Author Topic: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar  (Read 19699 times)

Online Blackstar

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Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« on: 03/09/2009 02:26 pm »
I'm working with somebody on something related to MOL and did a lot of scanning.  Thought I would share the scans.

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #1 on: 03/09/2009 02:26 pm »

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #2 on: 03/09/2009 02:27 pm »

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #3 on: 03/09/2009 02:27 pm »

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #4 on: 03/09/2009 04:00 pm »
I've never seen a formal report attached to this image.  I think it was mostly notional and not the result of any detailed study of the kinds of military operations a Gemini could perform.  There's a lot of reasons why you would not want to pack all of this stuff onto a single spacecraft.

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #5 on: 03/09/2009 04:26 pm »
These are great.  Lots of interesting bits in here. One thing I saw, on p. 18 of the first document ("Gemini B MOL Schematics"), the aft EVA airlock has bulges labeled "Escape Capsule" - perhaps I'm showing my MOL-ignorance, but does anyone know what that was all about?
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Offline mike robel

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #6 on: 03/09/2009 10:50 pm »
Very nice find.  Thanks very much

Offline Apolloman

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #7 on: 03/10/2009 03:02 pm »
Nice... Thank
Paul Cultrera
webmaster du site http://www.de-la-terre-a-la-lune.com/
consacré au programme Apollo.

Le savoir est un trésor à partager avec tout le monde...

Offline Danderman

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #8 on: 03/10/2009 03:52 pm »
These are great.  Lots of interesting bits in here. One thing I saw, on p. 18 of the first document ("Gemini B MOL Schematics"), the aft EVA airlock has bulges labeled "Escape Capsule" - perhaps I'm showing my MOL-ignorance, but does anyone know what that was all about?

I was wondering that too. My guess is that its a small capsule for return of film to Earth during the mission.

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #9 on: 03/10/2009 05:13 pm »
These are great.  Lots of interesting bits in here. One thing I saw, on p. 18 of the first document ("Gemini B MOL Schematics"), the aft EVA airlock has bulges labeled "Escape Capsule" - perhaps I'm showing my MOL-ignorance, but does anyone know what that was all about?

I was wondering that too. My guess is that its a small capsule for return of film to Earth during the mission.


That was actually my guess too, especially since calling them "Escape Capsules" made a nice cover for the true mission as manned spysat. 
« Last Edit: 03/10/2009 05:14 pm by Herb Schaltegger »
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Offline nooneofconsequence

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #10 on: 03/10/2009 08:26 pm »
Brings back memories. Now have to go through my Dad's attic and dig up the photo's of the MOL mockup, which was located at GE's Valley Forge facility.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato

Offline Danderman

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #11 on: 12/10/2009 07:10 am »
Here is an 18 meg file from NTRS concerning "MORL - Gemini" Volume 2:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19750069371_1975069371.pdf

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #12 on: 12/11/2009 05:03 pm »
As I understand it, MORL was NASA's space station idea from around 1963-1965.  They gave up on that in favor of the Apollo Applications Program and the Wet Workshop concept.  That did not prevent the MOL (not MORL) people from trying to pitch a MOL-like vehicle to NASA in the latter 1960s.

NASA had an MORL guy, Mike Yarymovych, who was sent to USAF to help them with MOL.  He was essentially on detail to USAF to return the USAF favor of helping with Apollo.  Yarymovych was supposed to bring NASA human spaceflight experience to the MOL program.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #13 on: 12/11/2009 05:39 pm »
I always wondered how they accomplished the seal between the transfer tunnel and heat shield.
It's a lot simpler then I though it was as I figured the heat shield would not have been able to form a gas tight seal.
But heat shields back then were essentially a material similar to bowling balls right?

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #14 on: 12/11/2009 07:42 pm »
Did they have to form a seal between it and the heat shield?  I would assume that they would open the hatch and then have a small tunnel that would extend and connect.  But I haven't thought about this before.  Does anybody know the answer?

Offline js117

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #15 on: 12/11/2009 11:23 pm »
I always liked the Mol program.
Were can I get the  NTRS concerning "MORL - Gemini" Volume 1 pdf.


Offline Danderman

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Offline Proponent

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #17 on: 12/12/2009 05:24 am »
Here are two more circumlunar Gemini docs.  The first is a file containing parts of reports, memos, a newspaper clipping and letters from 1961 to 1965. 

The second is a single memo dated 1964 exploring both direct and EOR approaches using a variety of launch vehicles and upper stages.  Some possibilities involved strapping small SRBs onto the Titan II.

[The first PDF actually contains a portion of the second; is there free a tool with which one can chop pages off of PDFs?]
« Last Edit: 12/12/2009 05:29 am by Proponent »

Offline js117

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #18 on: 12/12/2009 03:37 pm »
Thanks For the articles Blackstar and others.
Open office 3 by sun  is free and has a pdf editer in it.
I don't know how good.

Offline MarsMethanogen

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #19 on: 12/15/2009 09:01 pm »
Thanks, Blackstar.  Gemini literature is relatively more reclusive to come by.  Regarding the .pdf files in Entry 2, the first one only goes to page 6-17.  Any idea what happened?  In trying to open or save the second file to another location, both gave me failure messages. 

