Author Topic: Mining lunar ice  (Read 171102 times)

Offline Hop_David

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Mining lunar ice
« on: 06/21/2010 05:18 pm »
Chandrayan's Mini-SAR radar seems to have discovered abundant lunar water in sheets at least 2 meters thick.

Earlier lunar ISRU schemes called for scooping lunar regolith to extract oxygen from ilmenite or other oxygen rich minerals. But monolithic ice sheets would not be so amenable to scooping and transporting.

I am guessing the accumulation of cometary vapors in the polar craters would be like sedimentary rock.

Trying to find Moh's hardness of ice at close to absolute zero has been beyond my Google Fu so far. I have found there are several forms of ice. Lunar ice might be ice 6 so far as I know. A few have speculated the ice would be Moh's hardness of 6 or more. Would diamond saws be needed to cut it? Would pikes, saws or other cutting devices be brittle and vulnerable to breaking?

One scheme proposed by a fellow who calls himself Darrell:
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Maybe heat would work well for this. Place a large "lid" over a given area of ice. Begin heating the ice at the center of the covered area with a heating device in direct contact with the ice. Siphon off the resulting water vapor as it is collected in the lid. This could be scaled up or down. The lid would need to be large enough with respect to the amount of heat applied so that there is enough ice between the heated area and the limits of the lid so that water vapor does not escape at the edges. You could perhaps build mobile machines with lids of 1 to 2 meters, or scale the process up to setting up the lid and plumbing necessary to cover an area of hundreds of meters and then spend weeks harvesting that one area. Perhaps the lid should be a double lid to reduce heat transfer by the water vapor to the perimeter area of the lid.

If I am correct that the ice is in layers like sedimentary rock, this could be to planetary science what the fossil record is to biology. It would be hard to imagine a better historical record of our solar system. In this case mining ice would serve two purposes: reducing the expense of the base and probing a historical record.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2010 05:20 pm by Hop_David »

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #1 on: 06/21/2010 06:29 pm »
I figure the ice deposits will be somewhat similar to the ice hardpan deposits of water ice on Mars that the Phoenix uncovered. If you'll remember, the little scooper couldn't dig into it; yet nevertheless, it was able to obtain some scrapings, indicating that the stuff is somewhat friable.

Remember that a Mohs hardness of 6 or 7 in itself doesn't mean you need diamond saws to get at it. After all, quartz sand has a Mohs hardness of 7, yet you can excavate it with your bare hands--and it's easy to shatter diamonds with a handheld hammer. The key question is how friable ("the ability of a solid substance to be reduced to smaller pieces with little effort") it is.

So a worst-case scenario is that excavating the ice will be like tearing up an old concrete highway. This is a good analogy actually because a highway comes in layers. The ice in these craters will probably be layers separated by thin layers of regolith scattered by nearby meteor impacts.

The first instinct should not be to try and invent some new kind of wheel. In order to avoid analysis paralysis, the first assumption should be that lunar ice won't be any harder to excavate than similar deposits on Earth. Yes, I know its 33 K. But that in itself doesn't logically entail that off-the-shelf excavation equipment couldn't be used to a large extent. E.g., check out out these hydraulic jack hammer/breakers manufactured by http://www.poqutec.com/.

Once the hydraulic jack hammer breaks up the ice into big chunks, then scoop up the chunks using a 1 yard loader bucket. Then dump the chunks into the "Jaw Crusher", which will break it into gravel sized chunks which are then fed into a tank which is then sealed. Heating elements will then melt the ice, and as the tank becomes pressurized the water will enter the liquid phase. From there, it is pumped out and filtered into the water cracking unit to be converted into H2 and O2.

In other words, don't let JPL get a hold of this problem. They will invent some sort of monstrosity like ATHLETE to do a simple job. And don't worry about mass. Weight isn't a problem. We will want weight. As long as the backhoe mass is less than 15 tons, we're golden.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2010 06:40 pm by Warren Platts »
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline agman25

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #2 on: 06/21/2010 06:33 pm »
One approach could be to melt the ice in place and suck out the resulting water. The ice will have to be melted anyway at some point if one has to use it.

Offline Hop_David

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #3 on: 06/21/2010 08:11 pm »
One approach could be to melt the ice in place and suck out the resulting water. The ice will have to be melted anyway at some point if one has to use it.

In a vacuum ice will sublimate rather than melt.

