Author Topic: Proposed Europa Missions  (Read 640936 times)

Offline redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1320 on: 04/05/2016 09:35 am »
Is the shell around the lander an actual structure or some bounding box sort of thing? It's a little hard to tell, it looks like the lander stack slots into the doughnut-shaped carrier and pops out the top before dumping the shell?

That looks like the case.  I'm wondering about the carrier itself; it has some thought put into it but I'm wondering what it will be doing, more so if it is going to double for a relay platform later.  It's not as elaborated upon as the lander or its descent packaging.  Should we assume it enters orbit chemically or would SEP be an option despite weak sunlight?
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Offline A8-3

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1321 on: 04/13/2016 01:55 pm »
I haven't seen this before. Is it new? Similar to the StarChip Nanocrafts proposed by the Starshot project.

http://aviationweek.com/space/smallsat-concept-could-change-game-europa

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1322 on: 04/19/2016 07:18 pm »
Jeff Foust –  ‏@jeff_foust

Culberson: NASA number should be a good one overall, in particular Europa mission [a personal favorite of his]
9:31 a.m. - 19 Apr 2016

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/722462619903397888

Offline Blackstar

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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1324 on: 04/20/2016 11:39 pm »
There are similar issues with Mars sample return. Every time I see somebody suggest that they should add ISRU to the Mars sample return architecture I cringe. That's adding unproven and complicated technology to something that is already difficult to do, and it does not actually improve the result, it only adds risk (a good rule of thumb is that if you are going to add risk, you should also have a good benefit to the mission for doing so).

OT comment by me, but adding operational ISRU allows increasing the returned sample mass by about an order of magnitude.  Despite the advances in analytical techniques, sample size and diversity is still very important.  I quite agree with the point of added complexity but I'll match your cringe with my eye roll over the greatly reduced return any day.  OK, back to the scheduled program. :)
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1325 on: 04/21/2016 12:26 am »
OT comment by me, but adding operational ISRU allows increasing the returned sample mass by about an order of magnitude.  Despite the advances in analytical techniques, sample size and diversity is still very important.  I quite agree with the point of added complexity but I'll match your cringe with my eye roll over the greatly reduced return any day.  OK, back to the scheduled program. :)

I fully agree with you that untested, unproven, theoretical technologies that are high risk have far greater performance than tested, proven, existing technologies. Absolutely true. On Mars. On Europa. Everywhere.

Offline okan170

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1326 on: 04/21/2016 05:36 pm »
New NASA/JPL render of the current Clipper configuration.  (this would've really helped me last week!)

http://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/jpl/pia20025/europa-mission-spacecraft-artists-rendering
« Last Edit: 04/21/2016 05:41 pm by okan170 »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1327 on: 05/03/2016 01:03 am »
Europa mission.

Offline rocx

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1328 on: 05/03/2016 07:18 am »
I really like this part in the pdf about Europa Missions:

Quote
–Lander
  •Science!!!

From a Kerbal point of view I completely agree that landing on a planet will give a lot more science than orbiting.
Any day with a rocket landing is a fantastic day.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1329 on: 05/04/2016 03:41 am »
OT comment by me, but adding operational ISRU allows increasing the returned sample mass by about an order of magnitude.  Despite the advances in analytical techniques, sample size and diversity is still very important.  I quite agree with the point of added complexity but I'll match your cringe with my eye roll over the greatly reduced return any day.  OK, back to the scheduled program. :)

I fully agree with you that untested, unproven, theoretical technologies that are high risk have far greater performance than tested, proven, existing technologies. Absolutely true. On Mars. On Europa. Everywhere.

Nothing theoretical, untested, or unproven about ISRU. TRL varies between 3 and 6 depending on type under discussion. 
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline baldusi

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1330 on: 05/04/2016 04:27 am »
OT comment by me, but adding operational ISRU allows increasing the returned sample mass by about an order of magnitude.  Despite the advances in analytical techniques, sample size and diversity is still very important.  I quite agree with the point of added complexity but I'll match your cringe with my eye roll over the greatly reduced return any day.  OK, back to the scheduled program. :)

I fully agree with you that untested, unproven, theoretical technologies that are high risk have far greater performance than tested, proven, existing technologies. Absolutely true. On Mars. On Europa. Everywhere.

Nothing theoretical, untested, or unproven about ISRU. TRL varies between 3 and 6 depending on type under discussion.
I believe that you have to read again the very definition of TRL.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1331 on: 05/04/2016 04:41 am »
Nothing theoretical, untested, or unproven about ISRU. TRL varies between 3 and 6 depending on type under discussion. 
Not to sidetrack, but i'm aware of multiple projects that have gone to TRL 4/5, but not legitimately at 6 - i.e. mostly flight weight/volume prototype that meets the performance goals, tested in analog environment.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1332 on: 05/04/2016 06:42 am »
So the lander will be using another Skycrane, I suppose that's logical as by then similar devices should have been used twice to land on Mars.

Offline Star One

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Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1333 on: 05/17/2016 08:13 pm »
Looks like the politicians are trying to force NASA's hand this.

Quote
The House bill also specified that, of the $5.6 billion allocated for NASA’s science programs, $260 million go towards a mission to Europa. NASA requested less than $50 million for the Europa mission, while the Senate’s bill did not specify an amount for that proposed mission.

