Author Topic: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study  (Read 31966 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #20 on: 01/23/2013 02:32 pm »
No.  Ebb Flail Glow.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #21 on: 01/23/2013 09:43 pm »
Part 5 of 4:  A Random Thought.

Another un-exciting day has resulted in a bit of doodling, and a thought for a relatively inexpensive (2/5 the cost of a Saturn V) circumlunar flight using Phoenix and an Artemis-derived kerelox upper stage (or ADUS), done in two launches.

The first launch would carry Phoenix in its standard 10 tonne configuration to LEO using an Apex I (single CCU version).  The spacecraft, already designed for 14 days in space, would be able to remain in a parking orbit (ready for TLI) for a week.

The second launch, again using Apex I, would loft a 21 tonne kerelox upper stage, ADUS, into LEO to rendezvous and dock with the Phoenix.  AUDS would then burn to depletion to fling Phoenix on a six day trip around the Moon.  Phoenix would carry a complete supply of fuel on the voyage should an abort or some major course correction be required.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #22 on: 01/24/2013 08:03 am »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #23 on: 01/24/2013 08:19 am »
There are two types of people.  Those that design launch vehicles and tell you what you cant have as payload.  Then there are those who design payloads, and ask for someone to go build a launch vehicle for it.

The Project Thok concept appears to designed by someone who is a payloads centric person.  To me, this is where this stuff should really start.  Just figure out what you want to do on the moon first, then design a launcher later.  SLS appears to put a brick wall before a cart and then that said cart before the horse (perhaps more like a dumb mule).  We'll be redesigning SLS for millenia until the spacecraft is designed first.

If you take a look at this link below, there are some magnificent drawings of the Apollo LEM.  Ive always been fascinated with Apollo and it all occurred when I was too little to appreciate it all.  It is really fun to see how much detail was put into Apollo - as well as see how much is missing.

Link:
http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATSystems.htm 

I think you've got a significant challenge in your concept.  You need to modify (generate an ECR) the LEM design to add more fuel.

To me, the LEM looks like something that Wile E Coyote would design because it is a bunch of thin sheets and tubes strapped to a bunch of explosives.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2013 08:37 am by RigelFive »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #24 on: 01/24/2013 01:06 pm »
There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #25 on: 01/24/2013 07:55 pm »
There are two types of people.  Those that design launch vehicles and tell you what you cant have as payload.  Then there are those who design payloads, and ask for someone to go build a launch vehicle for it.

The Project Thok concept appears to designed by someone who is a payloads centric person...

/snip

..To me, the LEM looks like something that Wile E Coyote would design because it is a bunch of thin sheets and tubes strapped to a bunch of explosives.

I'm one of those "payload first, LV later" people, yes. :D

I appreciate the drawings of the LEM, by the way.  Agreed, it is impressive to see the work that went into such an elegant machine.  Apollo is pretty removed from my lifetime, and I, unfortunately, never had the opportunity to witness history firsthand.

Referring to the concern about fuel mass in the decent stage, if I removed the scientific equipment in the quadrants (remember, a separate "truck" would be used to deliver a greater mass of equipment to the surface) and replace them with full - size fuel tanks (and also add half - size tanks beneath the landing leg outriggers), that would bring the fuel mass up to the needed 15 tonnes.

There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.
;D
« Last Edit: 01/25/2013 02:17 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #26 on: 01/25/2013 03:52 am »
Yes.  That is good.  Remove all the science equipment from the LEM. Correct answer.

Now that you have added mass for fuel.  Have you included changes with the control systems, structure and/or propulsion systems?

This vehicle has new dynamics which affect the attitude and primary thrust control.  The structure has to support the potential to land harder, and the propulsion systems may need more thrust.  Since you ditched the science systems, the only unintended consequences may be that you need less communications and less power.

You probably need a will needa new simulator to train astronauts.


Offline Patchouli

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #27 on: 01/25/2013 03:55 am »
There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.

Congress is mostly composed of the latter.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2013 03:56 am by Patchouli »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #28 on: 01/25/2013 04:24 am »
Yes.  That is good.  Remove all the science equipment from the LEM. Correct answer.

Now that you have added mass for fuel.  Have you included changes with the control systems, structure and/or propulsion systems?

This vehicle has new dynamics which affect the attitude and primary thrust control.  The structure has to support the potential to land harder, and the propulsion systems may need more thrust.  Since you ditched the science systems, the only unintended consequences may be that you need less communications and less power.

