Author Topic: EM Drive Developments Thread 1  (Read 1472579 times)

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2900 on: 11/03/2014 06:54 pm »
I'm only writing this for those who may appreciate a clarification on Donaire's formulation ( http://qvg2013.sciencesconf.org/conference/qvg2013/program/Donaire_qvg2013.pdf ).


Donaire explcitly requires a helical (chiral) anisotropic third order tensor (epsilon ijk) as shown in this attachment:

gamma is an antisymmetric T-P odd tensor resulting from the anisotropic product of epsilon ijk with the magnetic field B

(The word helical of course has multiple connotations, and this clarification only refers to how Donaire uses it)

helical:

The Oracle (gif above) points you in the right direction, but doesn't light the way........As I stated. Helicity and chirality are not the same thing. Please take the time to research it. As I have.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2014 06:57 pm by Mulletron »
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Offline Ron Stahl

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2901 on: 11/03/2014 06:57 pm »
I wasn't even responding to you.  Do you have these suspicions often about people talking about you behind your back?  ;)

Um no, we've been here before. You refute every idea that isn't Woodward's. Then plug his book.
I am most familiar with Woodward's work because I dispensed with all the competition almost 10 years ago for good reasons.  When someone makes a claim about Woodward or anyone else's work that I know is false, I simply post about it.  It was in the context of the discussion.  And I did not plug his book.

BTW, have you read it?   ;D

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2902 on: 11/03/2014 07:06 pm »
I wasn't even responding to you.  Do you have these suspicions often about people talking about you behind your back?  ;)

Um no, we've been here before. You refute every idea that isn't Woodward's. Then plug his book.
I am most familiar with Woodward's work because I dispensed with all the competition almost 10 years ago for good reasons.  When someone makes a claim about Woodward or anyone else's work that I know is false, I simply post about it.  It was in the context of the discussion.  And I did not plug his book.

BTW, have you read it?   ;D

Why haven't you dispensed with Woodward's?

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2903 on: 11/03/2014 07:12 pm »
I'm only writing this for those who may appreciate a clarification on Donaire's formulation ( http://qvg2013.sciencesconf.org/conference/qvg2013/program/Donaire_qvg2013.pdf ).


Donaire explcitly requires a helical (chiral) anisotropic third order tensor (epsilon ijk) as shown in this attachment:

gamma is an antisymmetric T-P odd tensor resulting from the product of (helically anisotropic) epsilon ijk with the magnetic field B

(The word helical of course has multiple connotations, and this clarification only refers to how Donaire uses it)

helical:



Now, my understanding is the following: if a polymer material has chiral molecule chains, if the chains are like a "spaghetti" in random directions as usual isotropic polymers are (for example as a result of injection molding) , the chiral effect will be nullified by the random orientation of the polymer chain spaghetti.

For the Donaire effect to be mutually self-reinforcing and not self-cancelling, one needs the overall material to have a helical anisotropy.


Nice! 

Spectral non-reciprocity is needed: Yes, that is the condition you will get from the "coffee can" resonator in an AFR.

From what I can gather reading the rest and trying to apply it to the cavity, it should be treated as a single quantum "oscillator" w/ the conduction electron bands providing the Doppler shift required.

Spectral non-reciprocity is as far as I've gotten on a GR basis.

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2904 on: 11/03/2014 07:17 pm »
On a potentially relevant tangent, fermilab has figured out a new, less expensive way to generate high power, tightly controlled RF pulses, using a magnetron in a superconducting cavity.  http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/archive/archive_2014/today14-11-03.html
« Last Edit: 11/03/2014 07:19 pm by RotoSequence »

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2905 on: 11/03/2014 07:28 pm »
Moderators. Our discussions get intense at times, yet we remain respectful. Please bear with us. We're making progress. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In the end, all of us here are after the same thing. A way forward.....to advance knowledge, thus humanity if anything comes of this. The only way forward is the truth. We each have our own ideas of what the truth is. The real truth is somewhere in the middle, past egos and pet ideas, somewhere in there is the way forward.
And I can feel the change in the wind right now - Rod Stewart

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2906 on: 11/03/2014 07:30 pm »
I'm only writing this for those who may appreciate a clarification on Donaire's formulation ( http://qvg2013.sciencesconf.org/conference/qvg2013/program/Donaire_qvg2013.pdf ).


