Author Topic: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats  (Read 869795 times)

Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #960 on: 01/21/2017 04:49 am »
The main colony access area. With some nice coverings over the airlock hatches. Think i'll call it area 451.  ;-)
Both images look good. 2nd image looks like a freight distribution center.

On the 1st image what is the big white area under the blue hang over at the end of the building?

Some suggestions-
The blue hang over would collect dust on top between it's self and the roof, needs to be sloped down from the top so dust would fall off..  For high wind they will need to be attached to the ground at points that hang over at given intervals. Perhaps more spacing between each docking port for wider trucks.

2nd image-
The garages ( transparent ) and the docks behind them, should they be replaced with airlocks for trucks to enter the building behind them and have that as the garage.?

Offline Oersted

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #961 on: 01/21/2017 06:07 am »
Regarding the propellant plant, I believe it will be incorporated in the first unmanned IST that lands on Mars.

No need to extract and set up the "factory": it comes pre-installed in its own housing, the IST, which already has the necessary oxygen and methane tanks to store the production of fuel.

Now all that remains to do is feed the IST with Martian water...

So any airlock on a Mars habitat (whether for crew or entire vehicles) will include two non-pressure-changing chambers, one inside at habitat pressure, one outside at Mars pressure. (As shown in one of my crude sketches.)

I think the same will be true even of suit-locks and vehicle docking-ports. They will be inside closable, but unpressurised, "sheds" attached to the airlock. This helps with dust exclusion, reduces sun damage, and should reduce thermal cycling a little.

Sheds either side of the airlock make a lot of sense. Very nice sketches. I would say the outer shed should just have an unlocked door that can be quickly opened from either side, in case of emergencies.

Few people seem to have any difficulty in Cusco after a couple of days at 9.5 psi.

Ugh, unless you're me in 1987 after too many pisco sours in Lima the night before. Arriving in 10,000 foot  Cusco was, er, unpleasant. Though I will say just a day later found me mountain biking to Machu Picchu, so it is amazing how the human body recovers.

I.e. exactly what Nomadd said: "after a couple of days"... He has very good posts, they deserve to be read.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2017 06:26 am by Oersted »

Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #962 on: 01/21/2017 06:45 am »
The BFS is expected to be usable for 12 flights to Mars. Leave it at Mars after the 12th flight and use it's tanks as storage tanks for propellants made on Mars. Perhaps better than sending it back to Earth for recycling.

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #963 on: 01/21/2017 07:34 am »
The BFS is expected to be usable for 12 flights to Mars. Leave it at Mars after the 12th flight and use it's tanks as storage tanks for propellants made on Mars. Perhaps better than sending it back to Earth for recycling.

Possible but that is 25 years after its first launch.

But I guess that the first one or two cargo ships never get back and can be used that way. After that they need to find a storage solution.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #964 on: 01/21/2017 02:46 pm »
Regarding the propellant plant, I believe it will be incorporated in the first unmanned IST that lands on Mars.
No need to extract and set up the "factory": it comes pre-installed in its own housing, the IST, which already has the necessary oxygen and methane tanks to store the production of fuel.

Two issues: That requires the ITS ships will be on Mars for long enough for entire the propellant production cycle. Either they are on Mars for two+ years, or the propellant plant must have an order of magnitude higher throughput (which is hard to reconcile with "fits inside the ITS ship.)

Second: It means every ITS ship carries the mass of the fuel production plant, every time. Repeatedly carrying it to and from Earth when you could be carrying other cargo to Mars, and returning to Earth lighter/faster. Seems more logical to send it once and leave it there. The only added cost/mass is the tanks for intersynodal fuel production. (You can send Refinery_Mass + Extra_Tanks once, or you have to send Refinery_Mass every single trip. In the latter case, the number of trips before you're wasting mass is 1 + Extra_Tanks / Refinery_Mass. And I suspect that Extra_Tanks < Refinery_Mass, so the number of trips before a permanent facility wins is ~1.)

If early ITS ships are being left on Mars, partially test missions, partially equipment drops, you might build the propellant processing plant into one of them and use the others as spare tanks. But I don't get the impression that Musk intends to (deliberately) have expendable versions of ITS during development, as they did with F9 and Dragon. HoG is expected to be returned and reused, straight out the box.

So any airlock on a Mars habitat (whether for crew or entire vehicles) will include two non-pressure-changing chambers, one inside at habitat pressure, one outside at Mars pressure. I think the same will be true even of suit-locks and vehicle docking-ports. They will be inside closable, but unpressurised, "sheds" attached to the airlock.
I would say the outer shed should just have an unlocked door that can be quickly opened from either side, in case of emergencies.

That was the intention, there's no reason for a locking door, it's not a pressure vessel. (Even on the inner side, you might have an additional heavy bulkhead door for emergencies, but day-to-day that would be left open and you'd have a non-pressurised internal door to control dust/noise/etc.)

