Author Topic: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study  (Read 31963 times)

Offline MattJL

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Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« on: 01/21/2013 04:22 am »
Part 1 of 3: Background and the Workhorse of the Fleet:  Apex.

(I do hope that this is in the right place... didn't feel too Advanced Concept-y to me).

Well, this has taken a bit of courage to write, and I really hope this idea doesn’t seem too outlandish.  I hope that this doesn’t seem too much like an advertisement, as I’m really throwing this out there with the hopes of it getting torn apart mercilessly.  This has been in my head for a while, and I think it needs to get out.

So I’ve been generating this idea for about six months now as a commercial approach to a manned lunar return with the goal of lowering cost and increasing flexibility of the system.  I call it Thoth, after the Egyptian god of the Moon.  The Thoth system consists of a launch vehicle family (Apex) and two spacecraft, the 10-ton Phoenix and the 23-ton Artemis lunar lander, which I will talk about in parts 2 and 3.  But this first installment will focus on the workhorse LV – Apex.

The Apex LV family is based around a common element:  The Common Core Unit, or CCU.  The CCU consists of two stages, the first of which is 6.6 meters in diameter and 25 meters tall.  The first stage, or A-I, is similar in design to the S-IB save for being a monolithic tank and the deletion of the 8 fins around the base.  A cluster of 8 H-1 class (900 kN) engines (again, the same as the S-IB) would be mounted at the base.  The second stage of the CCU, or A-II, would be heavily based off the S-IVB as used on the Saturn V (that is, able to be restarted).  The A-II, however, would have the added ability to cross-feed fuel between stages so as to improve performance and lighten a multiple CCU vehicle.  As it stands, three variants within the Apex family could be constructed, each with a varying number of cores.  The Apex I LV would be a standard 1-CCU LV and be able to loft about 21 tonnes to LEO.  Apex III, consisting of 3 CCUs, would be able to loft about 63 tonnes to LEO and 20 tonnes to the Moon.  Apex V, the granddaddy of them all, consisting of 4 CCUs around a core of 1 CCU, would be able to loft 105 tonnes to LEO and 33 tonnes to the Moon.  So here we have a series of launch vehicles that are flexible and capable of serving commercial launch markets without the cost of maintaining multiple different production lines.

To explain how the Apex V would work, I have a quote from another topic I created (“HLV made from multiple common two-stage cores).  Note that I’m using the designations S-IB and S-IVB instead of A-I and A-II:

“I've finally got enough time to explain my logic, mainly that the Apex vehicle (as I've decided to call this thing) would have enough propellant to get a payload to the Moon based off the Saturn V's burn time values.

So the first stage of the vehicle (5 CCUs) has the same burn time (150 s) as the S-IC.  The five CCUs provide slightly more thrust than the S-IC (36 kN, compared to the 33.85 kN of the S-IC), so the first stage is more than capable of matching the S-IC's performance.

The second flight phase of the Apex LV would see all 5 J-2 engines on the upper CCU stages burning all at once for 367 seconds, with the outer 4 stages feeding the center engine.  The S-IVB type stages have just enough hydrolox to feed the center engine (assuming 1/4 of the propellant from the outer stages is diverted into the center stage, which leaves each outer stage with 383 s of propellant, and the inner stage with the required 367 seconds of propellant).  This leaves about 16 seconds of residual propellant in the outboard S-IVBs which probably will not be used, but fueled anyway.  Propellant could be spread out between all 5 engines, extending their burn time for heavier payloads.

At separation of the outer upper CCU stages, the center S-IVB completes the burn to orbit (depleting about 86 s worth of propellant) and then TLI (which burns to depletion).

Since these are the Apollo spacecraft numbers (same amount of thrust and similar mdot in all stages), but with a slightly better performance lower stage, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Apex could loft 45 t to the Moon.”

I believe my original conclusions (as quoted) about the payload of Apex V are a tiny bit optimistic, to say the least.

The image below shows the Apex V as would look at launch.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #1 on: 01/21/2013 04:24 am »
Part 2 of 3:  The Phoenix CSM

The Phoenix CSM is designed to be a small spacecraft with a delta-v of 1.1 km/s, enough to leave lunar orbit or de-orbit from LEO.  LOI with the Artemis LM will be covered in Part 3.

Phoenix is not be a large spacecraft.  The command module is only slightly smaller than the Apollo command module (6.6 cubic meters as opposed to 6.7) and the entire vehicle, when fueled, would have a mass of only 10 tonnes.  The SM is based off of the 7K-LOK, save for the addition of dual 1 kW solar arrays, both of which are able to be rotated 180 degrees in either direction.  This allows the spacecraft (with 1 “flipped” solar panel) to preform a barbecue roll.

Mass breakdown:
Dry mass: 6 tonnes
Wet mass: 10 tonnes
Crew capacity: 3 (commander, lunar module pilot, command module pilot)
Duration: 14 days

The image below shows Phoenix (above) docked to Artemis as it would look on – orbit, minus the 1 kW solar arrays.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #2 on: 01/21/2013 04:24 am »
Part 3 of 3:  The Artemis Lunar Module

The Artemis Lunar Module is markedly similar to the Grumman Lunar Module as used during Apollo, except for an increased fuel capacity in the descent stage to bring the total wet mass up to 23 tonnes.  The 18 – ton decent stage would function as the LOI and landing stage in a similar fashion to the Soviet lunar spacecraft.  The spacecraft would be extracted from the core A-II stage after TLI by Phoenix. 

As the LM by itself would not have the ability to deliver a LRV to the surface (or any large experiments package), the Artemis descent stage would be used as a “truck” to land up to 5 tonnes of payload on the lunar surface.  This would offer greater scientific capability than any of the Apollo missions and pave the way for a manned lunar base.

Mass breakdown:
Dry mass: 6 tonnes (?)
Wet mass: 23 tonnes
Crew capacity: 2 (commander, lunar module pilot), 3 if required
Duration:  3 days without Extended Duration Consumable (EDC) module (delivered by “truck”), 10 days with EDC

So that’s it for Thoth.  Please tear this apart mercilessly, as I’m certain that there’s a lot of holes in this idea.

Offline kkattula

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #3 on: 01/21/2013 06:10 pm »
...So I’ve been generating this idea for about six months now as a commercial approach to a manned lunar return with the goal of lowering cost and increasing flexibility of the system.
...

1)  So your approach to lowering cost is to develop a whole new launch vehicle in 3 versions?  Using engines that aren't in production anymore? Or developing new equivalents of those engines? I suggest that is a very expensive way to go.  If you had a workable design for a new RLV that would be inexpensive to run in the long run, that might justify LV development.
 
2) Have you considered that your 3 & 5 CCU versions have to separate their A-I stages from their A-II stages, at the same time? Hairy!
 
3) One of the big advantages of Delta IV Heavy and Falcon Heavy, is that they can throttle the centre core , and in the latter case eventually cross feed, to extend the burn time of the centre core. You can't do that with 3 upper stages. 
 
4)  It would make far more sense to have extended tank, (and perhaps extra engine), versions of a single central upper stage. In which case why not just use DIVH or FH?
 
 
It seems to me you're trying to re-invent Apollo without having to build the whole Saturn V, instead using multiple Saturn I.
 
Why? It's 2013 not 1963. 50 years later we don't have do it the way they did. We can take advantage of the vast advances in materials, computing, engines, etc, and the existing LV market, to produce a modern architecture.  See Golden Spike for instance.  I wouldn't chose their exact architecture, but it's workable.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2013 06:12 pm by kkattula »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #4 on: 01/21/2013 07:10 pm »

1)  So your approach to lowering cost is to develop a whole new launch vehicle in 3 versions?  Using engines that aren't in production anymore? Or developing new equivalents of those engines? I suggest that is a very expensive way to go.  If you had a workable design for a new RLV that would be inexpensive to run in the long run, that might justify LV development.


I imagined a modular LV.  Cores could be added as desired for a mission (well, one with a payload of 60 or 100 t).  On developing new engines, you make a good point that I really didn't think of.  Also, wasn't the S-I stage designed to be recoverable?  I remember reading something about that a while ago.

Quote

2) Have you considered that your 3 & 5 CCU versions have to separate their A-I stages from their A-II stages, at the same time? Hairy!


Yes.  Couldn't they separate as a unit, though?  It was my limited understanding that DIVH dropped all of its CBCs at the same time.

(Methinks I've been playing too much Kerbal Space Program. :P)

Quote

3) One of the big advantages of Delta IV Heavy and Falcon Heavy, is that they can throttle the centre core , and in the latter case eventually cross feed, to extend the burn time of the centre core. You can't do that with 3 upper stages. 


