...It leads to looking at issues regarding the air bearing for a starter. We used air bearings on much of the equipment we designed in the semiconductor industry We once designed a flat disk rotational bearing and had issues with it. Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate. We also saw the same effect in air bearing spindles used in dicing saws where the internal air bearing wasn't mated correctly and would lead to rotation in the spindle with out power being applied. It was hard to think of a way we could test these theories as air is hard to see until one of my techs decided to simply put his hand in front of the air flow from the rotational bearing and said he could feel the differences in pressure. The body is sometimes a great detector.This is why I intend as one test to float my device, it's close to being frictionless and only the viscosity of the water needs to be overcome to see movement. No weird air bearing issues.
Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate
There are significant drawbacks with the use ofair bearings. One drawback is the existence ofgravitational torques. The center of mass of thesimulator must be extremely close to the center ofrotation of the bearing to minimize the gravitationaltorque about the center of rotation. Moving the centerof mass toward the center of rotation is referred to as'balancing' the table. The goal of balancing theSSACS is to increase the period of oscillation as far aspossible without causing system instability....The common procedure used to balance airbearingsatellite simulators is known as manualbalancing. This is a time-consuming, iterative processwhere lead weights of varying mass are placed on thesimulator at various locations in an attempt to balancethe table. The process is finalized by carefullyadjusting several strategically placed set screws to• zero-in' the CM to the CR.This manual method of balancing has advantagesand disadvantages. Manual balancing is relativelysimple to conceive and execute. It requires onlypatience and a little skill in weight placement. On theother hand, the amount of time required to balance theSSACS is considerable, often several hours, and theresults can be disappointing. After considerable timespent in the manual balancing process, the CM offset isstill large enough to create oscillations around the CRwith a period of approximately 20 seconds
We now know that the vacuum field is in fact formally necessary for the stability of atoms in quantum theory.[/b] As we saw..., radiation reaction will cause canonical commutators [x, px] to decay to zero unless the fluctuating vacuum field is included, in which case commutators are consistently preserved."Puthoff has a very clear way of explaining things, so does Milonni. I believe this will help most of the people here to understand this, without getting too deep into the Standard Model physics.
Quote from: WarpTech on 06/08/2015 02:39 pmWhen it's turned off, all the energy has to be attenuated and the asymmetry and acceleration persists until all the energy is dissipated into thrust & heat. If the thrust is proportional to the intensity of the microwave energy in the resonator, then the latter could be easily measured and compared to thrust. But IMO the microwave energy level would have dropped to an undetectable level in a very small fraction of a second after power was terminated. OTOH if the acceleration measurement is the result of a thermal heating effect and not reactionless propulsion, it might well have shown the persistance that was recorded.My reading of Shawyer's original paper is that he asserts that radiation pressure will vary with the group velocity of the incident photons. However it is well established that the momentum of a photon is proportional only to its frequency, and SFAICT there are no reports to indicate that microwave frequency is shifted by a change in waveguide diameter. So why would the radiation pressure on the two ends of the resonator be diferent?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure#Radiation_pressure_by_particle_model:_photons
When it's turned off, all the energy has to be attenuated and the asymmetry and acceleration persists until all the energy is dissipated into thrust & heat.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/08/2015 02:07 pm(...)QUESTION: what do others make of the velocity vs. power shown for this test (the only test performed with the EM Drive on an air bearing) ?Does it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)It looks to me after a brief period to charge the Q, as power is being attenuated, the frustum accelerates. As attenuation increases and power drops faster, the acceleration rises. When it's turned off, all the energy has to be attenuated and the asymmetry and acceleration persists until all the energy is dissipated into thrust & heat. Perfect IMO! (But I have not had my coffee yet. )Todd
(...)QUESTION: what do others make of the velocity vs. power shown for this test (the only test performed with the EM Drive on an air bearing) ?Does it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)
Quote from: WarpTech on 06/08/2015 02:39 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/08/2015 02:07 pm(...)QUESTION: what do others make of the velocity vs. power shown for this test (the only test performed with the EM Drive on an air bearing) ?Does it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)It looks to me after a brief period to charge the Q, as power is being attenuated, the frustum accelerates. As attenuation increases and power drops faster, the acceleration rises. When it's turned off, all the energy has to be attenuated and the asymmetry and acceleration persists until all the energy is dissipated into thrust & heat. Perfect IMO! (But I have not had my coffee yet. )ToddSeems like there are undisclosed variables/dynamics within Shawyer's setup. My "kind" interpretation of t=210s to t=255s would be that the power supply and/or amplifier setup has some undisclosed time constants. A less friendly interpretation would be to wonder if non-EM drive factors are contributing to the acceleration (such as the discussed air bearings).The Shawyer graph arbitrarily starts at t=100s, and power applied between t=100s and t=125s corresponds to a period of velocity=0. IMO, not enough information to confirm how much of the control/search/tracking algorithm is in play. My back-of-napkin says the Q=60000 @ 2.4GHz charge/discharge time should be bounded by ~100 microseconds. Only ~44.9999 seconds of uncertainty left to account for....