Donaire explcitly requires a helical (chiral) anisotropic third order tensor (epsilon ijk) as shown in this attachment:

gamma is an antisymmetric T-P odd tensor resulting from the product of (helically anisotropic) epsilon ijk with the magnetic field B

(The word helical of course has multiple connotations, and this clarification only refers to how Donaire uses it)

helical:



Now, my understanding is the following: if a polymer material has chiral molecule chains, if the chains are like a "spaghetti" in random directions as usual isotropic polymers are (for example as a result of injection molding) , the chiral effect will be nullified by the random orientation of the polymer chain spaghetti.

For the Donaire effect to be mutually self-reinforcing and not self-cancelling, one needs the overall material to have a helical anisotropy.


Nice! 

Spectral non-reciprocity is needed: Yes, that is the condition you will get from the "coffee can" resonator in an AFR.

From what I can gather reading the rest and trying to apply it to the cavity, it should be treated as a single quantum "oscillator" w/ the conduction electron bands providing the Doppler shift required.

Spectral non-reciprocity is as far as I've gotten on a GR basis.

Can you break down what your interpretation of non-reciprocity means. Sounds like broken symmetry to me but I wasn't sure. I didn't quite get what they were meaning by that. Also what is an AFR? There is a lot in that presentation that I didn't quite understand.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2014 07:31 pm by Mulletron »
And I can feel the change in the wind right now - Rod Stewart

Offline Notsosureofit

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2907 on: 11/03/2014 07:36 pm »
I'm only writing this for those who may appreciate a clarification on Donaire's formulation ( http://qvg2013.sciencesconf.org/conference/qvg2013/program/Donaire_qvg2013.pdf ).


Donaire explcitly requires a helical (chiral) anisotropic third order tensor (epsilon ijk) as shown in this attachment:

gamma is an antisymmetric T-P odd tensor resulting from the product of (helically anisotropic) epsilon ijk with the magnetic field B

(The word helical of course has multiple connotations, and this clarification only refers to how Donaire uses it)

helical:



Now, my understanding is the following: if a polymer material has chiral molecule chains, if the chains are like a "spaghetti" in random directions as usual isotropic polymers are (for example as a result of injection molding) , the chiral effect will be nullified by the random orientation of the polymer chain spaghetti.

For the Donaire effect to be mutually self-reinforcing and not self-cancelling, one needs the overall material to have a helical anisotropy.


Nice! 

Spectral non-reciprocity is needed: Yes, that is the condition you will get from the "coffee can" resonator in an AFR.

From what I can gather reading the rest and trying to apply it to the cavity, it should be treated as a single quantum "oscillator" w/ the conduction electron bands providing the Doppler shift required.

Spectral non-reciprocity is as far as I've gotten on a GR basis.

Can you break down what your interpretation of non-reciprocity means. Sounds like broken symmetry to me but I wasn't sure. I didn't quite get what they were meaning by that. Also what is an AFR? There is a lot in that presentation that I didn't quite understand.

no momentum transfer w/o a frequency change

Accelerating frame of reference

Offline IslandPlaya

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2908 on: 11/03/2014 07:37 pm »
With respect guys.
Like my pc this thread needs to restart now

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2909 on: 11/03/2014 07:39 pm »
I wasn't even responding to you.  Do you have these suspicions often about people talking about you behind your back?  ;)

Um no, we've been here before. You refute every idea that isn't Woodward's. Then plug his book.
I am most familiar with Woodward's work because I dispensed with all the competition almost 10 years ago for good reasons.  When someone makes a claim about Woodward or anyone else's work that I know is false, I simply post about it.  It was in the context of the discussion.  And I did not plug his book.

BTW, have you read it?   ;D

Woodward's work is very closely related with EMdrive (those with dielectrics inserted). The theory presented by the original inventors describing the effects diverge. They are cousins. The same kind of relation as with jet engines and rockets. Similar but not the same.
And I can feel the change in the wind right now - Rod Stewart

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2910 on: 11/03/2014 07:44 pm »
With respect guys.
Like my pc this thread needs to restart now

Good idea. As it takes me 10 times to read a paper before I finally get it.....Time to start over.