It wasn't my intention to do so... mainly because the thought of that didn't even cross my mind.

Quote

4)  It would make far more sense to have extended tank, (and perhaps extra engine), versions of a single central upper stage. In which case why not just use DIVH or FH?


The planned payload is way too heavy for DIVH or FH, with the exception of Phoenix.  It could probably get to the Moon on a free-return trajectory (no room for a LOI stage) on either vehicle (most likely FH), though.  Artemis is way, way too heavy to get much of anywhere, unless one used a 33 - odd ton upper stage to fling it to the Moon (it has enough delta v for LOI by itself), but that's probably too massive for the FH (53 t to LEO, this thing would weigh 58 t).  Although, I suppose, that would be workable.  It'd cost $116,844 to do that if SpaceX's predictions (1k per pound) are accurate.

Quote

It seems to me you're trying to re-invent Apollo without having to build the whole Saturn V, instead using multiple Saturn I.

Why? It's 2013 not 1963. 50 years later we don't have do it the way they did. We can take advantage of the vast advances in materials, computing, engines, etc, and the existing LV market, to produce a modern architecture.  See Golden Spike for instance.  I wouldn't chose their exact architecture, but it's workable.


Well, in a sense, I am re-inventing Apollo, except this idea has far stronger roots in the Soviet lunar program (masses of the vehicles, using the LM for LOI,  design of the CSM).  I also started generating this idea a good while ago (a while before Golden Spike, actually) and to be honest, I designed the payload before the LV, so it doesn't quite fit with any other LVs (except, again, the possibility of using FH).

(I will confess that I'm a just sucker for the Saturn family of rockets, especially Saturn IB, and I feel that they were incredibly capable rockets.  I'd be nice to see them live up to their full potential)

My conclusion is that this idea has more holes than a colander made out of Swiss cheese, but that's what I get for putting only six months (on and off) worth of effort into it.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #5 on: 01/22/2013 04:30 am »
I like the approach, which appears to take an existing configuration that has been successfully demonstrated and make changes.  This is what the engineering process really is about.  The typical terminology is that you are making an engineering change request (ECR).  You send the ECR to a technical review board (TRB) for approval. 

I've heard it said that government programs are never really cancelled, they temporarily fade and return with better marketing and changes (and lots of ECRs).  I really believe that since there are scientists still looking at moon samples returned from Apollo, the program continues in the background today.

The ECR process is routinely performed to reduce cost, deliver new product improvements, improve production rate, and to manage obsolescence.

Being that companies invest in their products so heavily, they tend to think of their products as intellectual property. 

I think one of the major aerospace companies likely still owns something in terms of the intellectual property for the Apollo program.  You could check with your legal team, but if you wanted to sell your own version of a 1969 Ford - I'd wonder what the consequences really would be?

The ten+ other issues:
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.
3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).
4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time.  (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.
7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.
8). Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.
9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.
10). The moon could explode at any moment.
11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.

I say, dream big for new exploration (except Mars).
« Last Edit: 01/22/2013 04:34 am by RigelFive »

Offline Oberon_Command

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #6 on: 01/22/2013 04:41 am »
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.

Wait, what? How do said policies do that?

Quote
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time.  (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).

You're not counting Gemini 6A/7, I'm guessing?

Quote
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.

Weren't water ice deposits recently discovered at the poles?

edit: ARRRR, I's been had!
« Last Edit: 01/22/2013 05:53 am by Oberon_Command »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #7 on: 01/22/2013 05:18 am »

9. Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.


Here in particular I respectfully disagree.  By no means have we determined every single scientific conclusion about the Moon.  Apollo samples to this day continue to reveal new things about the origins of our closest neighbor.  And we've only got 820 odd kilograms of the stuff.  Imagine what could be garnered from more samples from more diverse locations.  Heck, we've never even touched the far side of the Moon!

Apollo was terminated, IMO, when things started getting really science-y.  The big thing was the Lunar Roving Vehicle, which enabled moonwalkers to go a great distance over the surface in less time (there's a really great telephoto shot of a LM taken by one of the astronauts from about a mile away.  It's in "Voices From the Moon.").  I know that the example of the orange soil from Apollo 17 has been used time and again and might seem worn, but that's a prime example of something that was completely un-expected.  Nobody saw that coming!

How many more orange soil moments are there waiting to happen?  What discoveries lie out there that will probably change our understanding of both our planet and our solar system, hidden under the cold black sky, waiting to be found by man?

And all that's just hanging over our heads every night, quietly mocking and yet beckoning us.

EDIT: Curse you, Poe's Law!  Also, I don't read things thoroughly, unless they have numbers in front of them. :P
« Last Edit: 01/22/2013 06:10 am by MattJL »

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #8 on: 01/22/2013 05:38 am »

The ten+ other issues:
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.
3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).
4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time.  (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.
7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.
8). Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.
9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.
10). The moon could explode at any moment.
11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.

Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
# 11 is more important.  Does anyone even make pencils anymore?  That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways.  There are not enough pencils.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #9 on: 01/22/2013 05:46 am »

The ten+ other issues:
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.
3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).
4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time.  (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.
7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.
8). Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.
9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.
10). The moon could explode at any moment.
11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.

Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
# 11 is more important.  Does anyone even make pencils anymore?  That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways.  There are not enough pencils.

Should we not consider the relative lack of slide rules as well?  There's a lack of people who know how to use them, too.  :P
« Last Edit: 01/22/2013 05:56 am by MattJL »

Offline kch

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #10 on: 01/22/2013 05:50 am »

The ten+ other issues:
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.
3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).
4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time.  (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.
7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.
8). Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.
9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.
10). The moon could explode at any moment.
11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.

Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
# 11 is more important.  Does anyone even make pencils anymore?  That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways.  There are not enough pencils.

... or so we've been lead to believe ... ;)

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #11 on: 01/22/2013 05:54 am »

The ten+ other issues:
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.
3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).
4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time.  (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.
7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.
8). Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.
9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.
10). The moon could explode at any moment.
11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.

Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
# 11 is more important.  Does anyone even make pencils anymore?  That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways.  There are not enough pencils.

Should we not consider the relative lack of slide rules as well?  There's a lack of people who know how to use them, too.
We need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory.  Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery.  Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are.  We also need pocket protectors on large quantities.  Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #12 on: 01/22/2013 06:01 am »

The ten+ other issues:
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.
3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).
4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time.  (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.
7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.
8). Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.
9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.
10). The moon could explode at any moment.
11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.

Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
# 11 is more important.  Does anyone even make pencils anymore?  That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways.  There are not enough pencils.

Should we not consider the relative lack of slide rules as well?  There's a lack of people who know how to use them, too.
We need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory.  Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery.  Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are.  We also need pocket protectors on large quantities.  Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?
We're gonna need a lotta sub-contractors for this one.

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #13 on: 01/22/2013 06:05 am »
We need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory.  Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery.  Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are.  We also need pocket protectors on large quantities.  Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?
We're gonna need a lotta sub-contractors for this one.
Typical cost plus?  Or would a COTS approach work?

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #14 on: 01/22/2013 06:12 am »
We need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory.  Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery.  Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are.  We also need pocket protectors on large quantities.  Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?
We're gonna need a lotta sub-contractors for this one.
Typical cost plus?  Or would a COTS approach work?
Depends on the stockpiles we've got.  Fortunately, there should be enough in private collections to use as a basis for a new production run.  It'll take time to study the existing samples.
« Last Edit: 01/22/2013 06:14 am by MattJL »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #15 on: 01/22/2013 02:14 pm »
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.

Wait, what? How do said policies do that?

Easy.  By cancelling Apollo, and not building on its demonstrated success.  Not only that policy, but also the policy which retired shuttle without a replacement.  The new policy prevents humans from getting to LEO on government vehicles.  This policy is scheduled to be in place until, what, 2022?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #16 on: 01/22/2013 02:18 pm »

9. Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo.

You cannot prove that assertion.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #17 on: 01/22/2013 02:18 pm »
Pocket protector production could be readily funded by kickstater.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #18 on: 01/22/2013 07:04 pm »
Pocket protector production could be readily funded by kickstater.
Yes!

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #19 on: 01/23/2013 07:45 am »


10). The moon could explode at any moment.
11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.

Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
#10 is true.  This administration said that they would not condone the destruction of planets.  But they didn't say anything about destroying moons.

...Long nigh to four weeks ago, NASA conducted a viscous attack upon the Earth's Moon using two probes which they named Ebb and Flow.  NASA attempted to 'double tap' our Lunar satellite to initiate a chain reaction in the core and cause it to explode...