Speaking of which,

Lamontagne,


I meant an enclosed shed for the vehicles, not just a canopy. The vehicle docking ports would be inside the shed. Likewise any vehicle airlock, personnel airlocks and suitports. When you pass through the airlocks/suitports/docking-ports, you are still inside an unpressurised room with a simple dust-blocking door, outside of that room is where you step or drive onto Mars' surface.

(Although that's not as visually interesting. Sheds, w00t.)
« Last Edit: 01/21/2017 07:30 pm by Paul451 »

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #965 on: 01/21/2017 02:55 pm »
Not sure if this is any clearer...

Top down view.

Green walls are unpressurised. Heavy black walls are pressurise-containing main walls. Blue segments are pressurisable airlock and bulkhead doors. Vehicles are black/yellow. Spacesuits are black/white.

Online lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #966 on: 01/21/2017 03:10 pm »
Views of air separation plants.

Air liquide:
http://ilab.airliquide.com/award-winning-projects/
Linden, see joined pdf file

Probably not all that large, and we may need to compress the air before cooling it?  Or perhaps cool matian air directly?  Output would drop by 100x perhaps?


Online lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #967 on: 01/21/2017 03:15 pm »
Not sure if this is any clearer...

Top down view.

Green walls are unpressurised. Heavy black walls are pressurise-containing main walls. Blue segments are pressurisable airlock and bulkhead doors. Vehicles are black/yellow. Spacesuits are black/white.

Clear enough.  I'll stick with the canopy though, because I see area 451 more as a bus stop than a garage, and the functions you show are implemented elsewhere in the colony.  Walls and doors are always more trouble than one thinks they will be, IMHO.

Canopy cleaning is by an automated system using compressed mars atmosphere.  I expect the duxt would stick to about any surface, so mechanical cleaning is in order here.

Online launchwatcher

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #968 on: 01/21/2017 03:37 pm »
Not sure if this is any clearer...

Top down view.

Green walls are unpressurised. Heavy black walls are pressurise-containing main walls. Blue segments are pressurisable airlock and bulkhead doors. Vehicles are black/yellow. Spacesuits are black/white.
With the vehicle and pedestrian airlocks arranged like that, someone's going to get run over...  I'd swap the vehicle docking ports and suit locks to separate foot and wheeled paths.

Online lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #969 on: 01/21/2017 04:10 pm »
Not sure if this is any clearer...

Top down view.

Green walls are unpressurised. Heavy black walls are pressurise-containing main walls. Blue segments are pressurisable airlock and bulkhead doors. Vehicles are black/yellow. Spacesuits are black/white.
With the vehicle and pedestrian airlocks arranged like that, someone's going to get run over...  I'd swap the vehicle docking ports and suit locks to separate foot and wheeled paths.
I think the personnel ports should be somewhere else altogether.  Although I expect all these vehicles will be fitted with the latest autopilot software, so probably quite safe, no need to court disaster...

Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #970 on: 01/21/2017 06:16 pm »
Not sure if this is any clearer...

Top down view.

Green walls are unpressurised. Heavy black walls are pressurise-containing main walls. Blue segments are pressurisable airlock and bulkhead doors. Vehicles are black/yellow. Spacesuits are black/white.
Very nice start, I like having the unpressurized bay. Keeps dust out of airlocks and shields from wind. If there is to much dust in the air outside they could still see.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #971 on: 01/21/2017 07:53 pm »
With the vehicle and pedestrian airlocks arranged like that, someone's going to get run over...  I'd swap the vehicle docking ports and suit locks to separate foot and wheeled paths.

The specific layout wasn't important. It was just to illustrate the idea of having an enclosed outside work area outside the airlocks, rather than having airlocks exiting directly onto the surface. (Or entering directly into the habitat.)

The only thought put into the layout was that the area just inside "airlocks" (vehicle or personnel) will be dusty and should be kept separate from "ports", which won't. Also that banks of ports (suitports or vehicle docking ports) should be behind another bulkhead in case a port leaks, and separate to the prep-area for the airlocks.

However, to your point, I doubt there'd be much mixed traffic. You would only have people walking around in spacesuits when the vehicles are parked, and you would only use the vehicles when everyone is loaded.

(Similarly, the idea of suitports is so you don't have to use a full airlock. So the only time the personnel/EVA airlock would be used is to cycle suits back inside for maintenance. Same with the vehicle docking ports vs vehicle airlock. So you would never see a situation where all four lock-types are in simultaneous use, as I depicted. Generally only one would be in use at any given time.)

Online lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #972 on: 01/22/2017 12:45 pm »
Flyover of the completed colony.  10 000 people.
Not yet a fully independent entity, there are probably others nearby.




Comments welcome!
« Last Edit: 01/22/2017 12:47 pm by lamontagne »

Online Jim Davis

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #973 on: 01/22/2017 04:34 pm »
Comments welcome!

Beautiful imagery and you obviously put a lot of work into it.

