NASASpaceFlight.com Forum

SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Falcon Missions Section => Topic started by: Galactic Penguin SST on 09/09/2014 03:09 am

Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 09/09/2014 03:09 am
DISCUSSION thread for BulgariaSat-1 mission.

NSF Threads for BulgariaSat-1 : Discussion (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35587.0) / Updates (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.0) / L2 Coverage May-June (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42839.0) / ASDS (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=66.0) / Party (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42585.0)
NSF Articles for BulgariaSat-1 :
   Falcon 9 readies for Static Fire test ahead of Inmarsat 5 F4 mission (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/05/falcon-9-static-fire-1-inmarsat5f4/)
   Bulgariasat launch realigns; SpaceX secures X-37B launch contract (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/bulgariasat-launch-spacex-secures-x-37b-contract/)
   SpaceX preparing to static fire next Falcon 9 – another flight proven booster (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/spacex-static-fire-next-falcon-9-flight-proven-booster/)
   SpaceX Falcon 9 ready for second flight with BulgariaSat-1 mission (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/spacex-falcon-9-second-flight-bulgariasat-1-mission/)
   SpaceX returns two boosters, fires up a third for Static Fire test (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/spacex-returns-boosters-third-static-fire-test/)

Successful launch on June 23, 2017 at 3:10pm EDT (1910 UTC) on Falcon 9 (reused booster 1029.2) from LC-39A at Cape Canaveral.  Booster landed successfully on ASDS.

Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent) (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/)  /   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews) (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/dragon/)  /  SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions) (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0)
   L2 SpaceX Section (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=60.0)



http://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/pr20140908b.html (http://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/pr20140908b.html)
Quote
SSL SELECTED TO PROVIDE DIRECT BROADCAST SATELLITE TO BULGARIA SAT

PALO ALTO, Calif. – September 8, 2014 — Space Systems/Loral (SSL), a leading provider of commercial satellites, today announced that it was selected to provide a communications satellite for Bulgaria Sat, an affiliate of Bulsatcom, which is a leading telecommunications company and the largest provider of pay-TV services in Bulgaria. The satellite, which will provide Direct-to-Home (DTH) television service in the Balkan region, will be Bulgaria Sat’s first dedicated satellite. 

“SSL has a long history of working with both large established satellite operators and newer ventures to provide highly reliable satellites for today’s advanced services,” said John Celli, president of SSL.  “It has been a pleasure to help Bulgaria Sat reach this milestone of ordering its first satellite, which will help expand connectivity in the region, bringing the latest in up-to-date information and entertainment.”

The satellite, BulgariaSat-1, will provide DTH services and fixed satellite services in the Balkans and other European regions to help meet the growing demand for telecommunications services. BulgariaSat-1 will be equipped with 2 Ku-band FSS transponders and 30 Ku-band BSS transponders for fixed satellite services and advanced television services such as high definition television.

“We selected SSL to manufacture our first satellite early on, based on its history of success and reliability,” said Maxim Zayakov, chief executive officer of Bulgaria Sat.  “SSL has been an excellent partner in helping us bring this project to fruition.”

SSL assisted Bulgaria Sat in obtaining all of the financing for the satellite, including export credit financing from the Export-Import Bank of the United States.  BulgariaSat-1 will be delivered in-orbit, following its launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket in 2016.

BulgariaSat-1 is based on the space-proven SSL 1300 satellite platform that provides the flexibility for a broad range of applications and technology advances.  It is designed to deliver service for 15 years or more.

Not bad SpaceX - they have just landed another comsat launch contract! As its name suggests, this one is from Bulgaria and is built on Loral's LS-1300 bus - the same one used for the 2 satellites of AsiaSat.  8)

(to be fair SpaceX didn't grab it all - in fact Arianespace just announced not 1 but 4 launch contracts for 3 tonne class comsats! (http://www.arianespace.com/news-press-release/2014/9-8-2014-Euroconsult2014.asp))
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: daveklingler on 09/09/2014 03:56 am
http://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/pr20140908b.html (http://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/pr20140908b.html)

Not bad SpaceX - they have just landed another comsat launch contract! As its name suggests, this one is from Bulgaria and is built on Loral's LS-1300 bus - the same one used for the 2 satellites of AsiaSat.  8)

(to be fair SpaceX didn't grab it all - in fact Arianespace just announced not 1 but 4 launch contracts for 3 tonne class comsats! (http://www.arianespace.com/news-press-release/2014/9-8-2014-Euroconsult2014.asp))

I surmise that if ArianeSpace has reduced its prices enough to compete with SpaceX in the light satellite category, their profits must be very slim to nonexistent.  Either that or they're supplying some sort of deal sweetener, like low-interest financing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 09/09/2014 04:46 am
http://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/pr20140908b.html (http://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/pr20140908b.html)

Not bad SpaceX - they have just landed another comsat launch contract! As its name suggests, this one is from Bulgaria and is built on Loral's LS-1300 bus - the same one used for the 2 satellites of AsiaSat.  8)

(to be fair SpaceX didn't grab it all - in fact Arianespace just announced not 1 but 4 launch contracts for 3 tonne class comsats! (http://www.arianespace.com/news-press-release/2014/9-8-2014-Euroconsult2014.asp))

I surmise that if ArianeSpace has reduced its prices enough to compete with SpaceX in the light satellite category, their profits must be very slim to nonexistent.  Either that or they're supplying some sort of deal sweetener, like low-interest financing.

They launch two at a time and probably charge more for the heavier one.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: guckyfan on 09/09/2014 07:02 am

They launch two at a time and probably charge more for the heavier one.

If they do that it will come back to haunt them as soon as FH flies. But it seems they claim they have suddenly found means to launch cheaper.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Earendil on 09/09/2014 05:59 pm
Well, as a Bulgarian who has been following this forum for almost a year now, it is a suitable thread for a first on-topic post :) Congrats to Bulsatcom for thier first satelite.. and of course to SpaceX for grabbing this launch.

Just wait for F9's reusable first stage.. if we are looking at launches for 20-ish mil. usd, then I have no idea how ArianeSpace and similar will compete in  this class launches.

Do we know the value of the contracts for SpaceX's BulgariaSat and AS's new ones?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: MTom on 09/09/2014 09:13 pm
Well, as a Bulgarian who has been following this forum for almost a year now, it is a suitable thread for a first on-topic post :) Congrats to Bulsatcom for thier first satelite.. and of course to SpaceX for grabbing this launch.

Just wait for F9's reusable first stage.. if we are looking at launches for 20-ish mil. usd, then I have no idea how ArianeSpace and similar will compete in  this class launches.

Do we know the value of the contracts for SpaceX's BulgariaSat and AS's new ones?

Welcome to the forum!

Good to hear the Bulgarians will have an own satellite.
We in Hungary only have this - from our Technical University in Budapest, functioning very well: http://cubesat.bme.hu/en/
Maybe later...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 09/09/2014 09:55 pm

Do we know the value of the contracts for SpaceX's BulgariaSat and AS's new ones?

I would assume that the BulgariaSat contract was for SpaceX's publicized price 61.2M base + services. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/19/2016 04:35 pm
Tweet from SSL on April 18 (https://twitter.com/sslmda/status/722085901430616064)
Quote
BulgariaSat-1 #satellite has begun thermal vacuum testing, which simulates the harsh conditions of #space.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgVdTIKW8AA7ebP.jpg:large)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/18/2016 01:56 am
Sounds like this should still be ready for launch by the end of the year, will be interesting to see when it actually does launch.
(Yeah, the last sentence in the story is partially wrong, but the rest of it is probably useful.)

Google translation of a story found on a bunch of Bulgarian news sites, this was from http://www.economic.bg/bg/news/7/parviyat-balgarski-komunikatsionen-satelit-e-pred-izstrelvane.html (http://www.economic.bg/bg/news/7/parviyat-balgarski-komunikatsionen-satelit-e-pred-izstrelvane.html):
Quote
Two years after Bulsatcom started production of the first Bulgarian geostationary communications satellite, the company has only one test away from full technological readiness of the facility for launch into space.

The manufacturer of satellites - the leading company in the sector - Space Systems / Loral (SSL) officially confirmed that BulgariaSat-1 is passed vibration tests...
The full technical readiness of the satellite for launch into space, there is only phase for testing antennas in a facility called Compact Antenna Test Range (CATR). Once finalized vibration test, BulgariaSat-1 has been fully tested to be sure that continued to function normally and its components remain completely unharmed.
...
Manufacture of satellites was awarded the leading company in this field - Space Systems / Loral (SSL), based in Silicon Valley in the US. BulgariaSat-1 is scheduled to be launched by the end of 2016 through the launch vehicle Falcon 9 company SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 08/18/2016 08:24 am
Quote
The launch of the Bulgarian satellite will be carried out by NASA and will be broadcast live from Cape Canaveral, Florida, USA.

Huh? Has NASA anything to do with the launch? I thought the launch provider is SpaceX and the Range is Air Force.
Is this Bulgarian for "It's launched by Americans."?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/18/2016 12:17 pm
As gongora said when he posted the excerpt: "Yes, the last sentence is partially wrong, but the rest of it is probably useful."
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/13/2016 09:36 am
Quote
Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes 1h1 hour ago

Bulgaria Sat CEO: We can handle a 6-month delay at SpaceX (was scheduled late 2016, now unknowable). Beyond 6 months, customers may leave.

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/775607406831296512 (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/775607406831296512)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Dao Angkan on 04/21/2017 06:18 pm
Bulsatcom’s BulgariaSat-1 satellite moves step closer to launch (https://seenews.com/news/bulsatcoms-bulgariasat-1-satellite-moves-step-closer-to-launch-565954)

(http://i.imgur.com/K8BjzUD.jpg)

Quote
SOFIA (Bulgaria), April 21 (SeeNews) - Bulgarian telecommunications company Bulsatcom said on Friday its geostationary communications satellite, BulgariaSat-1 - the country's first - has successfully completed all major assembly and test procedures at Space Systems/Loral (SSL) in Palo Alto, California.

“We are now proceeding to the satellite’s shipment to the launch base,” Maxim Zayakov, CEO of Bulsatcom and its affiliate Bulgaria Sat, said in a statement. “Currently, we are at the stage of planning of launch window.”

Before preparations for shipment began, SSL and Bulgaria Sat technicians performed several final checks on BulgariaSat-1, including a test designed to simulate the satellite’s solar array deployments in the zero-gravity environment of space, final integration and test of the satellite’s reflectors, and other important tests to ensure that the satellite will perform nominally during its design life, according to the statement.

At the launch base in Cape Canaveral, Florida the satellite will be integrated into a SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket which will take it into orbit. BulgariaSat-1 will be positioned into orbit at 36,000 km above the Earth, providing television and communication services covering the Balkans and other European regions. Within 30 days of the launch, the satellite will be operationally ready to broadcast a large number of high quality TV programmes to end-users.

Bulsatcom is a leading telecommunications company and the largest pay-TV services provider in Bulgaria.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Dao Angkan on 05/01/2017 11:54 pm
Any chance this launches mid-June? There seems to be an opportunity from LC39A between CRS-11 (May 31) and Intelsat 35e (late June), or would we already know about it?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 05/02/2017 12:03 am
Any chance this launces mid-June? There seems to be an opportunity from LC39A between CRS-11 (May 31) and Intelsat 35e (late June), or would we already know about it?

According to http://www.launchphotography.com/Delta_4_Atlas_5_Falcon_9_Launch_Viewing.html (http://www.launchphotography.com/Delta_4_Atlas_5_Falcon_9_Launch_Viewing.html), Ben Cooper states that following SpaceX CRS-11, BulgariaSat 1 is the next to launch before Intelsat 35e.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bjornl on 05/05/2017 07:43 am
SpaceflightNow reporting that this will be a reused booster: https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/05/05/bulgarias-first-communications-satellite-to-ride-spacexs-second-reused-rocket/

Specifically, Iridium booster 1029 that flew from Vandenberg in January.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 05/05/2017 11:49 am
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 05/05/2017 12:28 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 05/05/2017 01:11 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.

By using a reused booster, they jump to the front of the launch queue! Reusability does indeed increase availability and provide much flexibility schedulewise, which is one of the benefits the Air Force looking at.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/05/2017 01:37 pm
How exciting to see another step to normalizing reuse.

It will be a record turnaround of about 5 months for the booster, a 50% reduction from the last reuse 😜

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 05/05/2017 01:56 pm
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.
Presumably this is the second customer that was mentioned when we already knew about SES.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 05/05/2017 02:27 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.

By using a reused booster, they jump to the front of the launch queue! Reusability does indeed increase availability and provide much flexibility schedulewise, which is one of the benefits the Air Force looking at.

It's one thing to tell a customer that if you choose a flight proven booster you get to fly earlier, but telling a customer that if you don't accept a flight proven booster your already significantly delayed launch will get delayed even further because others will get pushed in front of you. I don't know if that will fly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 05/05/2017 02:53 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.

By using a reused booster, they jump to the front of the launch queue! Reusability does indeed increase availability and provide much flexibility schedulewise, which is one of the benefits the Air Force looking at.

It's one thing to tell a customer that if you choose a flight proven booster you get to fly earlier, but telling a customer that if you don't accept a flight proven booster your already significantly delayed launch will get delayed even further because others will get pushed in front of you. I don't know if that will fly.
I doubt they said they'd delay them more if they didn't take a proven core. I think they simply said, "You can wait until a new core is made, and you're 10th in line. Or you can take a flight-proven booster, and we can slot you in at 4 in the launch order because there's space for that. Which would you prefer?"
BulgariaSat chose the latter. Seems perfectly reasonable in my mind.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/05/2017 02:54 pm
Before the AMOS-6 accident BulgariaSat was in that big blob of "end of 2016" launches, we really don't know what order those were going to launch.  If the decision to reuse a booster had any effect on the schedule at all, I doubt it was much more than a month.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 05/05/2017 03:17 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.

By using a reused booster, they jump to the front of the launch queue! Reusability does indeed increase availability and provide much flexibility schedulewise, which is one of the benefits the Air Force looking at.

It's one thing to tell a customer that if you choose a flight proven booster you get to fly earlier, but telling a customer that if you don't accept a flight proven booster your already significantly delayed launch will get delayed even further because others will get pushed in front of you. I don't know if that will fly.
I doubt they said they'd delay them more if they didn't take a proven core. I think they simply said, "You can wait until a new core is made, and you're 10th in line. Or you can take a flight-proven booster, and we can slot you in at 4 in the launch order because there's space for that. Which would you prefer?"
BulgariaSat chose the latter. Seems perfectly reasonable in my mind.

Yes definitely if they can squeeze a launch into what would have otherwise been a gap and nobody else is delayed any more than they would have been otherwise, that would be the best scenario.

And as gongora noted, we have no insight into the launch order and timing, I was just adding another perspective to the discussion.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 05/05/2017 04:21 pm
It would seem like SpaceX must already adjusting their production like to produce more upper stages than boosters. That balance should shift even more dramatically for block 5 production.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Earendil on 05/05/2017 06:08 pm
One more reason not to miss this launch (other than being a Bulgarian and being a subscriber of the sat operator in question) :)

I am glad Bulsatcom has forward thinking management..
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wardy89 on 05/05/2017 08:40 pm
So am i correct in thinking that booster 1029 will take the honour of becoming the first rocket to have launched from both coasts? 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: KaiFarrimond on 05/05/2017 08:42 pm
So am i correct in thinking that booster 1029 will take the honour of becoming the first rocket to have launched from both coasts?
It sure will!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 05/05/2017 08:43 pm
I'm thinking this booster gets at least 3 flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 05/05/2017 09:43 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.

By using a reused booster, they jump to the front of the launch queue! Reusability does indeed increase availability and provide much flexibility schedulewise, which is one of the benefits the Air Force looking at.

Is this a statement of fact or your supposition?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 05/05/2017 10:10 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.

By using a reused booster, they jump to the front of the launch queue! Reusability does indeed increase availability and provide much flexibility schedulewise, which is one of the benefits the Air Force looking at.

Is this a statement of fact or your supposition?
The first sentence was my supposition. The second one was based on some recent AF statements.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 05/08/2017 02:00 pm
It's amazing that BulgariaSat was inspired by the success of SES-10 to reuse one of the Falcon 9 boosters.
BulgariaSat was persuaded by SpaceX to use a reused booster even before SES-10 was launched.

By using a reused booster, they jump to the front of the launch queue! Reusability does indeed increase availability and provide much flexibility schedulewise, which is one of the benefits the Air Force looking at.