Offline MarsMethanogen

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #20 on: 12/15/2009 09:07 pm »
I've never seen a formal report attached to this image.  I think it was mostly notional and not the result of any detailed study of the kinds of military operations a Gemini could perform.  There's a lot of reasons why you would not want to pack all of this stuff onto a single spacecraft.
What are "Negation Missiles"?

Offline simonbp

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #21 on: 12/16/2009 05:21 am »
What are "Negation Missiles"?

Exactly what you think they are, Mr. Bond. Mu-ha-ha-ha! (Strokes cat, smooths grey tunic)

Suffice to say, it doesn't take much of a hit to "negate" a fragile spy sat. Especially when they have big bulbous reentry vehicles...

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #22 on: 12/16/2009 02:51 pm »
There's a lot of Gemini documents at the University of Houston Clear Lake document collection.  There's also a lot at the Fort Worth National Archives and Records Administration facility.  But it is all NASA stuff, not anything on the military.  There's a ton of Gemini MOL stuff at Maxwell AFB in the historical collection there, but it is mostly memos and letters, not reports, and it only really covers 1964.  After that, MOL got very classified.

Military Gemini always occupied an awkward place.  It started out as a way to demonstrate that there was a manned military space mission.  But that was expensive.  There were also people pushing to use astronauts in a military space mission, even though there was no clear use for them.  These two competing requirements kept butting into each other, and MOL kept getting delayed and costing more until the point where it got killed.

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #23 on: 12/16/2009 03:07 pm »
I'd just add that I think that at both UHCL and NARA Fort Worth there are at least some documents on civilian space stations, like the MORL, using MOL.  And I know that there are some reports on MOL circumlunar mission proposals.

On the latter subject, the documents also include at least 1-2 memos from senior NASA managers explaining why Gemini circumlunar was a bad idea.  They really hated it and wanted those proposals (some of which came from Gemini contractors) shut down.  The argument was that the country had limited manpower to staff the Apollo program, and creating a separate Gemini lunar program would dilute the talent pool.  It would not be possible to have people manage/work on Gemini on Monday and Tuesday and then Apollo the rest of the week.  So rather than Gemini working as an "interim" lunar program, or an insurance program in case Apollo ran into trouble, they believed that Gemini circumlunar would actually _hurt_ Apollo.

The basic argument was that once you pick a method of doing something (like going to the Moon) you need to stick with it.  If you keep changing your mind, you create big problems.  You can see similar arguments today.

Offline Proponent

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #24 on: 12/16/2009 05:02 pm »
The 16th page of the Hammersmith PDF posted above discusses lunar Gemini flights with the Saturn IB plus a third stage.  In particular, it says that just about any hydrogen upper stage ever proposed for the Saturn IB would do: Centaur, S-V, S-VI, MMM, High-Energy SM.  We all know what a Centaur is, and I presume the S-V is the S-V stage originally proposed for the Saturn C-1, i.e., essentially a Centaur.  But what's an S-VI?  An MMM?  And is there any info out there somewhere about the high-energy SM?

Offline bad_astra

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #25 on: 12/16/2009 05:10 pm »
But if, for sake of argument, circumulnar Gemini had been kept as a possibility, by the time Apollo was out of money, a lesser but still existant manned deep space program could have been kept, and we wouldn't have been out of the space flight business for years.
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #26 on: 12/16/2009 06:55 pm »
But if, for sake of argument, circumulnar Gemini had been kept as a possibility, by the time Apollo was out of money, a lesser but still existant manned deep space program could have been kept, and we wouldn't have been out of the space flight business for years.

Maybe, but the other way around: cut Apollo budget in 1962, and go the "cheap" way - 2*Saturn C3 > S-IV  + Gemini lunar lander.
Han shot first and Gwynne Shotwell !

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #27 on: 12/17/2009 03:36 pm »
That's based on the assumption that the Gemini lunar lander would have worked.  When we consider how difficult it was to build the LM, and how they had to work really hard to bring the mass down, it's hard to see how it would not have been really difficult to get a Gemini lunar lander to work.  Gemini was not designed to be a super lightweight vehicle.

This is the classic problem that projects that exist on only a few pieces of paper always look great, but real spacecraft require tremendous amounts of work.  And paper spacecraft always get harder and more challenging once people are assigned to turn them into reality.

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #28 on: 01/23/2010 03:12 pm »
Somebody posted this to another site and I think it's rather interesting (to me anyway).  I was not sure what thread to post it to here (there are at least three older MOL threads on NSF).

This is an artist illustration of Lockheed's proposal for MOL.  It is possible--I'm not sure--that this was their proposal for MODS (Military Orbital Development Station).  MODS was a study from around 1962-1963, and MOL was started in late 1963.

Lockheed did not win the MOL contract.  However, a couple of interesting things here are that this shows an observation spacecraft--i.e., it is intended for reconnaissance--and it also shows the vertical orientation with the rear of the spacecraft pointed down toward Earth.  I have conflicting information on how the actual MOL vehicle would have been oriented: one source says horizontal, another says vertical.  Unfortunately, neither source has been able to elaborate (one cannot because he doesn't know anything more, and the other would not respond to my questions).  At the very least, this concept art for a losing proposal demonstrates that the horizontal orientation was possible.

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #29 on: 02/01/2010 03:03 pm »

Online Blackstar

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Re: Gemini for MOL and Circumlunar
« Reply #30 on: 03/14/2022 03:10 pm »
For completeness, here's another scan.

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