Author Topic: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread  (Read 369243 times)

Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #120 on: 12/24/2013 01:04 pm »
This is Lockheed Martin artwork of the proposed Mars One lander, which would be closely based upon the Phoenix and InSight landers. This is not a science mission (and I do not expect it to happen), but I include it here to show that there are ideas for other landers.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #121 on: 12/30/2013 12:12 pm »
May I ask the purpose of what looks like a roll out solar panel is? Does it double as a ramp, or is it just a test of a new solar format?
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #122 on: 12/30/2013 12:19 pm »
May I ask the purpose of what looks like a roll out solar panel is? Does it double as a ramp, or is it just a test of a new solar format?

Test of new solar technology.

I don't want to turn this into a Mars One discussion, but this lander does look like a logical choice considering their goals--test technology required prior to human operations. I don't know if the specific technologies make sense, but there is logic to trying out the stuff that you are going to need a few years later.

None of this is going to happen, however.

Offline plutogno

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #123 on: 12/30/2013 08:01 pm »
the French space agency CNES has just published this cool video (mostly in French) on their seismometer for InSight

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #124 on: 12/30/2013 10:29 pm »
The roll-out solar panel makes a lot of sense. You can pack a LOT of power production in a small space and mass. And it's fairly scalable, too. Most of the mass of a solar panel when you scale up ends up being stuff like structure. The cells themselves can have much better specific power, well over 500W/kg (near Earth), perhaps as much as 600-800W/kg.

To get an estimate of specific power on Mars (assuming they are brushed off fairly regularly), Take maybe a 30% amount (since they are flat and don't track the Sun), a 50% reduction due to further distance, and a 75% amount due to average amount of dust in the atmosphere (don't know what the real number is, this is a guesstimate).

.3*.5*.75*600W/kg = 67.5W/kg. So one ton of rolled-up solar array could produce an average power of 67.5kW (peak power of around 300kW). 15 tons (say, delivered 1mT at a time, one roll at a time, for 15 rolls) would produce a megawatt of /average/ power, with a peak production of perhaps 3-4 Megawatts. At reasonable efficiencies, you can electrolyze water into oxygen (or perhaps carbon dioxide into oxygen) at about 1kg per 30 seconds at that average power level.
...So one roll (1mT) could electrolyze enough oxygen for nearly 200 people, steady state (assuming a people consume roughly 1kg of oxygen per day). But, of course, people have lots of other power needs, and efficiencies at small scale are small, so you'd probably want a good 5kW per person of average power.
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #125 on: 12/31/2013 11:49 am »
Blackstar thanks,

Now if we could convince NASA to develop a rover with an air compressor to dust off the lander's panels...
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Offline go4mars

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #126 on: 12/31/2013 01:43 pm »
Did Insight settle on whether to include a magnetotelluric survey? 

Are there estimates of the longevity at the intended landing site?  (I'm curious because if long enough, future sensors might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.

Could the roll-out solar array test be inexpensively tacked on to Insight instead?
 I wonder if these could be unfurled like sails (gas-balloon rim?) or dragged like tails instead.  Even a long legged rover design with these as "ankle length skirts" of retractable segments.  Or unfurling on satellites in gaps between limbs on expandable geodesic shapes. 

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Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #127 on: 12/31/2013 05:23 pm »
Did Insight settle on whether to include a magnetotelluric survey? 

Are there estimates of the longevity at the intended landing site?  (I'm curious because if long enough, future sensors might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.

Offline mdatb

Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #128 on: 12/31/2013 09:43 pm »
I hope insight is successful. I am confident that mars is not completely dead inside, and insight will help prove that right or wrong.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #129 on: 01/02/2014 12:58 am »
Now if we could convince NASA to develop a rover with an air compressor to dust off the lander's panels...

But that was not necessary. The MERs did quite fine without any system for dusting off their solar panels.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #130 on: 01/02/2014 01:01 am »
might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.

I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.