Is this a statement of fact or your supposition?
From the linked SFN article:
Quote
BulgariaSat did not disclose whether it received any discount for switching from a new Falcon 9 rocket to a previously-flown vehicle. Industry sources previously said BulgariaSat 1 recently moved ahead of other payloads in the Falcon 9 manifest, perhaps in exchange for an agreement to launch on a reused booster.
Still not a statement of fact, but it is evidence of a queue adjustment for some reason.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/08/2017 06:07 pm
Quote
Added launch window for next Ariane 5 & the penultimate Delta 2 launch. Also: Falcon 9/BulgariaSat 1 set for June 15 https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/

https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/861638979799658496 (https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/861638979799658496)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 05/09/2017 05:27 pm
Shouldn't BulgariaSat be the first Roomba Rumba, too?
It is next ASDS landing on east Coast...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tvg98 on 05/09/2017 05:42 pm
Shouldn't BulgariaSat be the first Roomba Rumba, too?
It is next ASDS landing on east Coast...

Despite the fact that it will be used when OCISLY is unstable due to high seas, they'll have to test it eventually so I guess this is a good mission to try it. That being said, it would be unfortunate if they accidentally dropped their second ever booster (that was also recovered once before) into the drink.....we'll see what happens.   
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: darkenfast on 05/10/2017 04:07 am
"Roomba Rumba" - another space term enters the language!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 05/10/2017 01:41 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BulgariaSat-1

Estimates the payload launch mass at around 4000Kg, which means an ASDS landing is very likely even if a somewhat super sync or reduced inclination target orbit is planned.
Like the cookie monster said... Goooooood !
Perhaps such a modest launch mass with a Block V could be done even with RTLS. Thoughts ?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Flying Beaver on 05/11/2017 03:55 pm
Afternoon window, June 15th. Per SFN
https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/05/10/satellite-for-broadband-on-the-go-next-in-rapid-fire-spacex-launch-campaign/ (https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/05/10/satellite-for-broadband-on-the-go-next-in-rapid-fire-spacex-launch-campaign/)

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 05/12/2017 07:46 pm
Quote from: SSL press release re:BulgariaSat-1
...  BulgariaSat-1 satellite ...  will be launched aboard a space-proven Falcon 9 vehicle provided by SpaceX....

Not just flight-proven, but space-proven now too!  Well, I guess it has been above the Karman Line, so ok.  But, come on SSL, get the terminology right. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 06/04/2017 07:54 am
Booster tail number confirmed yet?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: vanoord on 06/04/2017 08:35 am
If I recall correctly:  B1029 - first used for Iridium 1 from Vandenberg on 14th January.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisC on 06/04/2017 07:58 pm
During the post-launch CRS-11 presser, Chris G asked Hans K to comment on this upcoming launch, specifically that the second stage would have to loiter for 6 hours before a restart.  Hans seemed surprised by that information.  Any more info on that?  I'm finding no mention of it here or in the updates thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/04/2017 08:03 pm
During the post-launch CRS-11 presser, Chris G asked Hans K to comment on this upcoming launch, specifically that the second stage would have to loiter for 6 hours before a restart.  Hans seemed surprised by that information.  Any more info on that?  I'm finding no mention of it here or in the updates thread.

That was Stephen Clark, not Chris G.  Hans seemed to think the information was wrong and said he'd look into it.  I don't think there is any other information.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/04/2017 08:21 pm
Looks like the satellite arrived at the Cape at least 3 weeks ago (found a link to this press release on a Bulgarian forum post (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=cs&sp=nmt4&u=http://forum.kosmonautix.cz/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D87%26t%3D2189%26p%3D78966&usg=ALkJrhhUjU8DakSpQaSnJIYKuovoY5o8-A#p78179) dated May 12).

SSL Satellite Built for Bulgaria Sat Arrives at Cape Canaveral Launch Base for Falcon 9 Launch (http://www.bulgariasat.com/news/SSL-Satellite-Built-for-Bulgaria-Sat-Arrives-at-Cape-Canaveral-Launch-Base-for-Falcon-9-Launch)
Quote
Space Systems Loral (SSL), a leading provider of innovative satellites and spacecraft systems, today announced that the BulgariaSat-1 satellite, designed and built for Bulgaria Sat, an affiliate of Bulsatcom, which is a leading telecommunications company and the largest provider of pay-TV services in Bulgaria, has arrived at the Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, where it will be launched aboard a space-proven Falcon 9 vehicle provided by SpaceX. BulgariaSat-1 will be Bulgaria’s first satellite. SSL is a subsidiary of MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates, Ltd. (TSX:MDA), a global communications and information company.

“SSL has a history of working closely with new satellite operators to help them move their businesses forward,” said John Celli, president of SSL. “We are pleased that this first satellite ever built for a company in Bulgaria has safely arrived at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, and look forward to BulgariaSat-1 making history as the second satellite ever to launch on a Falcon 9 that has flown a previous mission. Launch vehicle reuse is an important enabler for the satellite industry.”

BulgariaSat-1 will provide high quality Direct-to-Home television and telecommunications services in the Balkans and other European regions. It is equipped with 30 Ku-band BSS transponders to broaden the availability of advanced television services such as high definition television.

“BulgariaSat-1 is an essential part of Bulsatcom’s strategy to expand high quality TV and communications offerings to meet customer demand,” said Maxim Zayakov, chief executive officer of Bulgaria Sat. “SSL has been an excellent partner in helping us make our vision a reality and we eagerly await next month’s launch.”

Based on the powerful SSL 1300 platform, the satellite is designed to provide service for 15 years or more. The satellite will be the second ever to be launched on a previously flown Falcon 9 rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 06/04/2017 08:31 pm
This is a rather light sat for F9 GTO
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: DOCinCT on 06/04/2017 08:45 pm
Looks like the satellite arrived at the Cape at least 3 weeks ago [snipped]
That sounds about right.
"For standard service processing and integration, payloads should be delivered to the launch site four weeks prior to launch." Pg 53 Falcon User Guide Rev 2
"All spacecraft processing operations within the PPF must be completed by L-10 days to allow for mating to the payload adapter, fairing encapsulation and transportation to the launch vehicle integration hangar in preparation for launch." Pg. 54
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/04/2017 08:58 pm
This is a rather light sat for F9 GTO

Bulgaria is a rather small country. :)

More seriously, that generally translates to few/smaller spot-beams transponders and corresponding waveguides/antennas, etc. Lighter payload for the satellite bus means longer life for the small mass of station-keeping propellant, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 06/04/2017 09:05 pm
I wonder if this sat would be light enough for an RTLS on a Block 5...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 06/05/2017 12:43 am
I wonder if this sat would be light enough for an RTLS on a Block 5...

Just barely, if at all. I'm estimating the RTLS GTO payload for Block 5 at about 3600 kg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 06/05/2017 09:34 pm
In other words, playing it unjustifiably tight with margins for error and underperformance. Unless the vehicle is extremely lightweight, I suspect that they'll be using OCISLY as always with GSO-bound payloads.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: NotOnImpact on 06/05/2017 09:59 pm
The first stage looks downright shiny.  Is it a new one afterall?   The interstage is definitely used.

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: fthomassy on 06/05/2017 10:35 pm
The first stage looks downright shiny.  Is it a new one afterall?   The interstage is definitely used.

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/)

You're in the thread for Bulgariasat but you posted a link regarding CRS-11.
But the rocket on transporter is for BulgariaSat, is it not?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 06/05/2017 10:36 pm
The first stage looks downright shiny.  Is it a new one afterall?   The interstage is definitely used.

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/)

You're in the thread for Bulgariasat but you posted a link regarding CRS-11.

There's a Flickr gallery at the bottom of the article that shows what is speculated to be the BulgariaSat-1 booster being transported from SLC-40 to Pad 39A after the CRS-11 launch.

Quote
As photographers were picking up their remote cameras outside of Pad 39A, a Beyel Brothers transport rolled past carrying what appears to be the newly painted Falcon 9 core that flew on CRS-8 and SES-10. The grid fins and legs were missing, but the mounting hardware for the legs was visible and covers were installed where the grid fins should have been. It seems hardly accidental that SpaceX arranged for the transport of that historic booster during the time that the media would be at Pad 39A. SpaceX CEO Elon Musk has indicated that the core would be on display in Cape Canaveral.

(The SES-10 booster has since been ruled out due differences in the interstage soot markings)

But the rocket on transporter is for BulgariaSat, is it not?

It could be, but we don't know for sure. It could also be from CRS-10 or NROL-76.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: S.Paulissen on 06/05/2017 10:38 pm
I wonder if this sat would be light enough for an RTLS on a Block 5...

Just barely, if at all. I'm estimating the RTLS GTO payload for Block 5 at about 3600 kg.

Isn't 3600kg the gto throw mass of the falcon9 v1? 

Actually I looked it up, it was actually 3400kg to -1800m/s.  Wow, Block 5 outperforms expendable Falcon9 1.0v while in RTLS mode.  :/

Source: http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/falcon9.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: DatUser14 on 06/05/2017 10:38 pm
The first stage looks downright shiny.  Is it a new one afterall?   The interstage is definitely used.

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/ (http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/))

You're in the thread for Bulgariasat but you posted a link regarding CRS-11.
But the rocket on transporter is for BulgariaSat, is it not?
No, that's the around the Cape transporter. The cross country transporter is different
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 06/05/2017 10:39 pm
But the rocket on transporter is for BulgariaSat, is it not?
No, that's the around the Cape transporter. The cross country transporter is different

What does that have to do with what rocket the mission is flying?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/06/2017 08:47 am
The first stage looks downright shiny.  Is it a new one afterall?   The interstage is definitely used.

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/)

Maybe they have started doing a basic wash as part of the landing site processing.

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/06/2017 08:57 am
Maybe they have started doing a basic wash as part of the landing site processing.

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.

I'm pretty certain the images at the bottom *aren't* the just-landed CRS-11 booster, but a refurbished one. The interstage has been touched up in places and the flexible TPS around the engines looks brand new. It's plausible this is the BulgariaSat booster moving into LC-39A hangar now that CRS-11 is off the ground so it does make sense to have this posted here.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 06/06/2017 10:04 am

...

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/)

...

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.

How can you say that with certainty?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/06/2017 12:34 pm
Maybe they have started doing a basic wash as part of the landing site processing.

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.

I'm pretty certain the images at the bottom *aren't* the just-landed CRS-11 booster, but a refurbished one. The interstage has been touched up in places and the flexible TPS around the engines looks brand new. It's plausible this is the BulgariaSat booster moving into LC-39A hangar now that CRS-11 is off the ground so it does make sense to have this posted here.

But you have no actual evidence to say it is therefore why post it here.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 06/06/2017 03:04 pm
Maybe they have started doing a basic wash as part of the landing site processing.

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.

I'm pretty certain the images at the bottom *aren't* the just-landed CRS-11 booster, but a refurbished one. The interstage has been touched up in places and the flexible TPS around the engines looks brand new. It's plausible this is the BulgariaSat booster moving into LC-39A hangar now that CRS-11 is off the ground so it does make sense to have this posted here.

But you have no actual evidence to say it is therefore why post it here.

It's a refurbished booster driving down Cape Road, past LC-39A, directly towards the LC-39A HIF, immediately after the last launch. The BulgariaSat booster is a refurbished booster, and it will be the next launch from LC-39A and thus will be processed in the 39A HIF in the next two weeks. I'd say that's fairly conclusive circumstantial evidence.

Driving the HIF: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4236/34917428342_dbd6512b8a_b.jpg
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 06/06/2017 03:09 pm
Maybe they have started doing a basic wash as part of the landing site processing.

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.

I'm pretty certain the images at the bottom *aren't* the just-landed CRS-11 booster, but a refurbished one. The interstage has been touched up in places and the flexible TPS around the engines looks brand new. It's plausible this is the BulgariaSat booster moving into LC-39A hangar now that CRS-11 is off the ground so it does make sense to have this posted here.

But you have no actual evidence to say it is therefore why post it here.

Quibbling about whether something is on or off topic? ... is off topic.

I think a case was made that this might be this booster. Good enough.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/06/2017 06:29 pm

...

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/)

...

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.

How can you say that with certainty?

I can't, it was just an assumption if the image was taken very recently. But my assumptions regarding the workflow speed could very well be wrong.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 06/06/2017 09:30 pm
SpaceX Falcon 9 launch with BulgariaSat-1 from 39A now NET June 17, Static Fire NET June 13. CRS-11 two-day weather slip was the impact.

If they can pull this off around the Florida weather, it'll be their quickest turnaround at just 13 days launch to launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/06/2017 09:40 pm
SpaceX Falcon 9 launch with BulgariaSat-1 from 39A now NET June 17, Static Fire NET June 13. CRS-11 two-day weather slip was the impact.

If they can pull this off around the Florida weather, it'll be their quickest turnaround at just 13 days launch to launch.

It would tie for quickest turnaround. 13 days also between CRS-6 and TurkmenAlem52E in 2015.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 06/06/2017 09:52 pm
SpaceX Falcon 9 launch with BulgariaSat-1 from 39A now NET June 17, Static Fire NET June 13. CRS-11 two-day weather slip was the impact.

If they can pull this off around the Florida weather, it'll be their quickest turnaround at just 13 days launch to launch.

It would tie for quickest turnaround. 13 days also between CRS-6 and TurkmenAlem52E in 2015.

Ah.  I thought it was 14 days as the record... at least that's what I was corrected to prior to CRS-11.  OK.  So CRS-6 to TurkmenAlem52E is the quickest.  Which this one won't beat, actually, if you go down to minutes and seconds.

CRS-6 to TurkmenAlem52E - 13 days 02 hrs 50 mins
CRS-11 to Bulgariasat -        13 days 21 hrs 03 mins.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 06/07/2017 02:12 pm

...

http://wereportspace.com/2017/06/04/spacex-re-flies-dragon-capsule-crs-11/)

...

But this is not going to be the BulgariaSat core, so this should be posted elsewhere.

How can you say that with certainty?

I can't, it was just an assumption if the image was taken very recently. But my assumptions regarding the workflow speed could very well be wrong.

Confirmed.  It's Bulgariasat's booster. 

"@SpaceX
Hours after CRS-11 lifted off, this flight-proven booster rolled into the hangar at 39A; targeting June 17 launch of BulgariaSat-1."
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/07/2017 02:50 pm
TechCrunch are claiming (indirectly) it's 1029

https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/07/spacex-aims-to-reuse-a-falcon-9-booster-used-in-january-on-june-17/

I'm not seeing a source in the article, and I asked SpaceX what the tail number was via a tweet reply.

The booster was announced a month ago, it's 1029.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35587.msg1674916#msg1674916 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35587.msg1674916#msg1674916)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 06/07/2017 02:54 pm
Sorry, I was applying Wikipedia level reliable source rules :)  SFN didn't cite directly but did say that the sat owner said so... TechCrunch of course didn't cite any sources.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/07/2017 03:01 pm
TechCrunch are claiming (indirectly) it's 1029

https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/07/spacex-aims-to-reuse-a-falcon-9-booster-used-in-january-on-june-17/

I'm not seeing a source in the article, and I asked SpaceX what the tail number was via a tweet reply.

This was posted by BulgariaSat early in May:

"The launch of BulgariaSat-1, the first Bulgarian geostationary satellite, is planned for mid-June, Maxim Zayakov, CEO of BulgariaSat, announced. The satellite will be delivered into orbit by the same Falcon 9 rocket's first stage booster that successfully landed on a drone ship in the Pacific on 14th of January 2017."

http://www.bulgariasat.com/news/SpaceX-to-Launch-BulgariaSat-1-in-Mid-June
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 06/07/2017 06:35 pm
Here's the picture from the SpaceX tweet: https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936 (https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936)
No landing legs?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 06/07/2017 06:38 pm
Here's the picture from the SpaceX tweet: https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936 (https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936)
No landing legs?

The landing legs are never on the booster during transport...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 06/07/2017 06:41 pm
Here's the picture from the SpaceX tweet: https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936 (https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936)
No landing legs?

The landing legs are never on the booster during transport...
Right. Brain fart, I was thinking it was coming out of the hanger not going in. I really need to stop trying to multi-task.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/07/2017 07:00 pm
Here's the picture from the SpaceX tweet: https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936 (https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/872455800177831936)
No landing legs?

The landing legs are never on the booster during transport...
Right. Brain fart, I was thinking it was coming out of the hanger not going in. I really need to stop trying to multi-task.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 06/13/2017 02:52 pm
Can we assume that the title "Expendable Launches" is a hold-over, and is not reflective of the assumed plan for a first stage landing on OCISLY?
Or is it truly an expendable?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/13/2017 02:59 pm
Can we assume that the title "Expendable Launches" is a hold-over, and is not reflective of the assumed plan for a first stage landing on OCISLY?
Or is it truly an expendable?

