Author Topic: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study  (Read 31964 times)

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #60 on: 02/10/2013 12:54 am »
Off topic...

People going thru school are preoccupied with the complexities of what they will experience in industry.  People in industry are preoccupied with complexities of what they should have experienced in school.

There is a time for everything.
Agreed.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm starting to look into using large hydrolox engines for the first stage.  RS-68 would be ideal, per my estimates (2900 kN of thrust at sea level, using three would provide 8700 kN of thrust, a good 22% increase in performance over using 8 H-1s).  As a bonus, it may be possible to use the same engine in the second stage as well, resulting in a shorter stage).

If it were possible, I'd look into acquiring a handful of them from Pratt & Whitney (and/or ULA, I think).  It'd probably turn out to be cheaper in the long run.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #61 on: 02/10/2013 02:41 am »
Project Morpheus will probably want to sell Thorth its 19 kN methane/LOX engine for use in the lander.  10 engines should give the manned lander a good payload.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #62 on: 02/10/2013 04:39 am »
Project Morpheus will probably want to sell Thorth its 19 kN methane/LOX engine for use in the lander.  10 engines should give the manned lander a good payload.
I certainly hope so.  While the descent stage of Artemis (the lunar lander) will not be able to use those engines, as it has to perform LOI and landing, the ascent stage would greatly benefit from them.

Let this be an open letter to anyone involved in Project Morpheus:  You've got a customer.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #63 on: 02/13/2013 02:58 am »
In other advancements this week, it looks like Apex will use a few RS-68s.  Four per CCU, to be exact, a tremendous save in cost over using a bunch of H-1s and a J2-S with the bonus of increasing commonality between stages significantly.

There's a bit to talk about with this change, so to save me repeating myself, I'll just attach my on-paper work to this post.  Be forewarned: I have the handwriting of a doctor.

(Apologies if updating this topic is a bit sluggish, starting algebra in the middle of the year after a comparatively easy first semester is a real brain-frier).
« Last Edit: 02/13/2013 03:01 am by MattJL »

Offline hkultala

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #64 on: 02/13/2013 03:16 am »
Off topic...

People going thru school are preoccupied with the complexities of what they will experience in industry.  People in industry are preoccupied with complexities of what they should have experienced in school.

There is a time for everything.
Agreed.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm starting to look into using large hydrolox engines for the first stage.  RS-68 would be ideal, per my estimates (2900 kN of thrust at sea level, using three would provide 8700 kN of thrust, a good 22% increase in performance over using 8 H-1s).  As a bonus, it may be possible to use the same engine in the second stage as well, resulting in a shorter stage).

RS-68 cannot be used as a second stage engine.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25800.60

« Last Edit: 02/13/2013 03:17 am by hkultala »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #65 on: 02/13/2013 03:35 am »
Off topic...

People going thru school are preoccupied with the complexities of what they will experience in industry.  People in industry are preoccupied with complexities of what they should have experienced in school.

There is a time for everything.
Agreed.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm starting to look into using large hydrolox engines for the first stage.  RS-68 would be ideal, per my estimates (2900 kN of thrust at sea level, using three would provide 8700 kN of thrust, a good 22% increase in performance over using 8 H-1s).  As a bonus, it may be possible to use the same engine in the second stage as well, resulting in a shorter stage).

RS-68 cannot be used as a second stage engine.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25800.60


Looks like I dun goofed.

Well... that's interesting, to say the least.  To say the most, it looks like I might have to procure a couple of J2-Xs instead.  Either that or develop a completely new 1000 kN engine for the second stage, whichever one's cheaper.

I still think it's a good idea to stick with RS-68s for the first stage, though (greater thrust, Isp is better than H-1, ensures commonality with hydrolox upper stage)
« Last Edit: 02/13/2013 03:42 am by MattJL »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #66 on: 02/15/2013 03:21 am »
Apologies for bumping the thread, but I have some excellent news to report.

I've tested a sample of C-1700 ablator, which turned out to be resoundingly successful!  Temperature on the exposed surface was roughly 1000 C, and the backside reached a temperature of 280 C - well within the tolerances of Phoenix's airframe.  Next challenge is to ensure it can insulate against the sort of heating I'd expect on return from the Moon - 5000 C - and per some crude math, I estimate that the heat shield on Phoenix will be between 7 and 10 centimeters thick.

Also, it's pretty inexpensive and un-complicated to manufacture, which will probably be a good thing when Phoenix begins flying regular flights (something that I don't expect to happen until the late 2030s at best).

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures at the moment, because it's for a  research project.  I'll try to get some soon, though.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #67 on: 02/16/2013 07:04 am »
In other advancements this week, it looks like Apex will use a few RS-68s.  Four per CCU, to be exact, a tremendous save in cost over using a bunch of H-1s and a J2-S with the bonus of increasing commonality between stages significantly.

