Author Topic: Good Moon Landing Question??!!  (Read 16269 times)

Offline Kidderboots

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Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« on: 08/09/2007 05:09 pm »
I know this isn't a "Hoax" website but I have a question that I cant seem to get answerd on the web so i thought I'd ask it here.

Why are there NO pictures of the American flag on the moon taken from earth??

It seems like it would be the obvious way to shut "Moon landing consperacy theory detectives" up.... Why not....??? ANYONE?

Offline hyper_snyper

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #1 on: 08/09/2007 05:10 pm »
No telescope (ground or space based) has the resolution to image the landed hardware.  Wait until LRO in about a year.

Offline Kidderboots

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #2 on: 08/09/2007 05:13 pm »
Something tells me that is absolutly wrong. the things we do everyday , and we can get a picture of a 6 foot flag on the moon surface....??

Offline HarryM

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #3 on: 08/09/2007 05:23 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  10:09 AM

I know this isn't a "Hoax" website but I have a question that I cant seem to get answerd on the web so i thought I'd ask it here.

Why are there NO pictures of the American flag on the moon taken from earth??

It seems like it would be the obvious way to shut "Moon landing consperacy theory detectives" up.... Why not....??? ANYONE?

To make some effort like that only serves to flatter and stroke the "lunar hoax nut's" need for attention where it deserves none. Only attention it deserves is a punch to the face a'la Buzz Aldrin where they poke their head in where they aren't invited.

Offline rsp1202

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #4 on: 08/09/2007 05:31 pm »
No, he is absolutely correct. And we have imaged the lunar module on the surface. The resolution, again, is poor, but it's obviously not a natural feature -- and not something left over from the Selenites.

We don't do cover-ups here.

Offline collectSPACE

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #5 on: 08/09/2007 05:37 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  12:13 PM

Something tells me that is absolutly wrong. the things we do everyday , and we can get a picture of a 6 foot flag on the moon surface....??
If you're really curious about this, and not just posting to stir debate, then I suggest you visit your local library (or Google, whichever is easier) and read about how telescopes work.

In the interim, from the website for the Hubble Space Telescope:

Quote
Can Hubble see the Apollo landing sites on the Moon?

No, Hubble cannot take photos of the Apollo landing sites.

An object on the Moon 4 meters (4.37 yards) across, viewed from HST, would be about 0.002 arcsec in size. The highest resolution instrument currently on HST is the Advanced Camera for Surveys at 0.03 arcsec. So anything we left on the Moon cannot be resolved in any HST image. It would just appear as a dot.
And that's referring to an object over 4 yards across...

Offline Kidderboots

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #6 on: 08/09/2007 05:38 pm »
I know I am definlty not a "cover up nut" AT ALL. I think it is impossible to come cover all bases of a hoax of that size...but all i am saying is....why not? I honestly thing it is a cop out sayin "our cameras arent good enough"....Can anyone post a picture of the lunar landing then? that would be great. Thanks

Offline bernse

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #7 on: 08/09/2007 05:40 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 8/8/2007  11:13 PM

Something tells me that is absolutly wrong. the things we do everyday , and we can get a picture of a 6 foot flag on the moon surface....??

No, it's not.
Firstly, the pole might be close to 6' tall, it is narrow and the flag itself is nowhere near that size.

Secondly, even *IF* they could resolve something as big as 1' across, the flag would look like nothing more than a few pixels. That would hardly be conclusive proof to the tinfoil hat crowd who would expect to see old glory in, well, it's glory.

Besides, If the pictures taken by the astronauts on the surface and the Apollo program itself isn't enough proof, nothing will be good enough.

Heck, we have a hard enough time getting resolution down to the inches level of our own planet.  :bleh:

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #8 on: 08/09/2007 05:41 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  6:38 PM

I know I am definlty not a "cover up nut" AT ALL

The guys posting above know what they are talking about. I'm allowing this to continue - normally we don't give anything to do with such conspiracy theories any publicity - because you're looking for ammunition against hoaxers maybe?