If you rearrange the letters from the words Grail Ebb Flow, you can easily determine what is clearly going on up there.  You can spell the words BFG Rail Below.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #20 on: 01/23/2013 02:32 pm »
No.  Ebb Flail Glow.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #21 on: 01/23/2013 09:43 pm »
Part 5 of 4:  A Random Thought.

Another un-exciting day has resulted in a bit of doodling, and a thought for a relatively inexpensive (2/5 the cost of a Saturn V) circumlunar flight using Phoenix and an Artemis-derived kerelox upper stage (or ADUS), done in two launches.

The first launch would carry Phoenix in its standard 10 tonne configuration to LEO using an Apex I (single CCU version).  The spacecraft, already designed for 14 days in space, would be able to remain in a parking orbit (ready for TLI) for a week.

The second launch, again using Apex I, would loft a 21 tonne kerelox upper stage, ADUS, into LEO to rendezvous and dock with the Phoenix.  AUDS would then burn to depletion to fling Phoenix on a six day trip around the Moon.  Phoenix would carry a complete supply of fuel on the voyage should an abort or some major course correction be required.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #22 on: 01/24/2013 08:03 am »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #23 on: 01/24/2013 08:19 am »
There are two types of people.  Those that design launch vehicles and tell you what you cant have as payload.  Then there are those who design payloads, and ask for someone to go build a launch vehicle for it.

The Project Thok concept appears to designed by someone who is a payloads centric person.  To me, this is where this stuff should really start.  Just figure out what you want to do on the moon first, then design a launcher later.  SLS appears to put a brick wall before a cart and then that said cart before the horse (perhaps more like a dumb mule).  We'll be redesigning SLS for millenia until the spacecraft is designed first.

If you take a look at this link below, there are some magnificent drawings of the Apollo LEM.  Ive always been fascinated with Apollo and it all occurred when I was too little to appreciate it all.  It is really fun to see how much detail was put into Apollo - as well as see how much is missing.

Link:
http://www.ehartwell.com/LM/SCATSystems.htm 

I think you've got a significant challenge in your concept.  You need to modify (generate an ECR) the LEM design to add more fuel.

To me, the LEM looks like something that Wile E Coyote would design because it is a bunch of thin sheets and tubes strapped to a bunch of explosives.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2013 08:37 am by RigelFive »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #24 on: 01/24/2013 01:06 pm »
There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #25 on: 01/24/2013 07:55 pm »
There are two types of people.  Those that design launch vehicles and tell you what you cant have as payload.  Then there are those who design payloads, and ask for someone to go build a launch vehicle for it.

The Project Thok concept appears to designed by someone who is a payloads centric person...

/snip

..To me, the LEM looks like something that Wile E Coyote would design because it is a bunch of thin sheets and tubes strapped to a bunch of explosives.

I'm one of those "payload first, LV later" people, yes. :D

I appreciate the drawings of the LEM, by the way.  Agreed, it is impressive to see the work that went into such an elegant machine.  Apollo is pretty removed from my lifetime, and I, unfortunately, never had the opportunity to witness history firsthand.

Referring to the concern about fuel mass in the decent stage, if I removed the scientific equipment in the quadrants (remember, a separate "truck" would be used to deliver a greater mass of equipment to the surface) and replace them with full - size fuel tanks (and also add half - size tanks beneath the landing leg outriggers), that would bring the fuel mass up to the needed 15 tonnes.

There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.
;D
« Last Edit: 01/25/2013 02:17 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #26 on: 01/25/2013 03:52 am »
Yes.  That is good.  Remove all the science equipment from the LEM. Correct answer.

Now that you have added mass for fuel.  Have you included changes with the control systems, structure and/or propulsion systems?

This vehicle has new dynamics which affect the attitude and primary thrust control.  The structure has to support the potential to land harder, and the propulsion systems may need more thrust.  Since you ditched the science systems, the only unintended consequences may be that you need less communications and less power.

You probably need a will needa new simulator to train astronauts.


Offline Patchouli

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #27 on: 01/25/2013 03:55 am »
There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.

Congress is mostly composed of the latter.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2013 03:56 am by Patchouli »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #28 on: 01/25/2013 04:24 am »
Yes.  That is good.  Remove all the science equipment from the LEM. Correct answer.

Now that you have added mass for fuel.  Have you included changes with the control systems, structure and/or propulsion systems?

This vehicle has new dynamics which affect the attitude and primary thrust control.  The structure has to support the potential to land harder, and the propulsion systems may need more thrust.  Since you ditched the science systems, the only unintended consequences may be that you need less communications and less power.

You probably need a will needa new simulator to train astronauts.



Fortunately, Artemis's ascent stage will remain un-changed from Apollo's LEM, so there shouldn't be too much of a concern with the landing gear.  The tanks'll burn to depletion to land the thing on the lunar surface, so in the end, it should be slightly lighter than the Apollo LEM.  IIRC, the gear on the LEM was somewhat over-designed as well.  Not 100% confident in structural stability, though.

Propulsions systems shouldn't be too much of a problem.  Worst case scenario I can imagine is an extra set of RCS quads mounted to the descent stage (closer to the COG).

Training shouldn't be too bad, either.  After all, Phoenix is going to have completely unique flight dynamics, so they'd have to get used to that.

EDIT:  Putting the RCS quads on the descent stage doesn't appear to be too new of an idea... I know that I shouldn't be citing period (1968) films here, but the lander from "Countdown" had that setup.  They were mounted pretty low, too...
« Last Edit: 01/26/2013 02:30 am by MattJL »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #29 on: 01/26/2013 04:10 am »
Part 6 of 4  (:P) : The Thoth Semi - Androgynous Docking System (TSADS)

So I've succeeded in rather badly spraining my right knee (not something I really planned for over the weekend) today, which means that I have ample time to mention/think about things relating to Thoth.  We'll start with the TSA docking system.

As shown in the attached image (apologies for it being crude), the TSADS consists of two 1-meter hatches, the active hatch consisting of a pneumatic ram with a spring wrapped around it so as to enable it to retract in a vacuum.  This forms the probe.  The passive drogue is simply a cone with a hole in the vertex.

On the outside of the hatches are the sets of rings that hold the 12 latches and the 12 latch receptacles.  Each latch consists of a bolt mounted to a mechanism that, when rotated, causes the bolt to extend outwards and into the latch receptacle.  I don't quite know how to describe it, but think doorknob or deadbolt.  There are 12 rotary actuators mounted in Phoenix's docking tunnel to fire the bolts.

Now, I say "semi-androgynous" because Artemis would have the capability to moor to a failed active adapter using four externally-mounted latches around the outside of the latch rings.  They would line up with latch receptacles on the outside of the active adapter, thus making emergency crew transfer possible without an EVA.
« Last Edit: 01/26/2013 04:11 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #30 on: 01/26/2013 07:11 am »
Remeber, never design thermal exhaust ports right below the main ports.  And use something stronger than ray shielding to protect from proton torpedos. Good luck!

New ITAR rules posted up on other thread (add this to list of 11+ reasons we're not going back to the moon).  Other thread contributors believe ITAR restrictions belong to 'any' launch vehicle.... Likely this includes even Project Thok.

Quote
Are there any ITAR adepts out there who could comment on whether top-level TPMs for other civilian launch vehicles have fallen under ITAR?

ITAR is applicable to any launch vehicle

The question has to do with performance parameters rather than specific vehicles. However, is information about the thrust, Isp, mass to orbit etc figures for Pegasus, Delta IV, Atlas V, Falcon prohibited from public disclosure under ITAR?


« Last Edit: 01/26/2013 07:19 am by RigelFive »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #31 on: 01/26/2013 02:27 pm »
There are two types of people.

No.  Three types.  Those who can count, and those who can't.

Congress is mostly composed of the latter.

Congress is definitely in that third group.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #32 on: 01/26/2013 06:50 pm »
New ITAR rules posted up on other thread (add this to list of 11+ reasons we're not going back to the moon).  Other thread contributors believe ITAR restrictions belong to 'any' launch vehicle.... Likely this includes even Project Thok.

(I'll take your advice about photon torpedoes and thermal exhaust ports, don't worry).

I hope I'm understanding this correctly, but so long as I don't sell any part of Apex or Thoth to anyone overseas, I don't have to worry about ITAR?

Well, then, how am I going to make money off of flown lucites?  ;)

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #33 on: 01/27/2013 01:18 am »


Congress is definitely in that third group.