There's a bit to talk about with this change, so to save me repeating myself, I'll just attach my on-paper work to this post.  Be forewarned: I have the handwriting of a doctor.

(Apologies if updating this topic is a bit sluggish, starting algebra in the middle of the year after a comparatively easy first semester is a real brain-frier).
Looks like you are moving faster than NASA in returning us to the moon. Great job.  You are also reducing the amount of paper usage by shrinking/eliminating the logo.

There is a pointy thing on top of the launch vehicle.  What is this thing supposed to do interms of functionality?  If you dont need it, you might be able to haul more stuff into orbit.

I am going to start a thread to see if we can rewrite the articles of the Moon Treaty.  We might be able to release the limitations on astronauts stuck in low earth orbit if we claim that the a New Moon Treaty was peer reviewed in public on a blog site and was considered 'open and notorious' policy.  Perhaps we can get Sweden or Pago Pago to ratify it first in order to get the ball rolling.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #68 on: 02/16/2013 06:44 pm »
In other advancements this week, it looks like Apex will use a few RS-68s.  Four per CCU, to be exact, a tremendous save in cost over using a bunch of H-1s and a J2-S with the bonus of increasing commonality between stages significantly.

There's a bit to talk about with this change, so to save me repeating myself, I'll just attach my on-paper work to this post.  Be forewarned: I have the handwriting of a doctor.

(Apologies if updating this topic is a bit sluggish, starting algebra in the middle of the year after a comparatively easy first semester is a real brain-frier).
Looks like you are moving faster than NASA in returning us to the moon. Great job.  You are also reducing the amount of paper usage by shrinking/eliminating the logo.

There is a pointy thing on top of the launch vehicle.  What is this thing supposed to do interms of functionality?  If you dont need it, you might be able to haul more stuff into orbit.

I am going to start a thread to see if we can rewrite the articles of the Moon Treaty.  We might be able to release the limitations on astronauts stuck in low earth orbit if we claim that the a New Moon Treaty was peer reviewed in public on a blog site and was considered 'open and notorious' policy.  Perhaps we can get Sweden or Pago Pago to ratify it first in order to get the ball rolling.
Pointy thing's the LES, which I hope is fairly important.  :P

Best of luck on getting the New Moon Treaty ratified.  Politics ain't exactly my thing.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #69 on: 02/24/2013 07:06 am »
Yeah.  The pointy thing appears on the Orion demo flight in September 2014 off of a Delta Quattro Heavey from KSC.  The SpaceX Heavey is to be demoed in 2013 (according to spacex.com) at Vandenberg, and is SANS pointy thing.  Both launchers are (at this moment of history) not man rated.  So the playing field for new manned heavy lift launch entries is as wide open as can be. 

The only man rated launcher with more legacy than a Russian launch system is Wan Hu's chair from around the 16th century.

We probably need another quarterly report soon (Wall Street isn't really a drag strip for new technology.  20-21st century quarterly reports are meant to help to slow down the risk of innovation suprises vs the status quo). 

Go for early and often.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #70 on: 02/24/2013 09:47 pm »
Speaking of quarterly updates, I think I've come up with a less expensive re-design (re-re-re-design?) for this mess.  And this time, I can actually give a price tag: $250 million.

In brief, Phoenix would remain the same, Artemis would be reduced to a mass of 10 tonnes (and get all its scientific instrumentation back), and Apex would be completely scrapped.  A 38 t upper stage would be developed instead.  The upper stage would give either spacecraft (remember, they're now both 10 tonnes) enough delta-v to depart LEO and enter LLO.

The launch vehicle will be changed to Falcon Heavy and a lunar landing will be conducted over the course of two launches - one to deliver Artemis into LLO and one to deliver Phoenix and crew into LLO.  Cost for both launches should be about $105,160,499.  The remaining $149 million goes to the spacecraft and upper stages.

Two tourists would pay $125 million each to walk on the Moon, which is about 1/12 the cost of the same trip with Golden Spike.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #71 on: 02/27/2013 04:47 am »
I've always wondered about these cheap fare trips to the moon.  When they say you can go to the moon for let's say $125 mil a passenger... Does that also include the cost for return to Earth?

You could get the return vehicle back into LEO and run out of funds for recovery.  Apollo obviously needed a Navy to recover the capsules.  I though this extra cost was really to motivation behind the Space Shuttle.  Reentry predictions with a variable cargo mass on return trajectory from the moon could be an absolute "HAMWEIGH".

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #72 on: 02/28/2013 12:43 am »
I've always wondered about these cheap fare trips to the moon.  When they say you can go to the moon for let's say $125 mil a passenger... Does that also include the cost for return to Earth?

