Author Topic: Rapper B.o.B. raising funds to launch satellites to check if Earth is flat  (Read 8377 times)

Offline Star One

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Oh the irony!

Canít help feeling he knows very well it isnít flat and this is just attention seeking

Quote
But US rapper B.o.B. is crowd-funding the launch of satellites to see if he can get some evidence to the contrary.

The rapper, whose real name is Bobby Ray Simmons Jr, has been a vocal proponent of the Flat Earth theory - the claim the Earth is, in fact, a disc and not spherical.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41399164

Offline Svetoslav

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I'd ask the moderators not to delete this thread because it's an actual space mission :)

https://www.gofundme.com/showBoBthecurve

Meanwhile the Ashay Doshi's comment is hilarious:

Bro. I am totally with you on this. But we cannot trust anything but our senses. The technology you're using will make it appear that the earth is round because of the curvature of the lenses mounted on your satellite. The only way to find out if the earth is flat is by going to outer soace yourself and ejecting yourself from the spacecraft, because the window glass would also have a slight curvature making the earth look round. Then you have to get out of your space suit, becayse the glass on your space suit will curve the appearance of the earth. So onky then you will see that the earth is in fact, flat.


Offline topo334

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About time we had a Monty Python thread, the endless Spacex debates are getting Boring Co. boring.

Offline Star One

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I put it in here because it seems like a fine bit of comedy.

Offline Nomadd

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 So, it isn't turtles all the way down?

Offline NASAGeek

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He's Going to fund a satellite launch to prove his "theory"? Ok what happens when the results come back saying the Earth is in fact round. Won't he just say it's cgi or photoshopped and thus fake. Oh the irony indeed.

Offline Rocket Science

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I guess he must have fallen of the edge one night too many...
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Offline eric z

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 Yeah, Baby! If the earth is really flat, and I suspect it is- since we ain't too sharp, maybe they could use auto-tune to adjust the climate? 8)

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Offline Svetoslav

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He's Going to fund a satellite launch to prove his "theory"? Ok what happens when the results come back saying the Earth is in fact round. Won't he just say it's cgi or photoshopped and thus fake. Oh the irony indeed.

The same thing would happen when anti-vaxxers fund research and it proves them wrong :) They will deny the results :)

I am personally frustrated. I have several friends who're flat earthers. Which is curious. I am a researcher myself and I constantly meet and talk to people who're involved in the space programme - real people with real experiments in space. When those friends of mine tell me that the Earth is flat, it's almost like calling me a liar.
« Last Edit: 09/26/2017 08:33 PM by Svetoslav »

Offline Star One

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He's Going to fund a satellite launch to prove his "theory"? Ok what happens when the results come back saying the Earth is in fact round. Won't he just say it's cgi or photoshopped and thus fake. Oh the irony indeed.

The same thing would happen when anti-vaxxers fund research and it proves them wrong They will deny the results

I am personally frustrated. I have several friends who're flat earthers. Which is curious. I am a researcher myself and I constantly meet and talk to people who're involved in the space programme - real people with real experiments in space. When those friends of mine tell me that the Earth is flat, it's almost like calling me a liar.

I donít understand how intelligent people can hold this belief in this day and age. After all and contrary to popular belief a lot of people even in the Middle Ages knew the Earth was a globe.

I can go to the seaside and using one of the telescopes on the front see ships out to sea pop up over the horizon due to the curvature of the Earth.
« Last Edit: 09/26/2017 09:48 PM by Star One »

Offline Lar

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(fan) I just want to know what his bird will have that all the birds in orbit already do not have.
(mod) this is probably off topic and in need of  being closed but I am laughing too hard to find the delete button. Let's not get TOO carried away or Chris will notice.
« Last Edit: 09/26/2017 10:00 PM by Lar »
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Offline Tomness

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Offline eric z

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 In the immortal words of Pete and Roger: "It's just a put-on, put-on" {'Eminence Front'} :o

Offline savuporo

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Isn't buying a round-the-world plane ticket a whole lot easier and way cheaper ?
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Star One

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Isn't buying a round-the-world plane ticket a whole lot easier and way cheaper ?

Wouldnít going up in hot air balloon be even cheaper still to see what you needed to see it?

Online spacenut

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Maybe he can pay for a Soyuz ride or a Dragon ride next year and he can see for himself.  These are the same people who do not believe we went to the moon.  They definitely do not need to be Martian colonists early on.

Online MATTBLAK

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Fools and their money are easily parted.

I know on some level this is funny stuff - but I've been warning people for years about these clowns, and I've rarely been taken seriously. I've even been told more than once on this website that there is no such thing as a mainstream presence for these people. Well; this thread and the link is proof positive that it has been in the 'mainstream' for awhile. I was at a show by Dr Neil Degrasse-Tyson here in Auckland, New Zealand a couple months back. When Dr Tyson mentioned the achievement of the Apollo lunar missions - a Hoaxtard idiot started screaming at him from the auditorium until Security evicted him.

Over the last 20 plus years, I have done Space Exploration history and science demonstrations for Expos and museums and I've lost count the number of times I've been taken to task - sometimes bullied - by people who are 'Hoaxtards' or even Flat Earthers. I have even had death threats on Facebook and other social media - I can quote the exact wording of the worst threat from memory - but cannot point to it because the threat was removed long ago from online. I have fought these d1ckheads online and sometimes in person for more years than I can count. There was even a heated exchange I had only yesterday on Facebook with a religious extremist about the Big Bang. You may think I go out of my way to invoke these encounters - I do not. Because if you are a passionate advocate of Space Exploration and Astronomy and are very active online on mainstream websites - they will find you. Space Geeks beware - these subhumans will threaten you one day soon. Do not back down; but don't try to escalate it, either.
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Offline eric z

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 I agree almost 100% with Matt on the [bad word!]-- nonsense going on now; but in this particular case I really think these guys are just trying to attract attention to themselves and create "Hits" and $$$. "There's no such thing as bad publicity in show biz" and it has now been taken to a new level. That is different than the "Moon Landing Is Fake" or MLIF's crowd, which Matt is totally correct in using the term "Dangerous" to describe. I know a noted musician, world-class, who you would never believe could have bought into this... what do we even call it? Words seem inadequate.
 All the more reason to push ASAP for the Moon Base; it will hopefully put an end to at least this particular malarkey. ::)
« Last Edit: 09/27/2017 01:21 AM by eric z »

Offline GWH

What I find particularly special about this is that he acknowledges that rockets actually go to space, but somehow everything else is faked.  Most flat-earthers seem to be of the opinion that its impossible to go to space.

I just can't wrap my head around that kind of logic and partial denial.

Offline david1971

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A few years ago I had the honor of flying on SOFIA.  In the recent past I've had people tell me that it's the "real Hubble", that NASA uses a 747 with a big telescope to fake all of those photos.  Because a billion-dollar aircraft is better than Photoshop?

