Author Topic: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station  (Read 45875 times)

Offline TrevorMonty

This news report is not going to lead anywhere. Even if NASA brass spoke about this, Congress is not going to fund a project that requires Russian cooperation under the current climate.
Congress is already funding a NASA DSH. Having international partners involved in some way will benefit NASA.

Offline SLC17A5

  • Member
  • Posts: 49
  • United States
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 62
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #21 on: 01/24/2016 02:24 pm »
1. The Nauka debacle.  Why would NASA expect a different result for another module?

2. Russian upper stages are unreliable for BEO missions.  Why would NASA take the chance?

3. New NASA rockets and spacecraft are coming online in the late 2010s.  Why would NASA choose to use Russian rockets instead?

4. Previous Russian civil space programs have required major Western subsidy.  Why would the US create a new subsidy in the current political climate?

5. Collaboration with international partners incurs overhead costs and hampers mission design.  Why would NASA be inclined (eheh) to pay these costs and design Russian-friendly missions in light of #1-4?

What I am trying to get at here is that Roscosmos needs to bring something NASA wants to the table for collaboration to go beyond the proposal stage.

Offline B. Hendrickx

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1382
  • Liked: 1891
  • Likes Given: 67
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #22 on: 04/20/2016 09:56 pm »
http://tass.ru/kosmos/3221884

ITAR-TASS quotes Roskosmos deputy general director Sergei Savelyev  as saying that Russia and the US are discussing the possibility of joint operations in lunar orbit. Savelyev is currently in Washington for talks with NASA officials including William Gerstenmaier (Associate Administrator for Human Exploration and Operations) and Al Condes (Associate Administrator for NASA's Office of International and Interagency Relations).

Savelyev did not reveal many specifics, merely saying that NASA and Roskosmos are in the process of "formulating tasks" for such joint operations. He pointed out that while the US is not interested in sending astronauts to the lunar surface, the agency considers  cislunar operations as a critical step on the road to Mars. The joint work would be aimed at "testing new technologies and studying working conditions which will be much harsher than in low Earth orbit".

According to Savelyev the main point on the agenda during the current talks is to increase the efficiency of the ISS. One item under discussion is the development of a unified docking system that would allow the new US piloted vehicles to dock with the Russian segment, which eventually will "bring us closer to joint operations in lunar orbit". The TASS report says (without specifically quoting Savelyev) that the two sides are discussing the possibility of flying Russian cosmonauts on the new US manned vehicles.

Savelyev confirmed that Charles Bolden has invited other nations, including Russia, to take part in the unmanned exploration of Mars, but added that Roskosmos sees manned missions to Mars as a much more distant goal than NASA. 

Offline gospacex

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3024
  • Liked: 543
  • Likes Given: 604
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #23 on: 04/20/2016 10:40 pm »
The West is not interested in new joint space projects.  Russia has nothing to offer in terms of money, rocketry, or spacecraft.
Without Russian rockets and spacecraft there would be no Western HSF for last 5 years or the next two. The ISS would long since reentered and burnt up.

Not necessarily. It's quite likely that in such alternative history Shuttle would simply continue flying and serving ISS.

Quote
Most US launches are on reliable Russian engines.

And the only catastrophic US launch failure in many years - Antares - was on a Russian engine too.
« Last Edit: 04/20/2016 10:42 pm by gospacex »

Offline Lar

  • Fan boy at large
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13463
  • Saw Gemini live on TV
  • A large LEGO storage facility ... in Michigan
  • Liked: 11864
  • Likes Given: 11086
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #24 on: 04/20/2016 10:46 pm »
And the only catastrophic US launch failure in many years - Antares - was on a Russian engine too.
That's not quite fair. I'd call CRS7 a catastrophic launch failure. (Granted, it's very unlikely that the failure was directly due to the Merlins)
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline jtrame

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 309
  • W4FJT
  • Knoxville, TN
  • Liked: 86
  • Likes Given: 346
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #25 on: 04/20/2016 10:55 pm »
International cooperation in BEO is desirable on many levels, cost being one, and space detente at least helps keep strained relations on the planet at a low boil.
« Last Edit: 04/21/2016 12:01 am by jtrame »

Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #26 on: 04/21/2016 03:20 am »

РФ считает перспективу полета к Марсу более далекой, чем заявляют США
RIA Novosti, Moscow 20th of April 2016
Quote
Такое мнение высказал заместитель руководителя Роскосмоса Сергей Савельев. Президент США поставил перед НАСА задачу организовать экспедицию к астероиду, а в 2030 году - к Марсу.

ВАШИНГТОН, 20 апр – РИА Новости. Россия считает, что перспектива полета к Марсу более отдаленная, чем свидетельствуют прогнозы США, которые надеются совершить пилотируемый полет к планете в 2030-х годах, заявил заместитель руководителя Роскосмоса Сергей Савельев.
"Мы считаем, что перспектива полета к Марсу более дальняя, нежели чем это формулируют американские партнеры", — сказал Савельев по итогам состоявшихся в Вашингтоне переговоров по сотрудничеству двух стран в космосе.
Президент Обама в 2010 году поставил перед НАСА задачу организовать экспедицию к астероиду, а в 2030 году — к Марсу, новый план отменил сформулированную ранее Джорджем Бушем ориентируемую на Луну программу Constellation ("Созвездие"), по которой до 2020 года американские астронавты должны были высадиться на Луну.