The additional Europa funding is not surprising, as Rep. John Culberson (R-Texas), chairman of the CJS subcommittee, has been a leading advocate for a Europa mission for several years, adding funding well above any NASA request for a spacecraft to help determine if the icy moon can support life.

http://spacenews.com/house-bill-offers-19-5-billion-for-nasa-in-2017/
« Last Edit: 05/17/2016 08:14 pm by Star One »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1334 on: 05/17/2016 08:34 pm »
Looks like the politicians are trying to force NASA's hand this.

Quote
The House bill also specified that, of the $5.6 billion allocated for NASA’s science programs, $260 million go towards a mission to Europa. NASA requested less than $50 million for the Europa mission, while the Senate’s bill did not specify an amount for that proposed mission.

The additional Europa funding is not surprising, as Rep. John Culberson (R-Texas), chairman of the CJS subcommittee, has been a leading advocate for a Europa mission for several years, adding funding well above any NASA request for a spacecraft to help determine if the icy moon can support life.

http://spacenews.com/house-bill-offers-19-5-billion-for-nasa-in-2017/

It's not forcing NASA's hand. It's forcing the OMB/Obama administration's hand. And this has been going on for a number of years now. There are people at NASA who would love if the administration asked for sufficient money to fund a Europa mission. But the administration is not doing that, so Congressman Culberson is forcing it on them.

There is the civics lessons they teach you in school and then there is how government really works, and understanding the latter is really tough. I got a Ph.D. in it and I still learn stuff all the time.
« Last Edit: 05/17/2016 08:34 pm by Blackstar »

Offline redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1335 on: 05/17/2016 09:09 pm »
It's not forcing NASA's hand. It's forcing the OMB/Obama administration's hand. And this has been going on for a number of years now. There are people at NASA who would love if the administration asked for sufficient money to fund a Europa mission. But the administration is not doing that, so Congressman Culberson is forcing it on them.

Obama's administration definitely had zero interest in NASA, that's proven obvious by now; even (Bill) Clinton and George (W) Bush before him showed at least slightly more interest.  Not terribly surprised NASA's the Cinderella of the situation, although at least the Planetary Science program is fairing vastly better than it was in the 1980s.

Steering back to the proper topic though, it is still heartwarming to know Europa hasn't been forgotten.  Clearly it will be funded and become the next flagship after Mars 2020.  The real fun part will be seeing IF it flies aboard SLS or not, which is also part of the funding fun.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1336 on: 05/17/2016 09:25 pm »
Obama's administration definitely had zero interest in NASA, that's proven obvious by now; even (Bill) Clinton and George (W) Bush before him showed at least slightly more interest.  Not terribly surprised NASA's the Cinderella of the situation, although at least the Planetary Science program is fairing vastly better than it was in the 1980s.

Steering back to the proper topic though, it is still heartwarming to know Europa hasn't been forgotten.  Clearly it will be funded and become the next flagship after Mars 2020.  The real fun part will be seeing IF it flies aboard SLS or not, which is also part of the funding fun.

I don't want to get too far into this, but I disagree with your first statement. Obama did not cut NASA in any serious way. The administration wanted to use it to serve their larger agendas, which included monitoring climate change and STEM issues. I think that when it came to human exploration, they tried to redirect the train, but were surprised that when they turned the wheel on it really hard it came off the tracks. Then they walked away from it. This was not unusual--both the first and second Bush administrations tried to redirect NASA, saw their efforts blow up in their face, and then walked away. It's a problem with how the executive branch views NASA: they pay attention to it for a short period of time, think that they can simply point it in a new direction and say "Go!" and then they don't need to do anything else. That's not the way stuff works--continued monitoring and engagement and funding is necessary--but they don't care enough about NASA to do all that work, and so they quit.

Planetary science is not doing as well as it was under Bush. Earth science is doing better.

And yes, you are right about Europa. It will indeed be interesting to see what happens.

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1337 on: 05/17/2016 09:41 pm »
Will it be able to reach completion as a project if there is a repeated stance of indifference by the next adminstration?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1338 on: 05/18/2016 12:54 am »
Will it be able to reach completion as a project if there is a repeated stance of indifference by the next adminstration?

I don't know. From a project management standpoint this is a horrible way to run a program. The people who run it (HQ, JPL) have to know how much money they will have for the next several years so that they can start buying stuff. But they don't. In fact, it's worse than that--OMB tells them how much money to plan to have, and then when Congress gets done, they have more money, so they either scramble to spend it, or leave some of it unspent. And what happens if the Republicans lose the Senate or even the House next year? Then Congress will stop adding in the money for a Europa mission.

It is a helluva way to run a railroad.

Offline wbianco

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1339 on: 05/18/2016 03:22 am »

And yes, you are right about Europa. It will indeed be interesting to see what happens.

As per the House budget proposal today, the "plan" is to launch Clipper in 2022 on an SLS, with a second SLS used to launch a lander in 2024.  Which is a nonstarter unless somebody subsidizes SMD for the launches....do you see any hands being raised?  Didn't think so.     

Which is to say - Clipper sounds cool and there is support, but lots of cool things have fallen by the wayside given far smaller cost pressures.  Blackstar's right - it's a hell of a way to run a railroad.
« Last Edit: 05/18/2016 03:23 am by wbianco »

 

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