Author Topic: What is pork on the NASA budget?  (Read 14565 times)

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
What is pork on the NASA budget?
« on: 10/28/2012 10:57 pm »
Firstly I would like to ask what the opinion of posters here is about non-American citizens commenting over NASA funding?

I feel that some Americans really don't like it. I don't do it because I have an agenda against the US. I do it because I love spaceflight and I want to point out inefficiencies in NASA.

I like the USA and I enjoy the company of Americans on this website. If anybody is offended please just stay out of this thread.

So now where's the pork?

First up.
 
SLS - Pork or not?

Some posters are saying it will never go anywhere and is just too big to be useful.

I say there is no alternative and NASA is stuck with it even at great expense. If they turn to ULA they put themselves in a very tricky position where they end up paying quite a bit anyway. SpaceX is not an option. They can't provide anywhere near enough lift in the short term to do anything useful.

Falcon Heavy would need to be extremely lucky to have demonstrated 3 flights before the decade is out.

If posters have anything they think is pork they should point it out so it can be discussed. I'm really confused as to many things NASA spends money on.

I think everybody should be able to discuss this openly regardless of their nationality.

Offline ChileVerde

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1176
  • La frontera
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #1 on: 10/28/2012 11:23 pm »
Firstly I would like to ask what the opinion of posters here is about non-American citizens commenting over NASA funding?

Well, as an American participating on this UK-based forum, I do not distinguish by nationality of the posters and read their postings for content, not origin.

In addition, getting a different perspective is usually a good idea.  If I happened to have an opinion about European, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, etc. matters, I'd hope for similar treatment.

As for the rest, I say not.
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #2 on: 10/28/2012 11:40 pm »
Thanks for your response ChileVerde. This forum is very international but the content is mainly NASA based which is a USA government agency. Many Americans get upset that non-taxpayers want to talk about their budget situation. It is my hope to change this attitude.

Now moving on...

Earth science, astrophysics and heliophysics - Pork or not?

This is billions of dollars worth of small scientific missions.

I've left planetary out. I'm not going to argue that's a waste because those probes go places and do real exploration.

This is something like $3.5-$4 billion dollars in small Earth/Sun/Stars observation.

How does it help NASA do the big things? Did they have such a burden on their budget when they did Apollo?

I propose that all of this can be done by countries outside the US because it's all so cheap.

NASA are the big player, they need to be playing the big game. They can't if they're divested into all this small science. That's billions that NASA needs if they ever want to do real manned exploration of the solar system.

It's just spreading limited funds way too thin.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #3 on: 10/28/2012 11:46 pm »

Earth science, astrophysics and heliophysics - Pork or not?

This is billions of dollars worth of small scientific missions.

I've left planetary out. I'm not going to argue that's a waste because those probes go places and do real exploration.

This is something like $3.5-$4 billion dollars in small Earth/Sun/Stars observation.

How does it help NASA do the big things? Did they have such a burden on their budget when they did Apollo?

I propose that all of this can be done by countries outside the US because it's all so cheap.

NASA are the big player, they need to be playing the big game. They can't if they're divested into all this small science. That's billions that NASA needs if they ever want to do real manned exploration of the solar system.

It's just spreading limited funds way too thin.

Wrong.  NASA is not just exploration or HSF.  Earth science, astrophysics and heliophysics are in NASA's charter and just as important.  They don't exist to help exploration, they are an end in themselves.

And yes, NASA did them and even more during Apollo.

Also, first understand the meaning of "pork"
« Last Edit: 10/28/2012 11:48 pm by Jim »

Offline wolfpack

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 743
  • Wake Forest, NC
  • Liked: 159
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #4 on: 10/28/2012 11:58 pm »
IMO, if there's "pork" in the budget, it's in LV development. That's where the Congress loves to stick their fingers. Lots of jobs in relevant electoral districts.

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #5 on: 10/29/2012 12:01 am »
Thanks for the response Jim.

You're saying that stuff is in the NASA charter and you're right.

There's a heap more in their charter than they have the budget for.

So what do they do?

Change the charter or just start shafting the stuff they can't afford?

It's never stopped them before.  ::)

Offline QuantumG

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9238
  • Australia
  • Liked: 4477
  • Likes Given: 1108
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #6 on: 10/29/2012 12:06 am »
Many Americans get upset that non-taxpayers want to talk about their budget situation.

Or just assume that, because we're not Americans, we don't pay US taxes.

Some of us do.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #7 on: 10/29/2012 08:26 am »
Unobjective thread, but allowing it until it gets more stupid.

Well, as an American participating on this UK-based forum

The site is not "based" in the UK. It's based in Texas. A site is not based on the nationality of its managing editor.
« Last Edit: 10/29/2012 08:30 am by Chris Bergin »
Support NSF via L2 -- Help improve NSF -- Site Rules/Feedback/Updates
**Not a L2 member? Whitelist this forum in your adblocker to support the site and ensure full functionality.**

Offline peter-b

  • Dr. Peter Brett
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 651
  • Oxford, UK
  • Liked: 18
  • Likes Given: 74
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #8 on: 10/29/2012 09:12 am »
It is important to distinguish between "fat" and "pork". Fat on a budget is unnecessary extra expenses only very loosely related to the core objectives. Pork is when spending on core priorities is diverted towards particular contractors or locations for political reasons; this can lead to inefficiency. I would argue that NASA has little fat, but rather a lot of pork.