"Конечно, нас приглашают к этой работе, но здесь, насколько я понимаю, нет консолидированного мнения у других международных партнеров, в том числе европейских", — отметил Савельев, комментируя взаимодействие двух стран по марсианской программе.
Ранее сообщалось, что США надеются осуществить первую пилотируемую миссию на Марс в середине 30-х годов нынешнего столетия.
In nutshell - According to Sergey Saveliev, Roskosmos Deputy, Russian Federation believes that manned mission to Mars would take place much later than 2030s (as planned by NASA).  The good news that NASA invited ROSKOSMOS to participate to in manned expeditions to asteroid and to Mars, however there is no consolidated point of view reached by all international partners, including Europeans.
Saveliev met with NASA Deputy William Gerstenmaier (Associate Administrator for Human Exploration and Operations), his counterpart Al Condes (Associate Administrator of NASA’s Office of International and Interagency Relations) and other NASA officials. NASA/Roscosmos talks in Washington were based on bilateral framework between RF and USA.     

See also http://tass.ru/kosmos/3221884
« Last Edit: 04/21/2016 03:52 am by fregate »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #27 on: 04/21/2016 01:48 pm »
A small joint platform in high lunar orbit would be interesting. I would invite the Chinese, as well. Maybe a 3 person crew for 6 months stays, with the platform deserted between missions.  Good practice for Mars.


Offline Todd Martin

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
  • Stacy, MN
  • Liked: 100
  • Likes Given: 113
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #28 on: 04/21/2016 02:49 pm »
While current discussions center on a future orbiting cislunar station, my belief is that next year we will change course and negotiate building & supporting an international lunar surface scientific outpost.

SLS & Orion need an affordable destination.  The moon is cheaper than Mars. 

From a science collection point of view, the lunar surface is more interesting than another microgravity station (which is farther away and therefore more expensive to support than our existing ISS).  In addition, a lunar surface station provides opportunities for ISRU and commercial opportunities.     

Offline RonM

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3340
  • Atlanta, Georgia USA
  • Liked: 2231
  • Likes Given: 1584
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #29 on: 04/21/2016 03:48 pm »
While current discussions center on a future orbiting cislunar station, my belief is that next year we will change course and negotiate building & supporting an international lunar surface scientific outpost.

SLS & Orion need an affordable destination.  The moon is cheaper than Mars. 

From a science collection point of view, the lunar surface is more interesting than another microgravity station (which is farther away and therefore more expensive to support than our existing ISS).  In addition, a lunar surface station provides opportunities for ISRU and commercial opportunities.     

In addition to lunar research, medical studies on living in lunar gravity will be key for future space colonization.

If lunar gravity is sufficient to avoid the medical complications of microgravity, then a base or colony on the Moon or Mars is a possibility. If not, then we'll have to wait until we test on Mars before deciding whether or not it can be colonized. Also important for the AG level on rotating space stations.

While a small base on the lunar surface would be expensive, it would return more science than an orbital station. Doesn't have to be constantly crewed, the occasional multi-month expedition will do.

Offline Donosauro

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 170
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #30 on: 04/21/2016 04:50 pm »
Can anyone explain the value of DRO for an orbital outpost or otherwise?

http://ccar.colorado.edu/asen5050/projects/projects_2013/Johnson_Kirstyn/finalorbit.html

"The most appealing aspect of a DRO is its stability...."

Offline TrevorMonty

DRO is ideal for storing asteroid but for lunar access Near rectilinear orbits (NRO) maybe better, especially the poles.

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Whitley_4-13-16/

I had never heard of them till listening to this Fiso talk.

It will be interesting to see where SLS goes first, especially if there is no Asteroid at DRO for first few HSF missions.

Offline redliox

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2539
  • Illinois USA
  • Liked: 683
  • Likes Given: 97
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #32 on: 04/21/2016 06:01 pm »
This news report is not going to lead anywhere. Even if NASA brass spoke about this, Congress is not going to fund a project that requires Russian cooperation under the current climate.

Have to agree, especially considering the Russian engine ban is still being debated.

We'll probably see some form of a Lunar space station, likely the DSH with some international help.  However we're more likely to see commercial (i.e. Bigelow most likely) modules versus anything from Russia.  International cooperation would be nice but I see it more as a way of gaining political versus actual technical support.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #33 on: 04/21/2016 07:01 pm »
Well .... hypothetically, if Russia and China had a launcher more powerful than Proton, then they could useful things for a habitat in high Lunar orbit. Let's say that Russia could launch a Progress beyond LEO on some sort of Angara, if that Progress could dock with the habitat, that would certainly be useful.