A vacuum cleaner or other sucking devices rely on air and wouldn't work in lunar vacuum.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #4 on: 06/22/2010 12:45 am »
Ice can be cut with a hot wire.  with a triple point of 273.16 K or 0.01 °C the wire does not have to be very hot.

The wheels and cutting edge of the vehicle will have to be protected against the very low temperatures.

Offline Hop_David

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #5 on: 06/22/2010 07:18 am »
I figure the ice deposits will be somewhat similar to the ice hardpan deposits of water ice on Mars that the Phoenix uncovered. If you'll remember, the little scooper couldn't dig into it; yet nevertheless, it was able to obtain some scrapings, indicating that the stuff is somewhat friable.

Remember that a Mohs hardness of 6 or 7 in itself doesn't mean you need diamond saws to get at it. After all, quartz sand has a Mohs hardness of 7, yet you can excavate it with your bare hands--and it's easy to shatter diamonds with a handheld hammer. The key question is how friable ("the ability of a solid substance to be reduced to smaller pieces with little effort") it is.

So a worst-case scenario is that excavating the ice will be like tearing up an old concrete highway. This is a good analogy actually because a highway comes in layers. The ice in these craters will probably be layers separated by thin layers of regolith scattered by nearby meteor impacts.

The first instinct should not be to try and invent some new kind of wheel. In order to avoid analysis paralysis, the first assumption should be that lunar ice won't be any harder to excavate than similar deposits on Earth. Yes, I know its 33 K. But that in itself doesn't logically entail that off-the-shelf excavation equipment couldn't be used to a large extent. E.g., check out out these hydraulic jack hammer/breakers manufactured by http://www.poqutec.com/.

Once the hydraulic jack hammer breaks up the ice into big chunks, then scoop up the chunks using a 1 yard loader bucket. Then dump the chunks into the "Jaw Crusher", which will break it into gravel sized chunks which are then fed into a tank which is then sealed. Heating elements will then melt the ice, and as the tank becomes pressurized the water will enter the liquid phase. From there, it is pumped out and filtered into the water cracking unit to be converted into H2 and O2.

How brittle are the jack hammer chisels at a few degrees above zero? Same for loader bucket, jaw crusher etc.

We can hope the lunar ice is friable. But counting on that seems a sure way to invoke Murphy's Law.

In other words, don't let JPL get a hold of this problem. They will invent some sort of monstrosity like ATHLETE to do a simple job. And don't worry about mass. Weight isn't a problem. We will want weight. As long as the backhoe mass is less than 15 tons, we're golden.

What do the boys at ULA say? They endorse your plan to buy Caterpillar heavy equipment off the shelf and slapping them under Atlas  fairings?
« Last Edit: 06/22/2010 09:00 am by Hop_David »

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #6 on: 06/22/2010 07:35 am »
Quote from: Hop David
How brittle are the jack hammer chisels at a few degrees above zero? Same for loader bucket, jaw crusher etc.
I don't know. I figure it probably depends on the material they're made out of.

Quote
We can hope the lunar ice is friable. But counting on that seems a sure way to invoke Murphy's Law.
Pure FUD. People used to be afraid that Neil Armstrong was going to sink out of sight as soon as he set foot on all that dust.

Quote
What do the boys at ULA say?
You'll have to ask them.

Quote
They endorse your plan to buy Caterpillar heavy equipment off the shelf and slapping them under Atlas  fairings?
Gee, I forgot for a minute that diesel engines don't work in a vacuum, so probably not....

ETA: Rocket engineers are the wrong people to talk to anyway. This is a job for Halliburton.
« Last Edit: 06/22/2010 08:04 am by Warren Platts »
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #7 on: 06/22/2010 07:45 am »
Ice can be cut with a hot wire.  with a triple point of 273.16 K or 0.01 °C the wire does not have to be very hot.
A hot wire won't work because of the tendency of ice to mend itself. Most people on Earth use chain saws to cut ice: but only if they're making sculptures or need regular blocks for some reason. The main idea is to keep things simple and efficient as possible. We should only add complications as they become necessary.

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The wheels and cutting edge of the vehicle will have to be protected against the very low temperatures.