I doubt the Eastern Test Range has updated all of their forms/computer systems for the SpaceX reusability era.  Bulgariasat-1 is small, should be a drone ship landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: toren on 06/13/2017 03:55 pm
Anyone know what's going on with the tall boom crane evident in today's and yesterday's pix of 39A?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 06/13/2017 04:06 pm
Anyone know what's going on with the tall boom crane evident in today's and yesterday's pix of 39A?

They're working on the lightning mast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/13/2017 04:16 pm
In theory, in the rare event of a re-usable failure all launches will still need the full expendable exclusion zones. (What if the flip and boost back fails).

That said, they should change the name to "partially reusable launch"
 
edit/gongora: fixed typo
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: pb2000 on 06/14/2017 12:42 am
"Of Course I Still Love You" and Roomba photos from helicopter today.

No fresh paint for OCISLY on this go around?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: yokem55 on 06/14/2017 01:56 am
"Of Course I Still Love You" and Roomba photos from helicopter today.

No fresh paint for OCISLY on this go around?
And the roomba is kinda rusty. Is that just from stitting by the port for several months?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Brusion on 06/14/2017 02:06 am
Saltwater.  Ugly stuff.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 06/14/2017 02:15 am
Wow, this droneship is really beaten up! Are they going to repaint it? They only have one or two days to do it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 06/14/2017 05:29 am
Wow, this droneship is really beaten up! Are they going to repaint it? They only have one or two days to do it.

Think Serenity vs Enterprise E

Working vehicles get dirty, worn and only occasional refinishing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 06/14/2017 05:33 am
Wow, this droneship is really beaten up! Are they going to repaint it? They only have one or two days to do it.

Think Serenity vs Enterprise E

Working vehicles get dirty, worn and only occasional refinishing.
Well they have always repainted it before to make it look good and clean. Now, if they launch every two weeks they may not have time to do it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WmThomas on 06/14/2017 12:59 pm
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Thanks to all.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 06/14/2017 01:11 pm
I think it's possible to test-fire B1029's engines tomorrow and launch on the 17th because had AMOS 6 not suffered an RUD, its static fire would have happened on September 1, 2016 and launched less than two days later. That was because the payload was already mounted.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 06/14/2017 01:24 pm
I think it's possible to test-fire B1029's engines tomorrow and launch on the 17th because had AMOS 6 not suffered an RUD, its static fire would have happened on September 1, 2016 and launched less than two days later. That was because the payload was already mounted.

Doesn't payload mount take another day though? They aren't going to static fire with the payload mounted.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Barrie on 06/14/2017 01:33 pm
Wow, this droneship is really beaten up! Are they going to repaint it? They only have one or two days to do it.

Think Serenity vs Enterprise E

Working vehicles get dirty, worn and only occasional refinishing.
Well they have always repainted it before to make it look good and clean. Now, if they launch every two weeks they may not have time to do it.
Maybe time constraints, but not every launch has needed or will need the drone ship, so it may be more a question of making operations cost-effective, and being less concerned about cosmetic appearances now that they are a very credible launch provider.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mlow on 06/14/2017 03:01 pm
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Thanks to all.

If you can access twitch.tv just search for a few nerdy gamers lots of them take a break from gaming to restream and comment on it. Failing that I'm not quite sure, they stream directly to YouTube now days.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: KDH on 06/14/2017 04:18 pm
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Thanks to all.

If you can access twitch.tv just search for a few nerdy gamers lots of them take a break from gaming to restream and comment on it. Failing that I'm not quite sure, they stream directly to YouTube now days.

Your best bet is to use a VPN, I do this when abroad, although you normally need to install before you get to somewhere like China, quick google gives http://www.saporedicina.com/english/vpn-how-to-access-facebook-in-china/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WmThomas on 06/14/2017 10:16 pm
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Thanks to all.

If you can access twitch.tv just search for a few nerdy gamers lots of them take a break from gaming to restream and comment on it. Failing that I'm not quite sure, they stream directly to YouTube now days.

Thanks. I was able to access that site. I'll check it out at the next launch, maybe this weekend.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WmThomas on 06/14/2017 10:17 pm
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Thanks to all.

If you can access twitch.tv just search for a few nerdy gamers lots of them take a break from gaming to restream and comment on it. Failing that I'm not quite sure, they stream directly to YouTube now days.

Your best bet is to use a VPN, I do this when abroad, although you normally need to install before you get to somewhere like China, quick google gives http://www.saporedicina.com/english/vpn-how-to-access-facebook-in-china/

Thanks. Perhaps I should have looked into that before I came. here. Maybe next time, if there is a next time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisC on 06/15/2017 06:30 am
Slipped to NET Monday (request to Eastern Range).

Number One, droppin' his verbs ...

Just to be clear, this meant that SpaceX sent a request for the new date to the Eastern Range, not that the Eastern Range requested the slip, right?  Because it could be misread the second way.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 06/15/2017 09:33 am
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Spaceflightnow should be carrying the SpaceX feed. They've done that for the last two launches.

https://spaceflightnow.com/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Scylla on 06/15/2017 03:39 pm
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Spaceflightnow should be carrying the SpaceX feed. They've done that for the last two launches.

https://spaceflightnow.com/
If you are using a mobile device that will not play the video from the above link, it doesn't for me, this link usually works.
http://xspaceflightnowx.api.channel.livestream.com/3.0/playlist.m3u8
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Nomadd on 06/15/2017 05:01 pm
Does any one here know of a way to watch non-NASA Spacex launches that doesn't involve You-Tube?

I'm in China right now and cannot watch You-Tube.

Thanks to all.

If you can access twitch.tv just search for a few nerdy gamers lots of them take a break from gaming to restream and comment on it. Failing that I'm not quite sure, they stream directly to YouTube now days.

Your best bet is to use a VPN, I do this when abroad, although you normally need to install before you get to somewhere like China, quick google gives http://www.saporedicina.com/english/vpn-how-to-access-facebook-in-china/
If you go that route in places like China, you might want to change the name on your phone. I used a VPN there for Facebook.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rsdavis9 on 06/15/2017 09:03 pm
So does there have to be no lightning for a static fire?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/15/2017 09:36 pm
So does there have to be no lightning for a static fire?

I would think an unpredictable, unconstrained high-voltage, high-amperage electrical current discharge anywhere nearby would be a Very Bad Thing for a space launch vehicle venting clouds of  cold, gaseous oxygen.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 06/15/2017 11:09 pm
Possible final pre-ignition LOX dump occurring.

I don't think I've ever seen a 'pre-ignition LOX dump' mentioned before, Is that really a thing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 06/16/2017 02:15 am
Possible final pre-ignition LOX dump occurring.

I don't think I've ever seen a 'pre-ignition LOX dump' mentioned before, Is that really a thing?
I believe they shut the valves and vent the umbilical before ignition so there is usually a large cloud of LOX->GOX.  Every launch on the discussion thread someone will write "What was that?!?!?" :)

Watch NROL-76 at T-01:40.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BeamRider on 06/16/2017 02:19 pm
Looking at thumbnail of Bulariasat test fire over at Spaceflight Now, I think I see the payload already mounted! Anyone else see that?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 06/16/2017 02:22 pm
Looking at thumbnail of Bulariasat test fire over at Spaceflight Now, I think I see the payload already mounted! Anyone else see that?

It's not. You can see it's not in many other pictures
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: John Alan on 06/16/2017 02:23 pm
Looking at thumbnail of Bulariasat test fire over at Spaceflight Now, I think I see the payload already mounted! Anyone else see that?

The payload was NOT mounted for the static fire...

On edit...
These clear pics taken before test clearly show the payload was not present...
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1690320#msg1690320 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg1690320#msg1690320)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BeamRider on 06/16/2017 02:28 pm
Yes I see now... I mistook a patch of sky showing through the tower structure as the dome of the fairing.  Thanks and sorry to bother.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 06/16/2017 02:28 pm
Yes I see now... I mistook a patch of sky showing through the tower structure as the dome of the fairing.  Thanks and sorry to bother.

Oh, it's no problem, we all make mistakes.

After all, it IS rocket science ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: yokem55 on 06/18/2017 07:55 pm
So by fairing valve, do they mean the little vents visible on the pad that pop off in flight? Or could it be the plumbing that takes care of the thrusters for fairing orientation after fairing sep?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 06/18/2017 08:43 pm
So by fairing valve, do they mean the little vents visible on the pad that pop off in flight? Or could it be the plumbing that takes care of the thrusters for fairing orientation after fairing sep?

From update thread

Quote
Postponing launch to replace fairing pneumatic valve. It is dual redundant, but not worth taking a chance.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/876536406230712320 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/876536406230712320)

I'd guess that pneumatic valve is related to fairing separation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: guckyfan on 06/18/2017 08:45 pm
Given that they have done complex repairs over night before. Given that launch weather is not favorable. Given that they are planning on a continued high launch cadence. Maybe they decided to not push as hard for launch as they have sometimes done?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 06/18/2017 08:52 pm
Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
If schedule holds there will be two Falcon 9 launches within 48 hours (Cape & Vandenberg) this weekend https://twitter.com/spacex/status/876522478046068737 …
4:27 PM - 18 Jun 2017
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 06/18/2017 09:11 pm
Given that they have done complex repairs over night before. Given that launch weather is not favorable. Given that they are planning on a continued high launch cadence. Maybe they decided to not push as hard for launch as they have sometimes done?

May need to de-encapsulate the payload...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 06/19/2017 06:33 pm
Static Fire is June 20. Two individual launch teams, so possible to keep to the schedule, even if SpaceX launches BulgariaSat-1 the same day (based on the new back up date to the new NET 19th target).  :o
(Italics mine)

Re: possible same day launches, one each from Cape Canaveral/KSC and Vandenberg:  This presumes that there is no interference with TDRSS supporting two overlapping launch campaigns?

No immediate clash to Atlas V/EchoStar 19 then unless Atlas V slips to end of window - the launch window for Atlas V closes 13 minutes prior.  ;)
One is at the Cape and another is at Vandenberg, would that really be an issue? :D

Could be, depending on TDRS scheduling.  Atlas VAFB launches use TDRS east, and possibly all 3 locations depending on the flight profile.   Not sure about SpX.

And Echostar is definitely using TDRS east.

It's not just the launch window, it's how long through the plus-count TDRS is required.

Will one or both SpaceX launches use TDRSS?  If the answer to both launches is YES, then...

Are there any potential TDRSS scheduling conflicts, given two same-day launches?

Does Chris' statement imply that there are no such scheduling conflicts--or that the potential conflict is already worked out?

Inquiring minds want to know!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/19/2017 06:43 pm
Static Fire is June 20. Two individual launch teams, so possible to keep to the schedule, even if SpaceX launches BulgariaSat-1 the same day (based on the new back up date to the new NET 19th target).  :o
(Italics mine)

Re: possible same day launches, one each from Cape Canaveral/KSC and Vandenberg:

This would be a launch and a static fire.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 06/19/2017 06:56 pm
Static Fire is June 20. Two individual launch teams, so possible to keep to the schedule, even if SpaceX launches BulgariaSat-1 the same day (based on the new back up date to the new NET 19th target).  :o
(Italics mine)

Re: possible same day launches, one each from Cape Canaveral/KSC and Vandenberg:  This presumes that there is no interference with TDRSS supporting two overlapping launch campaigns?

No immediate clash to Atlas V/EchoStar 19 then unless Atlas V slips to end of window - the launch window for Atlas V closes 13 minutes prior.  ;)
One is at the Cape and another is at Vandenberg, would that really be an issue? :D

Could be, depending on TDRS scheduling.  Atlas VAFB launches use TDRS east, and possibly all 3 locations depending on the flight profile.   Not sure about SpX.

And Echostar is definitely using TDRS east.

It's not just the launch window, it's how long through the plus-count TDRS is required.

Will one or both SpaceX launches use TDRSS?  If the answer to both launches is YES, then...

Are there any potential TDRSS scheduling conflicts, given two same-day launches?

Does Chris' statement imply that there are no such scheduling conflicts--or that the potential conflict is already worked out?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Spacex doesn't use TDRSS
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tvg98 on 06/19/2017 11:43 pm
So it seems that the Falcon is on the pad right now. Anyone know why?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/20/2017 12:12 am
So it seems that the Falcon is on the pad right now. Anyone know why?

Asking.

Can't be another static fire. Previous was deemed good and you get notices of roadblocks etc before such an event. We'll find out.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: shuttlefan on 06/20/2017 12:40 am
So it seems that the Falcon is on the pad right now. Anyone know why?

Asking.

Can't be another static fire. Previous was deemed good and you get notices of roadblocks etc before such an event. We'll find out.

It was a surprise that they rolled out again so maybe static fire, roadblocks etc. are coming too.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sewebster on 06/20/2017 01:01 am
Maybe they want to test their new fairing valve in the vertical orientation or in some more realistic pre-flight scenario?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 06/20/2017 01:02 am
Maybe they want to test their new fairing valve in the vertical orientation or in some more realistic pre-flight scenario?

But the fairing isn't attached...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: shuttlefan on 06/20/2017 01:06 am
Maybe something with the engines has arisen just recently and they ARE going to perform another static firing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sewebster on 06/20/2017 03:35 am
Maybe they want to test their new fairing valve in the vertical orientation or in some more realistic pre-flight scenario?

But the fairing isn't attached...

Heh, makes my idea somewhat less plausible then!

Edit: Umm... I assume this is the same booster...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: shuttlefan on 06/20/2017 03:52 am
Maybe it's the booster for the next mission off Pad A after Bulgariasat, and they are going to static fire THAT one to stay on the timeline after the Bulgariasat delays. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: TrueBlueWitt on 06/20/2017 03:53 am
Maybe they want to test their new fairing valve in the vertical orientation or in some more realistic pre-flight scenario?

But the fairing isn't attached...

Heh, makes my idea somewhat less plausible then!

Edit: Umm... I assume this is the same booster...

Same booster? that raises an interesting question..
Would they leap frog the static fire of the Intelsat booster to speed up pad flow? Although mating/un-mating probably invalidates the static fire.. right? 
Or they possibly swapping boosters for some reason?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: shuttlefan on 06/20/2017 04:00 am
Maybe they want to test their new fairing valve in the vertical orientation or in some more realistic pre-flight scenario?

But the fairing isn't attached...

Heh, makes my idea somewhat less plausible then!

Edit: Umm... I assume this is the same booster...

Same booster.. that raises an interesting question..
Would they leap frog the static fire of the Intelsat booster to speed up pad flow? Although mating/un-mating probably invalidates the static fire.. right?  Or they possibly swapping boosters for some reason?

That's precisely what I am beginning to wonder, about leapfrogging the static fire for the Intelsat booster!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/20/2017 10:37 am
I thought there was only one strong back. That would require demating and destacking... Seems like a large amount of work to quickly do one test.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 06/20/2017 11:01 am
Very funny to witness the ongoing discussion about potentially another static fire or leap frogging boosters.

There are more reasons than just static fires and launches for a booster to be present on the launchpad.

Never heard of AS-500F? Or the 1986 Atlantis pad tests? Just sayin...


Edit: Now that Chris has thrown it in the public thread (see post below) I can be more specific: GSE testing. Which has been done in the past with flight(like) hardware. Specifically the AS-500F and 1986 Atlantis tests that I mentioned above.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/20/2017 11:08 am
So it seems that the Falcon is on the pad right now. Anyone know why?

Asking.

Can't be another static fire. Previous was deemed good and you get notices of roadblocks etc before such an event. We'll find out.

We believe it's just a GSE test opportunity with a booster on the TEL and a launch delay due to the valve R&R. Waiting for confirmation. In other words, a clever use of the opportunity of having a booster sat on the TEL during a delay not relevant to the rocket.

--

Edit: And it was. Rolling back to the HIF.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/23/2017 01:15 pm
Brady out there for NSF taking snap again :) Chris G and Philip are at the Iridium launch. We're covered ;D

https://twitter.com/TheFavoritist/status/878229330391965699
Those wide angle shots are pretty but the lens distortion makes it looks like the pad structures,  T/E and F9 are leaning! Freaked me out a bit. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 01:18 pm
Head of BulgariaSat says satellite project would be impossible without SpaceX

Quote
On the eve of the launch of his country’s first communications satellite on a Falcon 9 rocket, the chief executive of BulgariaSat credited SpaceX’s cost-cutting ways with making space accessible for small nations and money-conscious companies like his own.

Maxim Zayakov, CEO of BulgariaSat and its affiliate television provider Bulsatcom, told Spacefight Now that SpaceX’s push to reduce the cost of space transportation has yielded tangible results for his country.

