Author Topic: The future of propulsion: where do new ideas fit in to constellation?  (Read 9138 times)

Offline FinalFrontier

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Starting this thread for discussion on where new propulsion systems like the planned VX200 plasma rocket system by astrium corp, for example,  may fit in to constellation (assuming that constellation is funded).
« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 08:17 pm by FinalFrontier »
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Ideally you would want to have:
1. A reliable, fully tested and tried system
2. A system capable of handling heavy loads
3. A system that could fire for long periods of time without stopping
4. A system that used as little propellant and electricty as possible with greatest thrust possible.
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Offline Jim

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

SRB's, RS-68, J-2X, RL-10, AJ-10

Offline dad2059

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Ideally you would want to have:
1. A reliable, fully tested and tried system
2. A system capable of handling heavy loads
3. A system that could fire for long periods of time without stopping
4. A system that used as little propellant and electricty as possible with greatest thrust possible.

I don't think we'll ever see any Constellation component fitted with the "Chang Drive" (if you mean VASIMR), but quite possibly a Moon-Earth tug type vehicle.

The ISS is supposed to try out a small version of it in 2012/2013.
NASA needs some good ol' fashioned 'singularity tech'

Offline robertross

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

RS-68, J-2X

Isn't that jumping the gun a little?? Ares V is still up in the air I mean...

It might be 'baselined' but the current RS-68 config doesn't work (due to base heating).

Offline Jorge

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

RS-68, J-2X

Isn't that jumping the gun a little?? Ares V is still up in the air I mean...

It might be 'baselined' but the current RS-68 config doesn't work (due to base heating).

In that case the engine would still be derived from an existing one (either RS-68 or SSME).
JRF

Offline marsavian

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

RS-68, J-2X

Isn't that jumping the gun a little?? Ares V is still up in the air I mean...

It might be 'baselined' but the current RS-68 config doesn't work (due to base heating).

This has not been confirmed by NASA ... ever.

Offline robertross

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

RS-68, J-2X

Isn't that jumping the gun a little?? Ares V is still up in the air I mean...

It might be 'baselined' but the current RS-68 config doesn't work (due to base heating).

In that case the engine would still be derived from an existing one (either RS-68 or SSME).

Yes, that's my point. SSME isn't on the list, so Jim's list isn't exactly 'decided' for Ares V.

Offline robertross

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

RS-68, J-2X

Isn't that jumping the gun a little?? Ares V is still up in the air I mean...

It might be 'baselined' but the current RS-68 config doesn't work (due to base heating).

This has not been confirmed by NASA ... ever.

Yes, and like so many things never confirmed by NASA, I too rely on Chris' sources & NSF for the best information around. ALl signs point to YES, base heating is a problem for the non-regen RS-68, which is the PoR.

Offline marsavian

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

RS-68, J-2X

Isn't that jumping the gun a little?? Ares V is still up in the air I mean...

It might be 'baselined' but the current RS-68 config doesn't work (due to base heating).

This has not been confirmed by NASA ... ever.

Yes, and like so many things never confirmed by NASA, I too rely on Chris' sources & NSF for the best information around. ALl signs point to YES, base heating is a problem for the non-regen RS-68, which is the PoR.

A problem and not working are not the same thing.

Offline Jorge

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Constellation has all its propulsion needs decided.

RS-68, J-2X

Isn't that jumping the gun a little?? Ares V is still up in the air I mean...

It might be 'baselined' but the current RS-68 config doesn't work (due to base heating).

In that case the engine would still be derived from an existing one (either RS-68 or SSME).

Yes, that's my point. SSME isn't on the list, so Jim's list isn't exactly 'decided' for Ares V.

Read literally, you're right, but in the context of the original question, he's correct. Even if Ares V survives and needs different engines, there is no chance that "new" propulsion (in the sense that the original questioner meant) will be chosen; it will be a derivative of an existing engine.
JRF

Offline robertross

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A problem and not working are not the same thing.

And the solution?

1) Modified engine
2) New engine

Hence my point for Jim's post jumping the gun; it was an absolute. It is NOT 'carved in stone' yet.

If they change rockets now, is it still considered Constellation? If they select & call Jupiter an Ares IV and make it part of Constellation, could there not be a change in engines?