Would you care to share the schedule and budget necessary  to produce such a facility? How much revenue those 10,000 people will have to produce annually to pay off its construction costs and maintain it?

You know, the really important stuff.

Online lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #974 on: 01/22/2017 05:44 pm »
Comments welcome!

Beautiful imagery and you obviously put a lot of work into it.

Would you care to share the schedule and budget necessary  to produce such a facility? How much revenue those 10,000 people will have to produce annually to pay off its construction costs and maintain it?

You know, the really important stuff.
Glad you liked the animation. The colony would reach the state illustrated sometimes about 2050.  Value would be many billions, more than 5, less than 50.
The progression is based on the geometrical development used in the mining industry (as well as plant construction in the middle East): a small exploration camp (20), followed by a first stage of construction(100-150), a full fledged construction camp(600-1000) used to build billions dollar installations.

As far as numbers go, here are two spreadsheets, one dealing with the expansion of the colony, the other with the details of the construction of underground habitats. The basic premises I use are the SpaceX numbers from the September 2016 presentation.  These are not complete and formal analysis, but I hope you will find numbers you can evaluate and enjoy. 

But they are not as pretty as the video ;-)
« Last Edit: 01/22/2017 05:48 pm by lamontagne »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #975 on: 01/22/2017 08:38 pm »
I think it needs a lush some on top of the crater overlooking the crater below and giving a view of the land surrounding.
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Online lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #976 on: 01/22/2017 08:41 pm »
I think it needs a lush some on top of the crater overlooking the crater below and giving a view of the land surrounding.
Lush Dome!  Jungles take a lot of bandwidth.  The big oval domes are pretty lush, I expect.  I am working on a design for crater wall individual homes, for people who do not want to live with the plebs.

Do you want a waterfall in your jungle dome?
« Last Edit: 01/22/2017 08:56 pm by lamontagne »

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #977 on: 01/22/2017 09:28 pm »
Lush Dome! Jungles take a lot of bandwidth.

How about regular old agriculture? You had sporting and recreation fields, but I don't think you had any food production.

In soil, you probably need 3-5 square kilometres to feed 10,000 people. Hydroponics, you can reduce that to 1-2 square kilometres. With aeroponics, you can maybe drop that by another half. However, that's will a calorie-focused, ultra-simple diet. Potatoes, sweet potatoes, a few other high density vegetables. If you want animal protein, you'll need more food production (to feed the animals, 10:1 conversion), but not much space if you're willing to copy intensive practices. If you want variety in your diet, then you need low calorie foods, like salad vegetables. That will blow out your land requirements again.

IMO, the majority the pressurised volume of any colony will be food production. Just as the majority of a country (by land area) is farming.

[edit: I R ultra-simply bad at riting]
« Last Edit: 02/01/2017 05:13 am by Paul451 »

Online lamontagne

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #978 on: 01/22/2017 09:47 pm »
Lush Dome! Jungles take a lot of bandwidth.

How about regular old agriculture? You had sporting and recreation fields, but I don't think you had any food production.

In soil, you probably need 3-5 square kilometres to feed 10,000 people. Hydroponics, you can reduce that to 1-2 square kilometres. With aeroponics, you can maybe drop that by another half. However, that's will a calorie-focused, ultra-simply diet. Potatoes, sweet potatoes, a few other high density vegetables. If you want animal protein, you'll need more food production (to feed the animals, 10:1 conversion), but not much space if you're willing to copy intensive practices. If you want variety in your diet, then you need low calorie foods, like salad vegetables. That will blow out your land requirements again.

IMO, the majority the pressurized volume of any colony will be food production. Just as the majority of a country (by land area) is farming.
Yes indeed.  The lower levels of the habitats are dedicated to farming in intense aeroponics/hydroponics style.  See joined image, that didn't make it into the video.
The large open volumes in the colony are expensive, but perhaps essential? Psychological areas.
I expect there may be outlying farms, and I was partial for a time to plastic bags on the surface.
I don't expect much animal protein for a while, but I may be wrong. It's horrendously inefficient for a Mars colony, IMHO.  And it may be somewhat out of fashion by 2050.

Any type of home that might interest you, in this context?  I'm offering free homes, industries and vehicles to anyone who can provide adequate and convincing descriptions!

« Last Edit: 01/22/2017 09:50 pm by lamontagne »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #979 on: 01/22/2017 09:50 pm »
I think it needs a lush some on top of the crater overlooking the crater below and giving a view of the land surrounding.
Lush Dome!  Jungles take a lot of bandwidth.  The big oval domes are pretty lush, I expect.  I am working on a design for crater wall individual homes, for people who do not want to live with the plebs.

Do you want a waterfall in your jungle dome?
A big dome that has room for thousands of people. Like this, except without so many amusement park rides, more dome-shaped (so you have windows on the side to see outside, instead of just a skylight), apartments for lots of people surrounded by greenery.

(And less structure to block the light.)
« Last Edit: 01/22/2017 09:52 pm by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

 

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