“People don’t realize that, for small countries and small companies like us, without SpaceX, there was no way we would ever be able to even think about space,” Zayakov said. “With them, it was possible. We got a project. I think, in the future, it’s going to be even more affordable because of reusability.”

https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/06/22/head-of-bulgariasat-says-satellite-project-would-be-impossible-without-spacex/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/23/2017 03:50 pm
Doesn't qualify as an update, so I'll post here:

Quote
Good luck (успех) #BulgariaSat-1! We are excited to see the first #IridiumNEXT "flight-proven" booster back in action!

https://twitter.com/iridiumcomm/status/878260847314739200 (https://twitter.com/iridiumcomm/status/878260847314739200)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kaputnik on 06/23/2017 06:10 pm
Launch pushed back an hour... F9 and payload are healthy... I, however, am not, cos I'll miss the launch now. Boo! Look forward to catching the replays.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/23/2017 06:16 pm
Tweet from Elon Musk: (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/878313692986621953)
Quote
Falcon 9 will experience its highest ever reentry force and heat in today's launch. Good chance rocket booster doesn't make it back.

Going for a better orbit, or playing with a booster they don't intend to reuse more than once?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 06/23/2017 06:18 pm
Tweet from Elon Musk: (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/878313692986621953)
Quote
Falcon 9 will experience its highest ever reentry force and heat in today's launch. Good chance rocket booster doesn't make it back.

Going for a better orbit, or playing with a booster they don't intend to reuse more than once?

sounds like play time to me
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 06:18 pm
Tweet from Elon Musk: (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/878313692986621953)
Quote
Falcon 9 will experience its highest ever reentry force and heat in today's launch. Good chance rocket booster doesn't make it back.

Going for a better orbit, or playing with a booster they don't intend to reuse more than once?

Probably mostly the latter, I would think. A chance to see how much damage it can take.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: John Alan on 06/23/2017 06:20 pm
Tweet from Elon Musk: (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/878313692986621953)
Quote
Falcon 9 will experience its highest ever reentry force and heat in today's launch. Good chance rocket booster doesn't make it back.

Going for a better orbit, or playing with a booster they don't intend to reuse more than once?

If you don't try to burn one on reentry... you will never know the limits...
I applaud the fact they are taking chances to learn where the corners are in the envelope...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 06/23/2017 06:21 pm
Based on how awesome B1021 did during SES-10, I'm going to assume that B1029 makes it back alive.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: The_Ronin on 06/23/2017 06:48 pm
Is there no technical webcast for this launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/23/2017 06:53 pm
Based on how awesome B1021 did during SES-10, I'm going to assume that B1029 makes it back alive.
That's how you Jinx it
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AC in NC on 06/23/2017 06:58 pm
Tweet from Elon Musk: (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/878313692986621953)
Quote
Falcon 9 will experience its highest ever reentry force and heat in today's launch. Good chance rocket booster doesn't make it back.

Going for a better orbit, or playing with a booster they don't intend to reuse more than once?

Seems like it's gotta be both considering the mass (3669kg by the Manifest Thread)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: andrewsdanj on 06/23/2017 07:00 pm
Most extreme reentry yet? Could this be a FH centre core reentry ptactice (with a non FH core, obviously)?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Mike_1179 on 06/23/2017 07:02 pm
Most extreme reentry yet? Could this be a FH centre core reentry ptactice (with a non FH core, obviously)?

If the FH core is going to use larger titanium grid fins, and this has the regular smaller ones, then less useful for that
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rabe0070 on 06/23/2017 07:19 pm
Landed! Looks really low. Used up those crush cores.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mvpel on 06/23/2017 07:20 pm
Landed! Looks really low. Used up those crush cores.

And then some! Wow!!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kirghizstan on 06/23/2017 07:20 pm
Anyone else think it looks like it used a lot of the crush core on all 4 legs?  seems very low on the deck
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sghill on 06/23/2017 07:21 pm
Collective gasp when the water plumes kicked up off to the side of the barge deck!!!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mikelepage on 06/23/2017 07:21 pm
Also not sure if camera angle or if it's the leaning booster of BulgariaSat...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/23/2017 07:22 pm
So I guess you still don't need to give up hope on Bingo if all the center spots are taken.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: andrewsdanj on 06/23/2017 07:22 pm
Now THAT'S a toasty stage.  I wonder how much is left of the incandescent grid fins?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Semmel on 06/23/2017 07:22 pm
Landed! Looks really low. Used up those crush cores.

yeah, looked like it broke its legs upon landing..
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris_Pi on 06/23/2017 07:22 pm
Guess it's now the Slightly leaning tower of Thiacom-8. This one looks like it hit awfully hard. Good timing on the rocket roomba apparently.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: The_Ronin on 06/23/2017 07:23 pm
It was leaning big time and the lean was increasing as you watched.  Wouldn't be surprised if it tips over.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Joffan on 06/23/2017 07:23 pm
That's what I'd call a hard landing. But in the same mindset; it's good.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bargemanos on 06/23/2017 07:23 pm
WOW! I thought this one went all wrong.
Seems like all legs crushers are crushed. Its leaning. Hope it makes it to secure attach.


Made a little walk i guess on the deck.
Video of this landing should be supprising
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Surfdaddy on 06/23/2017 07:23 pm
It looks like it might have come from off center, impacted hard on the far side of the landing zone and scooted to its final resting place? It seemed like the opposite side of the landing circle paint had been blasted?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bynaus on 06/23/2017 07:24 pm
Anyone else think it looks like it used a lot of the crush core on all 4 legs?  seems very low on the deck

Had the same thought. First over water, then a black burn mark on the deck halfway towards the booster, then low on the deck. Certainly looks like a bumpy landing - but they nailed it nevertheless!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Scylla on 06/23/2017 07:24 pm
Roll the Octagraber!!!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:24 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Tuts36 on 06/23/2017 07:24 pm
Landed! Looks really low. Used up those crush cores.

yeah, looked like it broke its legs upon landing..


I hope there's enough clearance left for Optimus Prime to do his thing...?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: matt_ellis on 06/23/2017 07:24 pm
Roomba opp? (How low can Roomba go under those legs!)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 06/23/2017 07:25 pm
makes me wonder how-low-it-can-go for the roomba to still be able to come in underneath
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mr_magoo on 06/23/2017 07:25 pm
I thought they didn't refinish the drone ship deck this time?     Those burn patterns could include some old marks.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/23/2017 07:25 pm
Collective gasp when the water plumes kicked up off to the side of the barge deck!!!

Makes me wonder if they do a bit of a cork screw on the way in to turn excess vertical thrust into a horizontal component.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:26 pm
It looks like it might have come from off center, impacted hard on the far side of the ship and scooted to its final resting place? It seemed like the opposite side of the landing circle paint had been blasted?

It always comes it at a pretty severe angle... final divert trajectory, it seems. See a previous landing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPGUQySBikQ
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/23/2017 07:26 pm
There's a considerable amount of distortion from the camera. Notice the curving railings.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 06/23/2017 07:26 pm
Call me Nostradamus, guys.

I knew all along that B1029 would land safely.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: andrewsdanj on 06/23/2017 07:26 pm
It looks like it might have come from off center, impacted hard on the far side of the landing zone and scooted to its final resting place? It seemed like the opposite side of the landing circle paint had been blasted?

I'd posit that that's what a landing with melty grid fins looks like ;-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ellindsey on 06/23/2017 07:27 pm
Reeentry-induced grid fin damage on one side leading to it coming in more off-center than desired, followed by a dramatic correction at the last second, perhaps?  Impressive that it survived at all.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:27 pm
There's a considerable amount of distortion from the camera. Notice the curving railings.

Yep. Not a single straight line from that wide angle lens.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/23/2017 07:27 pm
It's LEANING.

That looks like barrel distortion from the wide-angle lens more than anything else.  No doubt that was a hard landing, though. 

Yes, but compare it to the sea horizon at the point the vehicle body and it meet, it really doesn't appear to be completely vertical. If it came in at a horizontal velocity as that off-ship water plume suggests, this might make it the most sporty landing yet that didn't result in vehicle loss.

Either way, good to see the stage make it back.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/23/2017 07:27 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

And it also has to crab into the wind to compensate for lateral drift
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 07:27 pm
There's a considerable amount of distortion from the camera. Notice the curving railings.

For a start where is the camera located on the ship?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 06/23/2017 07:28 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:28 pm
It's LEANING.

That looks like barrel distortion from the wide-angle lens more than anything else.  No doubt that was a hard landing, though. 

Yes, but compare it to the sea horizon at the point the vehicle body and it meet, it really doesn't appear to be completely vertical. If it came in at a horizontal velocity as that off-ship water plume suggests, this might make it the most sporty landing yet that didn't result in vehicle loss.

Either way, good to see the stage make it back.

That line would only look vertical (if vertical), if it is in the middle of the image. Your assumption does not hold for things off-center in such a distorted wide angle lens.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 07:28 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Helodriver on 06/23/2017 07:29 pm
So I guess you still don't need to give up hope on Bingo if all the center spots are taken.

Glad to say I didn't win the bingo this time around... and that landing folks is why we still play!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rocket Science on 06/23/2017 07:29 pm
There appeared to be a big heaving of the deck right before the video signal dropped out which "could" account for the off center landing...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 06/23/2017 07:29 pm
Fairings?  any news on ops for recovery, or still testing bouncy castle designs?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sanman on 06/23/2017 07:30 pm
Is Optimus/Roomba being used on this landing?

How have they tested it out, prior to this? Is it tele-coperated, or does it have some kind of AI or some other type of guidance?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jaredgalen on 06/23/2017 07:32 pm
There was talk of introducing titanium grid fins to make them more resilient during reentry. Has this happened yet? 🤔
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tyrred on 06/23/2017 07:32 pm
There appeared to be a big heaving of the deck right before the video signal dropped out which "could" account for the off center landing...
I saw a wave crashing at ships' edge just before signal drop off.  Then my mind immediately re-interpreted as rocket exhaust plume impingement.  Anxiously awaiting full footage to find out which brain is correct.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: chrisking0997 on 06/23/2017 07:33 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release


I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

could be some cloud shadows in play there too
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 06/23/2017 07:33 pm
There was talk of introducing titanium grid fins to make them more resilient during reentry. Has this happened yet? 🤔

No, not yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:34 pm
There was talk of introducing titanium grid fins to make them more resilient during reentry. Has this happened yet?

According to some on Reddit, the next flight (2 days!) will have new grid fins.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 06/23/2017 07:34 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

this is what i see
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 06/23/2017 07:34 pm
Elon on Twitter:
Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Rocket is extra toasty and hit the deck hard (used almost all of the emergency crush core), but otherwise good

Doesn't look like B1029 will be reused again.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 07:34 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release


I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

could be some cloud shadows in play there too

Be interesting to see the landing video for this one as it looks like it worked hard to get onto the deck of the drone ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2017 07:35 pm
bank shot!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rebel44 on 06/23/2017 07:35 pm
It would be nice to get a drone footage (just like CRS-8 footage) of 3 engine landing burn
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:35 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

this is what i see

Thrust gimbal can cause that. And shadows. It does not mean that the stage moved like that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mlindner on 06/23/2017 07:35 pm
There was talk of introducing titanium grid fins to make them more resilient during reentry. Has this happened yet? 🤔

That happens in Block 5 (possibly we'll see it early in Block 4).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 07:36 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

this is what i see

Thrust gimbal can cause that. And shadows. It does not mean that the stage moved like that.

So it did a side shuffle so to speak to get onto the deck then?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/23/2017 07:36 pm
It's LEANING.

That looks like barrel distortion from the wide-angle lens more than anything else.  No doubt that was a hard landing, though. 

Yes, but compare it to the sea horizon at the point the vehicle body and it meet, it really doesn't appear to be completely vertical. If it came in at a horizontal velocity as that off-ship water plume suggests, this might make it the most sporty landing yet that didn't result in vehicle loss.

Either way, good to see the stage make it back.

That line would only look vertical (if vertical), if it is in the middle of the image. Your assumption does not hold for things off-center in such a distorted wide angle lens.

Even accounting for that, my gut tells me it's tilted too much. We shall see soon enough.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: clegg78 on 06/23/2017 07:36 pm
Do we know if this was a 3 engine landing burn like they attempted before (and put a rocket into the ship doing it a few times)?   Seemed a bit less elegant than some of the last drone ship landings which makes me wonder if that is the case.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:37 pm
The good folks in west central Africa are about to get a interesting night light show as the 2nd stage re-starts. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 06/23/2017 07:37 pm
Elon on Twitter:
Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Rocket is extra toasty and hit the deck hard (used almost all of the emergency crush core), but otherwise good

Doesn't look like B1029 will be reused again.

Why? They don't reuse the legs and they seem to be replacing all the TPS anyway right now, so how much of it was used is irrelevant.

They don't seem to have plans to reuse block 3 stages more than once anyway, but I don't see why this one is any worse than any others.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/23/2017 07:37 pm
Do we know if this was a 3 engine landing burn like they attempted before (and put a rocket into the ship doing it a few times)?   Seemed a bit less elegant than some of the last drone ship landings which makes me wonder if that is the case.

Yes, a 3 engine landing burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jtrame on 06/23/2017 07:41 pm
Don't see any reason it couldn't be reused again.  Depending on how much refurbishment they want to do.  Too early to make that determination on our part.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Quagga on 06/23/2017 07:42 pm
My attempt at removing the distortion.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JimO on 06/23/2017 07:42 pm
The good folks in west central Africa are about to get a interesting night light show as the 2nd stage retstarts. :)

How dark is the sky there yet? Downtrack, if there's a fuel dump, might be even more spectacular?

Here's my overview of typical fuel dump cloud spotting in the past...
http://satobs.org/seesat_ref/misc/Space_clouds-Strange_Spinoff_of_the_Space_Age.pdf
 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 07:42 pm
Elon on Twitter:
Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Rocket is extra toasty and hit the deck hard (used almost all of the emergency crush core), but otherwise good

Doesn't look like B1029 will be reused again.

Why? They don't reuse the legs and they seem to be replacing all the TPS anyway right now, so how much of it was used is irrelevant.

They don't seem to have plans to reuse block 3 stages more than once anyway, but I don't see why this one is any worse than any others.

Surprising are they not suitable for any more than one reuse?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: The_Ronin on 06/23/2017 07:42 pm
was this the first successful 3 engine landing burn?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JWag on 06/23/2017 07:42 pm
Even accounting for that, my gut tells me it's tilted too much. We shall see soon enough.
Drew some red lines eyeballing various vertical elements in the picture.

I got $1 says she's a-tiltin'
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jimbowman on 06/23/2017 07:43 pm
"It's an aluminum honeycomb cartridge, so only a couple of hours to replace"

Musk on twitter
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/23/2017 07:43 pm
My attempt at removing the distortion.

Looks much better!!!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:43 pm
Don't see any reason it couldn't be reused again.  Depending on how much refurbishment they want to do.  Too early to make that determination on our part.

Since they are transitioning to block 4 (in 2 flights?) and soon block 5, it might also be too much trouble to reuse it, even if it is in top shape.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 07:44 pm
Even accounting for that, my gut tells me it's tilted too much. We shall see soon enough.
Drew some red lines eyeballing various vertical elements in the picture.

I got $1 says she's a-tiltin'

You are doing it wrong. Lines are NOT straight at all in this lens. Or do you think the ocean is curved?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Survtech on 06/23/2017 07:46 pm
Doesn't look like B1029 will be reused again.
I was under the impression that being a (Block 3?) booster, it wasn't slated for reuse anyway.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/23/2017 07:47 pm
The good folks in west central Africa are about to get a interesting night light show as the 2nd stage retstarts. :)

How dark is the sky there yet? Downtrack, if there's a fuel dump, might be even more spectacular?

Here's my overview of typical fuel dump cloud spotting in the past...
http://satobs.org/seesat_ref/misc/Space_clouds-Strange_Spinoff_of_the_Space_Age.pdf
 


Should be what, 8, 9pm
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 07:48 pm
Doesn't look like B1029 will be reused again.
I was under the impression that being a (Block 3?) booster, it wasn't slated for reuse anyway.

Isn't Sunday's launch the final block 3 use?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 06/23/2017 07:49 pm
They don't seem to have plans to reuse block 3 stages more than once anyway, but I don't see why this one is any worse than any others.

Surprising are they not suitable for any more than one reuse?

There are new block 4 and block 5 boosters coming that have improvements and they have plenty of boosters around now. They might do multiple reuse as a proof of concept, but I don't think it will be the norm until block 5. The CRS-9/SES-10 booster is a museum piece, so if they reuse any block 3 boosters a 3rd time this one would be it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 06/23/2017 07:52 pm
They don't seem to have plans to reuse block 3 stages more than once anyway, but I don't see why this one is any worse than any others.

Surprising are they not suitable for any more than one reuse?