Well they did write ITAR a law which pretty much has failed at it's mission of preventing the proliferation of ballistic missile technology.
Now what it has succeeded at was crippling the US aerospace industry.

Though the removal of satellite technology from ITAR regulation was a step in the right direction.

I think crew vehicles and cryogenic LVs at least the stages and engines also should be exempted.

I can still see a need for regulation of certain parts of the navigation system though these also are often protected by NDAs.
« Last Edit: 01/27/2013 01:19 am by Patchouli »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #34 on: 01/27/2013 01:56 am »
The goal of ITAR was to cripple the booming Chinese satellite industry..

Anyway, get back on topic.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #35 on: 01/28/2013 01:23 am »
Part something of something: Doing Some Math.

I decided to stop trusting my original back of the envelope numbers (100 t to orbit, 33 t to TLI) and do some math (using the Schillinglator) regarding the performance of Apex V.

And I was pleasantly surprised.  My estimates were pretty darn close to the better estimates.  LEO payload is projected to be between 75,388 - 109,387 kg and TLI performance (using Apollo's free return trajectory profile) of between 24,501 - 37,973 kg.

Even a "worst-case" Apex (one on the lower end of the predictions) would still be able to fulfill a lunar mission by assembling Artemis and Phoenix in lunar orbit.  Artemis can perform LOI on its own, and Phoenix can carry up a 5 ton or so LOI stage.  It'd be more expensive, but it could still get the job done.

Also worst comes to worst would be Apex VII... which would conceivably be the most powerful rocket in history, barely out-doing Ares V.  That'll probably be something to talk about in the future.


EDIT:  Well, I just learned why you shouldn't fully count on things you write on envelopes... but that's for a post a bit in the future.
« Last Edit: 01/28/2013 01:49 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #36 on: 01/28/2013 06:45 am »
Yes.  Math can be tricky.

When estimating all the weights and performance parameters of a launch vehicle... rather than using envelopes, napkins and stickies, you can use the sage and tempered tools on QuantumG's website/blog. You can input all of your ITAR prohibited numbers on his non-US website to determine the performance of the multinational Project Thok elements.

http://quantumg.net/rocketeq.html

According to QuantumGs post below, you've doubled the mass to the moon vs a Falcon 9 or Delta Quatro Heavy.  Perhaps less mass to TLI than a Saturn V.   As ObiWan would say... May the Force be with you.  LOL.   :D

http://quantumg.blogspot.com/2010/10/thoughts-on-spacex-lunar-architecture.html



« Last Edit: 01/28/2013 07:15 am by RigelFive »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #37 on: 01/28/2013 07:17 am »
A tool is only as good as the skill of the craftsman using it.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #38 on: 01/28/2013 11:31 pm »
Thanks for the links, Rigel, and thanks for the site/blog, Quantum.  Don't think I'll be too concerned with ITAR, I'll just keep a few things a bit more hush-hush.  Y'all can keep a secret, right? ;)

Apex VII, the uber heavy lifter, would have a LEO payload of 150 t, and a TLI payload of 53 t.  Not half bad, still follows my two rules of thumb that gave me the original estimates.  Apex IX was what I was thinking of earlier... that thing's a monster.

So we've got a pretty good LV down... I think I'll spend another post talking about Phoenix instead of Artemis or Apex, which is where the main unknowns have been.

A tool is only as good as the skill of the craftsman using it.

Very, very true.


EDIT: I think I'll slow down on new installments until I have something lengthy to discuss/change regarding to Apex, Artemis, or Phoenix.
« Last Edit: 01/30/2013 04:28 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #39 on: 02/02/2013 09:16 am »
Thanks for the links, Rigel, and thanks for the site/blog, Quantum.  Don't think I'll be too concerned with ITAR, I'll just keep a few things a bit more hush-hush.  Y'all can keep a secret, right? ;)

A tool is only as good as the skill of the craftsman using it.

Very, very true.


EDIT: I think I'll slow down on new installments until I have something lengthy to discuss/change regarding to Apex, Artemis, or Phoenix.
The topic of technology readiness comes up very frequently while you are designing any sort of complex thing. 

If you consider the history of the steam locomotive, it was really only a relevant technology for about 100 years.  From its design in the UK in the 18th century into the early 20th century - the steam locomotive technology was transfered across the nations until it was made obsolete by several newer technologies.

The 100th anniversary of Robert Goddards patent on the liquid rocket engine occurs in 2014.  If you consider 1930 as the first use of the liquid rocket (for military purposes in Germany...) given that the technologies for transportation stay current for about a century, you may have about 10-15 years left where the liquid rocket may even continue to be a relevant technology worth any investment.

You may be designing something of a relic by the time you are ready to launch.

ITAR is important, but obviously the rocket engine is an old technology that has already been exported across this warlike planet.

I'd rather study trains...

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #40 on: 02/02/2013 01:44 pm »
You may be designing something of a relic by the time you are ready to launch.

This generally true aphorism does not suggest a path forward.  Furthermore, the observation only holds partially true in some arenas of human effort.  Consider the wheel; substantially unimproved for well over a hundred years.

Quote
...given that the technologies for transportation stay current for about a century...

What about the automobile?  Well over a hundred years old.  It is definitely not a given that this is so, based on the one example. 
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #41 on: 02/02/2013 07:26 pm »
You may be designing something of a relic by the time you are ready to launch.

This generally true aphorism does not suggest a path forward.  Furthermore, the observation only holds partially true in some arenas of human effort.  Consider the wheel; substantially unimproved for well over a hundred years.

Quote
...given that the technologies for transportation stay current for about a century...

What about the automobile?  Well over a hundred years old.  It is definitely not a given that this is so, based on the one example. 

Trains are still in use they simply changed engines from coal (steam) to oil and electricity.

Traditional automobiles use internal combustion engines.  You know who is selling automobiles with electric motors.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #42 on: 02/03/2013 04:41 am »
There's always going to be people with new ideas (I'm not one of them).  Same with any form of technology.  Anyway, to get back on topic...

Part ? of 3: A Possible Re-Design for Phoenix.

(I've been motivated to return to this after encountering Beemans for the first time in my life.  The big challenge now is making two packs last for more than 10 days...)

Phoenix, as I mentioned earlier, is heavily based off of 7K-LOK.  As a result, it isn't quite the same diameter as the CSM, but happens to be the same length.

Thus here is my problem.  I'm going to have to encase Phoenix in a faring to preserve the aerodynamics of the SLA/CSM/BPC.  Thing is, I'm concerned about the "flange" at the end of the service module having to anchor both the outside of the SLA and the faring around Phoenix.

An alternative would be to completely-re design Phoenix into, essentially, a 10 ton Apollo spacecraft with a shorter service module and solar panels.  Except, using Apollo as a rough guide, the command module would weigh about 6 tonnes, which would make the service module roughly 27 tonnes, driving up the payload for Apex, increasing the number of CCUs used, changing the design of the launch pad...

I need quite a bit of help help with this, methinks.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2013 04:42 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #43 on: 02/03/2013 08:55 am »
See, complex systems design is iterative. 

I can't keep straight what elements you're defining.  I think you have nine elements to this system:

1) Artemis = lunar lander
2) Phoenix = command module
3) Apex I = launch vehicle
4) Apex III = launch vehicle
5) Apex V = launch vehicle
6) Apex VI = launch vehicle
7) Apex IX = launch vehicle
8) Thoth launch site
9) Mission cargo to lunar surface

Here is the question... Which element do you work on first, and which one second, and so on?

So the number of combinations that you will have to consider in to get the design finalized may be equal to 9! = 362,880 (assuming you settle on this number of system elements). If you spend a day working on each of the elements in a more or less random order, there is a theory that says you may be completed in about 993.5 years.  Just short of a millennium. 

As an example, the cargo going to the lunar surface interacts with elements 1-8.  So you tweak the Artemis, which means you tweak the one or more of the launch vehicles, which means you tweak the launch site.... and the snowball continues.

You will require a lot of help. 
« Last Edit: 02/03/2013 09:01 am by RigelFive »

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #44 on: 02/03/2013 05:28 pm »
See, complex systems design is iterative. 

I can't keep straight what elements you're defining.  I think you have nine elements to this system:

1) Artemis = lunar lander
2) Phoenix = command module
3) Apex I = launch vehicle
4) Apex III = launch vehicle
5) Apex V = launch vehicle
6) Apex VI = launch vehicle
7) Apex IX = launch vehicle
8. Thoth launch site
9) Mission cargo to lunar surface

Here is the question... Which element do you work on first, and which one second, and so on?

