Author Topic: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application  (Read 678150 times)

Offline 93143

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
  • Liked: 292
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #660 on: 10/20/2009 06:59 PM »
I didn't mean to imply that dialectric losses would preclude observation of the phenomenon. I meant that the losses would probably preclude it's practical application as a space drive. The energy requirements would be so high for useful amount of thrust that it wouldn't be worth it.

I'm not positive I'm correct, but it seems a significant point of concern.

That's dielectric.

If the experimental results to date are correct, your worry is likely unfounded.  Paul March has observed results (with less than perfect experimental controls, admittedly) that already exceed the thrust-to-power ratio of VASIMR by a factor of 10, with the thrust-to-weight ratio being better as well IIRC.  Woodward himself has been deliberately playing it safe with his designs, but he's apparently within an order of magnitude of VASIMR's high-Isp mode thrust-to-power ratio already.

Now consider that if the thrust die-off issue is solved, these engines can essentially thrust forever or until a component fails - no propellant required...  Even if you have to anneal the dielectric every few thousand hours, you might be able to build that capability into the spacecraft, and you'd still be far beyond where we are now...

Offline randomly

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Liked: 97
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #661 on: 10/21/2009 01:31 AM »
That's dielectric.
Heh, thanks for the correction. My own bad cooking had put another 'dia..' word to the forefront of my muddled mind.
Quote
If the experimental results to date are correct, your worry is likely unfounded.  Paul March has observed results (with less than perfect experimental controls, admittedly) that already exceed the thrust-to-power ratio of VASIMR by a factor of 10, with the thrust-to-weight ratio being better as well IIRC.  Woodward himself has been deliberately playing it safe with his designs, but he's apparently within an order of magnitude of VASIMR's high-Isp mode thrust-to-power ratio already.

Now consider that if the thrust die-off issue is solved, these engines can essentially thrust forever or until a component fails - no propellant required...  Even if you have to anneal the dielectric every few thousand hours, you might be able to build that capability into the spacecraft, and you'd still be far beyond where we are now...

Can you point me to any links that would provide more information about how much power is cycling through the capacitor per cycle vs how much thrust is generated?
Past experience with losses in large dielectric constant and piezo materials just pops up alarm bells for me if there is high power cycling through them. At some point if the energy cost is too high you'll be better off throwing the expended matter from the energy source overboard as propellant.

Offline mlorrey

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2133
  • International Spaceflight Museum
  • Grantham, NH
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #662 on: 10/21/2009 02:35 AM »
I didn't mean to imply that dialectric losses would preclude observation of the phenomenon. I meant that the losses would probably preclude it's practical application as a space drive. The energy requirements would be so high for useful amount of thrust that it wouldn't be worth it.

I'm not positive I'm correct, but it seems a significant point of concern.

That's dielectric.

If the experimental results to date are correct, your worry is likely unfounded.  Paul March has observed results (with less than perfect experimental controls, admittedly) that already exceed the thrust-to-power ratio of VASIMR by a factor of 10, with the thrust-to-weight ratio being better as well IIRC.  Woodward himself has been deliberately playing it safe with his designs, but he's apparently within an order of magnitude of VASIMR's high-Isp mode thrust-to-power ratio already.

Now consider that if the thrust die-off issue is solved, these engines can essentially thrust forever or until a component fails - no propellant required...  Even if you have to anneal the dielectric every few thousand hours, you might be able to build that capability into the spacecraft, and you'd still be far beyond where we are now...

I think actually that the only thrust die-off problem will be placing an upper speed limit as some percentage of C where beyond some point the occillations in the dielectric atoms will start generating radiation that will cause losses from thermal noise in the dielectric material.
VP of International Spaceflight Museum - http://ismuseum.org
Founder, Lorrey Aerospace, B&T Holdings, ACE Exchange, and Hypersonic Systems. Currently I am a venture recruiter for Family Office Venture Capital.

Offline khallow

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1956
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #663 on: 10/26/2009 11:34 PM »
Here's an interesting new angle. Scientists have gotten a bit of matter to vibrate at "tens of gigahertz". The mass that is vibrating seems to be on the scale of a micrometer (maybe a micrometer wide and tens of micrometers long?) and weighs 10^-13 grams.
Karl Hallowell

Offline HMXHMX

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Liked: 854
  • Likes Given: 270
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #664 on: 10/27/2009 10:07 PM »
Now for something completely different.  Hyperbola says they will report on an EmDrive vehicle/spacecraft later this week:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2009/10/ceas-2009-the-emdrive-spacepla.html

Offline kkattula

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
  • Melbourne, Australia
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #665 on: 10/28/2009 03:01 AM »
Now for something completely different.  Hyperbola says they will report on an EmDrive vehicle/spacecraft later this week:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2009/10/ceas-2009-the-emdrive-spacepla.html

Is it too late to get it included in the Augustine Report?  ;)

Offline mlorrey

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2133
  • International Spaceflight Museum
  • Grantham, NH
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #666 on: 10/28/2009 05:14 AM »
Now for something completely different.  Hyperbola says they will report on an EmDrive vehicle/spacecraft later this week:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/2009/10/ceas-2009-the-emdrive-spacepla.html

The operating principle of the EM Drive seems to correlate with my own previous comments although there seems to be quite a bit more opposition to its validity without any independent experimentation to actually demonstrate yea or nay, other than a claim in Wired magazine of a chinese verification of the technology...

Whether it works or not, I think opposing any proposed technology without independent testing and replication is itself unscientific
VP of International Spaceflight Museum - http://ismuseum.org
Founder, Lorrey Aerospace, B&T Holdings, ACE Exchange, and Hypersonic Systems. Currently I am a venture recruiter for Family Office Venture Capital.