There are new block 4 and block 5 boosters coming that have improvements and they have plenty of boosters around now. They might do multiple reuse as a proof of concept, but I don't think it will be the norm until block 5. The CRS-9/SES-10 booster is a museum piece, so if they reuse any block 3 boosters a 3rd time this one would be it.

Block 5 has all the main upgrades with stuff like new grid find etc so we'll have to wait for that for multiple reuse then by the sounds of it as block 4 just appears to be an incremental upgrade.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bdub217 on 06/23/2017 07:52 pm
Doesn't look like B1029 will be reused again.
I was under the impression that being a (Block 3?) booster, it wasn't slated for reuse anyway.

I'm sure elon will want to send a flight proven booster to the Smithsonian one of these days.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 06/23/2017 07:54 pm
Doesn't look like B1029 will be reused again.
I was under the impression that being a (Block 3?) booster, it wasn't slated for reuse anyway.

I'm sure elon will want to send a flight proven booster to the Smithsonian one of these days.

He can send the first with ten reuses.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 06/23/2017 07:56 pm
There was a great shot of the second stage motoring away from the perspective of the 1st stage looking "up", and since there was no boostback burn it didn't rotate away for the duration of the shot.  Not sure if we've seen something like that before?  But in any case, it was very cool to see.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dwheeler on 06/23/2017 07:58 pm
Even accounting for that, my gut tells me it's tilted too much. We shall see soon enough.
Drew some red lines eyeballing various vertical elements in the picture.

I got $1 says she's a-tiltin'

You are doing it wrong. Lines are NOT straight at all in this lens. Or do you think the ocean is curved?
Agree the lines are not straight in this lens. But I do think the earth is curved.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kirghizstan on 06/23/2017 07:58 pm
Even accounting for that, my gut tells me it's tilted too much. We shall see soon enough.
Drew some red lines eyeballing various vertical elements in the picture.

I got $1 says she's a-tiltin'

You are doing it wrong. Lines are NOT straight at all in this lens. Or do you think the ocean is curved?


Technically the ocean is curved
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Helodriver on 06/23/2017 07:58 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

this is what i see


Dark marks on the right I think are shadow of the upper part of the booster and grid fins. It did leave a trail across the deck though.

https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone (https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 06/23/2017 07:59 pm
I'm sure elon will want to send a flight proven booster to the Smithsonian one of these days.

You could do an entire SpaceX gallery of milestones, but the problem is where to put it.  The Udvar-Hazy is pretty full as it is.  Not sure where you would shoe-horn in an entire first stage.  Maybe they need an outdoor rocket garden?  Only problem then could be proximity to the Dulles runway.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 06/23/2017 08:02 pm
I'm sure elon will want to send a flight proven booster to the Smithsonian one of these days.

You could do an entire SpaceX gallery of milestones, but the problem is where to put it.  The Udvar-Hazy is pretty full as it is.  Not sure where you would shoe-horn in an entire first stage.  Maybe they need an outdoor rocket garden?  Only problem then could be proximity to the Dulles runway.

I think SpaceX deserves a hanger like Shuttle. It should have the a Falcon 1, the remains of the satellite that crashed through their shed, the GH1, the SpaceX cowboy, the wheel of cheese, and the first retired block 5 booster. And some space for the future. Someone would have to pay for all that though. Elon?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 06/23/2017 08:03 pm
There was a great shot of the second stage motoring away from the perspective of the 1st stage looking "up", and since there was no boostback burn it didn't rotate away for the duration of the shot.  Not sure if we've seen something like that before?  But in any case, it was very cool to see.

(https://j.gifs.com/0gGPOG.gif)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CharlieWildman on 06/23/2017 08:06 pm
Looks to me like its leaning about 3 degrees.  Time will tell of course.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RDMM2081 on 06/23/2017 08:08 pm
There was a great shot of the second stage motoring away from the perspective of the 1st stage looking "up", and since there was no boostback burn it didn't rotate away for the duration of the shot.  Not sure if we've seen something like that before?  But in any case, it was very cool to see.

(https://j.gifs.com/0gGPOG.gif)

I've been meaning to ask, and this seems like a good opportunity with your excellent gif of the action (thank you!) but what exactly (or approximately) is that structure seemingly made out of the tubular metal(?).  I cant even wrap my head around which stage it is on, I kind of think it is on stage 1, and lives in the interstage, but can anyone help clarify or help me get my bearings?  Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 06/23/2017 08:08 pm
There was a great shot of the second stage motoring away from the perspective of the 1st stage looking "up", and since there was no boostback burn it didn't rotate away for the duration of the shot.  Not sure if we've seen something like that before?  But in any case, it was very cool to see.

For some strange reason, that brings back a memory of the 3rd Falcon 1 launch that managed to rear-end itself from residual thrust.  Would be funny to put the two clips side by side to show what should and should not happen.  Of course, the perspective would be reversed as the camera was on the 2nd stage of the Falcon 1.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 06/23/2017 08:09 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

this is what i see


Dark marks on the right I think are shadow of the upper part of the booster and grid fins. It did leave a trail across the deck though.

https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone (https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone)

i think there is a bit of overlap of soot and shadow. i marked green what i think is shadow alone.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 06/23/2017 08:10 pm
I've been meaning to ask, and this seems like a good opportunity with your excellent gif of the action (thank you!) but what exactly (or approximately) is that structure seemingly made out of the tubular metal(?).  I cant even wrap my head around which stage it is on, I kind of think it is on stage 1, and lives in the interstage, but can anyone help clarify or help me get my bearings?  Thanks!
You're welcome! :D.

It's the central pusher they added a while back, to augment the three pushers around the top of the interstage that effect stage separation.  It is in fact in the interstage, looking "up" at the second stage flying away.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/23/2017 08:10 pm
There was a great shot of the second stage motoring away from the perspective of the 1st stage looking "up", and since there was no boostback burn it didn't rotate away for the duration of the shot.  Not sure if we've seen something like that before?

There were a couple of earlier instances, but I think this is the first time that shows it in 30 fps. You can even see the nozzle stiffener rings break off in this one. CRS-11 was also 30fps, but had that fast flip around.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 06/23/2017 08:12 pm
I've been meaning to ask, and this seems like a good opportunity with your excellent gif of the action (thank you!) but what exactly (or approximately) is that structure seemingly made out of the tubular metal(?).  I cant even wrap my head around which stage it is on, I kind of think it is on stage 1, and lives in the interstage, but can anyone help clarify or help me get my bearings?  Thanks!

Center pusher added to the FT (aka v1.2, aka block 3) rocket.  Rams a plunger right up the engine's throat.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 06/23/2017 08:17 pm
i was just thinking, with 3 engines, they could have all been gimbaled in different directions/thurst levels. would there be any advantage to that? landing might have been more tame that it looks?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rocket Science on 06/23/2017 08:18 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

this is what i see


Dark marks on the right I think are shadow of the upper part of the booster and grid fins. It did leave a trail across the deck though.

https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone (https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone)
Thanks for the gif Helo, it shows what I thought was the heave of the deck before touchdown...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 06/23/2017 08:22 pm
That's definitely engine exhaust spray, not a wave breaking. 
Ocean too flat and wash seen around edge of spray.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 06/23/2017 08:25 pm
I was too young to see the flight of our second Bulgarian cosmonaut and I was not yet born when our first satellite and our first cosmonaut launched.

Today, however, I feel privileged to see the launch of our second satellite in space. Although Bulgaria is a space country - bulgarian instrument is currently flying aboard ExoMars-2016 around Mars, and we've launched a similar instrument aboard Chandrayaan-1 to the moon, the fact that we have a private satellite in space is significant.

Thank you, SpaceX, for making us, Bulgarians, feel proud.

This^
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bob the martian on 06/23/2017 08:26 pm
Looks to me like its leaning about 3 degrees.  Time will tell of course.

Most of that is barrel distortion from the lens (note the extreme curvature of the horizon and the curve of the barge edges). 

Given the burn mark on the other side of the target, though, it looks like it bounced a bit after landing, so maybe one of the legs is a little compressed. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kosmos2001 on 06/23/2017 08:28 pm
i was just thinking, with 3 engines, they could have all been gimbaled in different directions/thurst levels. would there be any advantage to that? landing might have been more tame that it looks?

Aren't the 8 surrounding ones too close to each other to gimbal?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 08:37 pm
i was just thinking, with 3 engines, they could have all been gimbaled in different directions/thurst levels. would there be any advantage to that? landing might have been more tame that it looks?

There is no advantage in that, it just reduces their efficiency.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AnalogMan on 06/23/2017 08:47 pm
I've been meaning to ask, and this seems like a good opportunity with your excellent gif of the action (thank you!) but what exactly (or approximately) is that structure seemingly made out of the tubular metal(?).  I cant even wrap my head around which stage it is on, I kind of think it is on stage 1, and lives in the interstage, but can anyone help clarify or help me get my bearings?  Thanks!

The tubular structure supports a pusher rod that helps the stages separate cleanly.  It is mounted on the top dome of the first stage, and is basically three tubes in tripod arrangement supporting a vertical pusher mechanism.

The graphic below shows the pusher both in its stowed and extended positions in relation to the second stage engine.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: edkyle99 on 06/23/2017 08:49 pm
Was this the first successful 3-engine landing?

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 06/23/2017 08:52 pm
Was this the first successful 3-engine landing?

 - Ed Kyle

JCSat 14 used a 3-1 landing burn while Thaicom 8 used a 1-3-1 landing burn, so both can technically count as the first successful 3-engine landings.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/23/2017 08:53 pm
Was this the first successful 3-engine landing?

 - Ed Kyle

JCSat 14 used a 3-1 landing burn while Thaicom 8 used a 1-3-1 landing burn, so both can technically count as the first successful 3-engine landings.

It's highly likely any 3 engine profile is always 1-3-1, like the boostback and reentry burns use.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 06/23/2017 08:54 pm
Was this the first successful 3-engine landing?

 - Ed Kyle

JCSat 14 used a 3-1 landing burn while Thaicom 8 used a 1-3-1 landing burn, so both can technically count as the first successful 3-engine landings.

3 all the way to the deck?  That's some fine timing to be sure.

If this booster fly's again that will be the true measure of success.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RDMM2081 on 06/23/2017 08:58 pm
I've been meaning to ask, and this seems like a good opportunity with your excellent gif of the action (thank you!) but what exactly (or approximately) is that structure seemingly made out of the tubular metal(?).  I cant even wrap my head around which stage it is on, I kind of think it is on stage 1, and lives in the interstage, but can anyone help clarify or help me get my bearings?  Thanks!

The tubular structure supports a pusher rod that helps the stages separate cleanly.  It is mounted on the top dome of the first stage, and is basically three tubes in tripod arrangement supporting a vertical pusher mechanism.

The graphic below shows the pusher both in its stowed and extended positions in relation to the second stage engine.

Wow, ask and ye shall receive! Thank you, that is what I was hoping to understand, I simply couldn't make sense of it in the grand scheme of the rocket configuration without that picture and description.  It is a very interesting mechanism, and it seems to me a great example of SpaceX demonstrating their devotion to the KISS methodology!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 06/23/2017 09:21 pm
Yes, the best way to ensure the delicate Mvac engine nozzle edges don't hit the interstage is to grab the top stage by the nozzle and push it straight out.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JAFO on 06/23/2017 09:28 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2017 09:31 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?

It pushes against the nozzle throat, which is the narrowest convergence of the nozzle. The injector is farther up inside the thrust chamber.

If you watch the gif again, you can see some sort of "fist" at the end of the pusher that's a bit bigger than the throat diameter, so it can't fit through the throat and get inside the thrust chamber.

So it's like pushing into a large funnel with your fist.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: MrHollifield on 06/23/2017 09:35 pm
It did only appear like it was hovering above water before the transmission cut briefly, but keep in mind that the stage is coming in at an angle (see other drone ships landings shot from a distance), and a 3 engine landing burn will reach a bit further and impinge the ocean more.  :)

looks like there is a soot trail clear from one side of the asds to the other. will be interesting to see the non-live video release

I noticed that the soot trail runs from the edge of the ship inwards. I didn't think it ran from both sides but just from the right.

this is what i see


Dark marks on the right I think are shadow of the upper part of the booster and grid fins. It did leave a trail across the deck though.

https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone (https://gfycat.com/ThinSphericalAbalone)

Thanks, Helodriver, for the GIF. The more I look at it, the more I think the darkness forward of the booster is just cloud shadow. From the shadow on the leg closest the camera, it is apparent the sun is coming from that direction. That means any shadow to the right of the stage are from off the ASDS, i.e. clouds. Also, the darkness behind and to the right of the stage continues into the water, again appearing to be cloud.

And looking at the other side of the stage, the deck features visible in the "before" frame are still there in the "after" frame, just dimmed. If 3 M1D exhausts had been dragged across the deck, I think they would have left more of a footprint on the deck.

Can't wait to see the onboard video to know what really happened  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Martin.cz on 06/23/2017 09:37 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?

It pushes against the nozzle throat, which is the narrowest convergence of the nozzle. The injector is farther up inside the engine.
I guess given the working pressures and temperatures a gentle evenly placed straight-up push should not be an issue, right ?

In any case a very effective and elegant engineering solution! (IMHO)

That reminds me - are there any other multi-stage rockets using a similar up-the-nozzle-throat pushers during stage separation or is the Falcon 9 FT a on-of-a-kind in this regard ?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 06/23/2017 09:39 pm
Remember that it's normal for the drone ship cameras to cut out just before touchdown because the satellite link is all that SpaceX can afford.

...because no amount of money can buy you a satellite uplink from the middle of the Atlantic ocean through an ionized exhaust plume as an 18-ton 165-ft tall rocket lands on top of you.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2017 09:44 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?

It pushes against the nozzle throat, which is the narrowest convergence of the nozzle. The injector is farther up inside the engine.
I guess given the working pressures and temperatures a gentle evenly placed straight-up push should not be an issue, right ?

In any case a very effective and elegant engineering solution! (IMHO)

That reminds me - are there any other multi-stage rockets using a similar up-the-nozzle-throat pushers during stage separation or is the Falcon 9 FT a on-of-a-kind in this regard ?

The throat is typically the strongest part of the nozzle, because it experiences the highest pressure (=chamber pressure) in the exhaust stream. Pressure then drops downstream of the nozzle as the exhaust expands and accelerates. So the nozzle throat has to be beefy, and as long as you cushion the push, so to speak, it's a good place to push on.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: TrevorMonty on 06/23/2017 09:45 pm
Was this the first successful 3-engine landing?

 - Ed Kyle

JCSat 14 used a 3-1 landing burn while Thaicom 8 used a 1-3-1 landing burn, so both can technically count as the first successful 3-engine landings.

3 all the way to the deck?  That's some fine timing to be sure.

If this booster fly's again that will be the true measure of success.
Even if stage doesn't fly again alot parts from it will. Still significant savings to had in recovering these hot entry stages.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SoulWager on 06/23/2017 09:47 pm
Remember that it's normal for the drone ship cameras to cut out just before touchdown because the satellite link is all that SpaceX can afford.

...because no amount of money can buy you a satellite uplink from the middle of the Atlantic ocean through an ionized exhaust plume as an 18-ton 165-ft tall rocket lands on top of you.
I'd disagree with that. You can build a buoy with your uplink antenna on it, and run a cable back to the ASDS. Get your antenna far enough from the rocket that it doesn't lose signal. It's certainly within the means of SpaceX, just not worth the expense or the recovery team's labor deploying and retrieving it all the time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2017 09:49 pm
Remember that it's normal for the drone ship cameras to cut out just before touchdown because the satellite link is all that SpaceX can afford.

...because no amount of money can buy you a satellite uplink from the middle of the Atlantic ocean through an ionized exhaust plume as an 18-ton 165-ft tall rocket lands on top of you.

Isn't it actually the vibration that causes the dish to lose signal lock? IIRC that's what one of the SX'ers said somewhere, and we always see the ASDS camera start to vibrate just before LOS.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34077.msg1499726#msg1499726

Not disagreeing with your point that it's hard, though. ;-)

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 06/23/2017 10:01 pm
Remember that it's normal for the drone ship cameras to cut out just before touchdown because the satellite link is all that SpaceX can afford.

...because no amount of money can buy you a satellite uplink from the middle of the Atlantic ocean through an ionized exhaust plume as an 18-ton 165-ft tall rocket lands on top of you.

Isn't it actually the vibration that causes the dish to lose signal lock? IIRC that's what one of the SX'ers said somewhere, and we always see the ASDS camera start to vibrate just before LOS.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34077.msg1499726#msg1499726
Right, I shouldn't have said "no amount of money". Absolutes get you in trouble.

