...So I’ve been generating this idea for about six months now as a commercial approach to a manned lunar return with the goal of lowering cost and increasing flexibility of the system. ...
1) So your approach to lowering cost is to develop a whole new launch vehicle in 3 versions? Using engines that aren't in production anymore? Or developing new equivalents of those engines? I suggest that is a very expensive way to go. If you had a workable design for a new RLV that would be inexpensive to run in the long run, that might justify LV development.
2) Have you considered that your 3 & 5 CCU versions have to separate their A-I stages from their A-II stages, at the same time? Hairy!
3) One of the big advantages of Delta IV Heavy and Falcon Heavy, is that they can throttle the centre core , and in the latter case eventually cross feed, to extend the burn time of the centre core. You can't do that with 3 upper stages.
4) It would make far more sense to have extended tank, (and perhaps extra engine), versions of a single central upper stage. In which case why not just use DIVH or FH?
It seems to me you're trying to re-invent Apollo without having to build the whole Saturn V, instead using multiple Saturn I. Why? It's 2013 not 1963. 50 years later we don't have do it the way they did. We can take advantage of the vast advances in materials, computing, engines, etc, and the existing LV market, to produce a modern architecture. See Golden Spike for instance. I wouldn't chose their exact architecture, but it's workable.
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.
5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time. (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).
6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.
9. Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.
Quote from: RigelFive on 01/22/2013 04:30 amThe ten+ other issues:1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time. (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.. Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.10). The moon could explode at any moment.11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
The ten+ other issues:1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time. (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.. Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.10). The moon could explode at any moment.11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.
Quote from: Jorge on 01/22/2013 05:31 amQuote from: RigelFive on 01/22/2013 04:30 amThe ten+ other issues:1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time. (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.. Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.10). The moon could explode at any moment.11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.# 11 is more important. Does anyone even make pencils anymore? That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways. There are not enough pencils.
Quote from: Eric Hedman on 01/22/2013 05:38 amQuote from: Jorge on 01/22/2013 05:31 amQuote from: RigelFive on 01/22/2013 04:30 amThe ten+ other issues:1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time. (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.. Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.10). The moon could explode at any moment.11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.# 11 is more important. Does anyone even make pencils anymore? That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways. There are not enough pencils.Should we not consider the relative lack of slide rules as well? There's a lack of people who know how to use them, too.
Quote from: MattJL on 01/22/2013 05:46 amQuote from: Eric Hedman on 01/22/2013 05:38 amQuote from: Jorge on 01/22/2013 05:31 amQuote from: RigelFive on 01/22/2013 04:30 amThe ten+ other issues:1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.2) United Nations policies would prevent astronauts from a singular country to land on the Moon.3) Ten minute seismic events (lunar quakes)-much of the Apollo lander structure is too thin. (can't tell, but if you were going to land with that chunk of hardware on to, the risk to the lunar crew just spiked).4) It cost an equivalent of $200 billion to develop the lunar program in today's dollars (out of reach even for most billionaires.)5). NASA has never had more than one manned mission with a transportation vehicle at a time. (Imagine if an commercial airline could only fly one plane at a time).6). There are no resources up there such as water/air.7). Logistics to return to Earth requires hiring a naval fleet.. Moon rocks are easier to look at in museums.9). Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo. There are thousands of pages of scientific results on the NASA websites.10). The moon could explode at any moment.11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.# 11 is more important. Does anyone even make pencils anymore? That is probably why we can't get back to the Moon anymore anyways. There are not enough pencils.Should we not consider the relative lack of slide rules as well? There's a lack of people who know how to use them, too.We need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory. Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery. Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are. We also need pocket protectors on large quantities. Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?
Quote from: Eric Hedman on 01/22/2013 05:54 amWe need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory. Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery. Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are. We also need pocket protectors on large quantities. Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?We're gonna need a lotta sub-contractors for this one.
We need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory. Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery. Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are. We also need pocket protectors on large quantities. Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?
Quote from: MattJL on 01/22/2013 06:01 amQuote from: Eric Hedman on 01/22/2013 05:54 amWe need to train people how to whittle them out of good pieces of hickory. Young people would be amazed at this piece of high tech machinery. Of course we would have to teach everybody younger than 45 what they are. We also need pocket protectors on large quantities. Who can we get to restart pocket protector production?We're gonna need a lotta sub-contractors for this one.Typical cost plus? Or would a COTS approach work?
Quote from: RigelFive on 01/22/2013 04:30 am1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.Wait, what? How do said policies do that?
1) United States space policy currently prevents humans from leaving low Earth orbit.
9. Scientific conclusions about the moon have all been determined, all new findings will be redundant with Apollo.
Pocket protector production could be readily funded by kickstater.
Quote from: RigelFive on 01/22/2013 04:30 am10). The moon could explode at any moment.11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.Heh. Good satirical list. You *almost* had me going until #10.
10). The moon could explode at any moment.11). Real designs need to be made on real drawing boards with real pencils.