I just got word that NASA has tested an RF test article that seems to exhibit an "anomalous thrust."

http://www.libertariannews.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/AnomalousThrustProductionFromanRFTestDevice-BradyEtAl.pdf

Now this is interesting stuff!

« Last Edit: 11/03/2014 07:45 pm by Mulletron »
And I can feel the change in the wind right now - Rod Stewart

Offline IslandPlaya

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2911 on: 11/03/2014 07:46 pm »
Wow! New thread needed...

Offline Mulletron

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2912 on: 11/03/2014 07:59 pm »
I'm only writing this for those who may appreciate a clarification on Donaire's formulation ( http://qvg2013.sciencesconf.org/conference/qvg2013/program/Donaire_qvg2013.pdf ).


Donaire explcitly requires a helical (chiral) anisotropic third order tensor (epsilon ijk) as shown in this attachment:

gamma is an antisymmetric T-P odd tensor resulting from the product of (helically anisotropic) epsilon ijk with the magnetic field B

(The word helical of course has multiple connotations, and this clarification only refers to how Donaire uses it)

helical:



Now, my understanding is the following: if a polymer material has chiral molecule chains, if the chains are like a "spaghetti" in random directions as usual isotropic polymers are (for example as a result of injection molding) , the chiral effect will be nullified by the random orientation of the polymer chain spaghetti.

For the Donaire effect to be mutually self-reinforcing and not self-cancelling, one needs the overall material to have a helical anisotropy.


Nice! 

Spectral non-reciprocity is needed: Yes, that is the condition you will get from the "coffee can" resonator in an AFR.

From what I can gather reading the rest and trying to apply it to the cavity, it should be treated as a single quantum "oscillator" w/ the conduction electron bands providing the Doppler shift required.

Spectral non-reciprocity is as far as I've gotten on a GR basis.

Can you break down what your interpretation of non-reciprocity means. Sounds like broken symmetry to me but I wasn't sure. I didn't quite get what they were meaning by that. Also what is an AFR? There is a lot in that presentation that I didn't quite understand.

no momentum transfer w/o a frequency change

Accelerating frame of reference

Want to throw any more details at that? I need help. I am not a smart man......(from Dumb and Dumber and Forrest Gump). My knowledge of the term reciprocity is, "If you obey my rules, I'll obey your rules."
And I can feel the change in the wind right now - Rod Stewart

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2913 on: 11/03/2014 08:01 pm »
You know, that looks an awfully lot like orbital angular momentum.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/29814160_Light_with_a_twist_in_its_tail
« Last Edit: 11/03/2014 08:17 pm by aero »
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Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2914 on: 11/03/2014 08:19 pm »
You know, that looks an awfully lot like orbital angular momentum.



That long URL is breaking the formatting.

Please replace with this short URL

http://goo.gl/WCzDMw

for the same item

Thanks

Like that?
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2915 on: 11/03/2014 09:12 pm »
I'm only writing this for those who may appreciate a clarification on Donaire's formulation ( http://qvg2013.sciencesconf.org/conference/qvg2013/program/Donaire_qvg2013.pdf ).


Donaire explcitly requires a helical (chiral) anisotropic third order tensor (epsilon ijk) as shown in this attachment:

gamma is an antisymmetric T-P odd tensor resulting from the product of (helically anisotropic) epsilon ijk with the magnetic field B

(The word helical of course has multiple connotations, and this clarification only refers to how Donaire uses it)

helical:



Now, my understanding is the following: if a polymer material has chiral molecule chains, if the chains are like a "spaghetti" in random directions as usual isotropic polymers are (for example as a result of injection molding) , the chiral effect will be nullified by the random orientation of the polymer chain spaghetti.

For the Donaire effect to be mutually self-reinforcing and not self-cancelling, one needs the overall material to have a helical anisotropy.


Yes a polarized lens is a good analogy for illustration of a commonly known effect [although like every analogy never a substitute for the real thing] why the material needs to be polarized throughout to be effective.  A polarized material is anisotropic: it has different properties along different material axes. It has the long-chain molecules aligned in the same direction (perpendicular to the polarization axis).  During manufacture the long-chain molecules are stretched to align them in a particular direction, this direction is perpendicular to the polarization axis. The electromagnetic vibrations parallel to the alignment of the long-chain molecules are absorbed. Only EM vibrations perpendicular to the  the alignment of the long-chain molecules pass through.