It is the vibration that is the main issue AIUI. I'm sure enough money *could* solve the problem... ie moor another ASDS a mile off, and stream from that... but it's not worth the $$$.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 06/23/2017 10:09 pm
...but it's not worth the $$$.
Especially when it's only for our convenience and viewing pleasure.  SpaceX has good recordings, but they simply aren't available until afterwards.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sanman on 06/23/2017 10:13 pm
It is the vibration that is the main issue AIUI. I'm sure enough money *could* solve the problem... ie moor another ASDS a mile off, and stream from that... but it's not worth the $$$.

Why use another ASDS - why not just have a trailing buoy with an antenna on it, or something?
Can't be that expensive.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 06/23/2017 10:23 pm
Congratulations SpaceX on another successful mission. 

Do I really have to wait another 2 whole days until the next launch attempt?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: virnin on 06/23/2017 10:28 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?

It pushes against the nozzle throat, which is the narrowest convergence of the nozzle. The injector is farther up inside the engine.
I guess given the working pressures and temperatures a gentle evenly placed straight-up push should not be an issue, right ?

From re-watching the GIF playing above, I'm thinking the push was NOT straight-up or perhaps not evenly placed.  The US was definitely rotating before the MVAC fired up and it took a few more seconds after that for the stage to straighten up.  If it hadn't rotated back to thrusting straight in-line with the camera view, I would write it off to rotation of the 1st stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/23/2017 10:47 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?

It pushes against the nozzle throat, which is the narrowest convergence of the nozzle. The injector is farther up inside the engine.
I guess given the working pressures and temperatures a gentle evenly placed straight-up push should not be an issue, right ?

From re-watching the GIF playing above, I'm thinking the push was NOT straight-up or perhaps not evenly placed.  The US was definitely rotating before the MVAC fired up and it took a few more seconds after that for the stage to straighten up.  If it hadn't rotated back to thrusting straight in-line with the camera view, I would write it off to rotation of the 1st stage.

No, it is still likely caused by a very slight rotation of the first stage (and entire stack) after MECO. The 2nd stage simply compensates once the MVac ignites.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2017 11:01 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?

It pushes against the nozzle throat, which is the narrowest convergence of the nozzle. The injector is farther up inside the engine.
I guess given the working pressures and temperatures a gentle evenly placed straight-up push should not be an issue, right ?

From re-watching the GIF playing above, I'm thinking the push was NOT straight-up or perhaps not evenly placed.  The US was definitely rotating before the MVAC fired up and it took a few more seconds after that for the stage to straighten up.  If it hadn't rotated back to thrusting straight in-line with the camera view, I would write it off to rotation of the 1st stage.

No separation event is perfect, they all have some slight asymmetry. Every separation system/event is analyzed during design for "tip-off rates", ie pitch/yaw induced by the separation event. What you see is a small "tip-off rate" of either the first or second stage, or both since the pusher acts equally on both stages.

So, even though the system is designed to push along the centerline, it's never going to result in a perfect zero-rate tip-off ; there's always some small residual pitch/yaw effect that gets nulled by the GNC system when the main engine starts up.*

(*My favorite bad S1/S2 separation story is from an early Pegasus flight where the shaped detonating cord failed to completely sever the interstage. So the first stage was still hanging onto the second stage by several strands of carbon fiber, and it swung the whole stack around so that stage 2 was facing almost 180 degrees backwards when it fired, breaking free of stage 1, and vectoring itself 180 degrees back on course. IIRC, that was how Antonio Elias told the story. By comparison, today's F9 separation was picture perfect.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Roy_H on 06/23/2017 11:08 pm
Forgive my shallow understanding of the engine, but what does the rod push against? Isn't the injector plate up there somewhere, or is there some kind of ring before the top of the nozzle it pushes against?

It pushes against the nozzle throat, which is the narrowest convergence of the nozzle. The injector is farther up inside the engine.
I guess given the working pressures and temperatures a gentle evenly placed straight-up push should not be an issue, right ?

In any case a very effective and elegant engineering solution! (IMHO)

That reminds me - are there any other multi-stage rockets using a similar up-the-nozzle-throat pushers during stage separation or is the Falcon 9 FT a on-of-a-kind in this regard ?

AFAIK this is unique to SpaceX. This is a very clever solution to a problem unique to SpaceX. Most separations just drift away, and because saving the booster is not an issue, the second stage can fire as soon as it is clear and they don't care if the first stage gets burnt or damaged. SpaceX wants a good distance before the second stage fires and they also want to get this distance very quickly so they can rotate the first stage for the boost back burn. The pusher imparts some momentum to the second stage while slowing down the first stage a little. I know this is small potatoes, but I wonder if that little extra acceleration to the second stage is enough to compensate for the extra fuel used to carry the mass of the pusher mechanism.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: starsilk on 06/23/2017 11:15 pm
It is the vibration that is the main issue AIUI. I'm sure enough money *could* solve the problem... ie moor another ASDS a mile off, and stream from that... but it's not worth the $$$.

Why use another ASDS - why not just have a trailing buoy with an antenna on it, or something?
Can't be that expensive.

because the ASDS is stationary while waiting for the landing. if it was 'under way' sailing at a fixed rate (as BO plan to do) it would work... but stationary, the buoy would just sit there, right next to the ASDS, or have to be deployed well before landing and hope it doesn't drift too close.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/23/2017 11:23 pm
It is the vibration that is the main issue AIUI. I'm sure enough money *could* solve the problem... ie moor another ASDS a mile off, and stream from that... but it's not worth the $$$.

Why use another ASDS - why not just have a trailing buoy with an antenna on it, or something?
Can't be that expensive.

because the ASDS is stationary while waiting for the landing. if it was 'under way' sailing at a fixed rate (as BO plan to do) it would work... but stationary, the buoy would just sit there, right next to the ASDS, or have to be deployed well before landing and hope it doesn't drift too close.

And it's not worth the cost of trying to solve. It merely interrupts a few seconds of the live feed, but the full event gets recorded on board for later recovery.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kaiser on 06/23/2017 11:36 pm
It is the vibration that is the main issue AIUI. I'm sure enough money *could* solve the problem... ie moor another ASDS a mile off, and stream from that... but it's not worth the $$$.

Why use another ASDS - why not just have a trailing buoy with an antenna on it, or something?
Can't be that expensive.

because the ASDS is stationary while waiting for the landing. if it was 'under way' sailing at a fixed rate (as BO plan to do) it would work... but stationary, the buoy would just sit there, right next to the ASDS, or have to be deployed well before landing and hope it doesn't drift too close.

And it's not worth the cost of trying to solve. It merely interrupts a few seconds of the live feed, but the full event gets recorded on board for later recovery.

Definitely recorded.  I can also almost guarantee that post live stream they start sending all the recorded data over the satcom link, and probably have all of the data back in the shop with 15 minutes.  It's just a couple of minutes of TM and video, not incredibly large to shove across a link like that.

Getting that data live versus a couple of minutes later isn't worth the cost of a secondary buoy, or support aircraft or whatever the solution would be.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 06/23/2017 11:39 pm
Remember that it's normal for the drone ship cameras to cut out just before touchdown because the satellite link is all that SpaceX can afford.

...because no amount of money can buy you a satellite uplink from the middle of the Atlantic ocean through an ionized exhaust plume as an 18-ton 165-ft tall rocket lands on top of you.
I'd disagree with that. You can build a buoy with your uplink antenna on it, and run a cable back to the ASDS. Get your antenna far enough from the rocket that it doesn't lose signal. It's certainly within the means of SpaceX, just not worth the expense or the recovery team's labor deploying and retrieving it all the time.
No reason to use a buoy or any other complex scheme.   Just use an omni-direction antenna to broadcast the video to the control ship 5 km away.   Then that ship can have a stable satellite link.  Entirely off the shelf, but still not worth the bother.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Nomadd on 06/23/2017 11:51 pm
Remember that it's normal for the drone ship cameras to cut out just before touchdown because the satellite link is all that SpaceX can afford.

...because no amount of money can buy you a satellite uplink from the middle of the Atlantic ocean through an ionized exhaust plume as an 18-ton 165-ft tall rocket lands on top of you.
They do have two antennas on opposite ends of the barge, right? If they're Intellian V110s, I might know what the issue is and spent six months solving it on my own boats. They cut out every time hard vibration hit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bob Shaw on 06/23/2017 11:56 pm
Geometrically Corrected landing image.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Aerospace Dilettante on 06/23/2017 11:57 pm
Gunter's page says that this sat had a launch mass of 3669kg, they've recovered boosters before that had carried heavier GTO sat without getting "extra toasty."  So what's the deal with this one?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bob Shaw on 06/23/2017 11:59 pm
It is the vibration that is the main issue AIUI. I'm sure enough money *could* solve the problem... ie moor another ASDS a mile off, and stream from that... but it's not worth the $$$.

Why use another ASDS - why not just have a trailing buoy with an antenna on it, or something?
Can't be that expensive.

because the ASDS is stationary while waiting for the landing. if it was 'under way' sailing at a fixed rate (as BO plan to do) it would work... but stationary, the buoy would just sit there, right next to the ASDS, or have to be deployed well before landing and hope it doesn't drift too close.

And it's not worth the cost of trying to solve. It merely interrupts a few seconds of the live feed, but the full event gets recorded on board for later recovery.

Actually, all you need is a buoy with a sea-anchor - it'll depart from the barge under the influence of currents quite quickly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bob Shaw on 06/24/2017 12:01 am
It is the vibration that is the main issue AIUI. I'm sure enough money *could* solve the problem... ie moor another ASDS a mile off, and stream from that... but it's not worth the $$$.

Why use another ASDS - why not just have a trailing buoy with an antenna on it, or something?
Can't be that expensive.

because the ASDS is stationary while waiting for the landing. if it was 'under way' sailing at a fixed rate (as BO plan to do) it would work... but stationary, the buoy would just sit there, right next to the ASDS, or have to be deployed well before landing and hope it doesn't drift too close.

And it's not worth the cost of trying to solve. It merely interrupts a few seconds of the live feed, but the full event gets recorded on board for later recovery.

Actually, all you need is a buoy with a sea-anchor - it'll depart from the barge under the influence of currents quite quickly.
Gunter's page says that this sat had a launch mass of 3669kg, they've recovered boosters before that had carried heavier GTO sat without getting "extra toasty."  So what's the deal with this one?

No boost-back, presumably...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/24/2017 12:06 am
Remember that it's normal for the drone ship cameras to cut out just before touchdown because the satellite link is all that SpaceX can afford.

...because no amount of money can buy you a satellite uplink from the middle of the Atlantic ocean through an ionized exhaust plume as an 18-ton 165-ft tall rocket lands on top of you.
They do have two antennas on opposite ends of the barge, right? If they're Intellian V110s, I might know what the issue is and spent six months solving it on my own boats. They cut out every time hard vibration hit.

You should get in touch with the SpaceX guy who posted about the vibration issue on Reddit.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34077.msg1499726#msg1499726
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Earendil on 06/24/2017 12:07 am
Maybe higher delta V?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: schaban on 06/24/2017 12:11 am
Gunter's page says that this sat had a launch mass of 3669kg, they've recovered boosters before that had carried heavier GTO sat without getting "extra toasty."  So what's the deal with this one?

I think SpaceX just knew they are not going to reuse it again so used it to test some boundaries.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Barrie on 06/24/2017 12:17 am
Geometrically Corrected landing image.

Not much clearance under those engines.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/24/2017 12:18 am
Geometrically Corrected landing image.

Not much clearance under those engines.

Time for Roomba limbo. How low can it go?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JimO on 06/24/2017 12:24 am
Any videos from central Africa of the post SECO2 fuel dump?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Barrie on 06/24/2017 12:24 am
Geometrically Corrected landing image.

Not much clearance under those engines.

Time for Roomba limbo. How low can it go?

I suspect not low enough for this one.  Elon tweeted that most of the crush core had been used up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Zed_Noir on 06/24/2017 12:33 am
I'm sure elon will want to send a flight proven booster to the Smithsonian one of these days.

You could do an entire SpaceX gallery of milestones, but the problem is where to put it.  The Udvar-Hazy is pretty full as it is.  Not sure where you would shoe-horn in an entire first stage.  Maybe they need an outdoor rocket garden?  Only problem then could be proximity to the Dulles runway.

I think SpaceX deserves a hanger like Shuttle. It should have the a Falcon 1, the remains of the satellite that crashed through their shed, the GH1, the SpaceX cowboy, the wheel of cheese, and the first retired block 5 booster. And some space for the future. Someone would have to pay for all that though. Elon?

Not a hangar. Maybe a tower with a lot of windows and interior platforms. A sort of immobile gantry tower for tourists.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ulm_atms on 06/24/2017 12:34 am
No reason to use a buoy or any other complex scheme.   Just use an omni-direction antenna to broadcast the video to the control ship 5 km away.   Then that ship can have a stable satellite link.  Entirely off the shelf, but still not worth the bother.

^^THIS

I have never understood why there was ever sat connections on the barge to begin with.  The barge will ALWAYS have the support ship since it cannot get out to sea by itself.  So why not just use a cheap omni or large angle sector antennas (90 or 120 degree) that point towards the support ship, and have the support ship do all the more delicate sat up/down links.  Can anyone explain why they would not want to do it this way?  Any drawbacks?  This is one of the things I never quite understood...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/24/2017 12:43 am
No reason to use a buoy or any other complex scheme.   Just use an omni-direction antenna to broadcast the video to the control ship 5 km away.   Then that ship can have a stable satellite link.  Entirely off the shelf, but still not worth the bother.

^^THIS

I have never understood why there was ever sat connections on the barge to begin with.  The barge will ALWAYS have the support ship since it cannot get out to sea by itself.  So why not just use a cheap omni or large angle sector antennas (90 or 120 degree) that point towards the support ship, and have the support ship do all the more delicate sat up/down links.  Can anyone explain why they would not want to do it this way?  Any drawbacks?  This is one of the things I never quite understood...

They want commercial VSATS on the ASDS anyway, so may as well use them for video uplink when it works. And remember when the ASDS broke loose and ran amok...support ships may not *always* be near. Good to know where your ASDS is at all times.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ulm_atms on 06/24/2017 12:56 am
They want commercial VSATS on the ASDS anyway, so may as well use them for video uplink when it works. And remember when the ASDS broke loose and ran amok...support ships may not *always* be near. Good to know where your ASDS is at all times.

From the bolded...That's the part I never understood why.  What does the sat connection on the ASDS help/do that could not be done with an omni to support ship connection to allow a more stable sat uplink?

And as far as the run amok...lol I forgot about that...but wouldn't a simple AIS transponder(which i thought it had) do the same ?

This is the last I'll ask in this thread as this doesn't actually have anything to do with this mission.  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 06/24/2017 01:09 am
They want commercial VSATS on the ASDS anyway, so may as well use them for video uplink when it works. And remember when the ASDS broke loose and ran amok...support ships may not *always* be near. Good to know where your ASDS is at all times.

From the bolded...That's the part I never understood why.  What does the sat connection on the ASDS help/do that could not be done with an omni to support ship connection to allow a more stable sat uplink?

And as far as the run amok...lol I forgot about that...but wouldn't a simple AIS transponder(which i thought it had) do the same ?

This is the last I'll ask in this thread as this doesn't actually have anything to do with this mission.  :D

Adding another link from ASDS to support ship to satellite would be yet one more complication. And they may not have anticipated the vibration-induced loss of signal issue in the original design. The commercial VSATs do advertise some vibration tolerance.

So they probably did a KISS design, keep it simple, VSATs on the ASDS linking directly to the satellites. Then when the vibration caused by the rocket acoustics overwhelmed the VSAT damping capability,  well, no big deal. You just get the video/data 30 seconds later.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: TripD on 06/24/2017 01:40 am
I have never understood why there was ever sat connections on the barge to begin with.  The barge will ALWAYS have the support ship since it cannot get out to sea by itself.  So why not just use a cheap omni or large angle sector antennas (90 or 120 degree) that point towards the support ship, and have the support ship do all the more delicate sat up/down links.  Can anyone explain why they would not want to do it this way?  Any drawbacks?  This is one of the things I never quite understood...

I can only speak for myself.  But every time I see the video cut out and then suddenly see the booster sitting on the deck makes be chuckle that the conspiracy theorists are going ballistic right then.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 06/24/2017 01:41 am
I hope they have a drone video of this landing.

A 'normal' single engine landing generates about twice the weight of the rocket, so net 1G up.  Since the rocket is going about 300 m/s, it needs to start 4 km up and brake for 30 seconds.

A true three engine landing would generate 6x the weight, so 5G up.  It would start at 900 meters(!),  only 13x the height of the rocket itself (and roughly the height of the tallest skyscrapers) and scream to a stop in 6 seconds.

The real landing is probably 1-3-1 or 3-1, and probably not quite so extreme.  But it should be sporty indeed.