Offline Svetoslav

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What I find particularly special about this is that he acknowledges that rockets actually go to space, but somehow everything else is faked.  Most flat-earthers seem to be of the opinion that its impossible to go to space.

I just can't wrap my head around that kind of logic and partial denial.


Not all flat earthers are like this. One of my flat earthers friends said he believes that the satellites are making circles around the plane.

But now, on-topic.

OK, guys I'm a commercial spaceflight proponent. With other words, I believe that some day space should become available to the masses. Everybody should have an access to a satellite or at least to suborbital tourism.

But if everyone is able to go to space, should we question their motives?

I mean, years ago I was quite mad when Gui Laliberte went to space. I was a young boy, 22 yrs old. Now I'm almost 30 and my view has changed quite much.

Offline savuporo

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What I find particularly special about this is that he acknowledges that rockets actually go to space, but somehow everything else is faked.  Most flat-earthers seem to be of the opinion that its impossible to go to space.

I just can't wrap my head around that kind of logic and partial denial.


What partial denial ? You just lower the rope across the edge of the disc, just like the great astrozoologists of Krull did, while trying to determine the gender of the Great A'Tuin
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Svetoslav

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Meanwhile, astronaut Terry Virts:

I can save BoB a lot of money- The Earth is round.   I flew around it.

https://twitter.com/AstroTerry

Offline Star One

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Meanwhile, astronaut Terry Virts:

I can save BoB a lot of money- The Earth is round.   I flew around it.

https://twitter.com/AstroTerry

B.O.B. really needs to look up the definitions of the words satellite and orbit as this would also save him & others money. Or why we have day and night.
« Last Edit: 09/27/2017 04:39 PM by Star One »

Online mn

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I think this thread is intended to be humor only.

Any serious arguments to prove that the earth is round is probably off topic.

Online spacenut

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Let B.o.B. pay for a flight around the world on Soyuz or Dragon when they become available.  Let him spend his money so that someone can gain the profit to use to further space. 

Online mme

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I think this thread is intended to be humor only.

Any serious arguments to prove that the earth is round is probably off topic.
The fact that their are Flat Earthers in 2017 is not funny.
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline eric z

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 Please let me state this again more clearly- IMHO- this is what is called a "put-on". Bob is not serious. They are doing this for the sake of publicity, exactly like a few space projects that come up around here once in awhile. Humour is OK; this can be a very-dry site sometimes, though some people have made me laugh my behind-off. Any indignation from us just plays into their hand. They are trying to get a rise out of people, which translates into sales and gigs and $$. I'm from the record biz and I've seen a lot of this over the years. Yes, Virginia, there are MLIFakers and Flat-Brainers out there but this particular case is not one of them. If I am wrong, I will volunteer to do a year at the DSG...
 I actually admire this escapade, because it is stimulating a discussion about a scientific-issue that teachers and educators can focus their students on, so hopefully a lot of good will come of it down the road.
 We can't even make UFO jokes anymore; it might have been a drone they saw that night!
« Last Edit: 09/27/2017 06:12 PM by eric z »

Online mme

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Please let me state this again more clearly- IMHO- this is what is called a "put-on". Bob is not serious. They are doing this for the sake of publicity, exactly like a few space projects that come up around here once in awhile. Humour is OK; this can be a very-dry site sometimes, though some people have made me laugh my behind-off. Any indignation from us just plays into their hand. They are trying to get a rise out of people, which translates into sales and gigs and $$. I'm from the record biz and I've seen a lot of this over the years. Yes, Virginia, there are MLIFakers and Flat-Brainers out there but this particular case is not one of them. If I am wrong, I will volunteer to do a year at the DSG...
 I actually admire this escapade, because it is stimulating a discussion about a scientific-issue that teachers and educators can focus their students on, so hopefully a lot of good will come of it down the road.
 We can't even make UFO jokes anymore; it might have been a drone they saw that night!
I worry how this will play out. Even if it is a "put-on", he can influence his audience.  I don't really care if doubling-down on the crazy is helpful for his career and he doesn't really believe it.  As a matter of fact it could be worse if he is doing it purely for attention.  If it works, why would he ever stop? Kickstarter not funded? Shut down by the elites! Got back pictures of the "curve"? Someone hacked the project!

I hope he gets the satellite launched and I hope he then becomes a "Ball Earther." But I've seen enough crazy and I don't think that's how this will play out.

On a lighter note, maybe we could rewrite the lyrics to "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" as "50 Ways to be a Curver"?
Space is not Highlander.  There can, and will, be more than one.

Offline eric z

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 mme- you may be making me rethink this thing- In the Age of the Fake News can we afford the luxury of laughing off these type of stunts? Very probably not? What's next:" Invisible Plutonians are eating our Honey Bees" in the supermarket tabloids?

Offline Lar

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If I am wrong, I will volunteer to do a year at the DSG...

How exactly is that a punishment? I might be missing something there.

Yes, this site is pretty dry. Most people like it that way.... that's not the same as completely humorless. (not intended to start a conversation on the nature of humor)
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Online MATTBLAK

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Let B.o.B. pay for a flight around the world on Soyuz or Dragon when they become available.  Let him spend his money so that someone can gain the profit to use to further space. 
For a lot less money - relatively speaking - BoB can book a MIG-31 or MIG-29 flight near Moscow through 'Space Adventures' and other agencies. They will zoom him up to 70,000 feet - over 21km - where he could see the subtle curve of the Earth for himself. Or; send up a weather balloon-derivative with a fixed-focus camera to over 120,000 feet - 36km - and take pictures. End of story...

The MIGs can actually go a lot higher than 70,000 - but then the aircraft becomes harder to control sometimes, which might put the passenger's life in danger.
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline KelvinZero

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He can presumably afford an hour-long call to one of his friends somewhere where it is noon while he watches the sun set.

Offline Svetoslav

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If B.o.B.'s attempts were ridiculous and laughable, this is getting ridiculous... and dangerous:

https://apnews.com/9d8e5e8e9245412ab80f5a1f58d885b7/Self-taught-rocket-scientist-plans-to-launch-over-ghost-town

Offline ugordan

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If B.o.B.'s attempts were ridiculous and laughable, this is getting ridiculous... and dangerous:

https://apnews.com/9d8e5e8e9245412ab80f5a1f58d885b7/Self-taught-rocket-scientist-plans-to-launch-over-ghost-town

(bold mine)

ďI donít believe in science,Ē said Hughes, whose main sponsor for the rocket is Research Flat Earth. ďI know about aerodynamics and fluid dynamics and how things move through the air, about the certain size of rocket nozzles, and thrust. But thatís not science, thatís just a formula. Thereís no difference between science and science fiction.Ē


Okay.


Offline Svetoslav

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Yah :)

Still, I'll be following the upcoming launch. Y'know, it's not often that a manned rocket launches :D

Offline tea monster

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For one thing, B.o.B. can't be that much of an idiot, he hasn't pledged any of his own money for this crazy scheme, he's using other idiots money through a crowd funding site.