So the number of combinations that you will have to consider in to get the design finalized may be equal to 9! = 362,880 (assuming you settle on this number of system elements). If you spend a day working on each of the elements in a more or less random order, there is a theory that says you may be completed in about 993.5 years.  Just short of a millennium. 

As an example, the cargo going to the lunar surface interacts with elements 1-8.  So you tweak the Artemis, which means you tweak the one or more of the launch vehicles, which means you tweak the launch site.... and the snowball continues.

You will require a lot of help. 

Yeah, I've been noticing that as well.  Thoth is the umbrella term for the whole study, and Apex VII and IX are potential launch vehicles (to be developed later).

Methinks that the list you've created would be a good order for working on elements, except starting with the CSM (Phoenix) instead of Artemis, because that's where the issues I mentioned earlier lie.

Starting in a bit, I'm going to do a numbers oriented study of Phoenix and see what can be done with it.  This time, it'll have some order to it.

So the order, just to clarify, is:

1. Phoenix - command module
2. Artemis - lunar module
3. Apex I - launch vehicle
4. Apex III - launch vehicle
5. Apex V - launch vehicle
6. Valiant - mission cargo to lunar surface.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #45 on: 02/04/2013 06:50 am »
Two questions:
1) What (if any) cargo do you want to launch from the lunar surface?

2) What elements are you going to use to utilize for reentry to Earth?
----
I think you'll need to add more elements, and you might NOT want to carry too much of the Earth reentry junk all the way to the moon and back.

Perhaps add an element to rendezvous with the lunar team/cargo that is returning to Earth to transfer it/them from the lunar transfer vehicle and allow it/them to return to earth with a dedicated system (rather than risk an Apollo 13 scenario).

I would include future elements (APEX VII and IX) now.  The cost growth of Apollo was a major contributor to the program cancellation.  The concept that a shuttle would be more affordable and be able do everything that was envisioned was unfounded.  (There was talk of taking nuclear waste up to space on the space shuttle to dispose of it).

Don't forget.... Nixon's advisors are said to have told the President to shut down the entire human space flight program. The details are on exhibit in the National archives until June 2013.
« Last Edit: 02/04/2013 06:54 am by RigelFive »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #46 on: 02/04/2013 05:00 pm »
Two questions:
1) What (if any) cargo do you want to launch from the lunar surface?

2) What elements are you going to use to utilize for reentry to Earth?
----
I think you'll need to add more elements, and you might NOT want to carry too much of the Earth reentry junk all the way to the moon and back.

Perhaps add an element to rendezvous with the lunar team/cargo that is returning to Earth to transfer it/them from the lunar transfer vehicle and allow it/them to return to earth with a dedicated system (rather than risk an Apollo 13 scenario).

Good advice, but the cargo lander (Valiant) is designed to be unmanned and make a one-way trip.  The only reason it's able to deliver 5 tonnes to the surface is because of the deletion of the ascent stage.  (Basically, it's an Artemis descent stage with a pressurized cylinder on top).  Remember, that stage is capable of delivering 15 tons into orbit and 5 tons to the surface.  It's more than capable of doing the job.

Quote
I would include future elements (APEX VII and IX) now.  The cost growth of Apollo was a major contributor to the program cancellation.  The concept that a shuttle would be more affordable and be able do everything that was envisioned was unfounded.  (There was talk of taking nuclear waste up to space on the space shuttle to dispose of it).

You make a good point.  I'll include the ultra-heavy lifters in development, but probably devote less time to them versus Apex I, III, or V.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #47 on: 02/05/2013 05:57 am »
Ahhh, I see.  Not only trying to break the laws of Newtonian physics.

If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Article 7 Paragraph 1 of the 1979 Moon Treaty states:
1. In exploring and using the moon, States Parties shall take measures to prevent the disruption of the existing balance of its environment whether by introducing adverse changes in that environment, by its harmful contamination through the introduction of extra-environmental matter or otherwise. States Parties shall also take measures to avoid harmfully affecting the environment of the earth through the introduction of extraterrestrial matter or otherwise.

Since you took all of the scientific equipment out of the lander, you will not have the intent of performing a scientific mission.  So you wont be permitted to land per Article 6.

Since your vehicle is unmanned, there is no intent for exploration. 

I wasnt kidding when Nixon's advisors recommended stopping the human spaceflight program in the 70s.

Offline jhoblik

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #48 on: 02/05/2013 06:23 am »
Ahhh, I see.  Not only trying to break the laws of Newtonian physics.

If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Article 7 Paragraph 1 of the 1979 Moon Treaty states:
1. In exploring and using the moon, States Parties shall take measures to prevent the disruption of the existing balance of its environment whether by introducing adverse changes in that environment, by its harmful contamination through the introduction of extra-environmental matter or otherwise. States Parties shall also take measures to avoid harmfully affecting the environment of the earth through the introduction of extraterrestrial matter or otherwise.

Since you took all of the scientific equipment out of the lander, you will not have the intent of performing a scientific mission.  So you wont be permitted to land per Article 6.

Since your vehicle is unmanned, there is no intent for exploration. 

I wasnt kidding when Nixon's advisors recommended stopping the human spaceflight program in the 70s.
It was same with Falcon 9. I think it will change after several successfully launches. Customer will choose cheapest and safest variant.  If Falcon Heavy proof to be safe they will line up.

Offline jhoblik

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #49 on: 02/05/2013 06:44 am »
Ahhh, I see.  Not only trying to break the laws of Newtonian physics.

If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Article 7 Paragraph 1 of the 1979 Moon Treaty states:
1. In exploring and using the moon, States Parties shall take measures to prevent the disruption of the existing balance of its environment whether by introducing adverse changes in that environment, by its harmful contamination through the introduction of extra-environmental matter or otherwise. States Parties shall also take measures to avoid harmfully affecting the environment of the earth through the introduction of extraterrestrial matter or otherwise.

Since you took all of the scientific equipment out of the lander, you will not have the intent of performing a scientific mission.  So you wont be permitted to land per Article 6.

Since your vehicle is unmanned, there is no intent for exploration. 

I wasnt kidding when Nixon's advisors recommended stopping the human spaceflight program in the 70s.
I know that Elon is making mistakes. But because his vision and ability to shift and redirect he will probably succeed. Compare to big companies that use be lead by similar visionary like Boeing,Lockheed,... they are today just profit stock producer, engineer dreams are crush by next quarter stock revenue.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #50 on: 02/05/2013 11:13 am »
Ahhh, I see.  Not only trying to break the laws of Newtonian physics.

If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Article 7 Paragraph 1 of the 1979 Moon Treaty states:
1. In exploring and using the moon, States Parties shall take measures to prevent the disruption of the existing balance of its environment whether by introducing adverse changes in that environment, by its harmful contamination through the introduction of extra-environmental matter or otherwise. States Parties shall also take measures to avoid harmfully affecting the environment of the earth through the introduction of extraterrestrial matter or otherwise.

Since you took all of the scientific equipment out of the lander, you will not have the intent of performing a scientific mission.  So you wont be permitted to land per Article 6.

Since your vehicle is unmanned, there is no intent for exploration. 

I wasnt kidding when Nixon's advisors recommended stopping the human spaceflight program in the 70s.

No, I'm never satisfied with just mucking about with the laws of physics.  That's a day job.  :P

But if the US didn't ratify the Moon Treaty, then as a US citizen, what do I have to concern myself with?


(...or have I missed another "gotcha.")
EDIT: Yep. :D
« Last Edit: 02/05/2013 06:56 pm by MattJL »

Offline RanulfC

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #51 on: 02/05/2013 12:56 pm »
Ahhh, I see.  Not only trying to break the laws of Newtonian physics.

If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Article 7 Paragraph 1 of the 1979 Moon Treaty states:
1. In exploring and using the moon, States Parties shall take measures to prevent the disruption of the existing balance of its environment whether by introducing adverse changes in that environment, by its harmful contamination through the introduction of extra-environmental matter or otherwise. States Parties shall also take measures to avoid harmfully affecting the environment of the earth through the introduction of extraterrestrial matter or otherwise.

Since you took all of the scientific equipment out of the lander, you will not have the intent of performing a scientific mission.  So you wont be permitted to land per Article 6.

Since your vehicle is unmanned, there is no intent for exploration. 

I wasnt kidding when Nixon's advisors recommended stopping the human spaceflight program in the 70s.

No, I'm never satisfied with just mucking about with the laws of physics.  That's a day job.  :P

But if the US didn't ratify the Moon Treaty, then as a US citizen, what do I have to concern myself with?


