Author Topic: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)  (Read 4032 times)

Online jebbo

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #20 on: 10/05/2017 02:30 PM »
Related to this, I wonder about those first few Mars landings when there is NO infrastructure.  Basically, I don't think I've seen anything on the first landings on the bare Martian (or Lunar, if that happens first) surface or how a landing pad structure would be deployed.

Or have I just missed it in the volume of updates? [ which is entirely possible! ]

--- Tony

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #21 on: 10/05/2017 07:05 PM »
I'm curious about the large dome.

We never really got to the bottom of how to scale domes. Either that pesky ground seam, or a full buried sphere, neither is straight forward. Like any large pressure vessel.
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Online envy887

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #22 on: 10/05/2017 07:14 PM »
I'm curious about the large dome.

We never really got to the bottom of how to scale domes. Either that pesky ground seam, or a full buried sphere, neither is straight forward. Like any large pressure vessel.

Either way, the stresses quickly become infeasible without internal tension elements. With internal cables, ground anchors, and a sealed floor, the dome is certainly doable.

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #23 on: 10/05/2017 07:21 PM »
I'm curious about the large dome.

We never really got to the bottom of how to scale domes. Either that pesky ground seam, or a full buried sphere, neither is straight forward. Like any large pressure vessel.

Either way, the stresses quickly become infeasible without internal tension elements. With internal cables, ground anchors, and a sealed floor, the dome is certainly doable.
Yeah, I was thinking internal cables too.

But the thing is, the difficulty scales with volume, and so you're not really winning with larger domes.  It's just prettier (from a distance).

I wonder how much engineering They've applied to the colony.  The couple of slides are not an indication one way or the other.

Are they developing a large surface vehicle?  Did they partner with someone on that?  How about solar tech, ISRU tech, agriculture...

Next year's IAC?

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Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #24 on: 10/05/2017 07:35 PM »
Related to this, I wonder about those first few Mars landings when there is NO infrastructure.  Basically, I don't think I've seen anything on the first landings on the bare Martian (or Lunar, if that happens first) surface or how a landing pad structure would be deployed.

Or have I just missed it in the volume of updates? [ which is entirely possible! ]

--- Tony
A bit off topic. And also discussed in the past, I think. Netting it out:

I think the first automated ship lands on the clearest and levelest patch you can find in advance that's near the initial colony location. And you write it off. If it didn't take damage, great! But don't plan on it ever lifting again. If it does, bonus, but don't plan on it. A goodly part of its cargo is robotic earthmoving equipment (this might be just a patch of solar cells to plug into, or a power cable from the on board nuclear pile, and one battery powered vehicle that's a combination grader, front end loader and sinterer, plus a spare)... which busily starts prepping the landing spot for the second ship so there's no FOD. Once done with enough spots it switches to ice mining perhaps.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #25 on: 10/05/2017 07:53 PM »
The UAE has plans to build a 1.9 million sq. foot prototype Mars city:

http://www.ien.com/product-development/video/20978190/massive-mars-simulation-will-be-built-in-the-desert?utm_medium=email&utm_source=Industrial%20Management%20Today%2010052017&utm_term=15587&email=ehedman@ldcglobal.com

If this goes ahead, it might be a place to test out infrastructure concepts.

Offline corneliussulla

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #26 on: 10/05/2017 11:12 PM »
If you assume about 24 crew in the first ships to arrive. They will probably need about 3-4 tonnes of consumables per person to keep them alive for 3 years. So around 100 tonnes. That leaves us with (6 x 150)-100 for the equipment to make the ISRU plant & power systems and the initial colony. 800 tonnes. There will be redundancy in the deliverables but you can do a lot with that sort of tonnage. For instance major earth moving and drilling machines, science and exploration rovers, pre fabricated buildings, machines to create Martian concrete etc. Life support equipment for the pre fabs. I wonder if bigelow can provide some initial surface habitats. 

U can be certain musk etc have given some thought to this, how otherwise would they have come up with the need for 6 ships.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #27 on: 10/06/2017 03:58 AM »
....
U can be certain musk etc have given some thought to this, how otherwise would they have come up with the need for 6 ships.

Guessing the combine propellants left with at least 4 ships is enough to for 1 ship to get back to Earth, maybe with aerobraking. If ISRU ops don't work as expected.

Offline aero

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #28 on: 10/06/2017 05:10 AM »
....
U can be certain musk etc have given some thought to this, how otherwise would they have come up with the need for 6 ships.