I remember when I was reading SF novels in the 70s and 80s, and half the time, the brave heroes would be doing battle against a group of organized, counter-technology baddies. Looking back on those times, what really hurts is that it appears they won after all. Today we have a flat Earth society, Lunar hoax 'truthers'and anti-vaxers all trying to drag us back into the stone-age. That has all come to pass. All the promised lunar colonies, solar power sats and belt settlements never occurred.  :(
« Last Edit: 11/21/2017 03:58 PM by tea monster »

Offline Star One

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For one thing, B.o.B. can't be that much of an idiot, he hasn't pledged any of his own money for this crazy scheme, he's using other idiots money through a crowd funding site.

I remember when I was reading SF novels in the 70s and 80s, and half the time, the brave heroes would be doing battle against a group of organized, counter-technology baddies. Looking back on those times, what really hurts is that it appears they won after all. Today we have a flat Earth society, Lunar hoax 'truthers'and anti-vaxers all trying to drag us back into the stone-age. That has all come to pass. All the promised lunar colonies, solar power sats and belt settlements never occurred.  :(

Ironically facilitated by the internet, PCs & smartphones. I donít think these chumps get the irony.

Offline the_other_Doug

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B.o.B. can't be that much of an idiot

He's acting like that much of an idiot.

Maybe it would make *real* rocket scientists look better if this idiot killed himself outright -- the obit being headlined "Idiot who didn't believe in science kills self trying to fly a rocket he designed".  It would certainly rid the gene pool of obviously defective intelligence genetics.

It might help the rap genre, too -- imagine, a rap performer who didn't die from gun violence.  That could be a game-changer.  It'd certainly be unique.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline meberbs

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B.o.B. can't be that much of an idiot

He's acting like that much of an idiot.

Maybe it would make *real* rocket scientists look better if this idiot killed himself outright -- the obit being headlined "Idiot who didn't believe in science kills self trying to fly a rocket he designed".  It would certainly rid the gene pool of obviously defective intelligence genetics.

It might help the rap genre, too -- imagine, a rap performer who didn't die from gun violence.  That could be a game-changer.  It'd certainly be unique.
I think you got some signals crossed, it is a different anti-science idiot who is trying to blow himself up in a rocket rather than get much higher by just buying a ticket on a typical passenger plane. The rapper doesn't have anything directly to do with that.

Offline the_other_Doug

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B.o.B. can't be that much of an idiot

He's acting like that much of an idiot.

Maybe it would make *real* rocket scientists look better if this idiot killed himself outright -- the obit being headlined "Idiot who didn't believe in science kills self trying to fly a rocket he designed".  It would certainly rid the gene pool of obviously defective intelligence genetics.

It might help the rap genre, too -- imagine, a rap performer who didn't die from gun violence.  That could be a game-changer.  It'd certainly be unique.
I think you got some signals crossed, it is a different anti-science idiot who is trying to blow himself up in a rocket rather than get much higher by just buying a ticket on a typical passenger plane. The rapper doesn't have anything directly to do with that.

Thanks for the clarification.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline topo334

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As Eric Z sez:

"They are trying to get a rise out of people, which translates into sales and gigs and $$. I'm from the record biz and I've seen a lot of this over the years."

Show biz folks.

Online Blackstar

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As Eric Z sez:

"They are trying to get a rise out of people, which translates into sales and gigs and $$. I'm from the record biz and I've seen a lot of this over the years."

Show biz folks.

Did ya hear that Kid Rock is running for Congress?

Offline tea monster

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You would think that electing a reality-TV-star plutocrat would have wised people up to this, but I don't think so.

With all the loonies gaining power around the world, I find myself thinking like a James Bond villian sometimes. Maybe Drax from Moonraker was onto something after all...

Offline Archibald

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I would say: let him goes to the deep end of his siliness.

At best, he will crash and either die or get humiliated.

 At worse, we will get a funny video out of the stupid thing  "The man who tried very  hard to be Wile E. Coyote"  ;D  (and he didn't even bought the rocket from ACME: he build it !)
« Last Edit: 11/24/2017 08:27 AM by Archibald »

Offline Archibald

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Quote
I think you got some signals crossed, it is a different anti-science idiot who is trying to blow himself up in a rocket rather than get much higher by just buying a ticket on a typical passenger plane. The rapper doesn't have anything directly to do with that.

But none of the two is worth a thread on this forum. Much less two separate threads: it would be a loss of bandwidth.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2017 08:25 AM by Archibald »

Offline woods170

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Yah :)

Still, I'll be following the upcoming launch. Y'know, it's not often that a manned rocket launches :D
Yah.

I just wonder how long it will take for some conspiracy-theorists to claim the flight ended in failure because it was sabotaged by the CIA in order to prevent discovery of aliens being hidden at Area 51.  ;)
« Last Edit: 11/24/2017 08:31 AM by woods170 »

Offline Star One

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Quote
I think you got some signals crossed, it is a different anti-science idiot who is trying to blow himself up in a rocket rather than get much higher by just buying a ticket on a typical passenger plane. The rapper doesn't have anything directly to do with that.

But none of the two is worth a thread on this forum. Much less two separate threads: it would be a loss of bandwidth.

Someone appears to be suffering from a sense of humour failure. I partly started this thread to be more light hearted. After all if you donít like it no one is forcing you to post in this thread.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2017 11:41 AM by Star One »

Offline Star One

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« Last Edit: 11/25/2017 11:09 AM by Star One »

Offline Archibald

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Quote
I think you got some signals crossed, it is a different anti-science idiot who is trying to blow himself up in a rocket rather than get much higher by just buying a ticket on a typical passenger plane. The rapper doesn't have anything directly to do with that.

But none of the two is worth a thread on this forum. Much less two separate threads: it would be a loss of bandwidth.

Someone appears to be suffering from a sense of humour failure. I partly started this thread to be more light hearted. After all if you donít like it no one is forcing you to post in this thread.

See my post above for the lack of humour. I have little patience for flat earther idiots and fringe science.

Offline Hauerg

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....

I am personally frustrated. I have several friends who're flat earthers. Which is curious. I am a researcher myself and I constantly meet and talk to people who're involved in the space programme - real people with real experiments in space. When those friends of mine tell me that the Earth is flat, it's almost like calling me a liar.

Just a question from a curious European:

Are your friends certified idiots or is this just the next stage that comes after denying climate change??

Offline Star One

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Quote
I think you got some signals crossed, it is a different anti-science idiot who is trying to blow himself up in a rocket rather than get much higher by just buying a ticket on a typical passenger plane. The rapper doesn't have anything directly to do with that.

But none of the two is worth a thread on this forum. Much less two separate threads: it would be a loss of bandwidth.

Someone appears to be suffering from a sense of humour failure. I partly started this thread to be more light hearted. After all if you donít like it no one is forcing you to post in this thread.