Anyone got the link to the badastronomy page which really slaps hoaxers down to size?
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Offline DaveS

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #9 on: 08/09/2007 05:43 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 9/8/2007  7:41 PM

Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  6:38 PM

I know I am definlty not a "cover up nut" AT ALL

The guys posting about know what they are talking about. I'm allowing this to continue - normally we don't give anything to do with such conspiracy theories any publicity - because you're looking for ammunition against hoaxers maybe?

Anyone got the link to the badastronomy page which really slaps hoaxers down to size?
That would be Clavius Base: www.clavius.org .
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Offline collectSPACE

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #10 on: 08/09/2007 05:43 pm »
Quote
rsp1202 - 9/8/2007  12:31 PM

And we have imaged the lunar module on the surface.
I think you are confusing ground based imagery with photos that were taken from lunar orbit, e.g. Apollo 15 Landing Site Spotted in Images, which refers to Clementine data. We have never imaged any of the hardware on the surface from the ground or Earth orbit (nor have we from lunar orbit but as the article describes, we have detected the disturbance to the lunar regolith at one of the landing sites).

Offline Jim

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #11 on: 08/09/2007 05:48 pm »
Nope, there is nothing with that high of resolution.

Offline brihath

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #12 on: 08/09/2007 05:50 pm »
Quote
collectSPACE - 9/8/2007  1:43 PM

Quote
rsp1202 - 9/8/2007  12:31 PM

And we have imaged the lunar module on the surface.
I think you are confusing ground based imagery with photos that were taken from lunar orbit, e.g. Apollo 15 Landing Site Spotted in Images, which refers to Clementine data. We have never imaged any of the hardware on the surface from the ground or Earth orbit (nor have we from lunar orbit but as the article describes, we have detected the disturbance to the lunar regolith at one of the landing sites).

As was stated above, LRO will put this baloney (I'm being nice here) to bed, just as Mars Odyssey and MRO put the "face on Mars" issue to bed.  Anyhow, the reality is much more exciting than the fantasy.

Offline HarryM

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #13 on: 08/09/2007 05:51 pm »
Earth based imagery isn't good enough. That is the truth. Future robotic missions like Lunar Recon Orbiter should be able to image the sites with some detail.

There were some images taken of some of the landing sites from the Command Modules which showed a bump for the LM and some tracks from the EVAs, but no other real detail.

The flags BTW were not "space-rated" items, and it is even said they were purchased at Sears. They were some sort of nylon material which has almost certainly disintegrated or bleached out from solar radiation.

Offline Kidderboots

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #14 on: 08/09/2007 05:54 pm »
Believe me I am not tryin to get fuel for hoaxers or vice versa. I am merly wondering why this simple question is the main focal point of debat for either side. I again believe there is no way a hoax like that is even possible so i'm with you guys.

Some people just ask questions with no hidden agenda.

I completly believe you guys and from the speed of the repsonses you guys live and breathe this stuff.

Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon. but we can get a picture of solar flares and galaxies billions of light years away...

you can agree or disagree (and please dont take this personal)

Offline Andrewwski

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #15 on: 08/09/2007 05:55 pm »
I think this is the link Chris was asking for.

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

This is also a good writeup, it includes pictures to help disprove the hoaxers.

http://pirlwww.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/NOT_faked/

And to reiterate, no, there's nothing with a high enough resolution right now.  LRO (Lunar Reconaissance Orbiter) will have enough resolution to show the sites in more detail.  I think there was a Science@NASA article awhile ago that talked about it.

Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  1:54 PM

Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon. but we can get a picture of solar flares and galaxies billions of light years away...

Solar flares are multiple times bigger than the earth.  Galaxies are huge.  And the flags on the moon are what, the 6 feet you mentioned.  See a difference?  It's just not possible.
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Offline punkboi

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #16 on: 08/09/2007 05:55 pm »

Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007 10:09 AM Why are there NO pictures of the American flag on the moon taken from earth??

