Quote from: Blackstar on 09/17/2016 08:53 pmI think that one thing that could affect extended mission planning for Clipper is the desire to keep it around to support a lander mission. True, barring the next Congress being stingier but we'll see. In any case, if it's still functional with or without a lander its use ought to be continued, just like with Cassini, LRO, Opportunity...which collectively are another example of why an extension could be favored. If it still has fuel and the electronics haven't been fried, keep it going a lil longer.
I think that one thing that could affect extended mission planning for Clipper is the desire to keep it around to support a lander mission.
Quote from: redliox on 09/18/2016 12:15 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/17/2016 08:53 pmI think that one thing that could affect extended mission planning for Clipper is the desire to keep it around to support a lander mission. True, barring the next Congress being stingier but we'll see. In any case, if it's still functional with or without a lander its use ought to be continued, just like with Cassini, LRO, Opportunity...which collectively are another example of why an extension could be favored. If it still has fuel and the electronics haven't been fried, keep it going a lil longer.There is one difference for missions around Jupiter--they have to "fail safe" from a planetary protection standpoint. That means that the policy is not to simply run them until they fail and die. Instead, when it becomes highly likely that they will die, they have to be crashed into a safe body, like Jupiter or a dead moon. If we were all going to bet on this, the safe money is that Clipper gets delayed a bit, but still flies, and the lander gets delayed a lot, or canceled. That could mean that any lander would arrive many years after Clipper. So the odds of Clipper still being alive to support a lander are slim.
Quote from: Blackstar on 09/18/2016 03:29 amQuote from: redliox on 09/18/2016 12:15 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/17/2016 08:53 pmI think that one thing that could affect extended mission planning for Clipper is the desire to keep it around to support a lander mission. True, barring the next Congress being stingier but we'll see. In any case, if it's still functional with or without a lander its use ought to be continued, just like with Cassini, LRO, Opportunity...which collectively are another example of why an extension could be favored. If it still has fuel and the electronics haven't been fried, keep it going a lil longer.There is one difference for missions around Jupiter--they have to "fail safe" from a planetary protection standpoint. That means that the policy is not to simply run them until they fail and die. Instead, when it becomes highly likely that they will die, they have to be crashed into a safe body, like Jupiter or a dead moon. If we were all going to bet on this, the safe money is that Clipper gets delayed a bit, but still flies, and the lander gets delayed a lot, or canceled. That could mean that any lander would arrive many years after Clipper. So the odds of Clipper still being alive to support a lander are slim.In that case would there be any possibility to move it to Saturn after it has finished at Jupiter, surly Enceladus would be ideal for study with the exact same set of instruments?
Quote from: Star One on 09/18/2016 08:27 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/18/2016 03:29 amQuote from: redliox on 09/18/2016 12:15 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/17/2016 08:53 pmI think that one thing that could affect extended mission planning for Clipper is the desire to keep it around to support a lander mission. True, barring the next Congress being stingier but we'll see. In any case, if it's still functional with or without a lander its use ought to be continued, just like with Cassini, LRO, Opportunity...which collectively are another example of why an extension could be favored. If it still has fuel and the electronics haven't been fried, keep it going a lil longer.There is one difference for missions around Jupiter--they have to "fail safe" from a planetary protection standpoint. That means that the policy is not to simply run them until they fail and die. Instead, when it becomes highly likely that they will die, they have to be crashed into a safe body, like Jupiter or a dead moon. If we were all going to bet on this, the safe money is that Clipper gets delayed a bit, but still flies, and the lander gets delayed a lot, or canceled. That could mean that any lander would arrive many years after Clipper. So the odds of Clipper still being alive to support a lander are slim.In that case would there be any possibility to move it to Saturn after it has finished at Jupiter, surly Enceladus would be ideal for study with the exact same set of instruments?No, too much delta V would be required
Many additional potential spacecraft disposaloptions exist that avoid collision with Europa,including (but not limited to) the following: Jovian system impacting trajectories:– Jupiter (via short- or long-periodorbits, the latter using solar perturbations)– Io, Ganymede, or Callisto Long-term Jupiter-centered orbits:– Circular orbit between Ganymedeand Callisto– Eccentric orbit outside of Callisto Jupiter system escape:– Heliocentric orbit– Saturn flyby, impactor, or potentiallyeven capture– Icy-giant flyby or impactor– Trojan asteroid flyby or impactor
In that case would there be any possibility to move it to Saturn after it has finished at Jupiter, surly Enceladus would be ideal for study with the exact same set of instruments?
Quote from: Star One on 09/18/2016 08:27 amIn that case would there be any possibility to move it to Saturn after it has finished at Jupiter, surly Enceladus would be ideal for study with the exact same set of instruments?Maybe just build two copies from the get go, like MER
I doubt solar power would work at Saturn (at least without huge changes), and getting good enough data rates would probably need some changes to communications. And if you're going to change all that, you'll probably also want to rethink the instrument set...