See my post above for the lack of humour. I have little patience for flat earther idiots and fringe science.

Nor do I but the best response is the laughter of derision not giving them any kind of serious thought.

Offline Nomadd

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 Lawnchair Larry hit 15,000 feet for a lot less money, and had a 100% safety record.

Offline Phil Stooke

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Hmm, I wonder if the Moon is flat as well?  I could take these guys seriously if they went to the Moon to check out its shape.  Until then... not so much.

Offline Svetoslav

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Just a question from a curious European:

Are your friends certified idiots or is this just the next stage that comes after denying climate change??

Well, that's a very interesting question - one I was wrestling myself for quite a long time this year.

Are they certified idiots? Do we mean "idiots" in the medical sense? Is their IQ low (like, below average)? Well, no. We notice that in their life they're managing quite well. They have jobs - some of them prestigious ones. They have families. They have kids. They have friends. In a sense - they appear able to manage their life, so we could expect them to have an average IQ, well, at least above 80-85. Then we have to remember that IQ is just a number that measures certain analytical skills. It doesn't describe the person as a whole, including his/her motivations, philosophical predispositions, interests, attention, lifestyle etc etc..

Is this the next stage of believing woo? Perhaps. One of the people I know (married, with a job, a B.Sc. degree in economy studies!!! quite charismatic and has a lot of friends) has quite a lot of strange beliefs. He believes that certain elder politicians (which I won't name) live to the age of 90 and above, because they kill their children and take their organs for transplantation. He is currently trying to convince quite a lot of other people I know, and he genuinely believes that. He also believes that when a lot of people get sick during the autumn/winter season, it no coincindence and he's certain it's due to Chemtrails being spread by the airplanes.

And yes, he believes in the flat Earth theory...

It's amazing to see such a person who is able to survive and have a job and family, so deluded about the world. But that's true, and he's not alone. So what do I do? I ask him: do you rely solely on Youtube conspiracy channels? -No. -Do you read books? -Yes, he says - I read a lot of books.

It's quite an interesting psychological phenomena. Not that certain people like that are genuinely crazy - they just have their strange beliefs to cling to and defend uncritically, and after they choose what to believe in, only subsequently start to rationalize.

It's very hard to prove a round earth to somebody who says he believes in what his eyes see, and has no background in astronomy and space sciences. Some of us may know about satellites, their orbits and how the rockets work. But laypeople always come with some kind of rationalization and yes, even a flat earth theory can be rationalized ... kinda.

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Isn't buying a round-the-world plane ticket a whole lot easier and way cheaper ?

Wouldn’t going up in hot air balloon be even cheaper still to see what you needed to see it?

Wouldn't downloading the video from youtube be even cheaper?

« Last Edit: 11/26/2017 06:45 PM by Lee Jay »

Offline Star One

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They donít believe videos on You Tube as they think they are all fakes.

Online Lee Jay

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They donít believe videos on You Tube as they think they are all fakes.

What do these nuts think holds up geosynchronous satellites?

Offline Star One

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They donít believe videos on You Tube as they think they are all fakes.

What do these nuts think holds up geosynchronous satellites?

I can only suppose they think they donít exist. Who knows how these individuals think and justify this nonsense to themselves!

Online Lee Jay

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They donít believe videos on You Tube as they think they are all fakes.

What do these nuts think holds up geosynchronous satellites?

I can only suppose they think they donít exist. Who knows how these individuals think and justify this nonsense to themselves!

Well, the one the dish on the back of my house is pointing to seems to work.  I'm wondering how I get TV from a satellite that doesn't exist.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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They donít believe videos on You Tube as they think they are all fakes.

What do these nuts think holds up geosynchronous satellites?

Alabama's god? Also appears to be quite the current advocate of pederasty too at the moment.

Only place I've ever run into flat earthers. Ironically enroute to MSFC.  ::)

(If you research this guy, he's done this kind of thing many times. Becomes a new believer in things real fast.)

Offline meberbs

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It's very hard to prove a round earth to somebody who says he believes in what his eyes see, and has no background in astronomy and space sciences. Some of us may know about satellites, their orbits and how the rockets work. But laypeople always come with some kind of rationalization and yes, even a flat earth theory can be rationalized ... kinda.
But that is the crazy thing about flat Earth theories. They are trivial to disprove with your own eyes.

-Climb a mountain for a better view
-Or look out the window of a plane
-Go to an ocean/large lake and watch ships sail over the horizon
--refraction only lets you see farther (but not much at optical frequencies)
-time zones
--And spotlight sun doesn't make sense, because then the sun wouldn't show up at the horizon.

Satellites and such require only slightly more technical knowledge. You can get a directional antenna and track satellite signals (such as GPS). You can get GPS receivers that output the raw data. The Doppler shift can be measured for independent velocity measurement.

With the right camera, you can photograph the ISS silhouette as it pass crosses the sun or moon, or the ISS itself.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/02/28/ridiculously-awesome-pic-of-discovery-and-the-iss-taken-from-the-ground/

Note that the photo in that link was taken from the ground with a hand steered telescope.

Offline meberbs

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(If you research this guy, he's done this kind of thing many times. Becomes a new believer in things real fast.)
Do you mean the guy with the rocket?

I noted one article mentioned that after he failed to croudfund his rocket, he called up a flat earth organization and told them that he was a recent convert and wanted money for his rocket.

I now have my doubts that his belief is sincere, but promoting anti-science theories when you know they are wrong is even worse than just being that deluded.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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(If you research this guy, he's done this kind of thing many times. Becomes a new believer in things real fast.)
Do you mean the guy with the rocket?
Yes.

My wife sitting next to me decided to deep research him. Found a pattern of activity where he thinks he can con people for various reasons into funding some kind of event to make him famous. He gets "devout" for each of them, it fails, he finds another.

Quote
I noted one article mentioned that after he failed to croudfund his rocket, he called up a flat earth organization and told them that he was a recent convert and wanted money for his rocket.

I now have my doubts that his belief is sincere, but promoting anti-science theories when you know they are wrong is even worse than just being that deluded.

Think the whole point is to attract enough attention that some Wealthy John Q. Idiot tosses enough money into his hare brained stunt that somehow gets him into the history books so he's not the total loser he appears to be.

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This guy is not that far off. ďThe main purpose of my talk is to demonstrate to you that no science is being taught in Brazil!Ē -- Richard Feynman.

To a lot (if not most) people, science is a bunch of equations in funny letters or sentences carrying abstract meanings to write down and memorize (correctly!). You use them to pass exams, to enter some school and get certificated to hold some job, so you can have money to pay bills. All that has little to do with science. Once you pass the trial of education, only science matters to you are probably those in science fictions.