You could get the return vehicle back into LEO and run out of funds for recovery.  Apollo obviously needed a Navy to recover the capsules.  I though this extra cost was really to motivation behind the Space Shuttle.  Reentry predictions with a variable cargo mass on return trajectory from the moon could be an absolute "HAMWEIGH".
Return trip's easy enough... the landing team would most likely consist of a pickup truck, a transponder system, and an ambulance.  Land landings should be fairly inexpensive (when compared to mobilizing an entire naval fleet).

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-045-DFRC.html
This essentially describes the Earth landing system I plan on using.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #73 on: 02/28/2013 04:08 am »
Looks good.  Recommend to start from the end and continue work backwards.

How does the paraglider deploy its parachutes after reentry? This NASA demo only did a drop from relatively slow/low altitude (in an age where the space shuttle was reentering at mach 25+).  Looks like the vehicle already had straps on the outside to deploy the highly intricate/complex paraglider.  A direct return trajectory & reentry from the moon will make the reentry speeds significantly higher than the shuttle.

I'm going to read more about that paraglider reentry config.  Never saw this before (demo was done when I was in school and we didn't have the internet or NASASPACEFLIGHT.COM).

Despite your refusal to comply with UN treaties, you at least have a good firm configuration to start the Thok design (which ironically occurs at the end of the mission). 
« Last Edit: 02/28/2013 04:11 am by RigelFive »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #74 on: 03/01/2013 02:12 am »
Looks good.  Recommend to start from the end and continue work backwards.

How does the paraglider deploy its parachutes after reentry? This NASA demo only did a drop from relatively slow/low altitude (in an age where the space shuttle was reentering at mach 25+).  Looks like the vehicle already had straps on the outside to deploy the highly intricate/complex paraglider.  A direct return trajectory & reentry from the moon will make the reentry speeds significantly higher than the shuttle.

I'm going to read more about that paraglider reentry config.  Never saw this before (demo was done when I was in school and we didn't have the internet or NASASPACEFLIGHT.COM).

Despite your refusal to comply with UN treaties, you at least have a good firm configuration to start the Thok design (which ironically occurs at the end of the mission). 
At least it's been proven at sub-sonic velocity.  Frankly, I think it's reasonably workable.

Speaking of the UN treaties, the changes I've made to Artemis include the re-installation of scientific equipment that was removed back in December.  Shouldn't be much harm done there.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #75 on: 03/01/2013 02:22 am »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #76 on: 03/01/2013 02:30 am »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Indeed.  Just a little bit of leg-pulling, methinks.

EDIT: Rigel makes a good point.  Forgive my ignorance.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2013 05:18 pm by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #77 on: 03/02/2013 07:35 am »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Yeah well.  In one month from now, I'll start a thread to revise it online...

Current coalition of the willing:
Australia, Austria, Belgium, Chile, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, and Uruguay have ratified it. France, Guatemala, India and Romania have signed but have not ratified it.

According to the web media, there could be a tipping point for ratifying the Moon treaty. How about this quote:

"Until the day that firm plans are made for the extraction of extraterrestrial resources by private entities, the Moon Treaty and its validity will remain in question."
- The Space Review

Link:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2047/1

So what that Space Review article says to me is, upon the mere completion of a plan.... The Moon Treaty will suddenly become valid IN THE SAME DAY!  Project Thok could just be that plan!!!
« Last Edit: 03/02/2013 07:39 am by RigelFive »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #78 on: 03/02/2013 05:30 pm »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Yeah well.  In one month from now, I'll start a thread to revise it online...

Current coalition of the willing:
Australia, Austria, Belgium, Chile, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, and Uruguay have ratified it. France, Guatemala, India and Romania have signed but have not ratified it.

According to the web media, there could be a tipping point for ratifying the Moon treaty. How about this quote:

"Until the day that firm plans are made for the extraction of extraterrestrial resources by private entities, the Moon Treaty and its validity will remain in question."
- The Space Review

Link:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2047/1

So what that Space Review article says to me is, upon the mere completion of a plan.... The Moon Treaty will suddenly become valid IN THE SAME DAY!  Project Thok could just be that plan!!!
You make an excellent point.  So, just so I don't wind up being the person who mucks about with regulations and possibly ruins other people's attempts at lunar exploration:

Project Thoth has no intentions of extracting extraterrestrial resources for profit.  We only intend to explore the Moon peacefully and leave the lunar environment as un-disturbed as we can.  The only form of lunar resource extraction we will participate in is the removal of lunar surface samples for detailed study back on Earth.

Sounds pretty good, methinks.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #79 on: 03/02/2013 10:57 pm »
The act of JUST planning to move rocks across large distances and having it change the basis of laws / international treaties makes my brain spin worse than the paradoxical phenomenons of time travel. 

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