 Wow... If this were a less-respectable message board, you'd be "flamed" by now... :bleh:

You'd need a ground telescope A BIT larger than the Keck and other telescopes combined to be able to capture an image of a human-size flag on the Moon... 


Offline Lee Jay

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #17 on: 08/09/2007 06:00 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  11:54 AM
Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon.

Think about it like this.  The best most secret spy satellites are suspected to be able to resolve something in the neighborhood of 6" on the Earth, from around 200 miles up.  Now, you want to be able to resolve about the same thing, but from 250,000 miles away.  So, we'd need a telescope around 1250 times better than the best spy satellites (which are sort of like Hubble).

To do what you want, we'd have to send such a satellite to orbit the moon and get the images from there.  We can't do it from here, it's too small and too far away.  Galaxies may be much further away, but they're also MUCH bigger.

Offline Kidderboots

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #18 on: 08/09/2007 06:07 pm »
Not tryin to offend anyone! just asking and just curious can someone figure out the distance to size ratio for these objects your feelin so strongly about. and re explain why my question is so obserd that people are threating a flamming?? wow. Thank you for the people who just... answerd the question and didnt take offense.. thanks guys

Offline rsp1202

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #19 on: 08/09/2007 06:08 pm »
Quote
collectSPACE - 9/8/2007  10:43 AM

I think you are confusing ground based imagery with photos that were taken from lunar orbit . . . We have never imaged any of the hardware on the surface from the ground or Earth orbit . . . we have detected the disturbance to the lunar regolith at one of the landing sites).

Thanks. I'm not confused. I was talking about CM photography (Apollo 16 & 17) from lunar orbit. The photos show some soil disturbance and shadow of LM's. I'll send you a copy if you like.

Offline collectSPACE

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #20 on: 08/09/2007 06:23 pm »
Quote
rsp1202 - 9/8/2007  1:08 PM

Thanks. I'm not confused. I was talking about CM photography (Apollo 16 & 17) from lunar orbit. The photos show some soil disturbance and shadow of LM's. I'll send you a copy if you like.

I'm aware of those but as the OP was about Earth-based imagery and your reply didn't mention lunar orbit, it was confusing as to what photos you were referencing. Confusion resolved. :)

Offline HarryM

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #21 on: 08/09/2007 06:30 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  11:07 AM

Not tryin to offend anyone! just asking and just curious can someone figure out the distance to size ratio for these objects your feelin so strongly about. and re explain why my question is so obserd that people are threating a flamming?? wow. Thank you for the people who just... answerd the question and didnt take offense.. thanks guys

Well, if you take the example of the spy satellite which can image something 6 inches across. Assuming these are at about 500 miles up. (don't know, this is just a WAG). Now the moon is roughly 250,000 miles away, that is 500 times as far away as the satellite is from earth. I am pretty sure that it is simple multiplication, it will appear 500 times smaller in dimensions. So what you can observe at 500 miles is 6 inches is what you would see at 250,000 miles is 3000 inches, which is 250 feet. So you would only be able to see a 250 foot object on the moon with your state of the art spy-satellite. In terms of area it is even smaller, 2x as far, 1/2 the dimension but 1/4 the area.

I am not a math type, so if this is wrong someone please correct me.

Offline Lee Jay

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #22 on: 08/09/2007 06:46 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  12:07 PM

Not tryin to offend anyone! just asking and just curious can someone figure out the distance to size ratio for these objects your feelin so strongly about. and re explain why my question is so obserd that people are threating a flamming?? wow. Thank you for the people who just... answerd the question and didnt take offense.. thanks guys

The nearest galaxy like our to us is the Andromeda galaxy.  It's around 140,000 LY across and 2.35MLY away.  That means it's 17 times farther away than it is across - equivalent to taking a picture of a 3 foot object from 51 feet.  This is why you can image it with basic camera equipment.

The famous Hubble "Pillars of Creation" image is of a structure 4 LY tall, and 6,500LY away.  That's about like imaging a 3 foot flag from 1 mile away.  Remember, we're 250,000 miles away.

