Author Topic: NASA Langley confirms they are working to confirm the Widom/Larsen LENR theory  (Read 57624 times)

Offline jimgagnon

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New Energy Times Dr Dennis Bushnell (chief scientist at NASA’s Langley Research Center) wrote “We [NASA Langley] are NOT doing a Rossi Replication attempt although we are using/ had planned to use H2 and Nickel. We are doing experiments to verify, or not, the W-L [Widom Larsen] theory.”

Widom Larsen LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) is a technique designed to use low momentum neutrons to join nuclei and generate energy from the weak nuclear force, as opposed to fission/fusion which generates its power from the strong nuclear force. Advantages are scalable high density energy sources with little or no need for radiation shielding.

Good overview here:
  http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/05/nasa-confirms-widom-larsen-theory.html

Offline johncarpinelli

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There has been some progress in the development of LENR. The Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) was able to generate excess heat using nickel and hydrogen. This adds significant credibility as EPRI is sponsored by US electric utilities.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/09/epri-publishes-report-on-energy-production-from-nanoscale-metal-lattice/

Rossi recently published a report on his "hot cat" reactor which has a power density of 163.4 MW * kg-1 and operates at a temperature of 1050 °C.

http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/10/final-update-corrected-again-pordenone-hot-cat-report/

Assuming that Rossi's "hot cat" is real and there are no radioactive byproducts, what are the implications for space access?  Does this mean a LENR thermal rocket would be a possibility for Earth to LEO?

Aviation could benefit from LENR as an alternative fuel source. Would this enable cheap supersonic flights?

Online douglas100

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This is an interesting idea. I hadn't heard of it before. It appears that no new physics is needed to make it work (a very big point in its favour.) But there's always a big step from theory to use.

Quote
Would this enable cheap supersonic flights?

Far to soon to say. Let's not get carried away just yet by the promise of amazing applications. Any questions about using this as a source of energy in aviation or space are premature (but fun to speculate about.) It will interesting to see how this develops.
Douglas Clark

Offline bad_astra

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3rd Party review of the "Rossi Device." is now available. I was and remain extremely skeptical, but the paper is interesting reading
http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913


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Offline deltaV

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Here are some (apparent) physicists who think it's bogus:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/43138/widom-larsen-theory .

Online guckyfan

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Here are some (apparent) physicists who think it's bogus:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/43138/widom-larsen-theory .

I don't read it that way. They are discussing controversely, what happens but seem to agree, something really happens which is not just chemical.

With all scepticism this is exciting. But I am not a physicist and am not entitled to my own opinion at this point. This review is very strong in claiming something out of the normal happens. I don't know how credible they are though.


Offline grondilu

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An article on phys.org:

Tests find Rossi's E-Cat has an energy density at least 10 times higher than any conventional energy source

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-higher.html#jCp
Space is pretty much literally an astronomically-high hanging fruit.

Offline xanmarus

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« Last Edit: 05/23/2013 04:52 PM by xanmarus »

Online guckyfan

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This test is not independent and use strange testing methods.
More here http://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/05/21/rossi-manipulates-academics-to-create-illusion-of-independent-test/

Maybe I should repeat, that I am quite sceptic myself. Something that sounds too good to be true usually is.

But about strange testing methods. Why not? They gave a reason why and in their paper described that they made sure during the experiment that they err on the cautios side and the excess heat can be and probably is higher than they measured but certainly not lower.

And as this is a commercial venture by Rossi it is only natural that he keeps some secrets. No problem with that as long as the test is on the heat phenomenon and not on a theory what actually happens.

One wonders though why Rossi is not taking a patent. Obviously he does not want to reveal what exactly he is doing. Does he believe, nobody can duplicate his success?

Offline ChrisWilson68

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(bringing an off-topic discussion from another thread here)

well OK then i will reserve Rossi stuff for a future thread after this; but Rossi has been his own worse enemy credibility wise. this turning it over to a corporate third party as well as kind of going with an NDA for Rossi is most likely an attempt to distance Rossi and his baggage from the device. and i doubt that a serious U.S. corporate or government entity would take such steps if they did not view the device as credible enough to pay for and entangle themselves legally and reputation-wise.

in other news that could be applicable to advances space propulsion as a power source Rossi has shipped three LENR reactors to the U.S for evaluation by a Corporate or possibly government interest. This happened in April. Also Rossi's organisation says that from now on the PR and news point of contact will be this unnamed interest and not his group. 

Since Rossi's device are allegedly capable of scaling to at least the multi-megawatt range these things are very topical for space propulsion as they could easily power something like a  VASIMR engine or act as a starter motor for a fusion drive or act as power for deep space probes rather than using an RTG.