You probably need a will needa new simulator to train astronauts.



Fortunately, Artemis's ascent stage will remain un-changed from Apollo's LEM, so there shouldn't be too much of a concern with the landing gear.  The tanks'll burn to depletion to land the thing on the lunar surface, so in the end, it should be slightly lighter than the Apollo LEM.  IIRC, the gear on the LEM was somewhat over-designed as well.  Not 100% confident in structural stability, though.

Propulsions systems shouldn't be too much of a problem.  Worst case scenario I can imagine is an extra set of RCS quads mounted to the descent stage (closer to the COG).

Training shouldn't be too bad, either.  After all, Phoenix is going to have completely unique flight dynamics, so they'd have to get used to that.

EDIT:  Putting the RCS quads on the descent stage doesn't appear to be too new of an idea... I know that I shouldn't be citing period (1968) films here, but the lander from "Countdown" had that setup.  They were mounted pretty low, too...
« Last Edit: 01/26/2013 02:30 am by MattJL »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #29 on: 01/26/2013 04:10 am »
Part 6 of 4  (:P) : The Thoth Semi - Androgynous Docking System (TSADS)

So I've succeeded in rather badly spraining my right knee (not something I really planned for over the weekend) today, which means that I have ample time to mention/think about things relating to Thoth.  We'll start with the TSA docking system.

As shown in the attached image (apologies for it being crude), the TSADS consists of two 1-meter hatches, the active hatch consisting of a pneumatic ram with a spring wrapped around it so as to enable it to retract in a vacuum.  This forms the probe.  The passive drogue is simply a cone with a hole in the vertex.

On the outside of the hatches are the sets of rings that hold the 12 latches and the 12 latch receptacles.  Each latch consists of a bolt mounted to a mechanism that, when rotated, causes the bolt to extend outwards and into the latch receptacle.  I don't quite know how to describe it, but think doorknob or deadbolt.  There are 12 rotary actuators mounted in Phoenix's docking tunnel to fire the bolts.

Now, I say "semi-androgynous" because Artemis would have the capability to moor to a failed active adapter using four externally-mounted latches around the outside of the latch rings.  They would line up with latch receptacles on the outside of the active adapter, thus making emergency crew transfer possible without an EVA.
« Last Edit: 01/26/2013 04:11 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #30 on: 01/26/2013 07:11 am »
Remeber, never design thermal exhaust ports right below the main ports.  And use something stronger than ray shielding to protect from proton torpedos. Good luck!

New ITAR rules posted up on other thread (add this to list of 11+ reasons we're not going back to the moon).  Other thread contributors believe ITAR restrictions belong to 'any' launch vehicle.... Likely this includes even Project Thok.

Quote
Are there any ITAR adepts out there who could comment on whether top-level TPMs for other civilian launch vehicles have fallen under ITAR?

ITAR is applicable to any launch vehicle

The question has to do with performance parameters rather than specific vehicles. However, is information about the thrust, Isp, mass to orbit etc figures for Pegasus, Delta IV, Atlas V, Falcon prohibited from public disclosure under ITAR?


« Last Edit: 01/26/2013 07:19 am by RigelFive »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #31 on: 01/26/2013 02:27 pm »
There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.

Congress is mostly composed of the latter.

Congress is definitely in that third group.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #32 on: 01/26/2013 06:50 pm »
New ITAR rules posted up on other thread (add this to list of 11+ reasons we're not going back to the moon).  Other thread contributors believe ITAR restrictions belong to 'any' launch vehicle.... Likely this includes even Project Thok.

(I'll take your advice about photon torpedoes and thermal exhaust ports, don't worry).

I hope I'm understanding this correctly, but so long as I don't sell any part of Apex or Thoth to anyone overseas, I don't have to worry about ITAR?

Well, then, how am I going to make money off of flown lucites?  ;)

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #33 on: 01/27/2013 01:18 am »


Congress is definitely in that third group.

Well they did write ITAR a law which pretty much has failed at it's mission of preventing the proliferation of ballistic missile technology.
Now what it has succeeded at was crippling the US aerospace industry.

Though the removal of satellite technology from ITAR regulation was a step in the right direction.

I think crew vehicles and cryogenic LVs at least the stages and engines also should be exempted.