Offline marsavian

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A problem and not working are not the same thing.

And the solution?

1) Modified engine
2) New engine

Hence my point for Jim's post jumping the gun; it was an absolute. It is NOT 'carved in stone' yet.

If they change rockets now, is it still considered Constellation? If they select & call Jupiter an Ares IV and make it part of Constellation, could there not be a change in engines?

No.

You are still assuming the current RS-68s won't work when it is still a work in progress like TO ...

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2008/12/ssme-ares-v-undergoes-evaluation-potential-switch/

Offline FinalFrontier

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A problem and not working are not the same thing.

And the solution?

1) Modified engine
2) New engine

Hence my point for Jim's post jumping the gun; it was an absolute. It is NOT 'carved in stone' yet.

If they change rockets now, is it still considered Constellation? If they select & call Jupiter an Ares IV and make it part of Constellation, could there not be a change in engines?

No.

You are still assuming the current RS-68s won't work when it is still a work in progress like TO ...

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2008/12/ssme-ares-v-undergoes-evaluation-potential-switch/
As for the liquid main engines on the ares (or jupiter) rocket or whatever ultimatley replaces the shuttles there are some changes needed to ensure that base heating is not a risk factor. But a regenerativly cooled rs 68 should be able to resolve this (that or replacing the srb with a two quad powered LRBs). My point for "new propulsion" is mainly for service module and for main departure/ return propulsion (an example is using a vasimir upper stage to propel an orion capsule to and from mars, or something similar). Conventional propulsion is without a doubt the best  option for getting to orbit and to the moon or near earth objects. But it is rather impractical for deep space (mars or a mission to the moons of another planet, for example). You simply cannot carry enough propellant. Thats why a new type of propulsion would be excellent for deep space while conventional remains the best for orbit/ moon/ near earth missions. Your thoughts on "new" propulsion system for deep space?
« Last Edit: 12/02/2009 12:23 am by FinalFrontier »
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Offline marsavian

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All these are discussed on the Advanced Concepts threads. Knock yourself out ;).

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=26.0

Offline FinalFrontier

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My idea for the new rocket:
1. Use the Jupiter architecture as a starting point.
2. Build a family of HLV and SHLVs based around this system (similar to the delta and atlas families.)
3. For the HLV and SHLV classes use LRBS not SRBS (jackhammer thrust oscillation is just as bad as pogo oscialltion)
4. Consider building an upgraded version of the SSME or RS 68  that is more suited to the current mission objectives (this has been considered to an extent in the form of nasa wanting to develop (at one point) something called a: Enhanced Electronically Modulated Ultra Efficient Staged Combustion Engine with international partners). Main power would be ethier RP1/Lox, HydroLox, or Nautral Gas(methane)/Lox.
5. The upper most engine (short of the service module engine) for deep space propulsion would be something similar to the VX200 (though it could use nuclear, ion, antimatter, netrino, plasma, ect. as the primary propellant.)
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Offline Jim

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5. The upper most engine (short of the service module engine) for deep space propulsion would be something similar to the VX200 (though it could use nuclear, ion, antimatter, netrino, plasma, ect. as the primary propellant.)

for Constellation, that is the J-2X.  Constellation is not an advanced propulsion program.  Talk of any other system is outside of the constellation program

Offline kch

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5. The upper most engine (short of the service module engine) for deep space propulsion would be something similar to the VX200 (though it could use nuclear, ion, antimatter, netrino, plasma, ect. as the primary propellant.)


Ectoplasm?  ;)

Offline Downix

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5. The upper most engine (short of the service module engine) for deep space propulsion would be something similar to the VX200 (though it could use nuclear, ion, antimatter, netrino, plasma, ect. as the primary propellant.)

for Constellation, that is the J-2X.  Constellation is not an advanced propulsion program.  Talk of any other system is outside of the constellation program
So you are saying that any option that is not a J-2X cannot fit into a modified/evolved form of Constellation?
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Offline Jim

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So you are saying that any option that is not a J-2X cannot fit into a modified/evolved form of Constellation?

Constellation doesn't go out that far.  Just as CxP is not part of the shuttle program, even though it uses shuttle hardware.  The ESAS basically envelopes CxP
« Last Edit: 12/02/2009 01:49 pm by Jim »

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