A claim by Rossi that a mysterious unnamed entity in the U.S. is evaluating Rossi's device doesn't strike me as any reason to take Rossi more seriously.  Instead, it sounds like more reason than ever to be skeptical.  This is just the kind of thing a con artist does.

First of all, the claim is conveniently completely unverifiable.  Rossi could just be making it up and nobody would ever be able to find any evidence to disprove it.

Secondly, even supposing Rossi actually shipped a device to some U.S. entity, all that shows is that some U.S. company or government group wanted to test Rossi's device.  There are hundreds of thousands of such organizations -- finding one that is willing to test it is hardly a difficult task.

Finally, what kind of reputable organization behaves this way?  Has there been even a single case of an invention being publicly touted but refused independent testing, then claimed to be shipped to a mysterious unnamed third party for testing that turned out to really work?  I've never heard of one.

With real inventions, either it is kept entirely secret or once it is announced, it is publicly demonstrated and available for independent testing by multiple independent reviewers.

Only pseudoscience works by publicly claiming results while keeping anyone from actually being able to verify them.

Online Stormbringer

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anyway here is the article the above posts spawns from:  http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/rossi-e-cat-undergoing-tests-in-the-united-states

additionally there is a patent in italy for the ecat by Rossi. apparently it is publicly available but not from any web link i have found yet.
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Offline cordwainer

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I'm pretty skeptical of LENR and E-Cat considering Rossi's personal past. Con-artist would be a close description for his past activities. That being said even if LENR proves to possible it would only be applicable as an electrical power generation system. The heat produced would be anywhere close to what one would need to produce a thermal propulsion system for a monopropellant rocket like an NTR.(Even if it were the system would still weigh quite a bit) It might work to increase the efficiency of a jet engine so cheap supersonic flight, maybe?

Online Stormbringer

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i just had a passing thought. i remember reading articles about a (too smart for his own good) american boy who used low speed neutrons from hoarded smoke detector americium to breed fissile uranium for a back yard garden shed nuclear reactor (which worked.) the process evidently worked. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn

and http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/2/

(If I recall correctly this article details his work with americium derived neutrons to enrich uranium.)

 it strikes me that that would be a low energy neutron nuclear change similar to what is being discussed here. also it seems to be a pretty big proliferation/terrorism and environmental threat too. but anyway it's not like LENR has no recognized confirmation. looking for a chemical explanation given that low energy nuclear transformation has been demonstrated seems to be uncalled for.
« Last Edit: 10/27/2013 05:13 AM by Stormbringer »
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Offline Cinder

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Can't see why keeping Rossi out of LENR discussion is not a good thing.  He is nothing but distraction.
The pork must flow.

Offline JasonAW3

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Wait a minute.

     If I'm reading this right it means that the guys who THOUGHT they'd discovered "Cold Fusion" had instead stumbled across another type nuclear reaction utilizing teh Weak Force rather than Fusion.

     Those poor guys... All these years they were ridiculed as frauds and hoaxters and it looks like they'd just misinterprated their data. Oh my...

     This would be the definition of tragidy...

Jason
« Last Edit: 11/01/2013 06:33 PM by JasonAW3 »
My God!  It's full of universes!

Online QuantumG

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Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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The guys over at http://www.quantumheat.org have been trying to replicate LENR for about a year now without seeing any excess heat so far. Just saying.
« Last Edit: 11/02/2013 11:25 PM by Elmar Moelzer »

Offline Nilof

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So if you assume you can make infinite neutrons you can use them to make abitrary ammounts of energy? What a shocker!

Either way, the obvious flaw in the scheme posted by the OP is that bombarding protons with relativistic electrons won't generate neutrons. It'll mostly result in loads of Bremstrahlung and some pair production.
« Last Edit: 11/05/2013 10:54 AM by Nilof »
For a variable Isp spacecraft running at constant power and constant acceleration, the mass ratio is linear in delta-v.   Δv = ve0(MR-1). Or equivalently: Δv = vef PMF. Also, this is energy-optimal for a fixed delta-v and mass ratio.

Offline flymetothemoon

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I think if NASA are committing funds to working on this we can't write it off yet just because we don't yt understand the science.

There are many, many reports of enormous excess heat and transmutation. Brillouin claim to be the only ones who can genuinely control it, but who knows if government labs are making progress in silence. The Japanese are definitely very interested in pursuing it - for obvious reasons.

Offline flymetothemoon

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...and talking of Japan:

https://news.newenergytimes.net/2013/10/22/journal-publishes-toyotas-independent-replication-of-mitsubishi-lenr-transmutation/

"The research appeared in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics earlier this month."

"This is the first mainstream, peer-reviewed journal publication of a replication of the Iwamura experiment."

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