Some commenter was aghast about how seemingly educated and competent people could hold such ridiculous and fundamentally wrong concept(s). I think modern society shields those people from most (if not all) bad consequences. Everyday life is just pushing a few buttons to enable the technology to do the wonder. If believing there a million goblins behind the screen painting every pixel in real-time doesn't affect how I use the TV, what could prevent me from holding that belief? Actually modern society rewards those people. There is no true believers, only profiteers.

Offline Svetoslav

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I now have my doubts that his belief is sincere, but promoting anti-science theories when you know they are wrong is even worse than just being that deluded.

There are two types of people: 1. Those who do it for profit or attention, without necessarily believing in what they spread and 2. The so called "useful idiots". Yes, it's hard to distinguish whether a person is in category 1. or 2.

I popularize science and space exploration in Bulgaria - I do it for more than a decade and this is what I'm famous for. Thus said, I remember when the Moon hoax theory started gaining movement and appeared on TV.

I had the chance to speak to some quite renowned journalists who spoke publicly about the moon hoax. I asked them: "Why are you spreading nonsense that people never went to the Moon?" Amazingly, some of those people replied: "I never claimed that I believe in the Moon hoax. It's just there's another view of what happened and I have to show it to the people".

This is what modern journalism is about. Different people hold different views, and whether a view will be broadcasted or not depends only on whether it's popular and (or) interesting to the broad audience. A journalist is just a medium - his only job is to spread the different views. Democracy is partly to blame - somehow we've come to the conclusion, as Isaac Asimov once said, that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge". There's no objective truth, there are only different viewpoints. Thus such journalists don't feel guilty. They spread the viewpoints and that's perfectly OK - let History show which viewpoint is right or wrong.

But if different views are equally valuable and treated as facts, it's only natural that sooner or later we'll start talking about "true facts" and "alternative facts".

Offline Star One

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I find it ironic that itís the advance of technology and science in the form of the internet that has allowed anti-science sentiments to spread so far and wide.

Offline Celebrimbor

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I struggle to feel anything about this topic.  Someone wants to believe the world is flat?  It is.  Locally at least, to a first approximation.  If, like the vast majority of Earth's population, you live your life as an uncaring consumer of services who very rarely travels more than 1000 miles from home: your world is effectively flat.

The topology of the Earth, spherical or otherwise, is of no consequence to most of our daily interactions.

Where this matters is in public funding for global services. But it does not take faith in spherical global topology to use GPS.  Of course if you want to develop it or pay for it, you will have to accept whatever topology nature has seen fit to give us.

What I'm saying is, let's not get frustrated trying to persuade people.  Let's just be ready to be experts and engineers when people come asking for the ability to communicate from one side of the planet to another.

If people are actively rebelling against their own education then so what?  The only people they affect is themselves.

Fool: "The world is flat!!!!"
Me: "Gosh"
« Last Edit: 11/27/2017 12:20 PM by Celebrimbor »

Offline RonM

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If people are actively rebelling against their own education then so what?  The only people they affect is themselves.

Once the antiscience crowd reaches critical mass, then antiscience politicians are elected. It goes downhill quickly from there.

Offline Celebrimbor

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I'm not advocating antiscience stances. Just trying (badly) to point out that the important test is in the engineering of solutions where the (specific) science matters.

For people not engaged in engineering, many hard won scientific truths are somewhere between philosophy and religion - and equally as irrelevant to their day to day lives.  Relax about it and get on with selling well-thought-through engineering solutions to the ignorant 😎

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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I find it ironic that itís the advance of technology and science in the form of the internet that has allowed anti-science sentiments to spread so far and wide.
Suggest that human nature is always challenged head on by the force of potential change.

Often it is abused, taken by opportunists of various stripes to whatever end they can reach with it. Then humanity is forced to sort out what they like/don't like, and set conduct/duty/incentives/expectations accordingly (hasn't happened yet with the current,inspired culture wars).

For people not engaged in engineering, many hard won scientific truths are somewhere between philosophy and religion - and equally as irrelevant to their day to day lives.
Yet they make use of them, like ISIS/others do to, to attack/destroy with.

Quote
Relax about it and get on with selling well-thought-through engineering solutions to the ignorant 😎
Tried that with the "flat earther" I mentioned above. Within sight of the facility.

Some have suggested to me the expedient of denying to the willful ignorant any access to medical/other technology as a form of "conscious  objection',  formally made a part of profession oaths/duties/expectation. So you can't have it both ways.

Idea has merit.

Among other things, it deals with con men like this, as well as the fantastic amount of hypocrisy drowning dedication to duty/profession.

Offline Star One

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I find it ironic that itís the advance of technology and science in the form of the internet that has allowed anti-science sentiments to spread so far and wide.
Suggest that human nature is always challenged head on by the force of potential change.

Often it is abused, taken by opportunists of various stripes to whatever end they can reach with it. Then humanity is forced to sort out what they like/don't like, and set conduct/duty/incentives/expectations accordingly (hasn't happened yet with the current,inspired culture wars).

For people not engaged in engineering, many hard won scientific truths are somewhere between philosophy and religion - and equally as irrelevant to their day to day lives.
Yet they make use of them, like ISIS/others do to, to attack/destroy with.

Quote
Relax about it and get on with selling well-thought-through engineering solutions to the ignorant
Tried that with the "flat earther" I mentioned above. Within sight of the facility.

Some have suggested to me the expedient of denying to the willful ignorant any access to medical/other technology as a form of "conscious  objection',  formally made a part of profession oaths/duties/expectation. So you can't have it both ways.

Idea has merit.

Among other things, it deals with con men like this, as well as the fantastic amount of hypocrisy drowning dedication to duty/profession.

Iíve seen a few suggest that this anti-science tide is a reaction to increasing automation and the fears that this brings to many regarding their jobs. Almost like a modern outbreak of Luddism.
« Last Edit: 11/27/2017 09:43 PM by Star One »

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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I find it ironic that itís the advance of technology and science in the form of the internet that has allowed anti-science sentiments to spread so far and wide.
Suggest that human nature is always challenged head on by the force of potential change.

Often it is abused, taken by opportunists of various stripes to whatever end they can reach with it. Then humanity is forced to sort out what they like/don't like, and set conduct/duty/incentives/expectations accordingly (hasn't happened yet with the current,inspired culture wars).

For people not engaged in engineering, many hard won scientific truths are somewhere between philosophy and religion - and equally as irrelevant to their day to day lives.
Yet they make use of them, like ISIS/others do to, to attack/destroy with.

Quote
Relax about it and get on with selling well-thought-through engineering solutions to the ignorant
Tried that with the "flat earther" I mentioned above. Within sight of the facility.

Some have suggested to me the expedient of denying to the willful ignorant any access to medical/other technology as a form of "conscious  objection',  formally made a part of profession oaths/duties/expectation. So you can't have it both ways.

Idea has merit.

Among other things, it deals with con men like this, as well as the fantastic amount of hypocrisy drowning dedication to duty/profession.

Iíve seen a few suggest that this anti-science tide is a reaction to increasing automation and the fears that this brings to many regarding their jobs. Almost like a modern outbreak of Luddism.
There is something to that.