I can still see a need for regulation of certain parts of the navigation system though these also are often protected by NDAs.
« Last Edit: 01/27/2013 01:19 am by Patchouli »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #34 on: 01/27/2013 01:56 am »
The goal of ITAR was to cripple the booming Chinese satellite industry..

Anyway, get back on topic.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #35 on: 01/28/2013 01:23 am »
Part something of something: Doing Some Math.

I decided to stop trusting my original back of the envelope numbers (100 t to orbit, 33 t to TLI) and do some math (using the Schillinglator) regarding the performance of Apex V.

And I was pleasantly surprised.  My estimates were pretty darn close to the better estimates.  LEO payload is projected to be between 75,388 - 109,387 kg and TLI performance (using Apollo's free return trajectory profile) of between 24,501 - 37,973 kg.

Even a "worst-case" Apex (one on the lower end of the predictions) would still be able to fulfill a lunar mission by assembling Artemis and Phoenix in lunar orbit.  Artemis can perform LOI on its own, and Phoenix can carry up a 5 ton or so LOI stage.  It'd be more expensive, but it could still get the job done.

Also worst comes to worst would be Apex VII... which would conceivably be the most powerful rocket in history, barely out-doing Ares V.  That'll probably be something to talk about in the future.


EDIT:  Well, I just learned why you shouldn't fully count on things you write on envelopes... but that's for a post a bit in the future.
« Last Edit: 01/28/2013 01:49 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #36 on: 01/28/2013 06:45 am »
Yes.  Math can be tricky.

When estimating all the weights and performance parameters of a launch vehicle... rather than using envelopes, napkins and stickies, you can use the sage and tempered tools on QuantumG's website/blog. You can input all of your ITAR prohibited numbers on his non-US website to determine the performance of the multinational Project Thok elements.

http://quantumg.net/rocketeq.html

According to QuantumGs post below, you've doubled the mass to the moon vs a Falcon 9 or Delta Quatro Heavy.  Perhaps less mass to TLI than a Saturn V.   As ObiWan would say... May the Force be with you.  LOL.   :D

http://quantumg.blogspot.com/2010/10/thoughts-on-spacex-lunar-architecture.html



« Last Edit: 01/28/2013 07:15 am by RigelFive »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #37 on: 01/28/2013 07:17 am »
A tool is only as good as the skill of the craftsman using it.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #38 on: 01/28/2013 11:31 pm »
Thanks for the links, Rigel, and thanks for the site/blog, Quantum.  Don't think I'll be too concerned with ITAR, I'll just keep a few things a bit more hush-hush.  Y'all can keep a secret, right? ;)

Apex VII, the uber heavy lifter, would have a LEO payload of 150 t, and a TLI payload of 53 t.  Not half bad, still follows my two rules of thumb that gave me the original estimates.  Apex IX was what I was thinking of earlier... that thing's a monster.

So we've got a pretty good LV down... I think I'll spend another post talking about Phoenix instead of Artemis or Apex, which is where the main unknowns have been.

A tool is only as good as the skill of the craftsman using it.

Very, very true.


EDIT: I think I'll slow down on new installments until I have something lengthy to discuss/change regarding to Apex, Artemis, or Phoenix.
« Last Edit: 01/30/2013 04:28 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #39 on: 02/02/2013 09:16 am »
Thanks for the links, Rigel, and thanks for the site/blog, Quantum.  Don't think I'll be too concerned with ITAR, I'll just keep a few things a bit more hush-hush.  Y'all can keep a secret, right? ;)

A tool is only as good as the skill of the craftsman using it.

Very, very true.


EDIT: I think I'll slow down on new installments until I have something lengthy to discuss/change regarding to Apex, Artemis, or Phoenix.
The topic of technology readiness comes up very frequently while you are designing any sort of complex thing. 

If you consider the history of the steam locomotive, it was really only a relevant technology for about 100 years.  From its design in the UK in the 18th century into the early 20th century - the steam locomotive technology was transfered across the nations until it was made obsolete by several newer technologies.

The 100th anniversary of Robert Goddards patent on the liquid rocket engine occurs in 2014.  If you consider 1930 as the first use of the liquid rocket (for military purposes in Germany...) given that the technologies for transportation stay current for about a century, you may have about 10-15 years left where the liquid rocket may even continue to be a relevant technology worth any investment.

You may be designing something of a relic by the time you are ready to launch.

ITAR is important, but obviously the rocket engine is an old technology that has already been exported across this warlike planet.

I'd rather study trains...

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