Author Topic: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!  (Read 121701 times)

Offline Hotol

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #20 on: 03/06/2006 02:35 pm »
Understood, but this is the problem I've got with space planes in this light. Don't get me wrong, I love space planes and it's beautiful, but the STS is great for going to the ISS as it not only takes a load of people there, but they are big space trucks that can take with them parts of the station and logistics etc.

This space plane would not have been anything more than a few crew.

Offline Peter NASA

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #21 on: 03/06/2006 02:55 pm »
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nacnud - 6/3/2006  3:49 AM

Aviation Week  & Space Technology has revieled what it knows about a possible TSTO space plane, if true this is amazing!

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Over active imagination. I'm not convinced by this report.

Offline rsp1202

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #22 on: 03/06/2006 03:20 pm »
AVWeek broke the story of particle-beam/laser space weaponry in the early '80s (far ahead of "Star Wars"); advanced black program aircraft in the '90s; and now this. It sounds credible, not at all like disinformation. As a reliable news organization, AWST is better than most.

Assuming the story has its facts generally correct, the chances of transferring black program technology, especially something that's flown, over to the white world is nil. The companies that developed it could not pass the national security gauntlet to use it in their proprietary programs that might be considered for commercial use. Moreso, since DoD has plans for hypersonic+ weapons delivery systems in the pipeline.

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #23 on: 03/06/2006 03:22 pm »
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rsp1202 - 6/3/2006  11:20 AM
Assuming the story has its facts generally correct, the chances of transferring black program technology, especially something that's flown, over to the white world is nil. The companies that developed it could not pass the national security gauntlet to use it in their proprietary programs that might be considered for commercial use.

So, then we spend billions on STS-derived SRB launch vehicles and Apollo-style capsules while superior technology just goes to waste?  That's insane!

Offline rsp1202

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #24 on: 03/06/2006 03:24 pm »
Standard operating procedure, otherwise known as the real world.

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #25 on: 03/06/2006 03:26 pm »
Man, the real world sucks!   ;)

Offline Jim

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #26 on: 03/06/2006 03:30 pm »
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vt_hokie - 6/3/2006  10:22 AM
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rsp1202 - 6/3/2006  11:20 AMAssuming the story has its facts generally correct, the chances of transferring black program technology, especially something that's flown, over to the white world is nil. The companies that developed it could not pass the national security gauntlet to use it in their proprietary programs that might be considered for commercial use.
So, then we spend billions on STS-derived SRB launch vehicles and Apollo-style capsules while superior technology just goes to waste?  That's insane!


It can't go to the moon.  It is too small to go to the ISS.  Enlarging it would destroy it's economics.

Offline rsp1202

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #27 on: 03/06/2006 03:32 pm »
Besides, there's no guarantee that Blackstar technology is or was reliable. And it's not superior if it has limited capacity that can't be upgraded affordably. Black program costs can't be related to anything else, but dollars to donuts it wouldn't be cheap to make it commercial.

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #28 on: 03/06/2006 03:37 pm »
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Jim - 6/3/2006  11:30 AM
It can't go to the moon.

That is true, but neither can the CEV capsule without an independently launched Earth departure stage.  That's really a separate item from the crew vehicle.   

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It is too small to go to the ISS.  Enlarging it would destroy it's economics.

Surely, if it is manned, it's at least got capacity comparable to a Soyuz capsule.  Even Dyna-Soar was envisioned as a vehicle that would service an orbiting laboratory.

Offline Jim

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #29 on: 03/06/2006 03:44 pm »
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vt_hokie - 6/3/2006  10:37 AM
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Jim - 6/3/2006  11:30 AMIt can't go to the moon.
That is true, but neither can the CEV capsule without an independently launched Earth departure stage.  That's really a separate item from the crew vehicle.    
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It is too small to go to the ISS.  Enlarging it would destroy it's economics.
Surely, if it is manned, it's at least got capacity comparable to a Soyuz capsule.  Even Dyna-Soar was envisioned as a vehicle that would service an orbiting laboratory.

I meant from habitation aspects.

Dynasoar needed a Titan III and Transtage to do anything and that was later versions.

Also docking adapters, tunnels and hatches aren't light and easy to accomodate aerodynamically.

I would say it would have less room than a Soyuz, much like any high speed aircraft.