This would seem to be the case, intuitively. But people used to think that we would need special technology to deal with the loose lunar dust. It turned out that regular boots and tires work just fine. How do we know for sure that regular bulldozer or snowcat treads won't work? There is no need to solve problems that don't exist. Let's wait to find out if there will be a problem before we devise a solution to that problem.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline Hop_David

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #8 on: 06/22/2010 09:19 am »
Quote from: Hop David
How brittle are the jack hammer chisels at a few degrees above zero? Same for loader bucket, jaw crusher etc.
I don't know. I figure it probably depends on the material they're made out of.

In other words, you have no idea if they'd work or not.

Quote
We can hope the lunar ice is friable. But counting on that seems a sure way to invoke Murphy's Law.
Pure FUD. People used to be afraid that Neil Armstrong was going to sink out of sight as soon as he set foot on all that dust.

OK, so Neil Armstrong didn't sink in dust. So it follows that lunar ice is sure to be friable?

Quote
What do the boys at ULA say?
You'll have to ask them.

I thought it was all worked out that ISRU would cut the cost of the ULA architecture in half. Have you given any serious thought to lunar ice ISRU? Has ULA? When you flesh in some of the details and run demo models, you'll be more credible.

In the mean time I'll regard your 3.5 billion a year for a lunar base as wishful thinking.

Quote
They endorse your plan to buy Caterpillar heavy equipment off the shelf and slapping them under Atlas  fairings?
Gee, I forgot for a minute that diesel engines don't work in a vacuum, so probably not....

ETA: Rocket engineers are the wrong people to talk to anyway. This is a job for Halliburton.

Wasn't Halliburton one of British Petroleum's subcontractors?

I guess BP demonstrates anxieties over Murphy's Law is pure FUD (whatever that means).

« Last Edit: 06/22/2010 09:20 am by Hop_David »

Offline Hop_David

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #9 on: 06/22/2010 09:29 am »
Ice can be cut with a hot wire.  with a triple point of 273.16 K or 0.01 °C the wire does not have to be very hot.
A hot wire won't work because of the tendency of ice to mend itself.

This is true on earth where an ice crack tends to fill with liquid water. But on the moon, ice sublimates.

I imagine a hemisphere. Half of the hemisphere's rim is hot wire. As the hemisphere cuts through the ice, the hemisphere's leading edge sinks deeper into the ice. When it has rotated 180 degrees, it would be a bowl full of ice that you could lift

How fast it would cut, I don't know. If there were rocks suspended in the ice they might stop the wire.


Quote
The wheels and cutting edge of the vehicle will have to be protected against the very low temperatures.

This would seem to be the case, intuitively. But people used to think that we would need special technology to deal with the loose lunar dust. It turned out that regular boots and tires work just fine. How do we know for sure that regular bulldozer or snowcat treads won't work? There is no need to solve problems that don't exist. Let's wait to find out if there will be a problem before we devise a solution to that problem.

So you would launch an expensive piece of equipment up without researching effects of cold? And if it breaks just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well!"? This sounds like a recipe for cost over runs.

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #10 on: 06/22/2010 10:55 am »
Quote from: Hop David
How brittle are the jack hammer chisels at a few degrees above zero? Same for loader bucket, jaw crusher etc.
I don't know. I figure it probably depends on the material they're made out of.

In other words, you have no idea if they'd work or not.
I am absolutely certain that hydraulic jack hammers could break up the ice. You asked about brittleness.

Quote
Quote
We can hope the lunar ice is friable. But counting on that seems a sure way to invoke Murphy's Law.
Pure FUD. People used to be afraid that Neil Armstrong was going to sink out of sight as soon as he set foot on all that dust.

OK, so Neil Armstrong didn't sink in dust. So it follows that lunar ice is sure to be friable?
I already said that the worst-case scenario is that it will be as tough as breaking up and excavating a concrete highway. Believe me, it can be done--I've been watching guys do it all summer long.

Quote
Quote
What do the boys at ULA say?
You'll have to ask them.

I thought it was all worked out that ISRU would cut the cost of the ULA architecture in half.
You asked if I had talked to ULA; whether I talked to them or not has nothing to do with cutting the cost of a lunar base in half.

Quote
1. Have you given any serious thought to lunar ice ISRU?
2. Has ULA?
3. When you flesh in some of the details and run demo models, you'll be more credible.
1. Yes.
2. I don't know.
3. What details have I left out? If you're asking for a blueprint that shows where every single bolt is supposed to go, sorry, I can't help you out. And what do you mean mean by "demo models?" I've already provided links that demo mining equipment. I suggest you use your mouse. Are you suggesting we shouldn't go to the Moon until we can replicate 30K conditions in a vacuum with 6 foot deep sheets of snow in 1/6 g here here on Earth first?

