Author Topic: No lunar lift-off  (Read 26051 times)

Offline Hoonte

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No lunar lift-off
« on: 09/24/2007 10:23 am »
Was there some kind of plan or format ready if a LM wasn't able to lift-off from the lunar surace? or did they just had to sit there until they run out of power/oxygen?
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Offline imfan

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #1 on: 09/24/2007 10:44 am »

Offline Hoonte

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #2 on: 09/24/2007 11:08 am »
Were there any guidelines for an event like this. I mean if no lift-off was possible was is just to sit and wait until it's all over?
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Offline mikeh

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #3 on: 09/24/2007 11:56 am »
Outside of the post on the President's prepared statement and the recommendations on how to handle it there were no plans for the astronauts.  If the ascent stage didn't lift off or make it to approximately 50,000 ft the game was over and Mike Collins would have had a lonely trip home.
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Offline brihath

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #4 on: 09/24/2007 12:52 pm »
Quote
mikeh - 24/9/2007  7:56 AM

Outside of the post on the President's prepared statement and the recommendations on how to handle it there were no plans for the astronauts.  If the ascent stage didn't lift off or make it to approximately 50,000 ft the game was over and Mike Collins would have had a lonely trip home.

I remember an interview with Mike Collins before Apollo 11 that he was prepared to lower the CSM orbit as long as the LM could achieve a minimum orbit above the moon.  I imagine that given his sentiments, that he would have done as much as possible to achieve that.

On the other hand, the LM ascent motor was designed to be very simple in order to minimize the potential for failure.  The mission hazards were probably greater during the Lunar descent rather than the ascent.

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #5 on: 09/24/2007 03:19 pm »

Quote
mikeh - 24/9/2007 1:56 PM Outside of the post on the President's prepared statement and the recommendations on how to handle it there were no plans for the astronauts. If the ascent stage didn't lift off or make it to approximately 50,000 ft the game was over and Mike Collins would have had a lonely trip home.

A scenario which caused Mike Collins a great deal of stress.  He claimed in his book that the sight of the returning Eagle was the best sight of his life.

"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline Analyst

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #6 on: 09/24/2007 04:48 pm »
The way it was back then: Sometimes no backup. Fix the CM after Apollo 1 and fly 20 months later. Fix the SM oxygen tank after Apollo 13 and fly again less than a year later. No LON and all this stuff we have today in our risk adverse world.

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Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #7 on: 09/24/2007 05:45 pm »
On that note (tolerance to risk then and now) if this scenario had have taken place would the program have been aborted or would they have kept at it?  My guess is they would have cancelled all future moon flights?
"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline triddirt

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #8 on: 09/24/2007 05:53 pm »
Quote
SpaceNutz SA - 24/9/2007  1:45 PM

On that note (tolerance to risk then and now) if this scenario had have taken place would the program have been aborted or would they have kept at it?  My guess is they would have cancelled all future moon flights?

Interesting in that I've been reading both Chris Kraft's and Gene Krantz's books this month.
My guess is that they would NOT have continued.. Based on my reading at this point they had pretty good information that Russia was out of the race. The costs we're already high and the pressure of Vietnam was taking over the whole country.

Should we have lost two more (total of 5 with Apollo 1) it think it would have been to high a cost in both lives and reward..

Offline clongton

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #9 on: 09/24/2007 07:42 pm »
Quote
triddirt - 24/9/2007  1:53 PM

Quote
SpaceNutz SA - 24/9/2007  1:45 PM

On that note (tolerance to risk then and now) if this scenario had have taken place would the program have been aborted or would they have kept at it?  My guess is they would have cancelled all future moon flights?

Interesting in that I've been reading both Chris Kraft's and Gene Krantz's books this month.
My guess is that they would NOT have continued.. Based on my reading at this point they had pretty good information that Russia was out of the race. The costs we're already high and the pressure of Vietnam was taking over the whole country.

Should we have lost two more (total of 5 with Apollo 1) it think it would have been to high a cost in both lives and reward..
I disagree. I lived thru those days and the public used to talk about this scenario a lot. Everyone I talked to was committed, and prepared to endure the loss of at least two missions on the surface, plus crew. It would have taken a third loss on the lunar surface before the program was cancelled. At that point, there wouldn't have been a fourth. The mantra around the cape was "three strikes & we're out". Those guys were in it for real. They were totally commited to doing the mission, even if it cost them their lives.

Had there been a no-return, there would have been a standown while they identified and then fixed the problem, 6 to 9 months, and they would have flown again.

The attitude, unlike today, was not "safe", but "safe enough". If it was 70/30 chance to come back alive, they would fly without a second thought. It was a really thrilling time to be alive.

The entire mindeset was completely, totally different, than what it is today. These were not civilian astronauts. They were active military, all of them were combat veterans, and most were test pilots. Death and danger were their middle names. We were committed to the moon - totally. The whole nation was.
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Offline Jorge

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #10 on: 09/24/2007 08:11 pm »
Quote
Hoonte - 24/9/2007  5:23 AM

Was there some kind of plan or format ready if a LM wasn't able to lift-off from the lunar surace? or did they just had to sit there until they run out of power/oxygen?