One area I cover in DD (due dilligence) is applications of AI. Many times when you see where it is to displace human interaction, you get a huge amount of unpredictable surprises, both in the social/political responses (on the right/left), its effectiveness, ways to react to it, and the net benefit of its application. Normally you'd think it is cut and dried - couldn't be further from the truth.

Its application in aerospace is particularly perilous - presumptions here of "how things should be done" are extremely rigid and often unexamined/unjustified. Perhaps because all are in such a rush they've gotten used to snap judgements where they don't feel compelled to break them down. So the "Luddite" mentality is rather higher than elsewhere, especially well-educated. Surprise.

In areas involving social work and the poor, where you might expect Luddism (and depression) to play a larger role, it's much the opposite. They seemingly accept the stuff if it blithely "makes things better". Hard part is the access to the users, because those that oversight them have rigid notions of the only ways things should work, and that's where opposition snaps in.

So as a litmus test for you, find any bastion of "rigid thought" and theirs some Luddites nearby, perhaps ready to throw their sabot's into the automation if they can.

Bending the world to fit their reality.

Offline KelvinZero

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I think one of the attractions of space flight is that you cannot be divorced from reality and get something to orbit. It is a bit like the canary in the coal mine.


Offline the_other_Doug

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I find it ironic that itís the advance of technology and science in the form of the internet that has allowed anti-science sentiments to spread so far and wide.
Suggest that human nature is always challenged head on by the force of potential change.

Often it is abused, taken by opportunists of various stripes to whatever end they can reach with it. Then humanity is forced to sort out what they like/don't like, and set conduct/duty/incentives/expectations accordingly (hasn't happened yet with the current,inspired culture wars).

For people not engaged in engineering, many hard won scientific truths are somewhere between philosophy and religion - and equally as irrelevant to their day to day lives.
Yet they make use of them, like ISIS/others do to, to attack/destroy with.

Quote
Relax about it and get on with selling well-thought-through engineering solutions to the ignorant
Tried that with the "flat earther" I mentioned above. Within sight of the facility.

Some have suggested to me the expedient of denying to the willful ignorant any access to medical/other technology as a form of "conscious  objection',  formally made a part of profession oaths/duties/expectation. So you can't have it both ways.

Idea has merit.

Among other things, it deals with con men like this, as well as the fantastic amount of hypocrisy drowning dedication to duty/profession.

Iíve seen a few suggest that this anti-science tide is a reaction to increasing automation and the fears that this brings to many regarding their jobs. Almost like a modern outbreak of Luddism.
There is something to that.

One area I cover in DD (due dilligence) is applications of AI. Many times when you see where it is to displace human interaction, you get a huge amount of unpredictable surprises, both in the social/political responses (on the right/left), its effectiveness, ways to react to it, and the net benefit of its application. Normally you'd think it is cut and dried - couldn't be further from the truth.

Its application in aerospace is particularly perilous - presumptions here of "how things should be done" are extremely rigid and often unexamined/unjustified. Perhaps because all are in such a rush they've gotten used to snap judgements where they don't feel compelled to break them down. So the "Luddite" mentality is rather higher than elsewhere, especially well-educated. Surprise.

In areas involving social work and the poor, where you might expect Luddism (and depression) to play a larger role, it's much the opposite. They seemingly accept the stuff if it blithely "makes things better". Hard part is the access to the users, because those that oversight them have rigid notions of the only ways things should work, and that's where opposition snaps in.

So as a litmus test for you, find any bastion of "rigid thought" and theirs some Luddites nearby, perhaps ready to throw their sabot's into the automation if they can.

Bending the world to fit their reality.

My own theory on the matter, developed over years of doing phone support for internet connectivity issues, is that people get more and more uncomfortable as the scope and breadth of the things they absolutely depend on for survival grow farther and farther outside of their ability to comprehend.

In internet support, about 80% of the great unwashed masses out there don't have a single clue how any of this stuff works.  If, from first principles, you informed a group of people that the internet was based on magic spells and incantations, they would believe it.  It is that far outside of their experience of how to control their own worlds.

The Luddite reaction comes in when the technology is not perfect, and has a noticeable error rate.  If you are unlucky enough to encounter one of the inevitable errors, and you do not have either the knowledge base, or the basic mental ability, to be able to understand the error, much less the system in which the error occurred...you feel stupid.  You feel like something just abandoned you that you are not prepared to fix.  Because you can't understand it, or how it works.

And in those cases, people don't get honest with themselves and have the self-realization that they either have not put in the work, or just don't have the base capability, to understand the systems upon which they depend.  They begin to feel like it can't be their fault -- so, that leaves it to be the fault of someone else.  And the only reason someone else would do that to them is, of course, because they are being systematically persecuted.

Therefore, people of all sorts begin to feel like the "smart" people set up these systems, not to serve their users to the best of their ability, but to persecute those who use them.  Either systematically, or at random.

Which leads to the "us regular people vs. all them hoity-toity smart people who get their kicks by messing with people like me, well, I'll show them, think they can keep me off of the Facebook, I'll just go down to the Comcast store with my shotgun..." mentality.  Anti-science and Luddism in full flower.

The only answer to this is to stop dumbing down the explanations of how things work in our school systems, and to do what you can to provide a universal understanding of how these systems are designed and built.  Maybe you don't have the math or logic skills to actually help build them, but hey, you might not have the artistic skills to be a painter or illustrator, either.

Just as important, the developers -- who understand and create the technology -- need to stop dismissing any attempt at giving less-technically-talented people an idea of what goes into these systems by just telling them "Well, you're not smart enough to understand, so don't bother.  Just trust me -- and you have to trust me, since you're FAR too stupid to really understand a word I say -- this is how it works, and if it's not working right, it has to be that you're simply too stupid to use it."

So, it's not just that less-talented people are upset; it's also that more-talented people enjoy feeling, and being treated, like "wizards" by mystifying what they do.  That kind of attitude doesn't help, either.

In the final analysis, I think I agree with David Brin's image of the near future of humanity -- if you want to be a citizen, with voting rights and rights to advanced education, you have to take the time, and make the effort, to understand things.  If you can't be bothered, then you have fewer rights to exert your uninformed view of the world onto the rest of us.  If you want to feel persecuted, fine -- but that doesn't give you the right to insist that science doesn't exist, and to try to impose your perverse view about it via the results of a referendum on the matter.

Given the correct set of circumstances, I can provide you referenda which would "prove" without a shadow of a doubt that day is night, black is white, and, indeed, sh*t is shinola.

Because, when we get to that point, you might as well start using magic spells and incantations as your primary means of molding your reality.  You've devolved into completely rejecting rational behavior.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Celebrimbor

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Good post the other Doug.

But I disagree on your answer. Separating society into cans and cannots is a surefire way to civil war and ultimately genocide.