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/08/2015 02:58 pm...It leads to looking at issues regarding the air bearing for a starter. We used air bearings on much of the equipment we designed in the semiconductor industry We once designed a flat disk rotational bearing and had issues with it. Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate. We also saw the same effect in air bearing spindles used in dicing saws where the internal air bearing wasn't mated correctly and would lead to rotation in the spindle with out power being applied. It was hard to think of a way we could test these theories as air is hard to see until one of my techs decided to simply put his hand in front of the air flow from the rotational bearing and said he could feel the differences in pressure. The body is sometimes a great detector.This is why I intend as one test to float my device, it's close to being frictionless and only the viscosity of the water needs to be overcome to see movement. No weird air bearing issues. This paper compares the air bearing with other methods to simulate weightlessness and concludes that the air bearing is the superior method: http://www.space-electronics.com/Literature/SAWE_Papers/Spherical_Gas_Bearing_Weightlessness.pdfI tried searching for air bearing problems , and disadvantages and I couldn't find much under acceleration problems. Your experience with this case is very valuable:Quote from: SeeShells Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate If this was going on with the Demonstrator test, it would be very difficult to tell what part of the response (if any) is real and what is an experimental artifact.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/08/2015 02:07 pmQuote from: SeeShells on 06/07/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offDoes it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)It leads to looking at issues regarding the air bearing for a starter. We used air bearings on much of the equipment we designed in the semiconductor industry We once designed a flat disk rotational bearing and had issues with it. Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate. We also saw the same effect in air bearing spindles used in dicing saws where the internal air bearing wasn't mated correctly and would lead to rotation in the spindle with out power being applied. It was hard to think of a way we could test these theories as air is hard to see until one of my techs decided to simply put his hand in front of the air flow from the rotational bearing and said he could feel the differences in pressure. The body is sometimes a great detector.This is why I intend as one test to float my device, it's close to being frictionless and only the viscosity of the water needs to be overcome to see movement. No weird air bearing issues.
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/07/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offDoes it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)It leads to looking at issues regarding the air bearing for a starter. We used air bearings on much of the equipment we designed in the semiconductor industry We once designed a flat disk rotational bearing and had issues with it. Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate. We also saw the same effect in air bearing spindles used in dicing saws where the internal air bearing wasn't mated correctly and would lead to rotation in the spindle with out power being applied. It was hard to think of a way we could test these theories as air is hard to see until one of my techs decided to simply put his hand in front of the air flow from the rotational bearing and said he could feel the differences in pressure. The body is sometimes a great detector.This is why I intend as one test to float my device, it's close to being frictionless and only the viscosity of the water needs to be overcome to see movement. No weird air bearing issues.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offDoes it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)It leads to looking at issues regarding the air bearing for a starter. We used air bearings on much of the equipment we designed in the semiconductor industry We once designed a flat disk rotational bearing and had issues with it. Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate. We also saw the same effect in air bearing spindles used in dicing saws where the internal air bearing wasn't mated correctly and would lead to rotation in the spindle with out power being applied. It was hard to think of a way we could test these theories as air is hard to see until one of my techs decided to simply put his hand in front of the air flow from the rotational bearing and said he could feel the differences in pressure. The body is sometimes a great detector.This is why I intend as one test to float my device, it's close to being frictionless and only the viscosity of the water needs to be overcome to see movement. No weird air bearing issues.
Velocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offDoes it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/08/2015 02:58 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/08/2015 02:07 pmQuote from: SeeShells on 06/07/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offDoes it make sense that "coasting period" with NO power can translate into continued acceleration (albeit at a slower rate of acceleration ?)It leads to looking at issues regarding the air bearing for a starter. We used air bearings on much of the equipment we designed in the semiconductor industry We once designed a flat disk rotational bearing and had issues with it. Once it started to move it tended to want to continue moving and sometimes accelerating. We finally related it to the way the pressure waves were traveling between the plates creating a pattern that imparted movement to the top floating plate. We also saw the same effect in air bearing spindles used in dicing saws where the internal air bearing wasn't mated correctly and would lead to rotation in the spindle with out power being applied. It was hard to think of a way we could test these theories as air is hard to see until one of my techs decided to simply put his hand in front of the air flow from the rotational bearing and said he could feel the differences in pressure. The body is sometimes a great detector.This is why I intend as one test to float my device, it's close to being frictionless and only the viscosity of the water needs to be overcome to see movement. No weird air bearing issues. Excellent points all and based on hard experience. It's also my view. Air bearings are notoriously finnicky and can produce spurious dynamic effects with just a little perturbation. For that reason I take these experimental results of Shawyer with a huge pinch of salt. I certainly wouldn't even begin to try and evince any physics from them.