Guessing the combine propellants left with at least 4 ships is enough to for 1 ship to get back to Earth, maybe with aerobraking. If ISRU ops don't work as expected.

But remember, these people are colonists. They won't want to come back. Doing so would undercut the whole "multiplanet species" objective, if not destroy it, certainly delay it immensely. Better to die on Mars if you are a true believer in multiplanet humanity. Not saying they will be fanatics, but can we say they won't be?
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Offline corneliussulla

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #29 on: 10/06/2017 06:15 AM »
I am not sure the first people to arrive will be colonists. If u r a colonist u will want to have a partner with u at least and maybe a family. The first mission will be specialists for construction and science maybe not room for partners maybe the odd couple may fit the bill as specialist and partners . To be honest I don't think enough is known about having a child and its development in low gravity for that to be a proposition before a load of science has been undertaken on Mars.

So first actual colonists may actually come after maybe 6-8 years after initial landing but continuous occupation for all that period. Could be totally wrong of course
« Last Edit: 10/06/2017 06:16 AM by corneliussulla »

Offline colbourne

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #30 on: 10/06/2017 07:33 AM »
I'm curious about the large dome.

We never really got to the bottom of how to scale domes. Either that pesky ground seam, or a full buried sphere, neither is straight forward. Like any large pressure vessel.

Either way, the stresses quickly become infeasible without internal tension elements. With internal cables, ground anchors, and a sealed floor, the dome is certainly doable.
If you bury the dome, you will not need  the internal cables , or not so many. I suggest the building process would start with bulldozing a large hole. Placing a pre-made dome (flattened sphere) in the hole and slowly inflating , whilst covering with the soil removed from the hole.
Once inflated to the correct shape (but still at low pressure) it would be good to use damp soil that can freeze to add strength (probably need a covering to prevent sublimation ).
The dome could be a double layer and allow water to fill the space, allowing natural light to pass whilst giving radiation shielding.

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #31 on: 10/06/2017 08:17 AM »
I'm curious about the large dome.

We never really got to the bottom of how to scale domes. Either that pesky ground seam, or a full buried sphere, neither is straight forward. Like any large pressure vessel.

Either way, the stresses quickly become infeasible without internal tension elements. With internal cables, ground anchors, and a sealed floor, the dome is certainly doable.
If you bury the dome, you will not need  the internal cables , or not so many. I suggest the building process would start with bulldozing a large hole. Placing a pre-made dome (flattened sphere) in the hole and slowly inflating , whilst covering with the soil removed from the hole.
Once inflated to the correct shape (but still at low pressure) it would be good to use damp soil that can freeze to add strength (probably need a covering to prevent sublimation ).
The dome could be a double layer and allow water to fill the space, allowing natural light to pass whilst giving radiation shielding.
For large domes, the tensile stress around the perimeter (or any great circles) increases with D, so you need to keep making the walls thicker. Basically, for a fixed material, the amount of wall material is proportional to D^3.

So you're not gaining anything, except for the fact you'll lose more stuff if the dome blows, and that you'll have to build high in order to utilize the volume.

OTOH, you get large open spaces.

--

Interestingly, thicker walls weigh more, so at some point will counter the internal pressure - but only in the vertical direction.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #32 on: 10/06/2017 09:05 AM »
BTW, there was a big discussion of geodesic domes here, due to a specific Elon Musk comment

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41526

That thread is quite long. IMO it is not too important. It will be worked out by engineers with boring numbers long before it becomes an issue. Domes, Cylinders, Spheres, Toruses, Whatever.

« Last Edit: 10/06/2017 09:58 AM by KelvinZero »

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #33 on: 10/06/2017 09:52 AM »
I am not sure the first people to arrive will be colonists. If u r a colonist u will want to have a partner with u at least and maybe a family. The first mission will be specialists for construction and science maybe not room for partners maybe the odd couple may fit the bill as specialist and partners . To be honest I don't think enough is known about having a child and its development in low gravity for that to be a proposition before a load of science has been undertaken on Mars.

So first actual colonists may actually come after maybe 6-8 years after initial landing but continuous occupation for all that period. Could be totally wrong of course

Maybe it's time to revive my old thread:
Topic: Speculation and Discussion: Crew for first SpaceX Mars mission
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #34 on: 10/06/2017 03:11 PM »
Haven't seen this yet: MARTIAN HABITATS: MOLEHILLS OR GLASS HOUSES?