Offline Andrewwski

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #23 on: 08/09/2007 06:51 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  2:07 PM

Not tryin to offend anyone! just asking and just curious can someone figure out the distance to size ratio for these objects your feelin so strongly about. and re explain why my question is so obserd that people are threating a flamming?? wow. Thank you for the people who just... answerd the question and didnt take offense.. thanks guys

http://hubblesite.org/reference_desk/faq/answer.php.id=77&cat=topten

And nobody's flaming.  They're simply reinforcing the factual statement that it's not possible.
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Offline bernse

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #24 on: 08/09/2007 07:18 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 8/8/2007  12:07 AM

Not tryin to offend anyone! just asking and just curious can someone figure out the distance to size ratio for these objects your feelin so strongly about. and re explain why my question is so obserd that people are threating a flamming?? wow. Thank you for the people who just... answerd the question and didnt take offense.. thanks guys
Nobody has taken offense. But, if you are genuinely curious at least look at some of the many links that people have been kind enough to share and have been referenced here. The reasons why not are listed in a clear matter so even intellectually challenged people like me can wrap my head around it.

This, really, isn't rocket science and the reasons why are very simple and easy to follow.

Simply put: We (Earthlings) simply don't have anything to image something that small from here. Period. There will be lunar satellites that should be able to in the future, but not right now.

The pole could be 1000' long, but if it is really narrow (which a flagpole is) it will be very difficult to image.

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #25 on: 08/09/2007 07:28 pm »
We left things much bigger than flags on the moon - we can't see them either.  You'll have to wait until we go back.

Offline cozmicray

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #26 on: 08/09/2007 07:31 pm »
LRO  will give about 1 meter resolution

Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera
The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera (LROC) will retrieve high resolution black and white images of the lunar surface, capturing images of the lunar poles with resolutions down to 1m, and will image the lunar surface in color and ultraviolet. These images will provide knowledge of polar illumination conditions, identify potential resources & hazards, and enable safe landing site selection.

So LRO may not even be able to show the flag?   But LEM descent module should be close?

Offline djellison

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #27 on: 08/09/2007 07:51 pm »
I thought LROC was 50cm/pixel - so something like the LEM des mod will, at about 4.5m across - 9 pixels - with a good long shadow

Doug

Offline collectSPACE

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #28 on: 08/09/2007 08:17 pm »
LROC PI Mark Robinson responded in 2004 to my query about imaging Apollo artifacts as follows:

Quote
"The angular resolution will be about 50 cm/pixel (dependent on the final orbit of course). We will definitely be able to spot the LM descent stages and Rovers."

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #29 on: 08/09/2007 10:52 pm »
Are we forgetting that some of the Apollo missions left a laser reflector experiment on the surface of the moon?  Heck, I think that's
proof enough that we landed/walked on the moon!  BTW, I read that these laser reflectors still work today....
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline pippin

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #30 on: 08/09/2007 11:13 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  7:09 PM

I know this isn't a "Hoax" website but I have a question that I cant seem to get answerd on the web so i thought I'd ask it here.

Why are there NO pictures of the American flag on the moon taken from earth??

It seems like it would be the obvious way to shut "Moon landing consperacy theory detectives" up.... Why not....??? ANYONE?

You don't need to shut up the conspiracy theorists. Let 'em talk.
Moon landing cannot be a conspiracy simply because the conspiracy would have been even more complex to do than to land somebody on the moon.

Offline MKremer

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #31 on: 08/10/2007 12:19 am »
With the amount of people and companies/corp's involved in the Apollo program and hardware construction/testing itself (not only mid-upper management/corporate officers, but those various and sundry individuals, engineers, and scientists intimately involved in the day-to-day planning and execution behind-the-scenes), plus the extra planning/constructions/setups/filming details to try and fake the landings and to try and create realistic fake lunar surface video/film, it would have ended up costing a *hell* of a lot more than our actual moon landings - especially since the 'faking' organization and management would have to plan and execute for a number of missions and try and make them as realistic as possible.