We all know we cannot use a copper metal as a Polaroid lens, neither can we use an isotropic sheet of Teflon or Polyethylene as a Polaroid lens.  And not every polymer lens is a polarized lens: to achieve polarization one has to have a suitable material that can be polarized and then utilize a suitable means of manufacture that will achieve the polarization.

One needs to have the whole polymer lens oriented along the same axis to achieve polarization.  Similarly with the proposed chirality of Donaire: the whole dielectric material would have to have chirality oriented in the same direction,and to achieve this, one has to use a suitable means of manufacture (not just injection molding into a mold).  Using a material with chiral polymer chains that are (as usual in polymers) like a random spaghetti, would be like having a lens with the chains oriented in random orientations: it could not work as intended, and neither can the randomly oriented chiral material.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2014 09:48 pm by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2916 on: 11/03/2014 11:16 pm »
Next batch of scraped data from figure 19 page 15 of "anomalous thrust..." from Brady et al. The top (result1.txt) and middle (result2.txt) graphs are scraped.

Same caveats as previously posted. For first curve (top figure 19) I removed the (non existent) flat last sampled data of the previous version to avoid artefacts when analysing with filters.

Each line of those files is the value in µN at each .1 s interval (linearly interpolated from manual reconstruction). The vertical scale were roughly given by the calibration pulses at about 30µN (expect no more than 5% precision). Absolute values are arbitrary (because of the drifting baseline). Horizontal scale given by the indication of 196 s for the whole display graph window of the pictures.

Will proceed with other graphs when time permits. Will post attempts at original signal reconstruction : thrust(t) while what we see is only balance displacement(t). Since the balance is underdamped, a lot can hide behind those oscillations and drifts in position.

Frobnicated Top of Fig. 19 page 15 of anomalous (Mean and Linear Least Squares Fit)


Autocorrelation of Top of Fig. 19 page 15 (from FFT) on raw data detrended by Mean (Blue)

Autocorrelation of Top of Fig. 19 page 15 (from FFT) on raw data detrended by Linear LS (Red)


Power Spectral Density (from FFT)  on raw data detrended by Linear LS (Red)

horizontal scale = frequency(Hz) * 0.1 * (DataLength/2) = frequency(hz)*94.6

Peaks         Period (seconds)
3                 1/(3/(94.6))  = 31.53 s   Pulse period
5                 1/(5/(94.6))  = 18.92 s   4*Pendulum Period
7                 1/(7/(94.6))  = 13.51 s
10               1/(10/(94.6))  = 9.46 s   2*Pendulum Period
15               1/(15/(94.6))  = 6.31 s   <---- This unidentified frequency appears strongly on both Top and Middle
18               1/(18/(94.6))  = 5.26 s
20               1/(20/(94.6))  = 4.73 s    Pendulum Period
25               1/(25/(94.6))  = 3.78 s
41               1/(41/(94.6))  = 2.31 s    1/2 Pendulum Period
« Last Edit: 11/05/2014 04:59 pm by Rodal »

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2917 on: 11/03/2014 11:35 pm »
I had the thought a long time ago that the measured thrust might have to do with photon angular momentum. That's why I knew where to find the paper I linked above.

It occurs to me now that this phenomenon might hint at an explanation of the difference in thrust between Brady a" and Brady b" which  differ in measured force, but otherwise very little.
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Offline Rodal

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2918 on: 11/03/2014 11:53 pm »
Well Brady "A" and Brady "B" truncated cone results can be explained by drifting frequency away from amplitude due to the extremely small bandwidth associated with high Q and their lack of suitable equipment as proposed by R. Ludwick

Offline aero

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Re: EM Drive Developments
« Reply #2919 on: 11/04/2014 05:01 am »
Well Brady "A" and Brady "B" truncated cone results can be explained by drifting frequency away from amplitude due to the extremely small bandwidth associated with high Q and their lack of suitable equipment as proposed by R. Ludwick

That means, then that the outlier Bradly b" relative to Bradly a" is explained by equipment limitations. That explains the relationship, one relative to the other but does not address the fundamental forces. Still, it does rule out drawing conclusions relying on that difference because there is no substantive information contained within that difference.
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