Quote from: Jim on 09/18/2016 11:57 amNo, too much delta V would be requiredThis study seems to think capture into Saturn orbit could be possible. Europa Clipper can always add mass by doing one earth gravity assist instead of doing a direct flight that adds a year or 2. The real problem is power, not Delta-V. The study below assumes Radio-isotope and so wouldn't be affected as much by distance from the Sun. QuoteMany additional potential spacecraft disposaloptions exist that avoid collision with Europa,including (but not limited to) the following: Jovian system impacting trajectories:– Jupiter (via short- or long-periodorbits, the latter using solar perturbations)– Io, Ganymede, or Callisto Long-term Jupiter-centered orbits:– Circular orbit between Ganymedeand Callisto– Eccentric orbit outside of Callisto Jupiter system escape:– Heliocentric orbit– Saturn flyby, impactor, or potentiallyeven capture– Icy-giant flyby or impactor– Trojan asteroid flyby or impactor http://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/europa2012/ES%202012%20Report%20C%20Flyby%20-%20Final%20-%2020120501.pdf
No, too much delta V would be required
Quote from: Jim on 09/18/2016 11:57 amQuote from: Star One on 09/18/2016 08:27 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/18/2016 03:29 amQuote from: redliox on 09/18/2016 12:15 amQuote from: Blackstar on 09/17/2016 08:53 pmI think that one thing that could affect extended mission planning for Clipper is the desire to keep it around to support a lander mission. True, barring the next Congress being stingier but we'll see. In any case, if it's still functional with or without a lander its use ought to be continued, just like with Cassini, LRO, Opportunity...which collectively are another example of why an extension could be favored. If it still has fuel and the electronics haven't been fried, keep it going a lil longer.There is one difference for missions around Jupiter--they have to "fail safe" from a planetary protection standpoint. That means that the policy is not to simply run them until they fail and die. Instead, when it becomes highly likely that they will die, they have to be crashed into a safe body, like Jupiter or a dead moon. If we were all going to bet on this, the safe money is that Clipper gets delayed a bit, but still flies, and the lander gets delayed a lot, or canceled. That could mean that any lander would arrive many years after Clipper. So the odds of Clipper still being alive to support a lander are slim.In that case would there be any possibility to move it to Saturn after it has finished at Jupiter, surly Enceladus would be ideal for study with the exact same set of instruments?No, too much delta V would be requiredThis study seems to think capture into Saturn orbit could be possible. Europa Clipper can always add mass by doing one earth gravity assist instead of doing a direct flight that adds a year or 2. The real problem is power, not Delta-V. The study below assumes Radio-isotope and so wouldn't be affected as much by distance from the Sun. QuoteMany additional potential spacecraft disposaloptions exist that avoid collision with Europa,including (but not limited to) the following: Jovian system impacting trajectories:– Jupiter (via short- or long-periodorbits, the latter using solar perturbations)– Io, Ganymede, or Callisto Long-term Jupiter-centered orbits:– Circular orbit between Ganymedeand Callisto– Eccentric orbit outside of Callisto Jupiter system escape:– Heliocentric orbit– Saturn flyby, impactor, or potentiallyeven capture– Icy-giant flyby or impactor– Trojan asteroid flyby or impactor http://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/europa2012/ES%202012%20Report%20C%20Flyby%20-%20Final%20-%2020120501.pdf
Here's a proposal for a daughter craft I hadn't heard of before: http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2016/pdf/2602.pdfBiosignature Explorer for Europa (BEE)Anybody heard about this BEE buzzing?
Quote from: redliox on 11/29/2016 06:33 amHere's a proposal for a daughter craft I hadn't heard of before: http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2016/pdf/2602.pdfBiosignature Explorer for Europa (BEE)Anybody heard about this BEE buzzing?I believe that NASA is no longer considering this.
Quote from: vjkane on 11/29/2016 07:14 amQuote from: redliox on 11/29/2016 06:33 amHere's a proposal for a daughter craft I hadn't heard of before: http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2016/pdf/2602.pdfBiosignature Explorer for Europa (BEE)Anybody heard about this BEE buzzing?I believe that NASA is no longer considering this.I wanted to confirm that; I heard of a few daughter craft incarnations but never saw one in detail like this. I'm pretty sure the lander inclusion killed their chances. All the same was curious who heard of this. Blackstar would be perfect, although I suspect he'll just verify what you said.
In a separate, earlier project, the team experimented with which kind of drills or cutters might work best to bore through Europa’s ice, even tooling around with some of the standard drills you can find in your local hardware store. That research led to a prototype that’s now informing the development of future robotic arms at JPL.“Those kinds of higher-end experiments would never be possible without first doing the kind of scientific and engineering rapid prototyping to answer the basic question first,” Hand says.In answering these basic questions, they get closer to their ultimate goal. “The big-picture motivation [of this lab] is to advance our capability to seek out and understand signs of life on ocean worlds beyond Earth,” says Hand.
Scientists are hoping to gather clues about whether or not Europa could support life in the upcoming fly-by NASA mission. The spacecraft (it has no official name yet) is slated to launch as soon as 2022, and could potentially arrive at the satellite as early as 2026.The spacecraft will be equipped with nine main instruments, including spectrometers, magnetometers, cameras, and a radar. The plan is for the spacecraft to orbit Jupiter and use its gravity, and that of the Galilean moons, to do multiple fly-bys of Europa, all in about 3.5 years.Mission scientists are also preparing for the possibility of launching some kind of lander soon after sending off the probe, so that researchers can more quickly apply the information being projected back.If the spacecraft were to detect a hotspot of geological activity, for instance, or a region with evidence of organic materials, “then that might be the place that we want to send a future lander,” says Pappalardo. “But we’ll see how that plays out.”
The design surprises me a little, although still overall practical. Instead of a pyramid it looks like they're sending a box with legs, eyes, and a robot arm.