Also, if everything is supposed to be 'fake', how do they explain Apollo 13?

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #32 on: 08/10/2007 01:20 pm »
Also the risk of one (and all it would take is one) of these thousands of people to speak out and explain how the fakes were done and that would blow it.   Too risky from a PR point of view if they tried to fake things.
"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline kkattula

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #33 on: 08/10/2007 05:22 pm »
Look at it this way: the best picture Hubble can get of Pluto is about 10 pixels across. Pluto is 15,000 times further away than the moon but 570,000 times bigger that the LEM descent stage. That's almost 40 times bigger in a telesope. So the best picture it could get of a LEM would be 1/4 of a pixel. For a flag less than 1m, that's less than 1/16 of a pixel.

The laser reflectors are a good idea. Anyone with a moderate amount of equipment should be able to detect the reflections for themselevs. And they couldn't possibly be natural. Pretty impressive fake if it involved landing robots on the moon in several places to plant them. :)


Offline khallow

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #34 on: 08/10/2007 09:00 pm »
Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  10:54 AM

Believe me I am not tryin to get fuel for hoaxers or vice versa. I am merly wondering why this simple question is the main focal point of debat for either side. I again believe there is no way a hoax like that is even possible so i'm with you guys.

Some people just ask questions with no hidden agenda.

I completly believe you guys and from the speed of the repsonses you guys live and breathe this stuff.

Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon. but we can get a picture of solar flares and galaxies billions of light years away...

you can agree or disagree (and please dont take this personal)

As far as I know, the best way is to look for the cubical mirror reflectors left by some of the missions. Earth telescopes have shined lasers on the region (you can't get a sharp focus at that distance) and picked up reflections. The whole idea was to figure out how far away the Moon really was (they apparently were able to get the distance down to 5 cm). From the link above, McDowell Observatory in Texas routinely "pings" reflectors left from Apollo 11, 14, and 15 missions, *and* a reflector onboard Lunokhud 2, a Russian robotic vehicle.

Even if an observer can't afford the 0.7 meter telescope used at McDowell, I think you can pick up the reflection (maybe during a total lunar eclipse or near-new moon would be the best time). Send bright laser pulses at the moon and look for the dim reflections. By measuring the time elapsed you can even figure out how far away the reflections are.
Karl Hallowell

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #35 on: 08/11/2007 04:26 am »
I was watching one of my Spaceflight Films DVD on the Saturn - V the other day, the segment that pertains to the various Quarterly
Reports on the three Saturn stages separately, the IU, and the F1 & J2 engine development.  The Quarterly Report segment is quite
long, but highlights/summarizes the work of the contractors, sub-contractors, sub-sub-contractors, etc.  With the literally thousands of
dedicated individuals and companies involved in the development and construction of the Saturn - V, it would be foolish to believe that
any of the moon landings could be fake.   If and when you have the chance to see documentaries like this, your perception and respect
for what went into the work involved on an enormous project like this really hits home.
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline sfxtd

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #36 on: 08/11/2007 05:08 am »
Quote
khallow - 10/8/2007  2:00 PM

Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  10:54 AM

Even if an observer can't afford the 0.7 meter telescope used at McDowell, I think you can pick up the reflection (maybe during a total lunar eclipse or near-new moon would be the best time). Send bright laser pulses at the moon and look for the dim reflections. By measuring the time elapsed you can even figure out how far away the reflections are.

It is very difficult to detect the return because of the divergence of the light over the distance. There is a pretty good discussion at http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/basics.html

-Tim

Offline anonymous

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #37 on: 08/11/2007 12:29 pm »
I suppose the conspiracy theorists will dismiss the LRO pictures when they come in because they'll say they were faked by NASA too to keep the conspiracy going.

The corner reflectors aren't knock-down proof that people landed on the Moon because they could have been landed by robots (like Lunokhod did).