And all of this to save 12 engine-seconds, or about 1.3 more seconds of first stage boost.   Rockets are *really* low margin operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: georgegassaway on 06/24/2017 06:52 am
And all of this to save 12 engine-seconds, or about 1.3 more seconds of first stage boost.

Presuming that 12 seconds engine-seconds is a good number, since the single engine landing usually burns for about 30 seconds, that would reduce the fuel needed by about  40%.

Really is interesting to think about. The fuel saved is pretty much whatever would be burned for the Falcon booster to do a true "hover" for 12 seconds (or however many seconds if 12 is not correct).  And yes, I know, the center Merlin can't throttle down low enough to hover, and they would not do a hover even if it could. This is a theoretical example for those who may have trouble grasping gravity loss (or gravity drag) and therefore why a 3-engine landing requires less fuel than a single engine landing (but is riskier).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Geron on 06/24/2017 07:04 am
The new grid fins are 4*5 feet with claw like features, new metal and 100% reusable!! They are being placed in service within the next few flights, should be super cool to watch:)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 06/24/2017 08:25 am
The new grid fins are 4*5 feet with claw like features, new metal and 100% reusable!! They are being placed in service within the next few flights, should be super cool to watch:)

I thought that was the size of the old fins. The new fins will be bigger than that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gospacex on 06/24/2017 08:37 am
I have never understood why there was ever sat connections on the barge to begin with.  The barge will ALWAYS have the support ship since it cannot get out to sea by itself.  So why not just use a cheap omni or large angle sector antennas (90 or 120 degree) that point towards the support ship, and have the support ship do all the more delicate sat up/down links.  Can anyone explain why they would not want to do it this way?  Any drawbacks?  This is one of the things I never quite understood...

I can only speak for myself.  But every time I see the video cut out and then suddenly see the booster sitting on the deck makes be chuckle that the conspiracy theorists are going ballistic right then.  :)

New "SpaceX is fake" videos stopped appearing on UT.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Dante80 on 06/24/2017 09:45 am
42801/2017-038A: 212 x 65512 km x 24.06 deg.
42802/2017-038B: 210 x 65641 km x 23.91 deg.

Understanding that the payload mass for this one was 3,669kg, what would be the GTO-1800 theoretical equivalent? Does SES-10 still hold the equivalent mass record for GTO-1800 re-usable performance?

Was this a burn to depletion campaign? Given what was said by Elon, was this the most difficult (speed, distance) S1 recovery attempt or does SES-9 still hold the record for that?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: guckyfan on 06/24/2017 10:18 am
Perigee looks low enough. The first :-[  second stage should decay quickly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 06/24/2017 10:32 am
Perigee looks low enough. The first stage should decay quickly.

Umm, first stage decayed in about 10 minutes and then did everything it could to avoid smacking into the ocean.  Second stage however will hopefully be returning in the not too distant future.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 06/24/2017 11:38 am
42801/2017-038A: 212 x 65512 km x 24.06 deg.
42802/2017-038B: 210 x 65641 km x 23.91 deg.

Understanding that the payload mass for this one was 3,669kg, what would be the GTO-1800 theoretical equivalent? Does SES-10 still hold the equivalent mass record for GTO-1800 re-usable performance?

Was this a burn to depletion campaign? Given what was said by Elon, was this the most difficult (speed, distance) S1 recovery attempt or does SES-9 still hold the record for that?
Here are my guesses about this:
To go from a 180x180x28o orbit to the one observed takes about 2830 m/s, and results in a GEO-1590 orbit.   A minimal GTO (roughly GEO-1800), like SES-10, takes about 2462 m/s.   So F9 supplied about 370 more m/s to BulgariaSat.

Using nominal assumptions (ISP=348, second stage empy mass 4.5t, fuel=111.5t) then this should be the same difficulty as putting 4.7t into a GEO-1800.   So to me, this seems like they should have had more reserves than SES-10, not less.

Some possible explanations are (a) this was a targeted insertion, whereas SES-10 was a burn to depletion, or (b) they were not planning to three-use this booster anyway, and so decided to try a minimal landing and give all margin to the payload, or (c) this contract very specifically called for a GEO-1600 or better, and after margins for this were included, little was left for landing.

Elon stated this was the most difficult re-entry try yet.  This seems backed up by the red-hot grid fins, and the 3 engine landing burn.  But it looks like this was a choice, for perhaps one of the reasons above, and not dictated by absolute performance.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ads on 06/24/2017 12:44 pm
When is footage of the landing likely to be available?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 06/24/2017 01:53 pm
When is footage of the landing likely to be available?
It usually gets posted shortly after the ASDS returns to port.  And that takes a couple days (you can follow its progress in one of the ASDS threads).

EDIT: and yes, they *could* upload the video from the boat, or send a fast ship to courier it back, or even take it off the ASDS as soon as it's close enough to transfer crew, instead of waiting until the ASDS is tied up and berthed. Lots of ways they could get the footage faster. But that doesn't seem to be what happens, or if it does it doesn't seem to impact the timing of the public posting.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Machdiamond on 06/24/2017 02:06 pm
Can't wait for that video. I have a hunch it is going to be badass.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 06/24/2017 07:36 pm
Surprising are they not suitable for any more than one reuse?
Wrong takeaway.
This is a Block III stack, this was a launch right at the edge of the recoverable performance for such a stack.
If SpaceX could ONLY do launches that left the booster with enough performance margin, they could do a longer re-entry burn and save 1 or 2 extra seconds of fuel for the landing and recover the booster just fine.
At the same time, if this were a full Block V booster, it could deliver the same payload to orbit and have enough fuel reserves to recovery this without extra toastiness.

The other way to look at it is existing Block III boosters should be either expended (customer gets more performance, so it pays more for a booster that has limited future value, perhaps customer pays the price for a regular new booster with reuse) or flown to the limit like this (there's probably lots to be learned from this recovered booster, and even if the booster can't be refurbed as is, they perhaps can refurb and requalify the really expensive part of the booster = the engines).

either way, this is what I expect for Block III reflights. Re-re-flights likely will wait until full Block IV or full Block V stacks.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rickl on 06/24/2017 07:49 pm
I'd like to see them put Stage 1 telemetry on the left side of the screen and Stage 2 telemetry on the right.  During first stage flight they would be identical, then diverge after first stage separation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 06/24/2017 08:12 pm
I'd like to see them put Stage 1 telemetry on the left side of the screen and Stage 2 telemetry on the right.  During first stage flight they would be identical, then diverge after first stage separation.

I agree, although I've really enjoyed the recent first stage telemetry.  Especially noting when the atmosphere is thick enough to start decreasing the speed of the booster.

The first FH launch could have a lot going on.  2 RTLS feeds, 1 ASDS and the US.  That would be footage and telemetry porn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rickl on 06/24/2017 09:46 pm
The first FH launch could have a lot going on.  2 RTLS feeds, 1 ASDS and the US.  That would be footage and telemetry porn.


We're gonna need a bigger screen!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: TripD on 06/25/2017 03:37 am
The first FH launch could have a lot going on.  2 RTLS feeds, 1 ASDS and the US.  That would be footage and telemetry porn.


We're gonna need a bigger screen!

Retro man, retro!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: manoweb on 06/27/2017 06:15 am
Quote
I'd disagree with that. You can build a buoy with your uplink antenna on it, and run a cable back to the ASDS. Get your antenna far enough from the rocket that it doesn't lose signal. It's certainly within the means of SpaceX, just not worth the expense or the recovery team's labor deploying and retrieving it all the time.

Exactly. Or, forget the cable, some radio that uses a "not so directional" antenna.
Also, RP1 + LOX produces ionized gas - is this true?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RDMM2081 on 06/27/2017 06:31 am
Quote
I'd disagree with that. You can build a buoy with your uplink antenna on it, and run a cable back to the ASDS. Get your antenna far enough from the rocket that it doesn't lose signal. It's certainly within the means of SpaceX, just not worth the expense or the recovery team's labor deploying and retrieving it all the time.

Exactly. Or, forget the cable, some radio that uses a "not so directional" antenna.
Also, RP1 + LOX produces ionized gas - is this true?
I'm going to chime in and say I don't think the "antenna on a buoy on a cable" scheme is going to work either.  I don't see any way that a <2m buoy (how big are buoys anyway?) in waves (no thrusters) moves any _less_ than a barge being impinged by rocket exhaust.  I'm sure there is a way for the "remote antenna" concept to work, but it's probably not quite as simple as that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kaputnik on 06/27/2017 08:34 am
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

It seems very likely that SpaceX could easily solve the video dropout problem, if they thought it was actually a problem.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/27/2017 08:37 am
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JamesH65 on 06/27/2017 09:55 am
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

It seems very likely that SpaceX could easily solve the video dropout problem, if they thought it was actually a problem.

If they could fix it really easily, don't you think they would have already done it? They already spend quite a few $ getting that feed to where it is, even though it's really only of use to us, the viewers, if it really was an easy fix, it would be cheap, and probably already done.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/27/2017 10:11 am
They could build one of these, I hear they are quite stable in heavy seas.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP_FLIP
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 06/27/2017 01:23 pm
Also, RP1 + LOX produces ionized gas - is this true?

High temperature + any gas = plasma (ionized gas)

"Electrons are free, the fourth state of matter, not solid, liquid, or gas" ... to quote an excellent song.

The RP1 and LOX have little to do with it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Nomadd on 06/27/2017 03:25 pm
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...
Fishing boats move a helluva a lot more than that barge does. Plume impingement should be handled by having two dishes on opposite ends of the barge and picking a satellite that's not too vertical, or two different sats. I'm not sure what arrangements SpaceX has, but ships almost always have a few different satellites available because the dishes are hardly ever without an obstruction in some direction. You can program in obstructions like masts or superstructures and the controller will know not to try and acquire a blocked sat. If they know what direction the rocket will come in from, they could just program it and the plume as obstructions, or just manually pick a sat that won't be blocked.
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

It seems very likely that SpaceX could easily solve the video dropout problem, if they thought it was actually a problem.

If they could fix it really easily, don't you think they would have already done it? They already spend quite a few $ getting that feed to where it is, even though it's really only of use to us, the viewers, if it really was an easy fix, it would be cheap, and probably already done.
Those big Ku band dishes pretty much stay on target by being perfectly balanced. Tiny stepper motors keep them centered, but even unpowered, the dish stays stays pointing the same way for a while as the boat moves around.
 I'm still trying to find out if the vibration problem is through the mount or causes trouble directly through the dome.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 06/27/2017 03:50 pm

AFAIK this is unique to SpaceX. This is a very clever solution to a problem unique to SpaceX. Most separations just drift away, and because saving the booster is not an issue, the second stage can fire as soon as it is clear and they don't care if the first stage gets burnt or damaged. SpaceX wants a good distance before the second stage fires and they also want to get this distance very quickly so they can rotate the first stage for the boost back burn. The pusher imparts some momentum to the second stage while slowing down the first stage a little. I know this is small potatoes, but I wonder if that little extra acceleration to the second stage is enough to compensate for the extra fuel used to carry the mass of the pusher mechanism.

Wrong takeaway and not a unique problem to SpaceX. The longer pusher rod is to ensure clearance of the MVac engine bell during staging and not for extra impulse for booster separation.  The push rod makes sure that the engine/second stage stays centered while clearing the interstage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: manoweb on 06/27/2017 06:04 pm
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...

No wait, you did not understand. The barge would have a non- or loosely directional antenna to transmit to a nerby boat, and that would have a satellite link. However, there is probably a simple explanation they are not doing it, and it is NOT that they cannot engineer one.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jcc on 06/28/2017 12:07 am
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...

No wait, you did not understand. The barge would have a non- or loosely directional antenna to transmit to a nerby boat, and that would have a satellite link. However, there is probably a simple explanation they are not doing it, and it is NOT that they cannot engineer one.

That explanation is that is not important enough a priority. They will have full quality video at multiple angles from the recordings. Telemetry tells them if the stage landed intact in near real time. There is no operational reason why they need perfect realtime video. Even for us spectators it adds to the drama if it cuts off briefly, and we anticipate the recordings like kids on Christmas Eve. Great fun!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 06/28/2017 05:13 am



 Those big Ku band dishes pretty much stay on target by being perfectly balanced. Tiny stepper motors keep them centered, but even unpowered, the dish stays stays pointing the same way for a while as the boat moves around.
 I'm still trying to find out if the vibration problem is through the mount or causes trouble directly through the dome.

I suspect the problem is not the low frequency heaving, but rather the high frequency high amplitude components: it is unusual for these sorts of vibrations to be coupled into the tracker, since usually a large boat is a quite good low-pass filter.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 06/28/2017 12:11 pm
Gimballed self levelling platforms are totally standard OTS equipment. That's how fishing boats can pick up Sky TV.

Then again, fishing boats usually rock slowly in the waves and their antennas don't have to cope with plume impingement from a rocket engine and resulting thrashing and vibrations at tens to hundreds of Hz frequency...

No wait, you did not understand. The barge would have a non- or loosely directional antenna to transmit to a nerby boat, and that would have a satellite link. However, there is probably a simple explanation they are not doing it, and it is NOT that they cannot engineer one.

That explanation is that is not important enough a priority. They will have full quality video at multiple angles from the recordings. Telemetry tells them if the stage landed intact in near real time. There is no operational reason why they need perfect realtime video. Even for us spectators it adds to the drama if it cuts off briefly, and we anticipate the recordings like kids on Christmas Eve. Great fun!

How are they getting live telemetry at landing? Does the booster have a satcom link? Or are the support ships relaying it?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Nomadd on 06/28/2017 03:47 pm


How are they getting live telemetry at landing? Does the booster have a satcom link? Or are the support ships relaying it?
Telemetry is mostly transmitted to ground stations. The only satcom I know of is Iridium radios, which can do 128k and would be good for selected results if not raw data. But it looks like Iridium might only be for GPS data.
 Maybe Iridium will give them free bandwidth once the new system is up.
 This is from the F9 user's guide.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/29/2017 02:17 am
Reddit user FellowHumanBean (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6ewgm7/rspacex_discusses_june_2017_33/djikyln/) noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 06/29/2017 03:37 pm
Have we seen the final orbit yet? I'm still trying to figure out why this was a tough landing. It was a very light bird for GTO so unless it went to a really high energy orbit then the hard reentry was purposeful testing. Even so, seems like that upper stage probably had a lot of energy left.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 06/29/2017 03:45 pm
Have we seen the final orbit yet? I'm still trying to figure out why this was a tough landing. It was a very light bird for GTO so unless it went to a really high energy orbit then the hard reentry was purposeful testing. Even so, seems like that upper stage probably had a lot of energy left.

Yes. It was over 60 000km apogee, very super-synch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: clegg78 on 06/29/2017 03:51 pm
Edit - sorry wrong rocket ;)   Damn spaceX and their rapid cadence its easy to get the landings mixed up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: joncz on 06/29/2017 07:19 pm
Reddit user FellowHumanBean (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6ewgm7/rspacex_discusses_june_2017_33/djikyln/) noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.

I think FellowHumanBean is reading backward and without context.

LLS 17-100, issued in February, required SpaceX to carry $160M in liability insurance
LLS 17-101, issued in March, requires SpaceX to carry $68M liability insurance for BulgariaSat-1 and $30M for subsequent launches.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/29/2017 07:42 pm
Reddit user FellowHumanBean (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6ewgm7/rspacex_discusses_june_2017_33/djikyln/) noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.

I think FellowHumanBean is reading backward and without context.

LLS 17-100, issued in February, required SpaceX to carry $160M in liability insurance
LLS 17-101, issued in March, requires SpaceX to carry $68M liability insurance for BulgariaSat-1 and $30M for subsequent launches.

LLS 17-100 and LLS 17-101 are licenses for different things.  LLS 17-101 (GTO launches) was issued in March, and then updated in June to specifically mention a different insurance rate for  Bulgariasat.  Other payloads already launched under LLS 17-101 before that update.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 06/30/2017 05:36 pm
For those of you that have not seen it, here are some pictures showing how far this flight pushed the aluminum grid fins... Very close to failure: (Elon was not kidding)   https://imgur.com/a/WeILL
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris_Pi on 06/30/2017 07:12 pm
Looks like they've figured out just what the aluminum fins will put up with. And almost found out if the stage can tolerate losing a fin midflight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 06/30/2017 07:58 pm
Looks like they've figured out just what the aluminum fins will put up with. And almost found out if the stage can tolerate losing a fin midflight.
And really demonstrated why they needed to transition to the Titanium ones which still look brand new after flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 06/30/2017 09:11 pm
Looks like they've figured out just what the aluminum fins will put up with. And almost found out if the stage can tolerate losing a fin midflight.
And really demonstrated why they needed to transition to the Titanium ones which still look brand new after flight.