It's worth noting that a seismic network on Mars was included in the 2007 NOSSE report as a possible New Frontiers mission, but it was later rejected by the decadal survey. So, except for further Discovery class missions, there is no established scientific requirement for a Mars seismic network. The decadal did prioritize a Lunar Geophysical Network for the New Frontiers 5 competition, so it is possible we will get a seismic network on the Moon someday.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #131 on: 01/02/2014 01:02 am »
Could the roll-out solar array test be inexpensively tacked on to Insight instead?

The InSight design has been finalized, so this solar array will not be carried on that mission.

Online vjkane

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #132 on: 01/02/2014 02:46 am »
I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.
The seismic instrument is French.  At one point, the Russians had it listed as instrument for the stationary lander portion of the 2018 ExoMars mission.  I'm not sure of the current status.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #133 on: 01/02/2014 03:52 am »
I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.
The seismic instrument is French.  At one point, the Russians had it listed as instrument for the stationary lander portion of the 2018 ExoMars mission.  I'm not sure of the current status.


My point was that the United States could offer to continue and expand seismic research on Mars by offering up an instrument for a mission after InSight. Of course, CNES could do the same thing.

Seismic studies aren't exactly sexy. But they are rather fundamental, so it's good that this is finally happening. I remember talking to Tom Young, who was the program manager for Viking, and he mentioned how they had a sensor on Viking but learned the important lesson that you cannot keep it on the spacecraft; it has to be on the ground.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #134 on: 01/02/2014 04:07 am »
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline go4mars

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #135 on: 01/02/2014 04:53 am »
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)
Speculative, but if FH cores get cheaply reusable, Red Dragon as a platform might fit that context.
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Offline go4mars

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #136 on: 01/02/2014 05:02 am »
might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.

I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.

It's worth noting that a seismic network on Mars was included in the 2007 NOSSE report as a possible New Frontiers mission, but it was later rejected by the decadal survey. So, except for further Discovery class missions, there is no established scientific requirement for a Mars seismic network. The decadal did prioritize a Lunar Geophysical Network for the New Frontiers 5 competition, so it is possible we will get a seismic network on the Moon someday.
Thanks for the replies and info. 
Looks to me from the pdf, that it's worth doing (page 3 has some pretty good claims with no back-up assumptions) but that ~2x the budget (for 3 identical landers) might have quintupled+ the science return. 

I'm glad to hear there's interest in a lunar seismic network at least!  Hopefully once somebody does it somewhere, results will be impressive enough that geophones become standard issue for landers.
Geophones can be light, cheap, tough, and ~passive (needs a little solar power).  These might go with abandoned (scattered) EDL bits rather than the actual lander.  Might not even need solar if magnetotelluric sensor/harness is included.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2014 05:12 am by go4mars »
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #137 on: 01/02/2014 01:43 pm »
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)
Speculative, but if FH cores get cheaply reusable, Red Dragon as a platform might fit that context.

And once again, SpaceX becomes the solution to all problems, including tooth decay...

One can speculate all you want. But in this context we're talking about a lander design that currently exists, and has been proven. Bird in the hand vs. two in the bush.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #138 on: 01/02/2014 01:45 pm »
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)

I assumed the context was that other countries may land on Mars, and if they do so, they are going to want to design their own landers (because that is the point). It is easier to offer up an instrument for somebody else's lander than it is to try and convince them to pay you for your own lander.

Offline baldusi

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Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
« Reply #139 on: 01/02/2014 02:11 pm »
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)

I assumed the context was that other countries may land on Mars, and if they do so, they are going to want to design their own landers (because that is the point). It is easier to offer up an instrument for somebody else's lander than it is to try and convince them to pay you for your own lander.
Besides, NASA is more trustable as an instrument supplier partner than a LV/lander module partner.
I would like to point out that, in this budget reatricted times, NASA appears to be replicating the SAC-D/Aquarius model with ISRO for a radar mission. And in the end, they did kept their promised instruments for ExoMars.
The problem with Mars, is that the are three or four proven EDLs for Mars, and all of them are JPL's. So it's very difficult for NASA to partner just on instruments since just now ESA and Roscosmos are developing the necessary technologies.
Now, given that both ISRO and Roscosmos are planning on landing on the moon, I believe that a Lunar Seismic Network could be done by supplying a couple of instruments and sanding one or two landers.
BTW, China would be the ideal partner there, regrettably.

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