The best proof is that the US gave samples of moon rock to over a hundred countries. Moon rock has been examined by scientists in many countries (although I've read that most of the samples given away ended up stolen). The moon rocks are older than any Earth rocks and different chemically. Geologists were surprised that moon rocks were so different. They couldn't fake 4-billion-year-old rocks. The composition of the Apollo moon rocks is also consistent with with composition of the Soviet Luna sample returns. If there was a conspiracy, the Soviets would have to have been in on it too. Robot sample returns couldn't have returned anything like as much moon rock as Apollo brought back.

I made these points to a conspiracy theorist and he replied, "Well, how do you know what the Soviets motives really were?" I pointed out that the whole point of the space race was to land a man on the moon first, so if the Soviets knew Apollo was faked they would have said so. He replied "Well, how do you know there wasn't some kind of deal between them?" I pointed out that he was now claiming that the Cold War was faked too, but he wouldn't budge.

Offline Steve G

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #38 on: 08/12/2007 12:17 am »
Solar flares are many times the size of the earth, and Galaxies a about hundreds of thousands of light years across.  You're talking about a 6 foot flag a quarter of a million miles away.  I would have to guess that Hubble's primary mirror would have to be ten times larger in diameter to see any significant detail of a flag.  Even the new lunar orbiters from USA, China, India, wont be able to make out any significant detail on the flag.  Perhaps the LM descent stage, but that's it.

Offline Steve G

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #39 on: 08/12/2007 12:21 am »
Everyone saw the Apollo launched, and land.  So what was it doing for 8 days if it didn't fly to the moon?  That's a huge piece of spacecraft to hide and it would even be visible to the naked eye during brief portions of sunrise and sunset.  The way technology was back then, it would have been HARDER to fake it than to pull it off.

Offline NotGncDude

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #40 on: 08/12/2007 05:44 pm »
Quote
anonymous - 11/8/2007  8:29 AM

I made these points to a conspiracy theorist and he replied, "Well, how do you know what the Soviets motives really were?" I pointed out that the whole point of the space race was to land a man on the moon first, so if the Soviets knew Apollo was faked they would have said so. He replied "Well, how do you know there wasn't some kind of deal between them?" I pointed out that he was now claiming that the Cold War was faked too, but he wouldn't budge.

I can't believe it when otherwise intelligent and informed people pull the Moon hoax on me. I have to contain myself not to laugh.

I usually just toss the Soviet bone at them, like you did, and that gets them thinking. Who will believe that in the middle of the Cold War the Soviets will swallow that one quietly? I wouldn't say that's the best proof, but it's the easiest for non-space people to grasp. Of course this doesn't work with hardcore conspiracy theorists. Those will believe anything.

Offline gavsto2006

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #41 on: 08/13/2007 05:16 pm »
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Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  7:07 PM

Not tryin to offend anyone! just asking and just curious can someone figure out the distance to size ratio for these objects your feelin so strongly about. and re explain why my question is so obserd that people are threating a flamming?? wow. Thank you for the people who just... answerd the question and didnt take offense.. thanks guys

The math:

Let's say the largest object on the moon was 5 metres in diameter, I picked 5 because it's a nice round number and nothing was bigger than that anyway! The distance to the moon is roughly 384,000 kilometres.

Angular Size = 5 / 384,000,000 = 13 billionths of a Radian

To convert from from Radians to degrees:

In degrees = (1.3 x 10-8) x 180 / Pi = 750 billionths of a degree across

Ok, so we've obtained in degrees the area that we would have to look at to be able to see that particular object, now I will tie this into hubble.

Astronomers use 'arcseconds' instead of degrees. There are 3600 arc seconds in a degree. If we do the maths 750 billionths of a degree x 3600 we get around 0.0026 arc seconds, but because we approximated with the distance I'll round this upto 0.003 arcseconds.

So, I hear you ask? What can hubble see? Our eye can see 60 arcseconds, The best telescope on the ground can see objects 0.5 arcseconds in size, hubble can see more clearly, upto 0.05 arcseconds in size. That makes the moon landing equipment 18 times smaller than what hubble can see. Even if it was 18 times bigger it would resolve to one pixel, to put that in perspective you probably have about 800 thousand pixels on your monitor right now!