(...or have I missed another "gotcha.")
I think RigelFive is "kidding" simply because in the same post he mentiones both the 1979 Moon treaty AND the sale of extraterrestrial 'land" which is (BTW) directly prohibited under that same treaty :)

I'd also point out that of the "space-going" nations the only ones who DID ratify the 1979 treaty was the USSR and currently that's one of the treaties "Russia" does not feel obliged to follow. (IIRC China has recently "ratified" the treaty but they weren't really being strict about it... So far)

As long as you don't launch from Austrailia or China you should be fine.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #52 on: 02/05/2013 07:44 pm »
Ahhh, I see.  Not only trying to break the laws of Newtonian physics.

If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Article 7 Paragraph 1 of the 1979 Moon Treaty states:
1. In exploring and using the moon, States Parties shall take measures to prevent the disruption of the existing balance of its environment whether by introducing adverse changes in that environment, by its harmful contamination through the introduction of extra-environmental matter or otherwise. States Parties shall also take measures to avoid harmfully affecting the environment of the earth through the introduction of extraterrestrial matter or otherwise.

Since you took all of the scientific equipment out of the lander, you will not have the intent of performing a scientific mission.  So you wont be permitted to land per Article 6.

Since your vehicle is unmanned, there is no intent for exploration. 

I wasnt kidding when Nixon's advisors recommended stopping the human spaceflight program in the 70s.

No, I'm never satisfied with just mucking about with the laws of physics.  That's a day job.  :P

But if the US didn't ratify the Moon Treaty, then as a US citizen, what do I have to concern myself with?


(...or have I missed another "gotcha.")
I think RigelFive is "kidding" simply because in the same post he mentiones both the 1979 Moon treaty AND the sale of extraterrestrial 'land" which is (BTW) directly prohibited under that same treaty :)

I'd also point out that of the "space-going" nations the only ones who DID ratify the 1979 treaty was the USSR and currently that's one of the treaties "Russia" does not feel obliged to follow. (IIRC China has recently "ratified" the treaty but they weren't really being strict about it... So far)

As long as you don't launch from Austrailia or China you should be fine.

Randy


Wasn't planning on launching from either place.  Launch site (somewhere in the contiguous US) will probably be determined after I refine some of the vehicle numbers.  It's a tie between starting a spaceport in Brownsville, Texas, using the existing facilities down in Cape Kennedy, or building a new pad in Wallops Island, Virginia.

That being said, it's interesting to note that the difference in payload capability between Wallops and Woomera is pretty slim - we're talking about 200 kg different.  Hmm...

Anyway, in the name of organization, I'm currently sketching out an 2013 first quarter report for Thoth that'll focus on Phoenix and the re-design it underwent a few days ago.  Probably be easier to write/read than taking up a huge chunk of space on the thread.  Also, it'll look more professional. :D
« Last Edit: 02/05/2013 07:45 pm by MattJL »

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #53 on: 02/07/2013 05:17 am »
Almost finished with the the development report for Year 2013, Quarter 1 (Y2013 Q1), will be uploading some time tomorrow as it is rather late.

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #54 on: 02/08/2013 06:43 am »
Almost finished with the the development report for Year 2013, Quarter 1 (Y2013 Q1), will be uploading some time tomorrow as it is rather late.
Chuck this idea into the Thoth program plan....

There are several moons and asteroids that are known to be in what is referred to as a horseshoe orbit.  One example is the moon Janus around Saturn.  Another is a relatively large Trojan-like asteroid called 3753 Cruithne that is orbiting Earth.

See if you can get a lunar transfer vehicle into a horseshoe orbital cycle, between Earth and the moon,and make it modular so that you can haul large payloads to the moon for less energy than a direct lunar trajectory. 

This might not work, but Ill have to do the calcs.  QuantumG doesn't have a calculator for this.  So I'm going to have to whip out the ol ivory slide rule.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2013 06:44 am by RigelFive »

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #55 on: 02/08/2013 06:33 pm »
Almost finished with the the development report for Year 2013, Quarter 1 (Y2013 Q1), will be uploading some time tomorrow as it is rather late.
Chuck this idea into the Thoth program plan....

There are several moons and asteroids that are known to be in what is referred to as a horseshoe orbit.  One example is the moon Janus around Saturn.  Another is a relatively large Trojan-like asteroid called 3753 Cruithne that is orbiting Earth.

See if you can get a lunar transfer vehicle into a horseshoe orbital cycle, between Earth and the moon,and make it modular so that you can haul large payloads to the moon for less energy than a direct lunar trajectory. 

This might not work, but Ill have to do the calcs.  QuantumG doesn't have a calculator for this.  So I'm going to have to whip out the ol ivory slide rule.
Whoo boy, if we're talking late-phase (post 2030) development relating to Thoth, that's just scratching the surface...

I've been sketching out ideas for a manned Mars flyby using a crew of two and an A-II wet workshop, a manned Mars landing using the same, an easy to assemble space station using a hybrid modules (a 100 ton dry workshop and an A-II wet workshop together, which would enable a tremendous amount of living space to be put into orbit in one launch), and a lunar Skylab (called MoonLab, which is the project I have developed the most).  The best part about these ideas is that they all use hardware originally developed for Thoth.

I call it Thoth Applications Program, or TAP for short.  Just like Apollo.

Anyway, the Y2013 Q1 report's going to be delayed a bit.  I need to do a re-write and add in the Gemini B - inspired addition of a 6.5 m3 habitation module aft of the heat shield of the command module.  That change may be enough to warrant a separate post later.

EDIT: Meant to say 18 m3, on top of the 2.4 cubic meters of the descent module.  That's 25 cubic meters of living space, or four Soyuzes, four Apollos, two Dragons, or 1/3 the habitable volume of the Space Shuttle!  All for a mass of 10 tonnes.

EDIT II: Meant to say 20.5 cubic meters.  Haha, I can't do math.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2013 10:13 pm by MattJL »

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #56 on: 02/09/2013 01:15 am »
Well, here's the first development report for Project Thoth.  Hopefully it isn't too horribly written.

(Also with the debut of the quickly-thrown-together insignia for Thoth).
« Last Edit: 02/09/2013 01:16 am by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #57 on: 02/09/2013 06:59 am »
Well, here's the first development report for Project Thoth.  Hopefully it isn't too horribly written.

(Also with the debut of the quickly-thrown-together insignia for Thoth).
I kind of like this sentence:
Quote
Potential factors that could influence this development schedule include major setbacks encountered in the remaining 40-45% of on-paper development, an inability to acquire materials, and the possibility of development taking longer than anticipated due to un-controllable outside forces.
So if we run out of paper on planet Earth, our children 15 generations from now will say, yes this report is still usable  - it was those darn uncontrollable forces again as well as an inability.

Shrink the logo - save paper .


Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #58 on: 02/09/2013 08:53 am »
Well, here's the first development report for Project Thoth.  Hopefully it isn't too horribly written.

(Also with the debut of the quickly-thrown-together insignia for Thoth).
I kind of like this sentence:
Quote
Potential factors that could influence this development schedule include major setbacks encountered in the remaining 40-45% of on-paper development, an inability to acquire materials, and the possibility of development taking longer than anticipated due to un-controllable outside forces.
So if we run out of paper on planet Earth, our children 15 generations from now will say, yes this report is still usable  - it was those darn uncontrollable forces again as well as an inability.

Shrink the logo - save paper .


:D

By saying "un-controllable forces," I meant school.  I know, I know, it's important and all, but it's just not mentally stimulating enough for my tastes. About half of Thoth up to this point was sketched out on notebook paper thanks to that.

(Hey, I made the logo black and white, so at least future generations will save on color toner... barring un-controllable outside forces. ;))

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #59 on: 02/09/2013 06:40 pm »
Off topic...

People going thru school are preoccupied with the complexities of what they will experience in industry.  People in industry are preoccupied with complexities of what they should have experienced in school.

There is a time for everything.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #60 on: 02/10/2013 12:54 am »
Off topic...

People going thru school are preoccupied with the complexities of what they will experience in industry.  People in industry are preoccupied with complexities of what they should have experienced in school.

There is a time for everything.
Agreed.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm starting to look into using large hydrolox engines for the first stage.  RS-68 would be ideal, per my estimates (2900 kN of thrust at sea level, using three would provide 8700 kN of thrust, a good 22% increase in performance over using 8 H-1s).  As a bonus, it may be possible to use the same engine in the second stage as well, resulting in a shorter stage).