What would be needed would be an international standard docking system plus rendezvous aids.

Could that be arranged in some sort of context where the usual BS in Russian supplying hardware for an international project be mitigated? Don't know. Let's say that Russia was to provide the base module (a small one) and NASA some sort of BEAM derivative and China a power module, how could the usual delays be mitigated?  Or China could provide a Tiangong class base module and Russia could provide resupply.



Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #34 on: 04/22/2016 01:53 am »
Can anyone explain the value of DRO for an orbital outpost or otherwise?

http://ccar.colorado.edu/asen5050/projects/projects_2013/Johnson_Kirstyn/finalorbit.html

"The most appealing aspect of a DRO is its stability...."
Delta-V budget for DRO also is looking BETTER than any other destination in Cislunar Space (LLO, EML1, EML2). 
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline fregate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 939
  • Space Association of Australia
  • Melbourne Australia
  • Liked: 144
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #35 on: 04/22/2016 01:55 am »
Well .... hypothetically, if Russia and China had a launcher more powerful than Proton, then they could useful things for a habitat in high Lunar orbit. Let's say that Russia could launch a Progress beyond LEO on some sort of Angara, if that Progress could dock with the habitat, that would certainly be useful.

What would be needed would be an international standard docking system plus rendezvous aids.

Could that be arranged in some sort of context where the usual BS in Russian supplying hardware for an international project be mitigated? Don't know. Let's say that Russia was to provide the base module (a small one) and NASA some sort of BEAM derivative and China a power module, how could the usual delays be mitigated?  Or China could provide a Tiangong class base module and Russia could provide resupply.
China is busy Developing CZ-5 LVs, Russia announced Angara A5V LV with LEO capability of 37.5-38 tones.
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline savuporo

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5152
  • Liked: 1002
  • Likes Given: 342
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #36 on: 04/22/2016 02:04 am »
This news report is not going to lead anywhere. Even if NASA brass spoke about this, Congress is not going to fund a project that requires Russian cooperation under the current climate.

The interesting question is, how could one structure a lunar return program where international collaboration would be very possible and conducive with benefits to every participant, but not a requirement.

It would mean no critical hardware pieces on any critical path, unlike ISS and Orion. Launches commoditized as much as possible - i.e. making sure that everyone in the world with a capable launcher could at least deliver bulk payloads like water, propellant, consumables. Radio relay satellites and lunar surface relays, tracking/ground station coverage as well shared as possible. Obviously international docking adapter standards. Maybe lunar 'pallet' payload landers as well with a standard payload interface. What else ?
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline TrevorMonty

This news report is not going to lead anywhere. Even if NASA brass spoke about this, Congress is not going to fund a project that requires Russian cooperation under the current climate.

Have to agree, especially considering the Russian engine ban is still being debated.

We'll probably see some form of a Lunar space station, likely the DSH with some international help.  However we're more likely to see commercial (i.e. Bigelow most likely) modules versus anything from Russia.  International cooperation would be nice but I see it more as a way of gaining political versus actual technical support.
NASA may favour a USA owned and built DSH, it doesn't have problems with international partners using it and sharing in mission costs. If Russia stick to their new capsule development program they could provide an alternative to Orion by mid 2020s. Between the two vehicles 2 or more manned missions a year could visit DSH. Resupply can be combination of commercial and international partners.

Being able to have crew on two manned missions a year for cost of one SLS launch would be huge boost to HSF BLEO knowledge development.

The international partners also help share additional costs of missions eg provide lander or robot for a lunar sample return.

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13997
  • UK
  • Liked: 3974
  • Likes Given: 220
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #38 on: 04/22/2016 10:18 am »
This news report is not going to lead anywhere. Even if NASA brass spoke about this, Congress is not going to fund a project that requires Russian cooperation under the current climate.

Have to agree, especially considering the Russian engine ban is still being debated.

We'll probably see some form of a Lunar space station, likely the DSH with some international help.  However we're more likely to see commercial (i.e. Bigelow most likely) modules versus anything from Russia.  International cooperation would be nice but I see it more as a way of gaining political versus actual technical support.

Remarkably short-sighted from a political prospective as all that will do is drive the Russians even more into the waiting arms of the Chinese. I prefer ESA's approach which is to rise above such stuff and keep their links open with all sides.

Offline B. Hendrickx

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1382
  • Liked: 1891
  • Likes Given: 67
Re: NASA/ESA/Russia discussing International Lunar Station
« Reply #39 on: 05/25/2016 11:00 pm »

http://ria.ru/science/20160525/1439368078.html

At an international conference on manned spaceflight in Korolyov outside Moscow RKK Energiya's Yuri Makushenko said today that RKK Energiya and NASA have worked out a preliminary concept for a joint lunar orbital station that could be deployed by the end of the 2020s. Agreement has been reached on a "basic orbit" for the station, which will consist of "habitation, energy and node modules" and also transport ships. Makushenko added that the station will become a base for "servicing and repair work, communication and navigation"' and could ultimately be used to launch unmanned missions to the asteroids and Mars.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0