Now then, that isn't the only problem! The moon is moving across the sky at 0.5 arcseconds due to it's orbit around earth, you can probably see the problem all ready! It would be like trying to take a sharp picture of a train whizzing by!

Offline flg8or

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #42 on: 08/13/2007 05:24 pm »
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Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  12:54 PM

Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon. but we can get a picture of solar flares and galaxies billions of light years away...


Those are quite a bit bigger and brighter.

Why do you persist in this? We get that you have a hard time believing it. But why it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make sense to me. They're too small, and we can't get a good shot through the Earth's atmosphere or from Hubble. We'll get to it.

Until then, we satisfy ourselves with not listening to the drivel from the hoax enthusiasts.

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #43 on: 08/13/2007 05:34 pm »
I saw the ISS fly over last night, but how do I know it was actually real, and not just an image planted in my mind by the CIA?   ;)  :bleh:

Offline MKremer

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #44 on: 08/13/2007 05:34 pm »
It's because the tinfoilhat people can't be bothered with facts and research publications and papers, and heaven-forbid they have to search for and find any of those themselves! They'd rather make a big deal as much as possible about their own personal opinions (regardless of facts) and make others do the work to respond with appropriate facts and links in rebuttal.

Offline E_ E_ H

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #45 on: 08/13/2007 08:45 pm »
Try this website. Should answer a few questions...

http://www.redzero.demon.co.uk/moonhoax/

Essentially, as has been said, it comes down to arc seconds. The Solar Flares are relatively immensely larger - millions of mile across - than the flag. The Distant Galaxies are millions of light years across, and are therefore several seconds, if not minutes of arc across, which is why we can photograph them. We still can't take pictures of the stars within those galaxies, because relatively, they are smaller than the Lunar flags, hence not observable.
Ground control to Major Chris....

Offline cephei

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #46 on: 08/14/2007 01:29 am »
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Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  12:54 PM

Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon. but we can get a picture of solar flares and galaxies billions of light years away...

It's just science.  

You are talking about: resolution = wavelengths / telescope diameters.

Basically to see something as small as a 115-130 cm flag on the surface of the moon at a mean distance of 385,000 km you would need a telescope (opt wavelength) of about 200  meters in diameter to see it.

Keck is only 10 meters in diameter.

Hubble is only 2.4 meters.

So, the present telescopes that we have are way to small.


Offline wingod

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #47 on: 08/14/2007 02:24 am »
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Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  12:54 PM

Believe me I am not tryin to get fuel for hoaxers or vice versa. I am merly wondering why this simple question is the main focal point of debat for either side. I again believe there is no way a hoax like that is even possible so i'm with you guys.

Some people just ask questions with no hidden agenda.

I completly believe you guys and from the speed of the repsonses you guys live and breathe this stuff.

Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon. but we can get a picture of solar flares and galaxies billions of light years away...

you can agree or disagree (and please dont take this personal)

Lets see a galaxy is 100 thousand light years across.

This is simple college physics.  LRO will have the requisite resolution to image the landing sites.


Offline Steve G

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #48 on: 08/14/2007 05:28 am »
Can someone please mercy kill this thread?

Offline mr.columbus

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RE: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #49 on: 08/14/2007 07:22 am »
Quote
wingod - 13/8/2007  10:24 PM

Quote
Kidderboots - 9/8/2007  12:54 PM

Believe me I am not tryin to get fuel for hoaxers or vice versa. I am merly wondering why this simple question is the main focal point of debat for either side. I again believe there is no way a hoax like that is even possible so i'm with you guys.

Some people just ask questions with no hidden agenda.

I completly believe you guys and from the speed of the repsonses you guys live and breathe this stuff.

Just seems like a joke we cant get a picture of a 6foot TALL (pole) 3 1/2 foot wide flag on the moon. but we can get a picture of solar flares and galaxies billions of light years away...

you can agree or disagree (and please dont take this personal)

Lets see a galaxy is 100 thousand light years across.

