Author Topic: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements  (Read 3546 times)

Offline kraisee

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Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« on: 10/23/2009 03:18 AM »
Just wondering what people think of the latest Edition (8th) compared to previous editions.

Also, what other titles would you recommend?

Ross.

[EDIT: Corrected Title]
« Last Edit: 10/23/2009 05:43 AM by kraisee »
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Offline JonSBerndt

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Re: Sutter -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #1 on: 10/23/2009 03:31 AM »
Just wondering what people think of the latest Edition (8th) compared to previous editions.

Also, what other titles would you recommend?

Ross.

I've been waiting for this one, too (BTW, it's "Sutton"). According to Amazon, it's not out until the end of December.

« Last Edit: 10/23/2009 03:37 AM by JonSBerndt »
Jon S. Berndt
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The opinions expressed herein are of course solely my own.

Offline Antares

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #2 on: 10/23/2009 04:59 PM »
My recipe for a good engine guy/gal: An engineering degree, plus or including

Sutton
Huzel and Huang Modern Engineering for Design of Liquid Propellant Rocket Engines
Flynn Cryogenic Engineering or equivalent
Bate Mueller White Fundamentals of Astrodynamics

John Anderson
Fundamentals of Aerodynamics
Modern Compressible Flow
Hypersonic and High Temperature Gas Dynamics


Equivalent of:
~4 classes in manufacturing processes, common problems and material properties,
~3 classes in thermo and heat transfer,
1-2 classes in electronics design,
1 in vibration testing and analysis
« Last Edit: 10/23/2009 05:04 PM by Antares »
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline jongoff

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #3 on: 10/23/2009 05:52 PM »
My recipe for a good engine guy/gal: An engineering degree, plus or including

Sutton
Huzel and Huang Modern Engineering for Design of Liquid Propellant Rocket Engines
Flynn Cryogenic Engineering or equivalent
Bate Mueller White Fundamentals of Astrodynamics

John Anderson
Fundamentals of Aerodynamics
Modern Compressible Flow
Hypersonic and High Temperature Gas Dynamics


Equivalent of:
~4 classes in manufacturing processes, common problems and material properties,
~3 classes in thermo and heat transfer,
1-2 classes in electronics design,
1 in vibration testing and analysis

Being an engine guy (who ironically only had 1 class in thermo/heat transfer), the biggest thing I'd suggest is actually building some real hardware.  Book learning is great, but actually building and firing rocket engines is worth a lot too.  Even something as small as an RCS engine or igniter (which could probably be done on a college kid's budget, possibly with some donations from around town--I should know), gives a lot of useful experience. 

Admittedly, I do wish I had actually taken more thermo and heat transfer and compressible fluid flow classes (I took lots of other fluids classes), but I had no idea I'd actually be doing propulsion design when I graduated either.  So get the good solid theoretical foundation, but find some way to get some actual hands-on, dirt under the fingernails, clothes smelling like burnt hydrocarbons experience to go along with it.

(but try to be safe about it--make sure you've got some concrete, dirt, or a lot of distance between you and your first attempt at liquid or gaseous fueled rocketry...)

~Jon
« Last Edit: 10/23/2009 05:54 PM by jongoff »

Offline Antares

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #4 on: 10/23/2009 07:28 PM »
No disagreement at all with that.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #5 on: 10/25/2009 05:43 PM »
Thanks for the tips!
I already have Andersons Fundamentals of aerodynamics, which I find very well written.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline simonbp

Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #6 on: 10/26/2009 03:38 PM »
Orbital Mechanics, Prussing and Conway: The best modern introduction to the subject I've seen.

Mathematical Methods in the Physical Sciences, Boas: A review of all the math concepts you will probably ever need.

Offline DirtyDeeds

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #7 on: 10/26/2009 11:16 PM »
I'm reading/ doing the exercises from Boas now to supplement my Mathematical Methods in Physics class. Boas is an excellent book! Very clear, very concise. In the class, we use Arfken's "Mathematical Methods for Physicists." Don't ever use that book. It's terrible, terrible, terrible.

Offline kneecaps

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #8 on: 11/02/2009 02:36 PM »
Orbital Mechanics, Prussing and Conway: The best modern introduction to the subject I've seen.


How does it compare to BMW?
Allow subject to scream. In space no one will hear.

Offline simonbp

Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #9 on: 11/02/2009 09:29 PM »
How does it compare to BMW?

It's about 30 years more recent.  ;)

Prussing and Conway is focused much more on interplanetary trajectories than BMW, which is sort of an ICBM design manual...

Offline kneecaps

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #10 on: 11/07/2009 11:35 PM »
How does it compare to BMW?

It's about 30 years more recent.  ;)

Prussing and Conway is focused much more on interplanetary trajectories than BMW, which is sort of an ICBM design manual...

:)))) Sounds like its worth a read!!

BMW showed me how to cook up state vectors from watching things go overhead!! Good times!
Allow subject to scream. In space no one will hear.

Offline The_Master

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #11 on: 03/15/2017 07:46 AM »
Hello,

I'm posting here because I have a question about the Sutton book.  I'm just a non-aerospace engineer.

The Sutton book gives some descriptive information and lists an impressive Isp for the space shuttle maneuvering thrusters.  In fact, the Isp shown is basically the theoretical value for full size Hydrazine/N202 rocket engines.  The maneuvering thrusters are really small engines.

Am I to take from this that scale effects are not TOO big a factor for rocket engine efficiency?  That I could theoretically make a backyard model-sized H2/LOX engine and see almost the same Isp as the Shuttle?

I'm not looking for any theoretical answers, I was just wondering if anyone here might be able to verify the numbers in Sutton, or perhaps have real-world personal experience with this in general-- about scaling and rocket engine size.

Another thing I thought was interesting seeing was 15-20 rocket motors (too many to count) at the bottom of recent SpaceX rockets.
« Last Edit: 03/15/2017 07:47 AM by The_Master »

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Sutton -- Rocket Propulsion Elements
« Reply #12 on: 03/15/2017 09:04 AM »
Just wondering what people think of the latest Edition (8th) compared to previous editions.

Also, what other titles would you recommend?

Ross.

[EDIT: Corrected Title]
Depends.

Does it still use the V2 turbopump graphs (AFAIK they are from the original edition) or has that been replaced by something designed in the last 50 years?

Does it's loss model for nozzles list the likely loss for a contraction ratio less than 3 as more like 5% rather than the level earlier editions give. A model to calculate it was developed by NASA in the mid 1960's for (IIRC) O2/H2 but they never seem to have gotten round to doing one for Lox/Kero.

IOW has the liquid rocket engine section actually been updated by someone who designs such things?

Sutton seems to get the nod because it's all that seems to be available in English.  It's damm expensive, incorporates no design software and the editions I'm aware of are radically out of date in several areas.

I've long suspected a translation of one of the Russian texts would be considerably more up to date and comprehensive.

The 4th edition seems to be more useful. It's out of date but you'll see more systems covered.

Rocket engineering is one of those areas where a mix of the practical and the theoretical is a good idea.
« Last Edit: 03/16/2017 01:16 PM by john smith 19 »
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