They look brand new after Iridium flights. The proof will be how well they handle a super-synchronous mission profile such as BulgariaSat. I have little doubt they'll hold up a lot better; but I do have doubts they will be infinitely reusable.

Time of course will tell.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 07/01/2017 06:57 am
Combining the fin damage with the landing gear collapse, I think that we can safety say that a BulgariaSat-1-like super-synchronous mission profile represents the furthest you can push the block-3 core. Whether the titanium-finned block-4s can manage better is a question to be answered but not one I would feel confident telling Mr Musk to try too quickly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/01/2017 06:57 am
Reddit user FellowHumanBean (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6ewgm7/rspacex_discusses_june_2017_33/djikyln/) noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.

That's a great spot! Not obvious to me why the change. Wasn't SES-10, i.e. first booster re-use, under the original version of this licence? So why the change for BulgariaSat?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: su27k on 07/01/2017 07:33 am
Reddit user FellowHumanBean (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6ewgm7/rspacex_discusses_june_2017_33/djikyln/) noticed an amendment to the FCC launch license for Bulgariasat:
Quote
SpaceX BulgariaSat liability insurance
I missed this at the time, but on June 16, the FAA modified SpaceX's liability insurance see LLS 17-101 for the BulgariaSat mission to $68MM, while other missions covered by the same license remain at $30MM.

That's a great spot! Not obvious to me why the change. Wasn't SES-10, i.e. first booster re-use, under the original version of this licence? So why the change for BulgariaSat?

I think BulgariaSat skipped McGregor testing? It also had a longer than usual static fire.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 07/01/2017 06:13 pm
I think BulgariaSat skipped McGregor testing? It also had a longer than usual static fire.
Refurbishments are being done 100% at the CAPE. The booster never leaves back to McGregor or Hawthorne.
Every information available says the first time the booster engine fires again is at the static fire.

The very first refurb might have been different, but apparently it was the exception.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 07/01/2017 06:28 pm
I think BulgariaSat skipped McGregor testing? It also had a longer than usual static fire.
The very first refurb might have been different, but apparently it was the exception.

Yep, CRS-8 went back to McGregor for a full duration static fire (I don't know if it went all the way to Hawethorne though).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/01/2017 06:49 pm
I think BulgariaSat skipped McGregor testing? It also had a longer than usual static fire.
Refurbishments are being done 100% at the CAPE. The booster never leaves back to McGregor or Hawthorne.
Every information available says the first time the booster engine fires again is at the static fire.

The very first refurb might have been different, but apparently it was the exception.
So the answer is "yes"?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: billh on 07/02/2017 10:38 pm
After seeing the condition of the grid fins I went back and reviewed the video coverage. If the on-screen telemetry is accurate, when the first stage for BulgariaSat-1 started its entry burn its velocity was 8500 km/h. Even at the end of the burn it was still 6600 km/h. Compare that to CRS-11 (which also did a boostback burn): 4500 km/h at the start of the entry burn and 3500 km/h at the end. That's a whale of a big difference in kinetic energy that has to be dissipated by drag forces. It's really amazing this stage survived at all!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: craiglv2 on 07/03/2017 02:59 pm
Still eagerly awaiting release of the landing video..
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Paul_G on 07/03/2017 04:13 pm
Still eagerly awaiting release of the landing video..

I think SpaceX want to focus on mission success for Intelsat before they show off their own 'wild' stuff. Its noticeable on the last few webcasts that they are giving their launch customers air time, which is nice for us to understand what the primary missions are all about.

Paul
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mlow on 07/04/2017 06:51 pm
Still eagerly awaiting release of the landing video..

I think SpaceX want to focus on mission success for Intelsat before they show off their own 'wild' stuff. Its noticeable on the last few webcasts that they are giving their launch customers air time, which is nice for us to understand what the primary missions are all about.

Paul

Have we had official release of some of the sporty landings? Thaicom landing for instance was the other sporty landing that comes to mind.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 07/04/2017 07:26 pm
Still eagerly awaiting release of the landing video..

I think SpaceX want to focus on mission success for Intelsat before they show off their own 'wild' stuff. Its noticeable on the last few webcasts that they are giving their launch customers air time, which is nice for us to understand what the primary missions are all about.

Paul

Have we had official release of some of the sporty landings? Thaicom landing for instance was the other sporty landing that comes to mind.

We sort of got landing footage for Thaicom 8. Not what most here would prefer, but better than nothing.

https://youtu.be/4jEz03Z8azc
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bernadov on 07/05/2017 05:13 am
Any news on a landing video of the 1029.2. booster?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cferreir on 08/01/2017 08:08 pm
Not letting this die until we get a video or story from SpaceX. Come on...we learn from our failures! We learn more from being open.........That is what we love from SpaceX!!! Lets see that awesome video!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tvg98 on 08/01/2017 08:30 pm
Not letting this die until we get a video or story from SpaceX. Come on...we learn from our failures! We learn more from being open.........That is what we love from SpaceX!!! Lets see that awesome video!

Don't get your hopes up. Multiple people who claim to know employees who have seen the video have said it is highly unlikely people like you or I will get to see it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JebK on 08/01/2017 08:38 pm
If we don't see it (and if they haven't released it yet they're likely not going to) it won't be the first time they haven't released landing video.  Sure they showed initial failures, but they only released video of an attempt if it showed progress from a previous one, if this looks iffy it would look like a step backward even though the landing was successful.  Unfortunately ts all about Corporate PR, not "look how cool this is fellow rocket nerds!".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 08/01/2017 09:24 pm
We'll probably see each excerpt in Elon's September lecture.  Gwynne also likes to compile summary videos for her talks.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Notleslie on 10/28/2017 09:51 am
Anyone have any idea what just happened to the R/B from this launch? Did they perform a de-orbit manoever???


1 42802U 17038B   17293.72551647  .00027554  34224-5  23039-2 0  9996
2 42802  24.5026  10.7656 8296019 214.1455  24.5398  1.15434098  1332
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17299.50658123  .00002909 -18328-4  00000+0 0  9999
2 42802  24.1857   6.6360 2957658 221.3868 298.2410  9.85103635  1432
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gwiz on 10/28/2017 10:51 am
With its very eccentric orbit and low perigee, it's vulnerable to combinations of lunar/solar gravity perturbations and atmospheric variations that can give a significant aerobraking effect.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: saliva_sweet on 10/28/2017 11:09 am
Anyone have any idea what just happened to the R/B from this launch? Did they perform a de-orbit manoever???


1 42802U 17038B   17293.72551647  .00027554  34224-5  23039-2 0  9996
2 42802  24.5026  10.7656 8296019 214.1455  24.5398  1.15434098  1332
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17298.50320531 -.00000191  22902-6  00000+0 0  9993
2 42802  24.2449   8.5033 5926106 217.8158 334.7218  4.30932446  1399
1 42802U 17038B   17299.50658123  .00002909 -18328-4  00000+0 0  9999
2 42802  24.1857   6.6360 2957658 221.3868 298.2410  9.85103635  1432

Why do all the TLEs have the same set number?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Notleslie on 10/28/2017 11:10 am
I got them from Space-track.org
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: saliva_sweet on 10/28/2017 11:17 am
I guess it's the same observation being refined over time. All except the last TLE are bugged. But I'm not sure.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Raul on 10/28/2017 11:09 pm
Anyone have any idea what just happened to the R/B from this launch? Did they perform a de-orbit manoever???
No de-orbit maneuver, this is standard gradual deceleration of the second stage before reentry and decay from GTO due to drag in upper atmosphere at perigee 154, 120 and 95 km.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 10/29/2017 03:40 am
Can someone translate those TLEs into date, apogee, and prrigee?
The decay of second stages left in GTO orbits has been of interest for a long time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Raul on 10/29/2017 08:17 am
Can someone translate those TLEs into date, apogee, and prrigee?
Fri Oct 20 2017 17:24:44 GMT      154/63757km
Wed Oct 25 2017 12:04:36 GMT   120/19026km
Thu Oct 26 2017 12:09:28 GMT   95/5533km   
Fri Oct 27 2017                     Decayed
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: saliva_sweet on 10/29/2017 09:07 am
Fri Oct 20 2017 17:24:44 GMT      154/63757km
Wed Oct 25 2017 12:04:36 GMT   120/19026km
Thu Oct 26 2017 12:09:28 GMT   95/5533km   
Fri Oct 27 2017                     Decayed

So they were separate TLEs. Can you explain why they had the same set number - 999 (first three digits of the last element of line 1)? I thought these were supposed to be incremented each time a new TLE set was created.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Notleslie on 10/29/2017 09:08 am
Fri Oct 20 2017 17:24:44 GMT      154/63757km
Wed Oct 25 2017 12:04:36 GMT   120/19026km
Thu Oct 26 2017 12:09:28 GMT   95/5533km   
Fri Oct 27 2017                     Decayed

So they were separate TLEs. Can you explain why they had the same set number - 999 (first three digits of the last element of line 1)? I thought these were supposed to be incremented each time a new TLE set was created.

They are but I got them from Space-track.org where they are all 999 for some reason
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: saliva_sweet on 10/29/2017 09:20 am
They are but I got them from Space-track.org where they are all 999 for some reason

Space-track sets all set numbers in all TLEs for all objects to 999?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Notleslie on 10/29/2017 09:22 am
They are but I got them from Space-track.org where they are all 999 for some reason

Space-track sets all set numbers in all TLEs for all objects to 999?

On my account they seem too, I assumed it was the same for everyone.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 10/31/2017 03:44 pm
Can someone translate those TLEs into date, apogee, and prrigee?
Fri Oct 20 2017 17:24:44 GMT      154/63757km
Wed Oct 25 2017 12:04:36 GMT   120/19026km
Thu Oct 26 2017 12:09:28 GMT   95/5533km   
Fri Oct 27 2017                     Decayed
Adding in the initial orbital elements from the Update thread and plotting:
It looks like the second stage hit a brick wall in late October.
Possibly had the perigee tidally pulled lower and it snowballed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 10/31/2017 05:51 pm
Can someone translate those TLEs into date, apogee, and prrigee?
Fri Oct 20 2017 17:24:44 GMT      154/63757km
Wed Oct 25 2017 12:04:36 GMT   120/19026km
Thu Oct 26 2017 12:09:28 GMT   95/5533km   
Fri Oct 27 2017                     Decayed
Adding in the initial orbital elements from the Update thread and plotting:
It looks like the second stage hit a brick wall in late October.
Possibly had the perigee tidally pulled lower and it snowballed.
That brick wall is known as Earth's atmosphere.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 10/31/2017 06:38 pm
There isn't a step change in density, it's more gradual (leading to expectations of a less steep decay curve) but the effect might as well be a brick wall I guess?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 10/31/2017 06:56 pm
Can someone translate those TLEs into date, apogee, and prrigee?
Fri Oct 20 2017 17:24:44 GMT      154/63757km
Wed Oct 25 2017 12:04:36 GMT   120/19026km
Thu Oct 26 2017 12:09:28 GMT   95/5533km   
Fri Oct 27 2017                     Decayed
Adding in the initial orbital elements from the Update thread and plotting:
It looks like the second stage hit a brick wall in late October.
Possibly had the perigee tidally pulled lower and it snowballed.
That brick wall is known as Earth's atmosphere.

As Lar said, the atmosphere is not a brick wall. 
Look at something like the orbital decay of Tiangong 1. (http://www.heavens-above.com/TiangongHeight.aspx?lat=40.047&lng=-105.2753&loc=80304&alt=1667&tz=MST)  It spent all of October in the atmosphere below 310 km without falling out of the sky. The decay does, however, get steeper all the time.
The Bulgariasat second stage spent four months dipping below 200 km on each orbit. 
Then something passed a threshold, either a tipping point in atmospheric density or an external event, like a gravitational tug  from the Moon. 

A salient question is what was that event, and what does it say about the decay of other second stages.  But that's for another thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 10/31/2017 07:46 pm
Can someone translate those TLEs into date, apogee, and prrigee?
Fri Oct 20 2017 17:24:44 GMT      154/63757km
Wed Oct 25 2017 12:04:36 GMT   120/19026km
Thu Oct 26 2017 12:09:28 GMT   95/5533km   
Fri Oct 27 2017                     Decayed
Adding in the initial orbital elements from the Update thread and plotting:
It looks like the second stage hit a brick wall in late October.
Possibly had the perigee tidally pulled lower and it snowballed.
That brick wall is known as Earth's atmosphere.

As Lar said, the atmosphere is not a brick wall. 
Look at something like the orbital decay of Tiangong 1. (http://www.heavens-above.com/TiangongHeight.aspx?lat=40.047&lng=-105.2753&loc=80304&alt=1667&tz=MST)  It spent all of October in the atmosphere below 310 km without falling out of the sky. The decay does, however, get steeper all the time.
The Bulgariasat second stage spent four months dipping below 200 km on each orbit. 
Then something passed a threshold, either a tipping point in atmospheric density or an external event, like a gravitational tug  from the Moon. 

A salient question is what was that event, and what does it say about the decay of other second stages.  But that's for another thread.

A circular LEO orbital decay is going to be a lot more gradual and predictable.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 10/31/2017 07:54 pm
The Bulgariasat second stage spent four months dipping below 200 km on each orbit. 
Then something passed a threshold, either a tipping point in atmospheric density or an external event, like a gravitational tug  from the Moon. 

A salient question is what was that event, and what does it say about the decay of other second stages.  But that's for another thread.

There are several exponentially compounding effects here. Air density and thus drag at 95 km is some 100x higher than at 154 km. Also, as each perigee pass slows the stage, the apogee drops significantly - and since most of the orbit time is around apogee, the next perigee pass happens much sooner.

154/63757km has a period of 20.7 hours
120/19026km has a period of 5.8 hours
95/5533km has a period of 2.48 hours

So even though that last orbit doesn't look substantially lower, it's decaying ~1000x faster than the highest orbit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 10/31/2017 09:22 pm
All that is known.
The atmosphere doubles in density roughly every 20 km
Lowering the perigee reduces the orbital period resulting in more  passes through the top of atmosphere per day.
The emptied second stage is particularly light and large, almost a giant aluminum balloon.
Nevertheless, the terminal decay is rather dramatic.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 11/01/2017 01:18 am
All that is known.
The atmosphere doubles in density roughly every 20 km
Lowering the perigee reduces the orbital period resulting in more  passes through the top of atmosphere per day.
The emptied second stage is particularly light and large, almost a giant aluminum balloon.
Nevertheless, the terminal decay is rather dramatic.
Density doubling every 20 km is not accurate in this perigee range. Around 120 km there is a "knee" in the curve and density increases more than 100-fold in just 25 km. This makes decay extremely sensitive to perigee altitude.

The plots below model air density from 95 to 155 km; one is on a log scale, the other the same data on a linear scale:
Data from: https://omniweb.gsfc.nasa.gov/vitmo/msis_vitmo.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 11/01/2017 01:42 am
Neat data
The log-linear assymptotes show that above 130 km the doubling height is ~13 km
Below 110 km it's only ~3 km
That is a lot like a brick wall.

Doubling every 20 km is a decent approximation above 300 km
Near the ground, it doubles around 20 kft or 6 km.
SO nonlinear.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Notleslie on 11/02/2017 05:33 am
Theres a new elset on Space-track.org for it... what the heck is going on with their elsets??


1 42802U 17038B   17305.79196749 +.99999999 -28699-4 +93816-8 0  9999
2 42802 024.1564 357.8001 2618557 238.2422 285.5175 10.75890139002054

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: shooter6947 on 11/02/2017 08:50 pm
The atmosphere doubles in density roughly every 20 km
Actually the pressure increases by a factor of e=2.81828 every 10 km or so -- Earths' scale height.  Density increases commensurately for same temperature, but varies as PV=nRT otherwise.  So much steeper than you suggest -- density goes up more like a factor of 8 for every 20 km.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/03/2017 08:18 am
Quote
Falcon 9 stage 2 from the Bulgariasat-1 launch reentered at 1813 UTC Oct 31 over Parana, Brazil. Earlier estimate of Oct 27 decay was wrong

https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/926314875227385856 (https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/926314875227385856)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 01/11/2021 05:32 pm
https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/1348584950518439937
Quote
.@EximBankUS prepares possible seizure of Bulgaria Sat 1 satellite in wake of non-payment of $150.5M loan.
@MaxZayakov @BulsatcomTV. http://bit.ly/2Lkya3f
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : BulgariaSat-1 : June 23, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/11/2021 05:48 pm
https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/1348584950518439937
Quote
.@EximBankUS prepares possible seizure of Bulgaria Sat 1 satellite in wake of non-payment of $150.5M loan.
@MaxZayakov @BulsatcomTV. http://bit.ly/2Lkya3f
That's sad to see.