Author Topic: Fusion with space related aspects thread  (Read 659010 times)

Offline Cinder

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2880 on: 10/07/2017 05:41 AM »
Beryllium's announced for later this year and that's supposed to be free of impurities.  Ostensibly once the Beryllium part's installed they will not remove it (?)
The pork must flow.

Offline sanman

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2881 on: 10/07/2017 06:06 AM »
Once you go Beryllium, you can't go back - anything else is a step down.

But once they go to Beryllium, they've got no more excuses in regards to impurities, since Be's nuclear cross-section is so low. From there they have to achieve their confinement potential, in order to justify switching to p+B11.

On the other hand - what if LPP achieves enough confinement potential to justify using Helium-3? That too is aneutronic, while having the lower Coulombic repulsion. That would then dovetail nicely with the renewed interest in returning to the Moon, and might help subsidize the cost of doing so.
« Last Edit: 10/07/2017 07:07 AM by sanman »

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2882 on: 10/08/2017 05:16 PM »
Princeton Satellite Systems have released their final NIAC Phase 1 report:
http://www.psatellite.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/NIAC_Thomas_FusionToPluto_PhaseI-distrib.pdf

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2883 on: 10/09/2017 01:44 AM »
Princeton Satellite Systems have released their final NIAC Phase 1 report:
http://www.psatellite.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/NIAC_Thomas_FusionToPluto_PhaseI-distrib.pdf

Interesting.

Would like to see mission parameters (days, total mass) to closer targets, like Mars and Jupiter.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2884 on: 10/09/2017 02:52 PM »
Would like to see mission parameters (days, total mass) to closer targets, like Mars and Jupiter.
They did some work on this a few years ago. This is using older data and IMHO transfer times with 6 DFDs were still quite long. Overall system mass is relatively small, though( small enough to fit into 1 SLS or 3 FH launches).
http://support.psatellite.com/research/IAC_DFD_2014.pdf
With BFR, they could add more DFD engines and make the transfer even faster :)

Offline sanman

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2885 on: 10/10/2017 09:53 AM »
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/10/lpp-fusion-claims-to-have-achieved-nuclear-fusion-confinement-record-of-200-kiloelectron-volts.html

2 billion kelvin?

Here's the IEEE Spectrum article being cited:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nuclear/startup-lppfusion-embraces-instability

Quote
Still under peer review as of press time was a paper submitted to the journal Physics of Plasmas, in which Lerner and his coauthors claim to have produced a confined mean ion energy of 200 kiloelectron volts, equivalent to a temperature of over 2 billion kelvins. ďAs far as we know, thatís a record for any fusion plasma,Ē Lerner says.

That sounds like a temperature even greater than was achieved at the Z-Pinch machine at Sandia National Labs.

Hypothetically, if the Dense Focus Fusion approach could be made to work, then how could it most effectively be used for spacecraft propulsion?
Since it uses aneutronic fusion, which minimizes the radiation hazard, then could it be feasible for propelling a launch vehicle from Earth to Orbit? If so, then what would that propulsion system look like? Could that fan-rocket concept from John Bucknell be driven by Dense Focus Fusion power?

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2886 on: 10/10/2017 02:37 PM »
Hypothetically, if the Dense Focus Fusion approach could be made to work, then how could it most effectively be used for spacecraft propulsion?
Since it uses aneutronic fusion, which minimizes the radiation hazard, then could it be feasible for propelling a launch vehicle from Earth to Orbit? If so, then what would that propulsion system look like? Could that fan-rocket concept from John Bucknell be driven by Dense Focus Fusion power?
George H. Miley did several studies on how the DPF could be used for space propulsion. This paper here also gives a brief outline on how this could be used for a SSTO launch vehicle:
https://www.scribd.com/presentation/18992621/ADVANCES-IN-DENSE-PLASMA-FOR-FUSION-POWER-AND-SPACE-PROPULSION-with-George-Miley-Ph-D

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2887 on: 10/18/2017 06:04 PM »
Yeah, compact fusion of any sort would revolutionize spaceflight.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline sanman

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2888 on: 10/18/2017 07:17 PM »
Yeah, compact fusion of any sort would revolutionize spaceflight.

Especially if it were hooked up to one of these propellentless drives that only needs a power supply to feed it.

Then we send out the interstellar probes in all directions.


Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2889 on: 10/18/2017 09:52 PM »
Yeah, compact fusion of any sort would revolutionize spaceflight.

Especially if it were hooked up to one of these propellentless drives that only needs a power supply to feed it.

Then we send out the interstellar probes in all directions.
Well, you can go anywhere in your imaginationô!
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Star One

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Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2890 on: 03/27/2018 11:55 AM »
Cross posting as not which thread I should be using here.