If it were possible, I'd look into acquiring a handful of them from Pratt & Whitney (and/or ULA, I think).  It'd probably turn out to be cheaper in the long run.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #61 on: 02/10/2013 02:41 am »
Project Morpheus will probably want to sell Thorth its 19 kN methane/LOX engine for use in the lander.  10 engines should give the manned lander a good payload.

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #62 on: 02/10/2013 04:39 am »
Project Morpheus will probably want to sell Thorth its 19 kN methane/LOX engine for use in the lander.  10 engines should give the manned lander a good payload.
I certainly hope so.  While the descent stage of Artemis (the lunar lander) will not be able to use those engines, as it has to perform LOI and landing, the ascent stage would greatly benefit from them.

Let this be an open letter to anyone involved in Project Morpheus:  You've got a customer.

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #63 on: 02/13/2013 02:58 am »
In other advancements this week, it looks like Apex will use a few RS-68s.  Four per CCU, to be exact, a tremendous save in cost over using a bunch of H-1s and a J2-S with the bonus of increasing commonality between stages significantly.

There's a bit to talk about with this change, so to save me repeating myself, I'll just attach my on-paper work to this post.  Be forewarned: I have the handwriting of a doctor.

(Apologies if updating this topic is a bit sluggish, starting algebra in the middle of the year after a comparatively easy first semester is a real brain-frier).
« Last Edit: 02/13/2013 03:01 am by MattJL »

Offline hkultala

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #64 on: 02/13/2013 03:16 am »
Off topic...

People going thru school are preoccupied with the complexities of what they will experience in industry.  People in industry are preoccupied with complexities of what they should have experienced in school.

There is a time for everything.
Agreed.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm starting to look into using large hydrolox engines for the first stage.  RS-68 would be ideal, per my estimates (2900 kN of thrust at sea level, using three would provide 8700 kN of thrust, a good 22% increase in performance over using 8 H-1s).  As a bonus, it may be possible to use the same engine in the second stage as well, resulting in a shorter stage).

RS-68 cannot be used as a second stage engine.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25800.60

« Last Edit: 02/13/2013 03:17 am by hkultala »

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #65 on: 02/13/2013 03:35 am »
Off topic...

People going thru school are preoccupied with the complexities of what they will experience in industry.  People in industry are preoccupied with complexities of what they should have experienced in school.

There is a time for everything.
Agreed.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm starting to look into using large hydrolox engines for the first stage.  RS-68 would be ideal, per my estimates (2900 kN of thrust at sea level, using three would provide 8700 kN of thrust, a good 22% increase in performance over using 8 H-1s).  As a bonus, it may be possible to use the same engine in the second stage as well, resulting in a shorter stage).

RS-68 cannot be used as a second stage engine.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=25800.60


Looks like I dun goofed.

Well... that's interesting, to say the least.  To say the most, it looks like I might have to procure a couple of J2-Xs instead.  Either that or develop a completely new 1000 kN engine for the second stage, whichever one's cheaper.

I still think it's a good idea to stick with RS-68s for the first stage, though (greater thrust, Isp is better than H-1, ensures commonality with hydrolox upper stage)
« Last Edit: 02/13/2013 03:42 am by MattJL »

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #66 on: 02/15/2013 03:21 am »
Apologies for bumping the thread, but I have some excellent news to report.

I've tested a sample of C-1700 ablator, which turned out to be resoundingly successful!  Temperature on the exposed surface was roughly 1000 C, and the backside reached a temperature of 280 C - well within the tolerances of Phoenix's airframe.  Next challenge is to ensure it can insulate against the sort of heating I'd expect on return from the Moon - 5000 C - and per some crude math, I estimate that the heat shield on Phoenix will be between 7 and 10 centimeters thick.

Also, it's pretty inexpensive and un-complicated to manufacture, which will probably be a good thing when Phoenix begins flying regular flights (something that I don't expect to happen until the late 2030s at best).

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures at the moment, because it's for a  research project.  I'll try to get some soon, though.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #67 on: 02/16/2013 07:04 am »
In other advancements this week, it looks like Apex will use a few RS-68s.  Four per CCU, to be exact, a tremendous save in cost over using a bunch of H-1s and a J2-S with the bonus of increasing commonality between stages significantly.

There's a bit to talk about with this change, so to save me repeating myself, I'll just attach my on-paper work to this post.  Be forewarned: I have the handwriting of a doctor.

(Apologies if updating this topic is a bit sluggish, starting algebra in the middle of the year after a comparatively easy first semester is a real brain-frier).
Looks like you are moving faster than NASA in returning us to the moon. Great job.  You are also reducing the amount of paper usage by shrinking/eliminating the logo.

There is a pointy thing on top of the launch vehicle.  What is this thing supposed to do interms of functionality?  If you dont need it, you might be able to haul more stuff into orbit.

I am going to start a thread to see if we can rewrite the articles of the Moon Treaty.  We might be able to release the limitations on astronauts stuck in low earth orbit if we claim that the a New Moon Treaty was peer reviewed in public on a blog site and was considered 'open and notorious' policy.  Perhaps we can get Sweden or Pago Pago to ratify it first in order to get the ball rolling.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #68 on: 02/16/2013 06:44 pm »
In other advancements this week, it looks like Apex will use a few RS-68s.  Four per CCU, to be exact, a tremendous save in cost over using a bunch of H-1s and a J2-S with the bonus of increasing commonality between stages significantly.

There's a bit to talk about with this change, so to save me repeating myself, I'll just attach my on-paper work to this post.  Be forewarned: I have the handwriting of a doctor.

(Apologies if updating this topic is a bit sluggish, starting algebra in the middle of the year after a comparatively easy first semester is a real brain-frier).
Looks like you are moving faster than NASA in returning us to the moon. Great job.  You are also reducing the amount of paper usage by shrinking/eliminating the logo.

There is a pointy thing on top of the launch vehicle.  What is this thing supposed to do interms of functionality?  If you dont need it, you might be able to haul more stuff into orbit.

I am going to start a thread to see if we can rewrite the articles of the Moon Treaty.  We might be able to release the limitations on astronauts stuck in low earth orbit if we claim that the a New Moon Treaty was peer reviewed in public on a blog site and was considered 'open and notorious' policy.  Perhaps we can get Sweden or Pago Pago to ratify it first in order to get the ball rolling.
Pointy thing's the LES, which I hope is fairly important.  :P

Best of luck on getting the New Moon Treaty ratified.  Politics ain't exactly my thing.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #69 on: 02/24/2013 07:06 am »
Yeah.  The pointy thing appears on the Orion demo flight in September 2014 off of a Delta Quattro Heavey from KSC.  The SpaceX Heavey is to be demoed in 2013 (according to spacex.com) at Vandenberg, and is SANS pointy thing.  Both launchers are (at this moment of history) not man rated.  So the playing field for new manned heavy lift launch entries is as wide open as can be. 

The only man rated launcher with more legacy than a Russian launch system is Wan Hu's chair from around the 16th century.

We probably need another quarterly report soon (Wall Street isn't really a drag strip for new technology.  20-21st century quarterly reports are meant to help to slow down the risk of innovation suprises vs the status quo). 

Go for early and often.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #70 on: 02/24/2013 09:47 pm »
Speaking of quarterly updates, I think I've come up with a less expensive re-design (re-re-re-design?) for this mess.  And this time, I can actually give a price tag: $250 million.

In brief, Phoenix would remain the same, Artemis would be reduced to a mass of 10 tonnes (and get all its scientific instrumentation back), and Apex would be completely scrapped.  A 38 t upper stage would be developed instead.  The upper stage would give either spacecraft (remember, they're now both 10 tonnes) enough delta-v to depart LEO and enter LLO.

The launch vehicle will be changed to Falcon Heavy and a lunar landing will be conducted over the course of two launches - one to deliver Artemis into LLO and one to deliver Phoenix and crew into LLO.  Cost for both launches should be about $105,160,499.  The remaining $149 million goes to the spacecraft and upper stages.

Two tourists would pay $125 million each to walk on the Moon, which is about 1/12 the cost of the same trip with Golden Spike.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #71 on: 02/27/2013 04:47 am »
I've always wondered about these cheap fare trips to the moon.  When they say you can go to the moon for let's say $125 mil a passenger... Does that also include the cost for return to Earth?

You could get the return vehicle back into LEO and run out of funds for recovery.  Apollo obviously needed a Navy to recover the capsules.  I though this extra cost was really to motivation behind the Space Shuttle.  Reentry predictions with a variable cargo mass on return trajectory from the moon could be an absolute "HAMWEIGH".

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #72 on: 02/28/2013 12:43 am »
I've always wondered about these cheap fare trips to the moon.  When they say you can go to the moon for let's say $125 mil a passenger... Does that also include the cost for return to Earth?