In your post it was the "I'm going to get my shotgun" response that shone through as the problem.

It doesn't take much to push pretty much anyone into the Luddite category.  As an expert, can you yourself explain the 11 top algorithms that make the internet work?  Could you rebuild the whole thing from scratch?  Of course not.

http://www.businessinsider.com/internet-algorithms-2011-8?IR=T

There are scientific truths that we just take on faith.  That's fine.

Let's just keep guns out of it...

Offline whitelancer64

A big part of it is the failure of basic education in the US. For example, I encounter people on conspiracy pages that have zero understanding of the first principles of science. To get to the point where they can understand that they're wrong would require several courses in both basic and the more advanced sciences (and ideally a course in logic), that neither do I have the time to teach them nor do they have any willingness to learn.

So I (Doug) agree with the_other_Doug, a great place to start is "to stop dumbing down the explanations of how things work in our school systems," as that would very much help combat the basic misunderstandings of how the world around us works that is at the foundation of so much anti-science sentiment.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Online zhangmdev

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I don't think that is Luddism. No flat-earther or whatever conspiracist destroyed anything, instigated riots, or disrupted any scientific research project, yet. They are just a form of religious movement. Kind of nuisance but mostly harmless, excluding anti-vaxxers. If they are true to their belief, I'd expect they quit using Internet at least. Obvious they still enjoy the power and convenience technology brings.

I don't buy the "if their number reaches critical mass" threat. Just look at those politicians right now. Look how intelligent and upstanding a bunch they are.

Offline Star One

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A big part of it is the failure of basic education in the US. For example, I encounter people on conspiracy pages that have zero understanding of the first principles of science. To get to the point where they can understand that they're wrong would require several courses in both basic and the more advanced sciences (and ideally a course in logic), that neither do I have the time to teach them nor do they have any willingness to learn.

So I (Doug) agree with the_other_Doug, a great place to start is "to stop dumbing down the explanations of how things work in our school systems," as that would very much help combat the basic misunderstandings of how the world around us works that is at the foundation of so much anti-science sentiment.

Does this worry you that longer term it may impact the supply of quality workers to areas since as the Spaceflight industry in the US?

Offline whitelancer64

I don't think that is Luddism. No flat-earther or whatever conspiracist destroyed anything, instigated riots, or disrupted any scientific research project, yet. They are just a form of religious movement. Kind of nuisance but mostly harmless, excluding anti-vaxxers. If they are true to their belief, I'd expect they quit using Internet at least. Obvious they still enjoy the power and convenience technology brings.

I don't buy the "if their number reaches critical mass" threat. Just look at those politicians right now. Look how intelligent and upstanding a bunch they are.

Well, chemtrail believers are known to aim lasers at airplanes. This is a big enough problem that the FBI has a $10,000 reward program and a hotline for the public to report anyone who does it.

Relatedly, people shoot guns at airplanes with alarming frequency, low-flying aircraft and crop-dusters are hit a couple times per year, and every now and then in the news you'll hear about a passenger plane with a bullet hole in it.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline whitelancer64

A big part of it is the failure of basic education in the US. For example, I encounter people on conspiracy pages that have zero understanding of the first principles of science. To get to the point where they can understand that they're wrong would require several courses in both basic and the more advanced sciences (and ideally a course in logic), that neither do I have the time to teach them nor do they have any willingness to learn.

So I (Doug) agree with the_other_Doug, a great place to start is "to stop dumbing down the explanations of how things work in our school systems," as that would very much help combat the basic misunderstandings of how the world around us works that is at the foundation of so much anti-science sentiment.

Does this worry you that longer term it may impact the supply of quality workers to areas since as the Spaceflight industry in the US?

I don't think that is an imminent concern - we have a good supply of aerospace engineering graduates; there are several universities devoted to the discipline - and lots of highly-educated people move to the US for the occupational opportunities that are available here. I know we do need more people in the medical field.

We do need to improve our education systems, though, and part of that is getting people the education they need not only to survive through life, but to thrive. Simply being a college graduate isn't a guaranteed pass to the middle class anymore (and it hasn't been for a good while now), as I myself can attest. I think that more workforce-focused education - starting in high school and emphasized in college - coupled with shifting higher-level science and math concepts earlier in the educational process will help. For example, I'd like to see an introductory physics course and a course in logic being required to graduate high school.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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FWIW.

How to Offend Everyone: Create a Map that Compares the Education Level in Each State to a Corresponding Country:



It would be even more offending if broken down by counties/parishes within states, likely matching tiny obscure african/asian/south pacific countries ...

BTW, the irony is that the Internet allows greater access to ignorance as well as education, needed most in remote regions, but with the loss of things like net neutrality, likely rural access will be the first to go, because more can be made off of "upselling" wealthier areas ... making things much worse for them.

Online zhangmdev

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Well, chemtrail believers are known to aim lasers at airplanes. This is a big enough problem that the FBI has a $10,000 reward program and a hotline for the public to report anyone who does it.

Relatedly, people shoot guns at airplanes with alarming frequency, low-flying aircraft and crop-dusters are hit a couple times per year, and every now and then in the news you'll hear about a passenger plane with a bullet hole in it.

I am not sure how much Luddism contributes to that kind of behavior. Or bored teenage playing shenanigans. Or angry old man shouting at the cloud. If the authority tells people do not point laser at airliners, do not shoot stuff, or do not play with your phone while driving, people are bound to do the contrary no matter what.

There is always grievance and consternation. People tend to put blame on someone or something. Awful a lot professions went extinct because of new technologies. Yet that was no large scale destruction of technology. Domestic servants did not threat to destroy washing machines and vacuum cleaners, or microwaves. Shipyard workers used to build ocean liners did not call for destruction of jet airliners. I don't know any assembly line worker riot and smash up industrial robots. Worry about modern Luddism is unwarranted.

Online zhangmdev

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Create a Map that Compares the Education Level in Each State to a Corresponding Country

Remind me an essay read a while back. Basically an average Chinese kid could not get high score in his class. No hope entering top Chinese colleges, he chose the alternative way. His parent sent him to finish high school education in UK. To his surprise, it was pretty easy to score high there. Boom, he was accepted by Cambridge. That Cambridge! He studies mathematics the same place where Issac Newton did. Later he got MBA, employed by Goldman Sachs, went to America, bla bla, realizing the childhood dream which is making tons of money.

That is where smart people come from and go into.

Online Blackstar

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My own theory on the matter, developed over years of doing phone support for internet connectivity issues, is that people get more and more uncomfortable as the scope and breadth of the things they absolutely depend on for survival grow farther and farther outside of their ability to comprehend.

In internet support, about 80% of the great unwashed masses out there don't have a single clue how any of this stuff works.

But, before we get all superior and pat ourselves on the backs for being much more clued than the clueless masses, let's admit that the world--and the technology we use--is insanely more complicated now than it was just a few decades ago.