It's my understanding that the goalis to measure force. Was there some reason for not using a spring mounting and just measuring displacement?
The engine was tested in a large static test rigemploying a calibrated composite balance tomeasure thrust in both vertical and horizontaldirections. A total of 134 test runs were carriedout over the full performance envelope.Fig 7 gives test results for 3 Vertical Thrusttest runs under the same input and tunerconditions but for thrust vectors in the Up,Down and Horizontal directions. This clearlyillustrates the loss of measured weight for theUp vector, the increase in measured weight forthe Down vector, and a mean weight changeclose to zero, for the horizontal vector. Theseearly comparative tests yielded specific thrustsaround 80mN/kW.
Quote from: WarpTech on 06/08/2015 04:37 am...It is a perplexing problem and obviously not a realistic one, once you consider the power source is external and mass will increase indefinitely. I wish you nothing but success in refining your theory into something wonderful. You have my respect for the attempt! But I cannot say in all honesty that your theory in its current form commands my respect. I'm pleased you see the criticisms for what they are intended to be. No hard feelings, I hope.
...It is a perplexing problem and obviously not a realistic one, once you consider the power source is external and mass will increase indefinitely.
My comment is that dv/dt = 0 for a photon
Quote from: deltaMass on 06/08/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: SeeShells on 06/08/2015 02:58 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/08/2015 02:07 pmQuote from: SeeShells on 06/07/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offAll good points. Perhaps the system had velocity at T=0 and the power-on condition temporarily halted it. Too much chart snipping in the time domain IYAM. He left himself wide open for critique.I would have done the test differently. Instead of putting all the weight onto a air bearing I would have suspended from the ceiling from the center point of the test jig. As even a small air bearing would have provided enough air bearing surface and balancing it out. Eliminate a lot of potential errors.
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/08/2015 02:58 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/08/2015 02:07 pmQuote from: SeeShells on 06/07/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offAll good points. Perhaps the system had velocity at T=0 and the power-on condition temporarily halted it. Too much chart snipping in the time domain IYAM. He left himself wide open for critique.I would have done the test differently. Instead of putting all the weight onto a air bearing I would have suspended from the ceiling from the center point of the test jig. As even a small air bearing would have provided enough air bearing surface and balancing it out. Eliminate a lot of potential errors.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/08/2015 02:07 pmQuote from: SeeShells on 06/07/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offAll good points. Perhaps the system had velocity at T=0 and the power-on condition temporarily halted it. Too much chart snipping in the time domain IYAM. He left himself wide open for critique.I would have done the test differently. Instead of putting all the weight onto a air bearing I would have suspended from the ceiling from the center point of the test jig. As even a small air bearing would have provided enough air bearing surface and balancing it out. Eliminate a lot of potential errors.
Quote from: SeeShells on 06/07/2015 05:29 pmQuote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offAll good points. Perhaps the system had velocity at T=0 and the power-on condition temporarily halted it. Too much chart snipping in the time domain IYAM. He left himself wide open for critique.I would have done the test differently. Instead of putting all the weight onto a air bearing I would have suspended from the ceiling from the center point of the test jig. As even a small air bearing would have provided enough air bearing surface and balancing it out. Eliminate a lot of potential errors.
Quote from: Rodal on 06/07/2015 04:12 pmVelocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offAll good points. Perhaps the system had velocity at T=0 and the power-on condition temporarily halted it. Too much chart snipping in the time domain IYAM. He left himself wide open for critique.I would have done the test differently. Instead of putting all the weight onto a air bearing I would have suspended from the ceiling from the center point of the test jig. As even a small air bearing would have provided enough air bearing surface and balancing it out. Eliminate a lot of potential errors.
Velocity = roughly constant from t=0 to t=2 sec, and it becomes roughly zero after 2 sec until power is turned offAll good points. Perhaps the system had velocity at T=0 and the power-on condition temporarily halted it. Too much chart snipping in the time domain IYAM. He left himself wide open for critique.
We show clearly also how the Orbital Angular Momentum(OAM) associated with a helical wavefront induces rotation of vector fields along the optic axis of a focusing lens and confirmed by the observed surface micro-structures
These results highlight the complexity of the focal electric fields and the remarkable effect of the presence of a vortex phase on the vector beams which leads to rotation of the vector fields around the focal plane and inversion of the spiral direction, which was quite unexpected.
Quote from: deltaMass on 06/08/2015 05:54 pmMy comment is that dv/dt = 0 for a photonIt's not a photon, it's a Dirac particle. dv/dt is the acceleration of the group velocity of the particle.