3
An H-III rocket rests on a launch pad in this conceptual image provided by JAXA.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #16 on: 11/26/2013 04:19 PM »
LINK to MHI Business Briefing on Aerospace Systems (Includes H-III Dev Project): http://www.mhi.co.jp/en/finance/library/business/pdf/aero2012.pdf

Offline edkyle99

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #17 on: 03/07/2014 01:25 PM »
JAXA requested bids for H-III work on Feb 27, 2014.  This must be for R&D at this stage.

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1403/04h3rocket/#.UxnVjs5Af6c

The claim that H-III will be cheaper and therefore competitive is identical to the claims made for H-IIA and even H-II.  The truth seems to be that JAXA is planning for a bigger rocket with more lifting capability that is in many ways a growth variant of H-IIA/H-IIB.  The big difference is a core that can lift itself for smaller payload missions, and a single core that can handle both H-IIA and H-IIB class missions, plus a bit more, by varying the number of solid boosters.  I suppose that maintaining production of only one core instead of two should save a bit of money, but I still don't see the commercial competitiveness.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 03/07/2014 01:27 PM by edkyle99 »

Offline Oli

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #18 on: 03/07/2014 03:11 PM »
...but I still don't see the commercial competitiveness.

It seems to be a rocket optimized for institutional missions. I don't know why JAXA should get into the comsat business, IMO the market cannot support that many players. It probably barely pays off for ESA with 50%+ market share.

Offline baldusi

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Re: H-3 development update thread
« Reply #19 on: 03/07/2014 05:41 PM »
...but I still don't see the commercial competitiveness.

It seems to be a rocket optimized for institutional missions. I don't know why JAXA should get into the comsat business, IMO the market cannot support that many players. It probably barely pays off for ESA with 50%+ market share.
And they launch from 30deg. So they have to spend more energy than even the Americans. With Japanese labor I don't see them being very competitive. But they engine should be a lot cheaper. The LE-7 is an RS-25 class engine, and probably cost wise very similar, with an annual production around of 4. The new core would use two of the cheaper LE-X (8?9?).
But cost is not only on the core, but on the ops. If they redesign the ground ops, have a true single core, simplified fairing offerings, and apply some of the low cost approach on avionics and GSE of the Epsilon, then they might lower costs.
The only issue is that by going the strap-a-solid for payload flexibility, they are sticking to vertical assembly. Will they do like Atlas V, and use an MLP, or should they do like Delta IV should have done and have checkout and integration done in an HIF time on the pad just for strap-on and payload integration.

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