When I grew up we still had rotary phones (well, we also had push button ones, but rotary dials were still around). If you asked me how a telephone worked I could tell you the basics: dialing the numbers sent electrical impulses that reached some kind of processing unit that made circuit connections to send the electrons to another specific number; and there was a thigamabob inside the handset that converted sound waves into electrical impulses that were then amplified and transmitted over phone lines and so on and on. I could also explain a refrigerator.

Now put a smartphone in front of a smart somebody and have them explain how it works. I bet you that even most engineers, unless they are electrical engineers, are going to have a hard time explaining its operations beyond first principles. Even if you assume that the level of basic education has stayed the same, some very common household items have now gotten much more complex, whereas others (like indoor plumbing) have been unchanged for a century.

« Last Edit: 11/28/2017 10:15 PM by Blackstar »

Offline whitelancer64

There are some chemtrail believers who would happily shoot down aircraft, and if they could get their hands on a surface-to-air missile, some of them would be a real danger.

Metabunk has a thread (44 pages long and counting) devoted to such threats being made.

https://www.metabunk.org/advocating-violence-against-chemtrail-planes-pilots-scientists-and-debunkers.t251/page-44
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Back the "flat earther" I ran into near MSFC. While I was talking to him, a local was listening in patiently for quite a while.

When he had had enough, getting the gist of things (and noticing I was going out of my way to be careful, respectful, and patient) ... he decided the guy was a menace on the whole, and took him to task for what he was doing.

I shut up and let them go at it (it did make me late). The local wasn't much better educated given how he talked, but he'd learned how to deal with nonsense and carefully used much I'd said to keep the flat earther on his ear (from time to time they'd shoot something my way and I'd nod or shake head). This local wasn't bad at sorting things out at all.

He was the one who caused the flat earther to back off.
 

Online deruch

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The major problem with scientific denialism, whether it is in the form of Flat Earth nonsense, a belief that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, or that smoking cigarettes doesn't cause cancer (an oldie but goodie), etc. is that there are almost never any tangible and timely consequences to such lack of understanding.  It isn't like Flat Earthers are only allowed watch TV that isn't satellite relayed/broadcast, only have access to very limited weather forecasting, and get poor international phone calling.  People who refuse to accept the validity of radiometric dating proving the Earth is 14+ billion years old still get to buy and use smoke detectors which rely on Americium-241 decay (more or less the same physical process).  They can deny the science while still benefiting from it.  There's no cost.  With cigarettes or anti-vaccination, there may be harmful consequences but they are usually so separated in time that they can be ignored by the determined denier and more importantly there's no 1-to-1 cause and effect.  They aren't like holding a lead weight over my foot and letting go, which is apparently the level of evidence that these people need. 


Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
« Last Edit: 11/29/2017 11:47 AM by deruch »
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline the_other_Doug

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When I grew up we still had rotary phones (well, we also had push button ones, but rotary dials were still around).

When I grew up, while in my home town we had rotary phones (push-button phones didn't come along in any vast numbers until I was in my early teens), my grandmother lived in a much smaller town.  Her phone looked exactly like ours at home, except it had no dial -- when you picked it up, there was a short (or sometimes long) delay, and then a voice asked "Number, please?"  I also trained myself not to answer my grandmother's phone, because it was on a party line, and only one combination of shorts-and-longs in the ring was for her phone.

I grew up with that much less of a complicated world than what I live in now, and yet, I am not an angry, overwhelmed old man screaming at the appliances and taking potshots at the Google Street View trucks as they pass, just because they represent a world too complex for me to understand in fine detail.  Which is why I say, this anti-science bias that is emerging it is not only because the world *has* become more complex, it is also because some people are willing to put in the effort to understand the complexities enough to have a basic feel for how things work, and some people just get pushed farther and farther into dysfunction.

It all has to do with your personal response to such things.  And whether or not your basic level of dysfunction includes the concept that you can stand in the middle of the river and effectively push back it...
« Last Edit: 11/29/2017 04:29 PM by the_other_Doug »
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Online Blackstar

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When I grew up, while in my home town we had rotary phones (push-button phones didn't come along in any vast numbers until I was in my early teens), my grandmother lived in a much smaller town.  Her phone looked exactly like ours at home, except it had no dial -- when you picked it up, there was a short (or sometimes long) delay, and then a voice asked "Number, please?"  I also trained myself not to answer my grandmother's phone, because it was on a party line, and only one combination of shorts-and-longs in the ring was for her phone.

I remember reading that the point of the rotary dial was to slow down the dialing so that it could actually go through. In other words, you could have a push button phone early on, but when you pressed "543" rapidly, the 5 had not completed going through before the 4 started, and so on. So the dial slowed the time between digits going out that the routing system on the other end could handle it.

Your grandmother's phone with an operator assisting was a way of slowing this down even more, but having a human do it all on the other end.

But there are lots of things that used to be simpler than they are now, and they have moved beyond understanding for people with basic levels of education.

Also, lots of people are just not intellectually capable (either smarts or interest) to understand a lot of technology.

Offline Svetoslav

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I still think that the most defining factor according to which one would believe in woos remains his philosophical/religious/political predispositions.

About ten years ago I couldn't grasp the reality of climate change, because of my predisposition of being on more conservative positions.

All of the flat earthers I know are evangelical fundamentalists. Their underlying position is that the Earth is special, and the human race is the pinnacle of the creation. They refuse to accept a reality in which our Earth is just a planet orbiting the Sun, which is the star in the periphery of the galaxy. In a sense, they clinge to a hardcore version of the anthropic principle.

It has been suggested that in order to fight pseudoscience, you mustn't challenge people's underlying predispositions. If you do that, the person would stop listening to you. Rather, you need to convince the person that the scientific view is not necessarily incompatible.

For example: a climate change denier would think that in order to stop climate change certain companies need to be surpressed with taxes and regulation. Rather than convincing him that this would be the right thing to do, it would be wiser to convince him that by opening companies that battle climate change, you're opening new job opportunities. Thus the person will be more willing to listen to you.

Same goes with evolution. Due to the efforts of Francis Collins and the Biologos foundation which reconciles religion with modern science, people have become more accepting to the theory of evolution.

Offline Archibald

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It is just like the QWERTY keyboard as a relic of a long past, when the letters were set appart so that the typers did not broke the typewritters by writting too fast.

Offline su27k

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My own theory on the matter, developed over years of doing phone support for internet connectivity issues, is that people get more and more uncomfortable as the scope and breadth of the things they absolutely depend on for survival grow farther and farther outside of their ability to comprehend.

In internet support, ...

But Luddites exist before the internet, so this is not a new phenomena. I would suggest the current anti-science movement can be traced back at least to the 1970s, starting with Silent Spring and the anti-nuclear movement. So I don't think this has anything to do with the fast pace of computer technology or education, it's something else.

Offline daveklingler

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I guess these folks wouldn't trust EPIC. 

https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/

Easier than launching one's own satellite.

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