This thread seems mostly oriented toward identifying fatty NASA projects/facilities/missions. I think that might be a much more interesting discussion than the politics of pork and earmarks, especially since no-one seems to have a very clear idea of what NASA's core objectives actually are or should be.
Research Scientist (Sensors), Sharp Laboratories of Europe, UK

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #9 on: 10/29/2012 09:17 am »
I'm sorry for the offensive use of the p word.

Can we please change the title?

Possibly "waste" on the NASA budget?

I think there has been some hysteria over SLS flight rates and I want to see if there are ways NASA can find more money for exploration.

NASA is needed for the hard things like landing probes on Mars and exploring the cosmos.

NASA needs to ramp up their exploration budget and employ only planetary scientists.

This is the first bit of their space act.

Quote
(a) Devotion of Space Activities to Peaceful Purposes for Benefit of All Humankind.--Congress declares that it is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all humankind.

Sending a man to Mars will help people develop the knowledge to one day settle it privately.

NASA is doing all the easy stuff and nobody recognises it.

Curiosity made people sit up and take notice.

It's not easy to be as positive about many of the other things NASA does. I'm interested but not excited.

NASA could be so much more. They're bogged down with the mundane.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #10 on: 10/29/2012 10:36 am »

NASA needs to ramp up their exploration budget and employ only planetary scientists.


Nope, that is not NASA's only job nor should it be.
NASA is everything in its charter, including aeronautics.

Anyways, getting rid of other "tasks" doesn't mean there will be more money for exploration.  NASA doesn't have a set overall budget.  NASA gets funded based on its tasks and projects.  Canceling a project doesn't mean NASA can use the money for another project.
« Last Edit: 10/29/2012 10:40 am by Jim »

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #11 on: 10/29/2012 10:42 am »

This is the first bit of their space act.


You just can't look at the parts of the Space Act that you like.  All the parts are NASA.

Offline ChileVerde

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1176
  • La frontera
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #12 on: 10/29/2012 12:06 pm »
Unobjective thread, but allowing it until it gets more stupid.

Well, as an American participating on this UK-based forum

The site is not "based" in the UK. It's based in Texas. A site is not based on the nationality of its managing editor.

More that than the location of the server it runs on, I'd think.  Does it matter more where a paper publication is printed or who the editor is?

Or is there some Texan influence on site policy I haven't picked up on yet. ;)
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #13 on: 10/29/2012 12:34 pm »
Unobjective thread, but allowing it until it gets more stupid.

Well, as an American participating on this UK-based forum

The site is not "based" in the UK. It's based in Texas. A site is not based on the nationality of its managing editor.

More that than the location of the server it runs on, I'd think.  Does it matter more where a paper publication is printed or who the editor is?

Or is there some Texan influence on site policy I haven't picked up on yet. ;)

Heh, suppose! I personally treat it as an American site, although everyone knows I'm English. Actually, I think it's really touching that people do come here if they think of the site as UK, and yet respect its coverage of a subject like NASA, seen as NASA is paid for by Americans. It is an international audience, but it's 85 percent American-based vistors.

Anyhoo, back on to the oink, oink.
Support NSF via L2 -- Help improve NSF -- Site Rules/Feedback/Updates
**Not a L2 member? Whitelist this forum in your adblocker to support the site and ensure full functionality.**

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #14 on: 10/29/2012 12:44 pm »
So how can SLS get more money if it's constituency is already maxed out?

Is there a cap on how much money is given to each state?

Who decides?

Does each NASA administrator get to shuffle things around?

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #15 on: 10/29/2012 01:10 pm »
So how can SLS get more money if it's constituency is already maxed out?

Is there a cap on how much money is given to each state?

Who decides?

Does each NASA administrator get to shuffle things around?

Congress decides on how it funds each project.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10974
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1257
  • Likes Given: 724
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #16 on: 10/29/2012 01:28 pm »
I've left planetary out. I'm not going to argue that's a waste because those probes go places and do real exploration.

Whoah there, kemosabe.  Pork is pork.  Just because planetary has some current successes, doesn't mean that they are immune to pork-itis.  The disease can affect any program.

And what the heck is "real exploration" anyway?  A personal expression of opinion, maybe.

On one of these threads a short time ago, a poster said that you can't do "real exploration" without a BFR LV.  I asked him to clarify the extent of the unreality that characterized Curiosity's exploration on Mars, based only on LV size.

As to nationality, it is the content and logic of the poster's remarks that is pertinent.

This thread doesn't have much potential for pragmatic utility, or offering a general understanding of how missions are prioritized. 

It's just for venting.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline spectre9

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2403
  • Australia
  • Liked: 42
  • Likes Given: 68
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #17 on: 10/29/2012 01:41 pm »
How does congress get a say?

I thought the president chooses the budget?

Can congress give more money to SLS if they need it?

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #18 on: 10/29/2012 01:48 pm »
How does congress get a say?

I thought the president chooses the budget?

Can congress give more money to SLS if they need it?

Congress funds the budget

Offline Go4TLI

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 816
  • Liked: 96
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What is pork on the NASA budget?
« Reply #19 on: 10/29/2012 02:15 pm »
How does congress get a say?

I thought the president chooses the budget?

Can congress give more money to SLS if they need it?

And here's the problem....

Threads like this are somewhat meaningless when people from outside the US, and even some Americans, have no clue about how the government works per the Constitution. 

Threads like these generally devolve into rants along ideological lines about what it better and what is not based on internet gossip and opinion without any insight into reality. 

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0