This is simple college physics.  LRO will have the requisite resolution to image the landing sites.


And just to give some tidbits on other lunar orbitors to be launched rather soon. SELENE will be the largest lunar probe launched since the Apollo program, and its most precise camera will have a resolution of 10m per pixel... Chang e 1's stereo camera only has a resolution of 160m per pixel. The mapping camera of Chandrayaan has a resolution of 5m per pixel.

It is really just LRO that can identify items from the Apollo launch sites with its 0.5m resolution per pixel due to one of its primary missions being mapping of the moon.

Offline E_ E_ H

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #50 on: 08/14/2007 12:01 pm »
Quote
Steve G - 14/8/2007  5:28 AM

Can someone please mercy kill this thread?

I'm with Steve on this one. Please freeze this one Chris? This is a serious Space Sciene and Journalism site, not a forum for crazies and weird theories with no factual basis.
Ground control to Major Chris....

Offline pippin

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #51 on: 08/14/2007 12:54 pm »
Just one more remark: The arcesonds comparisons to stars, galaxies and solar flares are still not sufficient.
You also have to take into account that a star or a galaxy is an extremely bright, light emitting object in front of a pretty dark background whereas you only have a change in color (that is: reflected spectrum), and maybe a bit on intensity change if you want to spot a flag on the moon. So looking for the flag is more like looking for extrasolar planets which still is not possible directly but only INDIRECTLY.

Offline GB Jeff

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #52 on: 08/19/2007 11:53 am »
My understanding is that the flag itself would be completely gone by now.  Wiped out through deterioration by micro particles in space.  Am I wrong?

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #53 on: 08/19/2007 01:12 pm »
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GB Jeff - 19/8/2007  12:53 PM

My understanding is that the flag itself would be completely gone by now.  Wiped out through deterioration by micro particles in space.  Am I wrong?

Not wrong, was already mentioned on the thread.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #54 on: 08/19/2007 01:21 pm »
Quote
GB Jeff - 19/8/2007  7:53 AM

My understanding is that the flag itself would be completely gone by now.  Wiped out through deterioration by micro particles in space.  Am I wrong?

not by micrometeors, it isn't that bad, but UV radiation

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #55 on: 08/19/2007 05:11 pm »
Why is this argument about the flag?  There are much bigger things that were left on the moon than a flagpole - why choose one of the smallest things to argue about?
"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #56 on: 08/19/2007 07:50 pm »
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SpaceNutz SA - 19/8/2007  12:11 PM

Why is this argument about the flag?  There are much bigger things that were left on the moon than a flagpole - why choose one of the smallest things to argue about?

That's what I was saying in my earlier post in this thread; the laser reflectors still exists and can
be seen even today.  Also, didn't one of the Apollo missions (Apollo - 15, I think) Command
Module photograph the Lunar Module at Hadley Base from orbit?  I recall seeing a photo somewhere an image of the descent stage clearly visible (looks like a black, four legged spider)
on the surface, apparently after the Ascent Stage had already left.  Maybe someone here knows what I'm talking about and has a link to that image.
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Good Moon Landing Question??!!
« Reply #57 on: 08/19/2007 07:59 pm »
Quote
dwmzmm - 19/8/2007  2:50 PM

Quote
SpaceNutz SA - 19/8/2007  12:11 PM

Why is this argument about the flag?  There are much bigger things that were left on the moon than a flagpole - why choose one of the smallest things to argue about?

That's what I was saying in my earlier post in this thread; the laser reflectors still exists and can
be seen even today.  Also, didn't one of the Apollo missions (Apollo - 15, I think) Command
Module photograph the Lunar Module at Hadley Base from orbit?  I recall seeing a photo somewhere an image of the descent stage clearly visible (looks like a black, four legged spider)
on the surface, apparently after the Ascent Stage had already left.  Maybe someone here knows what I'm talking about and has a link to that image.

Ok, I think I may have answered my own question:

http://www.tass-survey.org/richmond/answers/lunar_lander.html

You all take a look at that and tell me what you think...
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

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