Quote
In the mean time I'll regard your 3.5 billion a year for a lunar base as wishful thinking.
If you have a better idea, then let's hear it.

Quote
Quote
They endorse your plan to buy Caterpillar heavy equipment off the shelf and slapping them under Atlas  fairings?
Gee, I forgot for a minute that diesel engines don't work in a vacuum, so probably not....

ETA: Rocket engineers are the wrong people to talk to anyway. This is a job for Halliburton.

Wasn't Halliburton one of British Petroleum's subcontractors?

I guess BP demonstrates anxieties over Murphy's Law is pure FUD
You want to drive cars and have air conditioning, then you're going to have blowouts and oil spills. Sorry, but it's a fact of life. I assume you drive. Aren't you afraid that you might get in an accident? How do you manage to overcome your analysis paralysis?

Quote
(whatever that means)
FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Fear that if every last detail is not worked out, a catastrophe will happen and that the catastrophe will be the cause of the end of the world; Uncertainty that problems cannot be solved by creative people; Doubt that success is possible--so why try? Some people genuinely suffer from this condition. Others try to instill it in other people in order to subvert a particular agenda so that their preferred agenda will take place instead. You're on record as saying that HSF should be confined to LEO for the time being until the physiological effects of low gravity are well understood, and because you think that robots on the Moon will be more inspiring for the video-game generation than actual people on the Moon. Meanwhile you apparently have no problem with sticking the taxpayers for $12,000/kg for rocket propellant. So I see why you started this thread here. But you're not fooling me.

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So you would launch an expensive piece of equipment up without researching effects of cold? And if it breaks just shrug your shoulders and say "oh well!"?
That's basically what happend with Phoenix isn't it? And when did I say that we should not research the effects of cold? In fact I think I expressed dismay at the lack of research on the physical properties of water ice at cryogenic temperatures.
Quote
This sounds like a recipe for cost over runs.
Oh brother.... What is a recipe for cost overruns is solving problems that don't exist. The thing to do is to not reinvent the wheel. Conventional equipment with reasonable upgrades should be tried first. Here, actually rocket engineers do have something to say. E.g., about how to design bearings that work at cryogenic temperatures and the sorts of materials that can withstand radical temperature changes without breaking. Probably, you would want to make the business ends of your earth moving equipment out of similar stuff that is used on the impellers in rocket fuel pumps. The problems of articulated machinery in a vacuum have already been worked out in the "Canadarm". Probably they could design the articulated backhoe itself, and a company like Pratt and Whitney with experience in constructing machines that must work with cryogenic materials can design the tracks, etc. As problems crop up, as they will, we solve them as we go along. We cannot foresee, let alone control, the exact shape the future will take, nor can we plan for every single imaginable contingency. If we spend billions on a lunar green cheese slicer when in reality the ice is so friable that an astronaut can scoop it out with a snow shovel, then someone--but not me---is going to feel pretty stupid.
« Last Edit: 06/22/2010 11:06 am by Warren Platts »
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #11 on: 06/22/2010 11:26 am »
Tone it down guys. This is a subject I am enthusiastic about and it is very disheartening to see every discussion of it immediately degenerate, as it has recently.

Offline agman25

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #12 on: 06/22/2010 02:40 pm »
One approach could be to melt the ice in place and suck out the resulting water. The ice will have to be melted anyway at some point if one has to use it.

In a vacuum ice will sublimate rather than melt.

A vacuum cleaner or other sucking devices rely on air and wouldn't work in lunar vacuum.

You were saying that the deposits might be in stratified deposits. In that case they might not be exposed to vacuum. In any case I think dynamite would be involved. The only successful extraction involved a centaur after all.
 :)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #13 on: 06/22/2010 06:15 pm »

What do the boys at ULA say? They endorse your plan to buy Caterpillar heavy equipment off the shelf and slapping them under Atlas  fairings?