Offline Cinder

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Liked: 51
  • Likes Given: 188
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #667 on: 11/05/2009 05:37 PM »
Any news from anyone experimenting with Mach effect, or Cramer's retro-causality experiment?
The pork must flow.

Offline mlorrey

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2133
  • International Spaceflight Museum
  • Grantham, NH
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #668 on: 11/05/2009 11:52 PM »
Any news from anyone experimenting with Mach effect, or Cramer's retro-causality experiment?

GI-Thruster got banned a while back. I've emailed him to keep in touch.
VP of International Spaceflight Museum - http://ismuseum.org
Founder, Lorrey Aerospace, B&T Holdings, ACE Exchange, and Hypersonic Systems. Currently I am a venture recruiter for Family Office Venture Capital.

Offline Lampyridae

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1645
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 121
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #669 on: 11/09/2009 09:45 PM »
Any news from anyone experimenting with Mach effect, or Cramer's retro-causality experiment?

No, James Woodward hasn't done anything, he was on sabbatical. Last I heard, Paul March was still working on his latest rig.
SKYLON... The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's preferred surface-to-orbit conveyance.

Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27019
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 6911
  • Likes Given: 4873
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #670 on: 11/09/2009 10:04 PM »
They just have to scale it up, now.
Here's the latest progress:


;)

Honestly, though. I'm not hopeful for any of these propellantless field propulsion techniques (besides lasers, solar sails, etc). It'd be ridiculously awesome, though. We could go anywhere in the solar system quite cheaply, and if something like the Polywell or FocusFusion works out (which I'm more optimistic about, since the popularly accepted laws of physics don't need changing, but still I wouldn't give them better than 5% chance), we could be sending probes to other star systems much the same way we send them to the outer planets. But, this is only a dream. A beautiful dream, but a dream nonetheless. EDIT: All this IMHO.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2009 10:05 PM by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Lampyridae

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1645
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 121
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #671 on: 11/10/2009 11:55 PM »
LOL, funny video!

I would give Bussard a much better chance however. It is, after all, based on a fusion "reactor" that a reasonably competent high school student can build out of junk. There's no reason why such a thing shouldn't be possible, we've just been taught that there are no easy power sources - both by the oil crowd and the environmentalists.

It's not whether Bussard polywells won't work - just like Tokamak fusion - it's a question of how economically viable they will be and when. We've been hammering at fusion and plasma physics for 50 years now, I think it's reasonable to say we've learned something about how to "hold jelly with strings..."
SKYLON... The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's preferred surface-to-orbit conveyance.

Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 829
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 876
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #672 on: 11/15/2009 04:35 AM »
Any news from anyone experimenting with Mach effect, or Cramer's retro-causality experiment?

No, James Woodward hasn't done anything, he was on sabbatical. Last I heard, Paul March was still working on his latest rig.

Dr. Woodward is curently building up a shuttler UFG design that should be opertional after the first of the year.  I've run into some technical issues with my MLT-2009 that will require a complete rebuild of the Teflon based test article centered on improving the large losses encountered in the resonant circut at 52 MHz.  On another track I'm also helping Dr. Harold White in developing two different test articles that will explore his QVF/MHD conjecture with some first light data expected sometime during this coming Xmas vacation, if family circumstances permit.
Star-Drive

Offline Cinder

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Liked: 51
  • Likes Given: 188
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #673 on: 11/16/2009 01:42 AM »
Thanks :)  Will these delays mean no conference presentation early next year?
The pork must flow.

Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 829
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 876
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #674 on: 11/16/2009 03:10 AM »
Thanks :)  Will these delays mean no conference presentation early next year?

Dr. Woodward will be presenting at SPESIF-2010 and has already submitted his paper for same covering his M-E proof of principle rotary work from last spring, but it will not cover this shuttler work except perhaps in his PowerPoint presentation for same.  I will not be presenting until I get something to work and have data to present.  These conferences cost too much otherwise.
Star-Drive

Offline Cinder

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Liked: 51
  • Likes Given: 188
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #675 on: 12/02/2009 09:32 PM »
Thanks!
The pork must flow.

Offline bpb3

  • Member
  • Posts: 8
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #676 on: 01/02/2010 02:40 PM »
Star Drive:   Is there any progress you can report on with your lasted MLT device?   Last we heard was that you had some kind of manufacturing flaw to correct.   

Thanks.


Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 829
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 876
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #677 on: 01/02/2010 06:47 PM »
Star Drive:   Is there any progress you can report on with your lasted MLT device?   Last we heard was that you had some kind of manufacturing flaw to correct.   

Thanks.


Bpb3:

Sadly I found that it would take an entire rebuild of the Teflon MLT that I built to fix the electrical loss problems uncovered during inital testing, and I just haven't had the heart or time to push it any further at this time.  Instead I've been helping Jim Woodward on his M-E based "Shuttler" design work, and building QVF/MHD based test articles for Dr. Harold (Sonny) White who works here at JSC.  One of those QVF/MHD test articles has the potential of producing the sought after 1.0 Newton of thrust, but it requires a 15kV-dc power supply to do so, so I'm in the middle of fabricating one as I type this note.
Star-Drive

Offline Lampyridae

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1645
  • Liked: 64
  • Likes Given: 121
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #678 on: 01/03/2010 01:26 PM »
Sounds exciting. How far along is Dr. White's test article? Are there any schematics of it?
SKYLON... The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's preferred surface-to-orbit conveyance.

Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 829
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 876
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Propellantless Field Propulsion and application
« Reply #679 on: 01/03/2010 02:35 PM »
Sounds exciting. How far along is Dr. White's test article? Are there any schematics of it?


Lampy:

It looks very much like an MLT, however it is optimized to ehance the toroidal B-field in same.   I hope to have some intial test runs on it by the end of next weekend.
Star-Drive

Tags: