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General Discussion => Historical Spaceflight => Topic started by: qprmeteor on 02/08/2007 04:34 pm

Title: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 02/08/2007 04:34 pm
I've always wondered why these two Apollo-era astronauts had to wait so long for their solitary shuttle flight. Lind, in particular, would seem to have been a strong candidate for an earlier flight - does any one know why this wasn't the case?

Thanks in advance - and I must say I'm very much enjoying the site since I found it a few months ago. Absolutely superb resource - you could spend days here  ;)

Brian
Title: RE: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 02/11/2007 03:13 pm
And Bruce McCandless?
Title: RE: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: shuttlefan on 02/13/2007 12:08 am
Also, Story Musgrave.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: DwightM on 02/13/2007 12:56 am
I believe what qprmeteor is getting at is not why it took so long for them to fly from the time of their selection, but from the time of the start of the STS.  Musgrave was on STS-6, the second flight with Mission Specialists.  Likewise, McCandless was assigned to STS-11 (which became 41B, the 10th flight) which was to test the MMU McCandless was involved with.  Tony England is an astronomer, so he was assigned to fly the first Spacelab mission with that as its focus (51F).  As for Lind, they apparently wanted him on a science-focused mission as well, and with Garriott & Parker on Spacelab 1 (STS-9), and Musgrave, England, & Henize on Spacelab 2 (51F), that left Spacelab 3 (51B, which flew earlier than 51F).  Just my theory.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: zerm on 02/13/2007 01:39 am
Some stuff for thought here- First off Don Lind was assigned to the AS-109 Skylab rescue vehicle and was ready to go during that period, it is just that the flight was never needed. Had it been needed for the SL-3 rescue, for example, he was there and ready, so he had indeed been assigned a flight and was trained and ready to fly as a prime crew member.

Next, I had the chance to do work as a lecturer (enhancement speaker) on a cruise ship back in 2001 and the other speaker was Jack Lousma. Although my work kept me too busy to spend any significant social time with Mr. Lousma, we did talk a bit (keep in mind that I was hired to wear my maritime historian hat full time and thus had no time for space buff stuff). He said something intresting about being selected for flights. He said that everyone knew exactly who you had to impress (i.e. Deke Slayton) to get into the rotation- but no one knew exactly how to do it. Every time someone thought they got Deke talking as to how he selected crews, he gave a different or evasive answer as to what his method may be- either that or no answer at all. He apparently took whatever method he really used to the grave with him. Another intresting tid bit was that Fred Haise was the original CDR for STS-3 and Mr. Lousma was to be the PLT. When Haise decided to retire, Mr. Lousma was simply shifted to the CDR seat rather than the back-up CDR being placed there (no big deal- just intresting to me). To this day I regret that I spent all that time on that vessel with Mr. Lousma and never got the chance to sit down and talk pilot to pilot. I did, however, get our picture together- hangs right here next to my desk.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: dwmzmm on 02/13/2007 02:22 am
Not really sure, but I thought Don Lind was in line for one of the Apollo Lunar Landing missions that got canceled.  I've seen pics of him wearing lunar
spacesuits in a book I've seen at a college library.  Then, he was suppose to be one of the crew member for the possible rescue mission for Skylab
that wasn't needed.  Yes, it's a shame that Lind and a number of the Apollo era astronauts had to wait so long before they finally got their chance...
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: STS-500Cmdr on 02/13/2007 04:09 am
A Lesson in perseverance as Charlie Duke calls it  The thing is when astronauts, astronaut classes or groups make the cut, are selected--they are told right away-theres no guarantee your gonna get a flight at all--this was the case back in the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo era and still applies now--if you look there are something like a couple hundred astronauts in the corp now--people who selected 10 or so yrs ago--many of whom still havent flown and many who probably never will--14 space shuttle flights left--on a 7-seat shuttle

There were alot of people selected in the 1960s-in the run-up to Apollo who were in that same boat-who didnt go-didnt go until shuttle--all qualified people--Bruce McCandless, Don Lind, Tony England, Story Musgrave, etc and The MOL guys who rolled over to NASA--Joe Engle was going to fly Apollo 17 and got replaced by Jack Schmitt--Gene Cernan had the difficult job of telling Jow that he was being replaced by a scientist.  Gene Cernan couldve been replaced by Dick Gordon.  I have an old tape of 15 Apollo astronauts at Oshgosh in 1994--Cernan and Charlie Duke and a couple othrs talked about this--they say the first thing Deke Slayton told them were no guarantees--Duke got talking about this and the people in his group--group of 1966 they called themselves the original 19-he talked about the people in his group that flew as CMPs to the moon--command module pilots--he said going to the moon was better than no going at all--he said the last 2 guys in his group--i later learned he was referring to Lind and Bruce McCandless--flew in 1984-85--waited 19 yrs for their first flight--he said that was a lesson in perseverance as i mentioned earlier--those who got to go to the moon--even as CMPs to orbit overhead while the other 2 went down to the surface--were felt and were very fortunate to have gotten to go at all.  All these people showed up at the right time, had good backgrounds--in addition to impressing Deke Slayton, flying his jet--they said fate played a big role in who flys what missions--the guys were talking about here all showed up around the time of Apollo 1 so that threw a wrench into things im sure.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Dana on 02/13/2007 08:12 am
Quote
zerm - 12/2/2007  6:39 PM

Some stuff for thought here- First off Don Lind was assigned to the AS-109 Skylab rescue vehicle and was ready to go during that period, it is just that the flight was never needed. Had it been needed for the SL-3 rescue, for example, he was there and ready, so he had indeed been assigned a flight and was trained and ready to fly as a prime crew member.

Next, I had the chance to do work as a lecturer (enhancement speaker) on a cruise ship back in 2001 and the other speaker was Jack Lousma. Although my work kept me too busy to spend any significant social time with Mr. Lousma, we did talk a bit (keep in mind that I was hired to wear my maritime historian hat full time and thus had no time for space buff stuff). He said something intresting about being selected for flights. He said that everyone knew exactly who you had to impress (i.e. Deke Slayton) to get into the rotation- but no one knew exactly how to do it. Every time someone thought they got Deke talking as to how he selected crews, he gave a different or evasive answer as to what his method may be- either that or no answer at all. He apparently took whatever method he really used to the grave with him. Another intresting tid bit was that Fred Haise was the original CDR for STS-3 and Mr. Lousma was to be the PLT. When Haise decided to retire, Mr. Lousma was simply shifted to the CDR seat rather than the back-up CDR being placed there (no big deal- just intresting to me). To this day I regret that I spent all that time on that vessel with Mr. Lousma and never got the chance to sit down and talk pilot to pilot. I did, however, get our picture together- hangs right here next to my desk.

www.astronautix.com says that Lind was suggested for the Prime Crew of Apollo 20, along with Jack Lousma, to be commanded by Stu Roosa. His name was also mentioned for a proposed 4th Skylab mission, together with Bill Lenoir and commanded by Vance Brand. The three of them, by the way-Brand, Lind, and Lenoir-were the backup crew for the final two Skylab missions.

On a more concrete note, though, the aforementioned Story Musgrave was the backup Science Pilot for Skylab 2 (aka Skylab 1-don't ask); backup CMP was McCandless. (Commander Pete Conrad's backup for the mission was Rusty Schweickart.) Certainly in the wake of Apollo 13, everybody knew that if Dr. Joe Kerwin couldn't go, Story would have gone, and I believe that assignment made Story Musgrave the first of the "XS-11" to land anything like a flight assignment. To be the first of your group to get that far might be seen as a vote of confidence.

The backup scenario must have been a factor for Brand and his crew as well-none of whom had flown yet. But they got the nod to go if the need arose. To me that would be a good sign.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: dwmzmm on 02/13/2007 02:21 pm
Also remember that Gordo Cooper was suppose to be the original commander of the Apollo - 14 moon mission, until Alan Shepard used his clout to
bump Gordo off to take that slot.  That must have been a real let down for someone like Gordo, a man who, in my opinion, always seem to conduct
himself as a class act...
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 02/13/2007 07:18 pm
Quote
dwmzmm - 12/2/2007  9:22 PM

Not really sure, but I thought Don Lind was in line for one of the Apollo Lunar Landing missions that got canceled.  
I have read in "Apollo lost and forgotten missions" That Lind was in line for Apollo 21 (under lunar AAP program).
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 02/13/2007 07:28 pm
Quote
dwmzmm - 13/2/2007  9:21 AM

Also remember that Gordo Cooper was suppose to be the original commander of the Apollo - 14 moon mission, until Alan Shepard used his clout to
bump Gordo off to take that slot.  That must have been a real let down for someone like Gordo, a man who, in my opinion, always seem to conduct
himself as a class act...
No,Gordo did not have chance at all .If Shepard was not returned  in active duty the CMDR of Apollo 13/14 would have been Jim McDivitt.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 02/13/2007 10:32 pm
Quote
DwightM - 12/2/2007  8:56 PM

I believe what qprmeteor is getting at is not why it took so long for them to fly from the time of their selection, but from the time of the start of the STS.  

Indeed I was referring to way it took so long for them to be selected from the start of STS. I believe England (who was a geophysicist, IIRC) spent some time out of the Astronaut Office in the late 70's, and so slipped down the flight order, but with Lind, considering he, in addition to being a scientist, was a pilot (as per his possible selection for a later Apollo/Skylab rescue flight), and had seniority over the MOL intake - he could have pushed for an early flight, in the same manner as fellow Group 5 astros like Engle, Lousma, Brand and Mattingly....

Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: DwightM on 02/13/2007 11:11 pm
Quote
qprmeteor - 13/2/2007  2:32 PM

Quote
DwightM - 12/2/2007  8:56 PM

I believe what qprmeteor is getting at is not why it took so long for them to fly from the time of their selection, but from the time of the start of the STS.  

Indeed I was referring to way it took so long for them to be selected from the start of STS. I believe England (who was a geophysicist, IIRC) spent some time out of the Astronaut Office in the late 70's, and so slipped down the flight order, but with Lind, considering he, in addition to being a scientist, was a pilot (as per his possible selection for a later Apollo/Skylab rescue flight), and had seniority over the MOL intake - he could have pushed for an early flight, in the same manner as fellow Group 5 astros like Engle, Lousma, Brand and Mattingly....

I see.  That I have no guesses at.  Likewise you may ask why Don Peterson flew as an MS and not as a PLT as the other MOL astros did.  That's another one I have no answer for, but I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation somewhere.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: TJL on 02/13/2007 11:38 pm
I guess the same can be said for Griggs, Nagel, McMonagle, Readdy, Cockrell and Precourt...all chosen as Pilots but flew first as Mission Specialists.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 02/13/2007 11:41 pm
Don Peterson - now that was a strange case. Didn't he get on the wrong side of Abbey?
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: dwmzmm on 02/13/2007 11:56 pm
Quote
carmelo - 13/2/2007  2:28 PM

Quote
dwmzmm - 13/2/2007  9:21 AM

Also remember that Gordo Cooper was suppose to be the original commander of the Apollo - 14 moon mission, until Alan Shepard used his clout to
bump Gordo off to take that slot.  That must have been a real let down for someone like Gordo, a man who, in my opinion, always seem to conduct
himself as a class act...
No,Gordo did not have chance at all .If Shepard was not returned  in active duty the CMDR of Apollo 13/14 would have been Jim McDivitt.

My understanding is that Gordo was originally chosen to command the Apollo - 13 mission, but had what was
termed a "falling out" with NASA management and decided to retire from NASA in mid 1970.  I'll go and try to find the sources for this, but I'm wondering if there's others on this forum who might really be "in the know" about this subject that can shed some light here.  When Shepard got the nod for Apollo command,
his mission was pushed to Apollo - 14 as he (Shepard) needed some more training time...
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: TJL on 02/14/2007 12:03 am
There was also talk of having McDivitt fly as LMP with Shepard on Apollo 13 with Roosa as CMP.
IMO...if McDivitt accepted, I don't believe Shepard's crew would have been re-assigned to Apollo 14.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Jorge on 02/14/2007 12:38 am
Quote
dwmzmm - 13/2/2007  6:56 PM

Quote
carmelo - 13/2/2007  2:28 PM

Quote
dwmzmm - 13/2/2007  9:21 AM

Also remember that Gordo Cooper was suppose to be the original commander of the Apollo - 14 moon mission, until Alan Shepard used his clout to
bump Gordo off to take that slot.  That must have been a real let down for someone like Gordo, a man who, in my opinion, always seem to conduct
himself as a class act...
No,Gordo did not have chance at all .If Shepard was not returned  in active duty the CMDR of Apollo 13/14 would have been Jim McDivitt.

My understanding is that Gordo was originally chosen to command the Apollo - 13 mission, but had what was
termed a "falling out" with NASA management and decided to retire from NASA in mid 1970.  I'll go and try to find the sources for this, but I'm wondering if there's others on this forum who might really be "in the know" about this subject that can shed some light here.  When Shepard got the nod for Apollo command, his mission was pushed to Apollo - 14 as he (Shepard) needed some more training time...

Cooper was backup commander for Apollo 10. Under Slayton's rotation system that made him the presumptive commander for 13, but Deke considered the 10 assignment probationary and was unimpressed with Gordo's performance. There was no way Deke was going to assign Gordo to 13 after that.

At least that's my memory from reading Cassutt's biography of Slayton. Once I find it amongst all the clutter :), I'll try to confirm. Or maybe Cassutt himself can confirm or deny, since he's now on the forums. :)
--
JRF
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Michael Cassutt on 02/17/2007 07:48 pm
Quote
Jorge - 13/2/2007  7:38 PM

Quote
dwmzmm - 13/2/2007  6:56 PM

Quote
carmelo - 13/2/2007  2:28 PM

Quote
dwmzmm - 13/2/2007  9:21 AM

Also remember that Gordo Cooper was suppose to be the original commander of the Apollo - 14 moon mission, until Alan Shepard used his clout to
bump Gordo off to take that slot.  That must have been a real let down for someone like Gordo, a man who, in my opinion, always seem to conduct
himself as a class act...
No,Gordo did not have chance at all .If Shepard was not returned  in active duty the CMDR of Apollo 13/14 would have been Jim McDivitt.

My understanding is that Gordo was originally chosen to command the Apollo - 13 mission, but had what was
termed a "falling out" with NASA management and decided to retire from NASA in mid 1970.  I'll go and try to find the sources for this, but I'm wondering if there's others on this forum who might really be "in the know" about this subject that can shed some light here.  When Shepard got the nod for Apollo command, his mission was pushed to Apollo - 14 as he (Shepard) needed some more training time...

Cooper was backup commander for Apollo 10. Under Slayton's rotation system that made him the presumptive commander for 13, but Deke considered the 10 assignment probationary and was unimpressed with Gordo's performance. There was no way Deke was going to assign Gordo to 13 after that.

At least that's my memory from reading Cassutt's biography of Slayton. Once I find it amongst all the clutter :), I'll try to confirm. Or maybe Cassutt himself can confirm or deny, since he's now on the forums. :)
--
JRF

Well, isn't a rule of forums that if you're mentioned, you have to weigh in?  ;)  Jorge is correct: to an outside observer, Gordo certainly seemed aimed for command of Apollo 13 after serving as backup commander for 10, but Slayton never seriously considered it.  In fact, he had been quite reluctant to put Gordon in the 10 backup job, telling Stafford, "You'd better not get sick on me."

Michael Cassutt
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 05/03/2007 03:28 pm
Picked up a copy of 'NASA's Scientist-Astronauts' by Shayler & Burgess recently, fascinating read and insight into Groups 4 and 6. In reference to why England and Henize waited so long to fly, it seems they were assigned early to Spacelab 2, but the flight was bumped backwards in the manifest. Seems England had also been in the running for an early MS spot, but ended up with Spacelab 2 instead. Post 51F, England was subsequently assigned to Sunlab, but that fell victim to the Challenger accident, and he left without flying again.

Some interesting photos in this book, such as a very relaxed Bill Lenoir sitting on the floor of the White Room before boarding Columbia on STS-5 (you wouldn't think he's about to be launched into space :) ), plus an intruiging couple of  photo form 1980 where we see Joe Kerwin and Anna Fisher in Skylab pressure suits, performing an evaluation for a HST repair mission. Interestingly, Kerwin is wearing Rusty Schweikart's suit, while I can't make out whose suit Fisher is wearing....
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 05/04/2007 12:52 am
Quote
qprmeteor - 3/5/2007  10:28 AM

plus an intruiging couple of  photo form 1980 where we see Joe Kerwin and Anna Fisher in Skylab pressure suits, performing an evaluation for a HST repair mission. Interestingly, Kerwin is wearing Rusty Schweikart's suit, while I can't make out whose suit Fisher is wearing....
Wow! you can scan the photo and put here?
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 05/04/2007 12:33 pm
I'll scan both photos tonight after work!
Title: RE: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 05/04/2007 10:38 pm
As promised, the Kerwin/Fisher photos - sorry about the relatively poor quality, dodgy scanner alas!

Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 05/05/2007 01:55 pm
Fantastic Thanks! But why Doctor Kerwin don't return more in space?
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 05/07/2007 12:16 pm
Joe Kerwin was in the running for an early MS slot, however, he became NASA's senior science representative in Australia in 1982 which took him out of the Astronaut Office. He returned to JSC in 1984 to become Director, Space and Life Sciences. IIRC, he performed the autoposies of the Challnger crew, but I may be wrong on that. He left NASA in 1987.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Jorge on 05/07/2007 03:04 pm
Quote
qprmeteor - 7/5/2007  7:16 AM

Joe Kerwin was in the running for an early MS slot, however, he became NASA's senior science representative in Australia in 1982 which took him out of the Astronaut Office. He returned to JSC in 1984 to become Director, Space and Life Sciences. IIRC, he performed the autoposies of the Challnger crew, but I may be wrong on that.

Nope, you're correct.

http://history.nasa.gov/kerwin.html
--
JRF
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: rsp1202 on 05/07/2007 03:19 pm
The report reads that Kerwin represented NASA at the procedures, not that he was hand's on. AFIP have experts for that.

And this makes for very sober reading. Can't vouch for accuracy:
http://www.lutins.org/nasa.html
Title: RE: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: dvandorn on 05/08/2007 07:45 pm
My memory of Michael Cassutt's excellent "Deke!" is that, if flown, the crews of the final three Apollo missions would have been (in CDR, LMP, CMP order):

Apollo 18:  Dick Gordon, Jack Schmitt, Vance Brand
Apollo 19:  Fred Haise, Bill Pogue, Jack Lousma
Apollo 20:  Stu Roosa, Don Lind, Paul Weitz

The first two crews did train together -- Gordon's crew was back-up to Apollo 15, and for a few months, the Haise-Pogue-Lousma crew served as back-ups to Apollo 16.  However, when Apollos 15 and 19 were canceled, and it became obvious that Haise's crew would not fly in Apollo, it was re-arranged.  Pogue and Lousma were replaced by Mitchell and Roosa on a back-up crew that everyone knew would, barring disasters, never fly.

I do recall specifically that Deke said of Don Lind, "Apollo just ran out."  He was definitely going to fly on Apollo 20, had there been an Apollo 20.  (As I recall, he was being groomed as an LMP -- he had been the Astronaut Office representative to the development of the ALSEP and the lunar EVA suit, so I believe he was in line for a landing slot.)

Tony England was also highly thought of -- he was going to be the EVA CapCom on Apollo 13, for example, and was a support crew member on both 13 and 16.  I've always felt that, after flying Jack Schmitt on Apollo 18, Deke would have been under some pressure to fly a second scientist to the Moon before the program ended.  Tony was the only other astronaut besides Schmitt to have a degree in the geologic sciences (geophysics), and was considered highly competent.  I always wondered whether or not Deke would have given in and assigned Tony as the LMP on Apollo 20.

As for Bruce McCandless -- he was very highly thought of early in the program.  In 1969, he got the extremely plum assignment of CapCom during the first lunar EVA, and Shepard thought well enough of him to request him as his EVA-1 CapCom during Apollo 14.  I believe Deke put down his lack of earlier flights to the same syndrome that caught Lind, and also to McCandless' work on the AMU.  However, I always wondered... Bruce got sort of cheeky with Al Shepard while the latter was walking on the Moon, and I always wondered whether or not Smilin' Al had anything to do with Bruce's extended assignment delay.

As far as I'm concerned, of the "Original Nineteen" group, Fred Haise was the top-ranked guy, and Stu Roosa was the second-top-ranked.  They are the only guys out of their class who were considered for late Apollo mission commands, Haise was the first of his group to receive any kind of assignment (backup LMP on Apollo 8) and Roosa -- well, it's my opinion that Stu was paid back for yeomanlike service.

You see, Roosa was the guy at the Stoney console (the launch center's equivalent of the CapCom position) during Apollo 1's plugs-out test.  Of everyone on duty (or off duty) that evening, Roosa was on-point -- he was the guy talking to the crew.  He endured an agony that no one else could have guessed at, and he did it stoically, with professionalism.

It was sheer luck that Stu was in the position he was in -- he was given the job and everyone looked to see how he'd do with it.  But he not only impressed people with the way he did the job, he endured something none of the rest of them (including Deke) would have wanted to endure themselves.  So, they made it up to him.  He got to stay on-console as CapCom for pretty much every moment the Apollo 9 crew was awake, working with several different flight control teams.  And he was assigned as the prime CMP on Al Shepard's crew without ever having to serve on a backup crew (the only guy besides Shepard himself to manage that feat during Apollo).  Even Stu didn't believe that one at first -- when Shepard called Stu and Mitchell into his office and told them, "If you don't mind flying with an old retread, we're the prime crew for Apollo 13," Roosa's response was a four-word question:  "Did you say prime?"

Shame they couldn't have included that moment in "From the Earth to the Moon"...
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 05/09/2007 01:13 am
What about Pete Conrad on Apollo 20? Pete wanted a second trip on the moon,and remember Pete is the guy that obtains what it wants (see CMDR role in SK-2 over Cunningham and Schweickart).And if Apollo 13  was landed on the moon,Haise would have had Apollo 19,or the CMDR for 19 would have been Swigert (or Mattingly)?
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Jorge on 05/09/2007 01:20 am
Quote
carmelo - 8/5/2007  8:13 PM

What about Pete Conrad on Apollo 20? Pete wanted a second trip on the moon,and remember Pete is the guy that obtains what it wants (see CMDR role in SK-2 over Cunningham and Schweickart).

From my (dim) memory of Cassutt's bio, Deke's response to Pete was, "You only get one of those."

Pete usually got what he wanted, but not always. He didn't get Lunar Gemini and he wasn't going to get a second moonwalk, if Deke had anything to say about it.
--
JRF
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Michael Cassutt on 05/09/2007 02:53 am
Quote
Jorge - 8/5/2007  8:20 PM

Quote
carmelo - 8/5/2007  8:13 PM

What about Pete Conrad on Apollo 20? Pete wanted a second trip on the moon,and remember Pete is the guy that obtains what it wants (see CMDR role in SK-2 over Cunningham and Schweickart).

From my (dim) memory of Cassutt's bio, Deke's response to Pete was, "You only get one of those."

Pete usually got what he wanted, but not always. He didn't get Lunar Gemini and he wasn't going to get a second moonwalk, if Deke had anything to say about it.
--
JRF

It was actually Tom Stafford (in his role as chief astronaut) to Pete.... and not only did Conrad not get a (possible) second lunar landing command, he didn't get to succeed Deke, either.   When Deke gave up his FCOD job to train for Apollo-Soyuz in 1973, Pete reportedly applied to succeed him, only to be informed by higher-ups (I believe it was Mr. Kraft -- who else would be higher?) that "there isn't going to be another Deke" -- meaning that a re-org of FCOps and the astronaut office was planned, and did, indeed, take place in early 1974.

Michael Cassutt
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 05/09/2007 03:51 pm
And about
Quote
if Apollo 13 was landed on the moon,Haise would have had Apollo 19,or the CMDR for 19 would have been Swigert (or Mattingly)
?
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 05/09/2007 07:47 pm
Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Michael Cassutt on 05/09/2007 09:06 pm
Quote
qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: qprmeteor on 05/09/2007 10:39 pm
Quote
Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  5:06 PM

Quote
qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Now that would have been interesting, thanks for that Michael! I wonder what morale would have been like in the Astronaut Office amongst the CMPs, seeing LMPs like Haise, Mitchell and Irwin get a second bite of the lunar landing cherry...  :)
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 05/10/2007 12:17 am
Quote
Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  4:06 PM

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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt
Incredible! Haise lost two times the moon!!! That unlucky guy! :frown:  So,Apollo 20 CMDR would have been Irwin and Mitchell on 21?? But i have not read nothing of this in "Deke".Why?
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Michael Cassutt on 05/10/2007 05:20 am
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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  5:39 PM

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Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  5:06 PM

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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Now that would have been interesting, thanks for that Michael! I wonder what morale would have been like in the Astronaut Office amongst the CMPs, seeing LMPs like Haise, Mitchell and Irwin get a second bite of the lunar landing cherry...  :)

Well, as Deke said, "All astronauts are created equal... but some are more equal than others."  More seriously, he had to balance fairness and sentimentality (spreading the goodies around, trying to get  everyone a flight) with common sense and efficient use of resources (making full use of those with LM training).  It probably would have irked some astros that their colleagues made it to the Moon twice and they didn't, but there was always a reason for someone to get irked.   As in any job.

Michael Cassutt
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Michael Cassutt on 05/10/2007 05:25 am
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carmelo - 9/5/2007  7:17 PM

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Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  4:06 PM

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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt
Incredible! Haise lost two times the moon!!! That unlucky guy! :frown:  So,Apollo 20 CMDR would have been Irwin and Mitchell on 21?? But i have not read nothing of this in "Deke".Why?


You didn't read it in DEKE! because it's just what-if talk -- it was worth discussing the rationale behind crew assignments -- that was history -- and useful to know some of Deke's rationale.  What is the point in saying  Haise "lost" the Moon "twice"?  The projection of later commanders was only relevant for a few weeks in 1969.... as missions disappeared, or were flown, and astronauts made career decisions, everything changed.  To read more into it is just silly.

Michael Cassutt
Title: RE: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: dvandorn on 05/10/2007 04:18 pm
Thanks for the additional details, Michael!  Gee, I would never have thought that even Deke would imagine there would be enough flights to recycle such people as Mitchell and Irwin into CDR slots before the moon flights ended.  Don't get me wrong, they were excellent and competent astronauts.  But their initial Apollo flights came late enough in the program, even in 1969 figuring, that you'd have to be thinking in terms of landings beyond Apollo 20 to figure on getting those guys into command slots...
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: carmelo on 05/10/2007 04:41 pm
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Michael Cassutt - 10/5/2007  12:25 AM



You didn't read it in DEKE! because it's just what-if talk -- it was worth discussing the rationale behind crew assignments -- that was history -- and useful to know some of Deke's rationale.  What is the point in saying  Haise "lost" the Moon "twice"?  The projection of later commanders was only relevant for a few weeks in 1969.... as missions disappeared, or were flown, and astronauts made career decisions, everything changed.  To read more into it is just silly.

Michael Cassutt
For few weeks in 1969? Apollo 19 was cancelled  2 September 1970 ,months after Apollo 13,  So when 13 was launched Fred Haise could have had two moon landing.So he lost the moon twice.Is simple.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: TJL on 05/12/2007 04:13 pm
QUOTE...The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_. Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael...where did you find that information about Mitchell amd Irwin getting CDR slots to end the Apollo program.
I know Haise was chosen as BU CDR on 16 which would move him up to CDR on 19, however, I remember talk of Apollo 14 CMP Roosa getting the likely nod to command Apollo 20.
If I remember correctly, only Cernan and Haise went from LMP to CDR...and Cernan was chosen due to Apollo 11 CMP Collins decision to retire.
Title: Re: Don Lind and Tony England
Post by: Michael Cassutt on 05/12/2007 10:03 pm
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TJL - 12/5/2007  11:13 AM

QUOTE...The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_. Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael...where did you find that information about Mitchell amd Irwin getting CDR slots to end the Apollo program.
I know Haise was chosen as BU CDR on 16 which would move him up to CDR on 19, however, I remember talk of Apollo 14 CMP Roosa getting the likely nod to command Apollo 20.
If I remember correctly, only Cernan and Haise went from LMP to CDR...and Cernan was chosen due to Apollo 11 CMP Collins decision to retire.

From Slayton, both in conversation and notes.  Keep in mind these provisos, however: there never was a likely landing for Irwin (backup LMP 12, prime LMP 15, potential backup CDR 18, potential prime CDR 21) to have been aimed _at_.  Deke just said he thought Irwin was a strong candidate to command his own landing mission.  

Further, Mitchell made it clear sometime in 1970 that he didn't wish to stay in the astronaut office after his flight -- hence the talk of Roosa as a potential commander.  By that time Apollo 20 was on the verge of cancellation, so the issue was soon moot.

As I said somewhere upthread, the possibility of these LM pilots rotating to the command of later missions was never really an issue -- just one scenario valid only for a brief period in 1969.

There's also no point in looking for "logic" by contrasting the Collins-Cernan situation with that of Haise-Mitchell-Irwin.  Slayton considered the earlier Apollo CM pilots (Scott, Young, Collins, Gordon) to be some of his most capable astronauts (hence their assignment to those seats on those missions).  He wanted them to get their own crews and commands at the next opportunity.

With the 1966 group, there was a rough (but by no means absolute) division of LM and CM specialists.  Yes, it was easily possible for someone like Roosa, Mattingly or Swigert to become a lunar landing commander -- but when you already have Haise, Mitchell and Irwin -- all of them involved with the LM from late 1966 on -- why would you assign the former _ahead of_ the latter?

Michael Cassutt