Caterpillar and NASA have been talking.
https://www.cat.com/cda/layout?x=7&m=8703&id=976621

Offline neilh

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #14 on: 06/22/2010 08:23 pm »
The first instinct should not be to try and invent some new kind of wheel. In order to avoid analysis paralysis, the first assumption should be that lunar ice won't be any harder to excavate than similar deposits on Earth. Yes, I know its 33 K. But that in itself doesn't logically entail that off-the-shelf excavation equipment couldn't be used to a large extent. E.g., check out out these hydraulic jack hammer/breakers manufactured by http://www.poqutec.com/.

Besides the 33K thing, another issue to keep in mind is the low lunar gravity. Jackhammers (and just about any other terrestrial digging apparatus I can think of) rely on gravity to function. It'd be bad if an astronaut wielding a jackhammer accidentally launched into lunar orbit with it. ;)
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Offline alexterrell

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #15 on: 06/22/2010 08:31 pm »
One approach could be to melt the ice in place and suck out the resulting water. The ice will have to be melted anyway at some point if one has to use it.

In a vacuum ice will sublimate rather than melt.

A vacuum cleaner or other sucking devices rely on air and wouldn't work in lunar vacuum.
But if you drill into the ice, and melt it several metres underground, you should be able to get high enough pressure. A drill with a build in seal is an interesting design challenge.

Offline sdsds

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #16 on: 06/22/2010 08:42 pm »
With what is known today based on orbital reconnaissance it is a wee bit premature to design extraction equipment.  The next logical stop towards mining lunar ice is a surface reconnaissance and evaluation mission.  If you had a rover on the surface near the edge of what was believed to be an ice sheet, what sensors would you want on that rover?  If the rover included an arm that could reach out and touch the ice, what instruments would you want on the tip of that arm?
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Offline Warren Platts

Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #17 on: 06/23/2010 01:22 am »
Forget it. It's not worth it. To build a probe that can really do something useful, it's going to be big, heavy, and expensive. The lifetime cost of the golf-cart probe they're sending to Mars is projected to run to $2 billion USD, I think; meanwhile, the only lander I've heard of that NASA wants to send has to do with the latest Request For Information (RFI) where the probe had to stay under 60 kg and not use more than 200 Watts. So the $2 billion that it would take to answer your question is better off just folded into the manned program. We're going there anyway. Better to let the trained geologists figure it out once they get there.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #18 on: 06/23/2010 01:43 am »
The first instinct should not be to try and invent some new kind of wheel. In order to avoid analysis paralysis, the first assumption should be that lunar ice won't be any harder to excavate than similar deposits on Earth. Yes, I know its 33 K. But that in itself doesn't logically entail that off-the-shelf excavation equipment couldn't be used to a large extent. E.g., check out out these hydraulic jack hammer/breakers manufactured by http://www.poqutec.com/.

Besides the 33K thing, another issue to keep in mind is the low lunar gravity. Jackhammers (and just about any other terrestrial digging apparatus I can think of) rely on gravity to function. It'd be bad if an astronaut wielding a jackhammer accidentally launched into lunar orbit with it. ;)

I agree sir. If I recall correctly from physics class, friction is proportional to the area times the force perpendicular to the area. So for two similarly tracked bulldozers to have the same amount of traction, the bulldozer on the Moon will have to have 6 times the mass in order to have the same weight/traction. That's why I say that mass should be the least worry when it comes to designing earth moving equipment for the Moon. Really, the problem is going to be the opposite.

Here is a link to Bobcat.com for the specs of an excavator that I have in mind. It weighs 4 tons, however.  6 x 4 = 24 tons. But the ACES DTAL landers that are being contemplated can only deliver 15 tons at a time. So there is a design challenge. So one might want to equip them with bins on the side or something that can be filled with regolith to give some extra ballast.

http://www.bobcat.com/excavators/models/331
« Last Edit: 06/23/2010 01:44 am by Warren Platts »
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline sdsds

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Re: Mining lunar ice
« Reply #19 on: 06/23/2010 01:55 am »
I wrote, "The next logical stop towards mining lunar ice is a surface reconnaissance and evaluation mission."

Forget it. It's not worth it. [...] the $2 billion that it would take [...] is better off just folded into the manned program. We're going there anyway. Better to let the trained geologists figure it out once they get there.

Wouldn't it be great if a crewed mission to the lunar ice fields were reintroduced as something NASA (or an international partnership) might do anytime soon?  Dream on....  Realistically, robotic precursors are an integral element in both the plan of record and the FY11 proposal.  Is there a proposal gaining any traction whatsoever that doesn't include them?
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