Aldrin (IIRC) was once asked in a press conference what he and Armstrong would do
if the Apollo 11 LM ascent engine failed to fire, stranding them on the Moon with only a few hours of oxygen:  "I think we'd spend most of that time trying to fix the engine."
JRF

Offline halkey

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #11 on: 09/24/2007 08:19 pm »
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The mantra around the cape was "three strikes & we're out". Those guys were in it for real. They were totally commited to doing the mission, even if it cost them their lives.

I'd hate to be the guy flying the third mission after the previous two left a permanent human presence on the moon.  I think a lot of people underestimate how brave the first Apollo astronauts had to be when they landed on the moon using technology that had never been used there before.  

Offline clongton

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #12 on: 09/24/2007 08:22 pm »
Quote
halkey - 24/9/2007  4:19 PM

Quote
The mantra around the cape was "three strikes & we're out". Those guys were in it for real. They were totally commited to doing the mission, even if it cost them their lives.

I'd hate to be the guy flying the third mission after the previous two left a permanent human presence on the moon.  I think a lot of people underestimate how brave the first Apollo astronauts had to be when they landed on the moon using technology that had never been used there before.  
You would have had to have been there. It truely was a different time and a different world.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Dana

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #13 on: 09/25/2007 12:18 am »
Quote
Analyst - 24/9/2007  9:48 AM

The way it was back then: Sometimes no backup. Fix the CM after Apollo 1 and fly 20 months later. Fix the SM oxygen tank after Apollo 13 and fly again less than a year later. No LON and all this stuff we have today in our risk adverse world.

Analyst

No LON for Apollo, but they did have a sort of LON mission planned and ready with a modified CSM and a Saturn IB for Skylab.
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Offline brihath

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #14 on: 09/25/2007 12:59 am »
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Dana - 24/9/2007  8:18 PM

Quote
Analyst - 24/9/2007  9:48 AM

The way it was back then: Sometimes no backup. Fix the CM after Apollo 1 and fly 20 months later. Fix the SM oxygen tank after Apollo 13 and fly again less than a year later. No LON and all this stuff we have today in our risk adverse world.

Analyst

No LON for Apollo, but they did have a sort of LON mission planned and ready with a modified CSM and a Saturn IB for Skylab.

That's correct.  NASA was prepared to exercise that option when the CSM for the second Skylab crew had a leak in a thruster quad.  Vance Brand and Don Lind were selected to fly the rescue mission, in which two extra crew couches would be added to the Apollo CM under the outboard crew couches, but facing in the opposite direction.  The plan was to jettison the CSM docked at the axial port of Skylab and then have the rescue CSM dock at that port.  An unusual approach, since Skylab also had a radial docking port on the STM adapter which would have accomodated both CSM's at the same time.

After careful consideration NASA determined that the CSM would be safe to use for crew reentry and the rescue plan was dropped.

Offline edfishel

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Re: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #15 on: 09/25/2007 01:28 am »
Chuck is right.  In Ron Howard's new documentary "In the Shadow of the Moon", the astronauts were interviewed about the fact that Apollo 12 and 13 were already committed to making their flights to the moon and the understanding among the astronauts was that if 11 didn't make it, then Apollo 12 would try, and so forth for Apollo 13.  It was truly a different era with a different sense of urgency.

Offline RedSky

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #16 on: 09/25/2007 01:41 am »
Quote
Hoonte - 24/9/2007  6:08 AM

Were there any guidelines for an event like this. I mean if no lift-off was possible was is just to sit and wait until it's all over?

Jim Lovell starts out his book "Lost Moon" (about Apollo 13) by saying something like "Poison Pills.... why do they always ask if we had poison pills?"  He said people assumed such things existed not only for being on the lunar surface, but if stuck in lunar orbit, or LEO for that matter.  He always said why would he need that if he could just crank a valve and turn the cabin interior to a vacuum in seconds.


Offline MKremer

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #17 on: 09/25/2007 02:23 am »
Venting to vacuum will cause unconsciousness, but it can't be that pleasant just before.

Better to just turn off the fans, most electrical systems and remove the LiOH canisters once the O2 flow gets low, and just gradually 'fall asleep forever', IMO.

Offline dbhyslop

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #18 on: 09/25/2007 02:33 am »
Venting the cabin  would be much more pleasant than disabling the scrubbers .

Offline cpcjr

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RE: No lunar lift-off
« Reply #19 on: 09/25/2007 02:49 am »
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MKremer - 24/9/2007  10:23 PM

Venting to vacuum will cause unconsciousness, but it can't be that pleasant just before.

Better to just turn off the fans, most electrical systems and remove the LiOH canisters once the O2 flow gets low, and just gradually 'fall asleep forever', IMO.

I recall hearing Lovell state on one TV program about Apollo 13, that on the way back they talked about what to do if they missed the atmosphere.  They agreed to just let the Oxygen run out and to transmit as much data back to Earth as possible.

I would agree with that decision since it would be the honorable way to go. It is the one option that is not suicide.


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