Quote
Lockheed Martin Now Has a Patent For Its Potentially World Changing Fusion Reactor

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/19652/lockheed-martin-now-has-a-patent-for-its-potentially-world-changing-fusion-reactor

Hereís Stephen Trimbleís original Tweet on the topic.

https://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/978284949139808256?s=20

Quote
Newly-awarded patent for Skunk Works engineer shows design of compact fusion reactor, with a drawing of an F-16 included as a potential application. Testing of a prototype reactor is underway in Palmdale. (link: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/24/5a/0c/0b80839516d6f0/US20180047462A1.pdf) patentimages.storage.g
« Last Edit: 03/27/2018 11:58 AM by Star One »

Offline sghill

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2891 on: 03/27/2018 01:19 PM »
Even more interesting is that the patent was granted mere weeks after Putin announced flight-tested hypersonic fission-powered cruise missiles...
Bring the thunder Elon!

Offline Star One

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2892 on: 03/27/2018 01:26 PM »
Even more interesting is that the patent was granted mere weeks after Putin announced flight-tested hypersonic fission-powered cruise missiles...

This wasnít classified so either this isnít going anywhere fast or the important stuff was kept out of it.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2893 on: 03/27/2018 02:01 PM »
While I do think that this is good news, I am less optimistic about their schedule than the article on The Drive. From what I understand, LM is still a few years away from having a prototype. They had a pretty long funding gap, that was only closed recently (last year or 2016, IIRC). So that would have delayed progress significantly. It is important to understand that optimistic schedules given by fusion research teams always assume adequate funding. Without that, dates slip.

Offline Star One

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2894 on: 03/27/2018 02:49 PM »
While I do think that this is good news, I am less optimistic about their schedule than the article on The Drive. From what I understand, LM is still a few years away from having a prototype. They had a pretty long funding gap, that was only closed recently (last year or 2016, IIRC). So that would have delayed progress significantly. It is important to understand that optimistic schedules given by fusion research teams always assume adequate funding. Without that, dates slip.

Why were they starved of funding? Internal politics?

Online meberbs

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2895 on: 03/27/2018 02:56 PM »
Even more interesting is that the patent was granted mere weeks after Putin announced flight-tested hypersonic fission-powered cruise missiles...

This wasnít classified so either this isnít going anywhere fast or the important stuff was kept out of it.
Classified is irrelevant, only government projects can be classified, and as far as I know this is a 100% internally funded project (IRAD) so everything about it is unclassified.

While I do think that this is good news, I am less optimistic about their schedule than the article on The Drive. From what I understand, LM is still a few years away from having a prototype. They had a pretty long funding gap, that was only closed recently (last year or 2016, IIRC). So that would have delayed progress significantly. It is important to understand that optimistic schedules given by fusion research teams always assume adequate funding. Without that, dates slip.
As far as I know, there has been no funding gap. There have been just a couple official updates since the original announcement, and they were always along the lines of "Yes, we are still funding it, in fact, it just passed an internal milestone for increased funding levels." Still, there likely is 1-2 years of delay, just because that is what happens.

Offline Star One

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2896 on: 03/27/2018 04:26 PM »
Even more interesting is that the patent was granted mere weeks after Putin announced flight-tested hypersonic fission-powered cruise missiles...

This wasnít classified so either this isnít going anywhere fast or the important stuff was kept out of it.
Classified is irrelevant, only government projects can be classified, and as far as I know this is a 100% internally funded project (IRAD) so everything about it is unclassified.

While I do think that this is good news, I am less optimistic about their schedule than the article on The Drive. From what I understand, LM is still a few years away from having a prototype. They had a pretty long funding gap, that was only closed recently (last year or 2016, IIRC). So that would have delayed progress significantly. It is important to understand that optimistic schedules given by fusion research teams always assume adequate funding. Without that, dates slip.
As far as I know, there has been no funding gap. There have been just a couple official updates since the original announcement, and they were always along the lines of "Yes, we are still funding it, in fact, it just passed an internal milestone for increased funding levels." Still, there likely is 1-2 years of delay, just because that is what happens.

Donít they also delay reporting achievements  publicly so that competitors find it more difficult to ascertain progress.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2897 on: 03/27/2018 11:17 PM »
Even more interesting is that the patent was granted mere weeks after Putin announced flight-tested hypersonic fission-powered cruise missiles...

This wasnít classified so either this isnít going anywhere fast or the important stuff was kept out of it.

US government reserves the right to classify some patent applications (and I believe Ph.D dissertations?) in the name of national security, which makes life complicated since you then can't get proper patent protection of an idea and you can't develop it easily since it has to be locked down with SCIF's.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2898 on: 03/27/2018 11:30 PM »
... and if it's anything to due with nuclear isotopes, it's "born secret".
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Online meberbs

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #2899 on: 03/28/2018 01:10 AM »
... and if it's anything to due with nuclear isotopes, it's "born secret".
Important caveat being that "born secret" is most likely unconstitutional due to free speech, it just doesn't usually come up.

US government reserves the right to classify some patent applications (and I believe Ph.D dissertations?) in the name of national security, which makes life complicated since you then can't get proper patent protection of an idea and you can't develop it easily since it has to be locked down with SCIF's.
They couldn't do PhD dissertations, that would hit free speech. The only reason patents get around that is that you don't have to apply for patent protections, and could leave things as proprietary/trade secret, and they don't do that with many patents anyway.

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