Offline Super George

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #30 on: 03/06/2006 04:12 pm »
Looks very nice, but has no practical multiple uses for it to be in the comparison range of the STS and CEV.

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #31 on: 03/06/2006 04:19 pm »
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Super George - 6/3/2006  12:12 PM

Looks very nice, but has no practical multiple uses for it to be in the comparison range of the STS and CEV.

Look at it not only for what this particular vehicle can do, if it exists, but also how the technology can be applied to future vehicles!   :)

Offline simonbp

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #32 on: 03/06/2006 04:46 pm »
Personally, I always though that the XB-70 was too good of an aircraft to let die...

As far as capabilities, I think it could show promise for cheaper sat launching; apparently all the initial dev cost has been covered by the government, and minus the crew/life-support systems/reconnaissance package, it should at least have a similar payload to a Delta II...

I'd be really interested to know how make an aerospike injector for a gelled propellant... :)

Simon ;)

Offline darkenfast

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #33 on: 03/06/2006 04:53 pm »
This sounds more like a variation on the old SR-71/Drone concept.  I'm not sure what would be gained from the second vehicle being manned.
Regarding the modified C-5's: does anyone outside of the "conspiracy theory" crowd know anything about them?
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Offline Jim

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #34 on: 03/06/2006 05:07 pm »
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darkenfast - 6/3/2006  11:53 AMThis sounds more like a variation on the old SR-71/Drone concept.  I'm not sure what would be gained from the second vehicle being manned.Regarding the modified C-5's: does anyone outside of the "conspiracy theory" crowd know anything about them?

I know about the C-5 SCM (Space Cargo Modification).  These were modified for the SCTS (Space Cargo Transportation System)  This is a large canister for transporting spacecraft cross-country.  It was developed for DOD spacecraft 60' x 15" dia. at 45k lb. 

it was used for HST, AXAF,some ISS modules, and xxxxxxxxx (I would have to shoot you, if I told you)

It sounds like from the article that they were mistakely associating this with the "Blackstar" system



Offline Jim

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #35 on: 03/06/2006 06:40 pm »
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Chris Bergin - 6/3/2006  7:29 AM
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JamesSpaceFlight - 6/3/2006  1:23 PMWhat the hell? Have they been hacking into British Aerospace's computers? This has ruffled a few feathers here as that's a little bit too much like a couple of our old projects.
Looks like Hotol and the front and Concorde at the aft, but can you say anymore on what you mean above?

Looking at the other pics (not the planform drawings), I see XB-70 andSR-71 heritage vs Concorde and HOTOL. Must be that I am an American andnot a Brit.

Offline nacnud

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #36 on: 03/06/2006 06:43 pm »
I dunno I see XB-70 and A-12/SR-71 in it more than Concorde and Hotol, but then I'm not party to the innner workings of BAe :)

Offline RRP

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #37 on: 03/06/2006 07:12 pm »
I still think the XB-70 was the coolest looking airplane to ever fly. Awesome machine...imho. GLad to see it has other fans and a second life as well. Read the AWST article. I can't imaging how they could have had pieces for XB-70 number 3 in a warehuse for decades. How many other bits of aircraft/spacecraft programs do we have in unnamed warehouses? Reminds me of the the end to Indiana Jones #1  :o

Offline Jim

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #38 on: 03/06/2006 07:18 pm »
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RRP - 6/3/2006  2:12 PMI still think the XB-70 was the coolest looking airplane to ever fly. Awesome machine...imho. GLad to see it has other fans and a second life as well. Read the AWST article. I can't imaging how they could have had pieces for XB-70 number 3 in a warehuse for decades. How many other bits of aircraft/spacecraft programs do we have in unnamed warehouses? Reminds me of the the end to Indiana Jones #1  :o

AFP-888 or P80-1 Teal Ruby, Triana, .....  Give me more time and I will think of more.

Offline Dogsbd

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Re: Blackstar: Operational TSTO!
« Reply #39 on: 03/06/2006 07:35 pm »
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Jim - 6/3/2006  2:40 PM

Looking at the other pics (not the planform drawings), I see XB-70 andSR-71 heritage vs Concorde and HOTOL. Must be that I am an American andnot a Brit.

I agree. Seems strange to me that anyone would claim this "Blackstar" is a knockoff of a mid '80's design when the US was flying the XB-70 in the 60's.

If anything  it would seem to me that HOTOL was heavily influenced by XB-70.


 

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