Most interestingly it goes into the issue of locally sourced building materials.
« Last Edit: 10/06/2017 03:14 PM by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

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If you assume about 24 crew in the first ships to arrive. They will probably need about 3-4 tonnes of consumables per person to keep them alive for 3 years. So around 100 tonnes. That leaves us with (6 x 150)-100 for the equipment to make the ISRU plant & power systems and the initial colony. 800 tonnes. There will be redundancy in the deliverables but you can do a lot with that sort of tonnage. For instance major earth moving and drilling machines, science and exploration rovers, pre fabricated buildings, machines to create Martian concrete etc. Life support equipment for the pre fabs. I wonder if bigelow can provide some initial surface habitats. 

U can be certain musk etc have given some thought to this, how otherwise would they have come up with the need for 6 ships.
Habitats were not on the short list of things to do, although I would agree that it is something that needs to happen, unless the crew ships are designed for long term habitation.
From the presentation:
First mission, 2 cargo ships. "Confirm water resources and identify hazards. Place power, mining, and life support infrastructure for future flights."
The second mission (2 cargo and 2 crew), "...the goal is to build the propellant plant. So we should, particular with six ships there, have plenty of landed mass to construct the propellant depot, which will consist of a large array of solar panels, a very large array, and then everything necessary to mine and refine water, and then draw the CO2 out of the atmosphere, and then create and store deep-cryo CH4 and O2."

Offline MikeAtkinson

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #36 on: 10/06/2017 04:12 PM »
Although we should not take the base images too seriously, note that they contain many islands of connected structures. As it is unlikely that moving from one island to another would involve a trip outside, this implies hidden tunnels connecting the structures.

Offline aero

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #37 on: 10/06/2017 11:40 PM »
If you assume about 24 crew in the first ships to arrive. They will probably need about 3-4 tonnes of consumables per person to keep them alive for 3 years. So around 100 tonnes. That leaves us with (6 x 150)-100 for the equipment to make the ISRU plant & power systems and the initial colony. 800 tonnes. There will be redundancy in the deliverables but you can do a lot with that sort of tonnage. For instance major earth moving and drilling machines, science and exploration rovers, pre fabricated buildings, machines to create Martian concrete etc. Life support equipment for the pre fabs. I wonder if bigelow can provide some initial surface habitats. 

U can be certain musk etc have given some thought to this, how otherwise would they have come up with the need for 6 ships.
Habitats were not on the short list of things to do, although I would agree that it is something that needs to happen, unless the crew ships are designed for long term habitation.
From the presentation:
First mission, 2 cargo ships. "Confirm water resources and identify hazards. Place power, mining, and life support infrastructure for future flights."
The second mission (2 cargo and 2 crew), "...the goal is to build the propellant plant. So we should, particular with six ships there, have plenty of landed mass to construct the propellant depot, which will consist of a large array of solar panels, a very large array, and then everything necessary to mine and refine water, and then draw the CO2 out of the atmosphere, and then create and store deep-cryo CH4 and O2."

Long-term habitation. How many crew members? Two ships give two or more, and those same two ships give 200 or less. So a better guess is needed. Each ship can support 100 crew for the duration of a trip to Mars, say 6 months. That is support for 18,000 person days. Two ships, 36,000 person days of supplies. We guesstimate that it is, maybe, 240 days from Earth departure to resupply on Mars. That results in supplies for 150 crew available on the two ships, 75 crew per ship. Of course, if you want to plan for missing the first resupply opportunity then that number is approximately halved.

I don't see any justification for 3 years worth of supplies per person. The first resupply opportunity is much less than 3 years and the second resupply opportunity is much more than 3 years. Three years is just enough supplies to let the crew starve slowly if the first resupply window is missed.
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Offline chalz

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #38 on: 10/07/2017 02:02 AM »
Although we should not take the base images too seriously, note that they contain many islands of connected structures. As it is unlikely that moving from one island to another would involve a trip outside, this implies hidden tunnels connecting the structures.
Or you drive between buildings in a pressurised vehicle.

Offline yg1968

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Re: SpaceX surface habs & infrastructure (from IAC 2017)
« Reply #39 on: 10/07/2017 02:11 AM »
Did you get mine ?

You shouldn't trust everything that Elon says just because he's Elon.
No one is forcing you on this thread.

We get it. These might be just totally random CGI assets. But they don't look like it, they have what looks like intentional design features made for Mars and that fit with SpaceX's architecture.

SpaceX was asked about their intentions for building a city on Mars, they said that their intention was to build the transportation for it but that they won't build the actual city. They have no intention of building a Moon base either.

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