You could get the return vehicle back into LEO and run out of funds for recovery.  Apollo obviously needed a Navy to recover the capsules.  I though this extra cost was really to motivation behind the Space Shuttle.  Reentry predictions with a variable cargo mass on return trajectory from the moon could be an absolute "HAMWEIGH".
Return trip's easy enough... the landing team would most likely consist of a pickup truck, a transponder system, and an ambulance.  Land landings should be fairly inexpensive (when compared to mobilizing an entire naval fleet).

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-045-DFRC.html
This essentially describes the Earth landing system I plan on using.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #73 on: 02/28/2013 04:08 am »
Looks good.  Recommend to start from the end and continue work backwards.

How does the paraglider deploy its parachutes after reentry? This NASA demo only did a drop from relatively slow/low altitude (in an age where the space shuttle was reentering at mach 25+).  Looks like the vehicle already had straps on the outside to deploy the highly intricate/complex paraglider.  A direct return trajectory & reentry from the moon will make the reentry speeds significantly higher than the shuttle.

I'm going to read more about that paraglider reentry config.  Never saw this before (demo was done when I was in school and we didn't have the internet or NASASPACEFLIGHT.COM).

Despite your refusal to comply with UN treaties, you at least have a good firm configuration to start the Thok design (which ironically occurs at the end of the mission). 
« Last Edit: 02/28/2013 04:11 am by RigelFive »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #74 on: 03/01/2013 02:12 am »
Looks good.  Recommend to start from the end and continue work backwards.

How does the paraglider deploy its parachutes after reentry? This NASA demo only did a drop from relatively slow/low altitude (in an age where the space shuttle was reentering at mach 25+).  Looks like the vehicle already had straps on the outside to deploy the highly intricate/complex paraglider.  A direct return trajectory & reentry from the moon will make the reentry speeds significantly higher than the shuttle.

I'm going to read more about that paraglider reentry config.  Never saw this before (demo was done when I was in school and we didn't have the internet or NASASPACEFLIGHT.COM).

Despite your refusal to comply with UN treaties, you at least have a good firm configuration to start the Thok design (which ironically occurs at the end of the mission). 
At least it's been proven at sub-sonic velocity.  Frankly, I think it's reasonably workable.

Speaking of the UN treaties, the changes I've made to Artemis include the re-installation of scientific equipment that was removed back in December.  Shouldn't be much harm done there.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #75 on: 03/01/2013 02:22 am »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #76 on: 03/01/2013 02:30 am »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Indeed.  Just a little bit of leg-pulling, methinks.

EDIT: Rigel makes a good point.  Forgive my ignorance.
« Last Edit: 03/02/2013 05:18 pm by MattJL »

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #77 on: 03/02/2013 07:35 am »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Yeah well.  In one month from now, I'll start a thread to revise it online...

Current coalition of the willing:
Australia, Austria, Belgium, Chile, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, and Uruguay have ratified it. France, Guatemala, India and Romania have signed but have not ratified it.

According to the web media, there could be a tipping point for ratifying the Moon treaty. How about this quote:

"Until the day that firm plans are made for the extraction of extraterrestrial resources by private entities, the Moon Treaty and its validity will remain in question."
- The Space Review

Link:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2047/1

So what that Space Review article says to me is, upon the mere completion of a plan.... The Moon Treaty will suddenly become valid IN THE SAME DAY!  Project Thok could just be that plan!!!
« Last Edit: 03/02/2013 07:39 am by RigelFive »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #78 on: 03/02/2013 05:30 pm »
If you use Valiant concept, you will not be compliant with the 1979 Moon Treaty and will likely have (by the time of the mission) invaded a territory on the lunar surface that has been purchased as extraterrestrial real estate (for $20/acre).

Tuning in after a bit...  You realize that the Moon Treaty has no standing legal basis here in the US of A?
Yeah well.  In one month from now, I'll start a thread to revise it online...

Current coalition of the willing:
Australia, Austria, Belgium, Chile, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands, Pakistan, Peru, Philippines, and Uruguay have ratified it. France, Guatemala, India and Romania have signed but have not ratified it.

According to the web media, there could be a tipping point for ratifying the Moon treaty. How about this quote:

"Until the day that firm plans are made for the extraction of extraterrestrial resources by private entities, the Moon Treaty and its validity will remain in question."
- The Space Review

Link:
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2047/1

So what that Space Review article says to me is, upon the mere completion of a plan.... The Moon Treaty will suddenly become valid IN THE SAME DAY!  Project Thok could just be that plan!!!
You make an excellent point.  So, just so I don't wind up being the person who mucks about with regulations and possibly ruins other people's attempts at lunar exploration:

Project Thoth has no intentions of extracting extraterrestrial resources for profit.  We only intend to explore the Moon peacefully and leave the lunar environment as un-disturbed as we can.  The only form of lunar resource extraction we will participate in is the removal of lunar surface samples for detailed study back on Earth.

Sounds pretty good, methinks.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #79 on: 03/02/2013 10:57 pm »
The act of JUST planning to move rocks across large distances and having it change the basis of laws / international treaties makes my brain spin worse than the paradoxical phenomenons of time travel. 

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #80 on: 03/03/2013 12:49 am »
The act of JUST planning to move rocks across large distances and having it change the basis of laws / international treaties makes my brain spin worse than the paradoxical phenomenons of time travel. 
Well, that's plain absurd.  It's rocks, for crying out loud!  Rocks!  I can go into my backyard, grab a couple, throw them in a box and mail them to Canada without having to go through a three ring circus at the U.N.  What's fundamentally so different about going to the Moon and grabbing a couple?

Oy vey.  I swear, if politics keeps getting in the way of science, we'll never get anything done.

Perhaps it'll take some newspace company to lobby for the US to turn the other way (against the Moon Treaty).  Either that, or we'll be stuck launching rockets from Grand Fenwick.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2013 12:53 am by MattJL »

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #81 on: 03/04/2013 02:56 am »
Time for updates!

1) Refined the design of Phoenix/Artemis even further and now have to rely upon the upper stage of FH to deliver either spacecraft to the vicinity of the Moon.  Mass of either vehicle is now 15.4 metric tons.

2) Sent an email to SpaceX asking them about both how much this would cost and if FH is able to do the job.  My estimates say yes, but I just wanted to confirm with the people who know what they're doing.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #82 on: 03/04/2013 05:21 am »
Good luck with the FH concept! Wow!

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #83 on: 03/05/2013 01:42 am »
Good luck with the FH concept! Wow!
I'll need it!  Still waiting on a response from SpaceX, but since I only got it out to them a matter of 24 hours ago (and on a non-business day), I'm going to spend the time until I get a reply working on real-world stuff.  Like getting people together to start doing something, and setting up the crowdfunding program.  That's really where I'm going to have to start.  No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

I have this uncanny feeling that I'm about to open a can of worms.  Well, I always wanted more excitement in my life...

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #84 on: 03/17/2013 01:23 am »
Update time again:

1) Had the opportunity to present the ablative heat shield (C-1700) at a science fair, did pretty well.

2) Still no response from SpaceX.  I'm assuming that my question was discarded of, so I'm going to stop waiting on it.

Offline RigelFive

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #85 on: 04/07/2013 03:51 am »
Almost finished with the the development report for Year 2013, Quarter 1 (Y2013 Q1), will be uploading some time tomorrow as it is rather late.
Chuck this idea into the Thoth program plan....

There are several moons and asteroids that are known to be in what is referred to as a horseshoe orbit.  One example is the moon Janus around Saturn.  Another is a relatively large Trojan-like asteroid called 3753 Cruithne that is orbiting Earth.

See if you can get a lunar transfer vehicle into a horseshoe orbital cycle, between Earth and the moon,and make it modular so that you can haul large payloads to the moon for less energy than a direct lunar trajectory. 

This might not work, but Ill have to do the calcs.  QuantumG doesn't have a calculator for this.  So I'm going to have to whip out the ol ivory slide rule.
Looks like the near earth asteroids might just be the destinations for Project Thoth!!  Check the latest and get yer Falcon Heavy ready!

Offline MattJL

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Re: Project Thoth - A Manned Lunar Return Study
« Reply #86 on: 03/10/2014 03:38 am »
So... it's been a while.  And in that while, loads of things have happened regarding this, um, hobby of mine.  (Including, but not limited to, a blog)

I have no other place for this question, so I think I'll just ask it here:  Is there anyone who is fluent in both Russian and English?  I might need some help with communication.

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