Author Topic: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed  (Read 161386 times)

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #180 on: 09/19/2017 07:02 pm »
Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.
"All" the connectors? If you take a good hard look at the Boeing suit you will notice exactly two connectors. One for air and one for comms. The latter is, from most views, pretty much hidden behind the left arm.
What you failed to notice is that the Boeing suit is a fine example of functionality-over-looks. The SpaceX suit is different. It quite literally has looks-over-functionality in the sense that the cool-looking exterior is a shell over the actual pressure-suit. The connectors for the SpaceX suit are mounted on the actual pressure suit and are covered by a flap that is part of the exterior shell. You don't design a slick looking exterior with fancy helmet-to-match and than have that whole picture ruined by two connectors sticking out.
Stop thinking the NASA/Boeing way and start thinking the Elon way.

Can I ask where you got the information that this is an outer shell over the pressure suit? It makes no sense to add a separate outer layer to a launch and entry suit - that would just complicate and extend the length of time required for ingress. Similarly, having to suit up and hook up to life support in an emergency (such as cabin depressurization) would be complicated by having to search for the umbilical connectors under a flap or within a pocket. To say nothing of the fact that the photos are of a fairly tight-fitting suit, and there is no indication of bumps or lumps under the surface showing connectors, body seal closures, wrist disconnects, helmet disconnect, etc.

Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

Offline AncientU

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #181 on: 09/19/2017 07:28 pm »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Offline RonM

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #182 on: 09/19/2017 07:47 pm »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.

The problem with wireless communications will be the power supply. Batteries would work, but flight suits usually don't have their own power.

If adding batteries isn't a problem, you still want a wired connection if the wireless or batteries fail. Space is hard, so backup systems are needed.

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #183 on: 09/19/2017 07:55 pm »
Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

I kind of get this.

However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, and Jason Tenenbaum.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 08:02 pm by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline AncientU

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #184 on: 09/19/2017 08:00 pm »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.

The problem with wireless communications will be the power supply. Batteries would work, but flight suits usually don't have their own power.

If adding batteries isn't a problem, you still want a wired connection if the wireless or batteries fail. Space is hard, so backup systems are needed.

Wired connections have as many failure modes as wireless... maybe more. 
Flight suits 'usually' ... need not apply.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #185 on: 09/19/2017 08:07 pm »
Maybe we should wait for some information about how the SpaceX suit actually works (and even see a picture of the whole thing) before we get too involved with deciding whether or not it's a good design.

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #186 on: 09/19/2017 08:20 pm »
Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

I kind of get this.

However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman,Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.


No question that the suit has "passed NASA acceptance milestones" (which could include early design reviews), but do we in fact know that either the SpaceX or Boeing suits have been accepted by NASA as acceptable for flight operations? (In other words, finished and ready for flight rather than okay as a work in progress?)

Offline mme

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #187 on: 09/19/2017 09:02 pm »
... (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) ...
However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.
Thanks for that video. Ms McCormick strikes me as:
1. Incredibly intelligent and well versed in the issues of space suit design.
2. Definitely not just "some intern."
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 10:10 pm by gongora »
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Offline intrepidpursuit

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #188 on: 09/19/2017 09:09 pm »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.

The problem with wireless communications will be the power supply. Batteries would work, but flight suits usually don't have their own power.

If adding batteries isn't a problem, you still want a wired connection if the wireless or batteries fail. Space is hard, so backup systems are needed.

Wired connections have as many failure modes as wireless... maybe more. 
Flight suits 'usually' ... need not apply.

Wireless has more failure modes than wired. It just does. A wireless connection has everything a wired connection has, but then add antennas, independant power and additional protocols on top of it.

I can't imagine that a life safety system would be completely wireless and wired is an option. There might be some wireless going on, but there is a wired backup and wired power almost definitely.

I don't build space systems, but I design communications systems and sometimes in life safety situations and it takes way more effort and produces more failure modes to use wireless over wired in every application I've ever heard of.

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #189 on: 09/19/2017 09:53 pm »
Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

I kind of get this.

However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman,Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.


No question that the suit has "passed NASA acceptance milestones" (which could include early design reviews), but do we in fact know that either the SpaceX or Boeing suits have been accepted by NASA as acceptable for flight operations? (In other words, finished and ready for flight rather than okay as a work in progress?)

According to the SpaceX CCtCAP Milestones thread, Space Suit Qualification Testing was completed in November 2016. See point 12 in the linked post to see the requirements for acceptance.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 09:55 pm by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #190 on: 09/19/2017 10:05 pm »
... (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) ...
However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.
Thanks for that video. Ms McCormick strikes me as:
1. Incredibly intelligent and well versed in the issues of space suit design.
2. Definitely not just "some intern."

At the time of the video she was with Orbital Outfitters, but she is now Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 10:11 pm by gongora »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #191 on: 09/20/2017 06:31 am »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.
A few notes:
- The current suit won't be used on ITS(y).
- Flight up-and-down to ISS on Crew Dragon requires wearing of the pressure suit ONLY during ascent and descent. During those phases the crew is strapped in their seats and hooked up to ECLSS and comms via hardlines. Thus: no real need for wireless comms capability for this particular version of the flight suit.

I agree with you that suits for EVA operations (surface-bound or otherwise) will have wireless comms. But the current suit is for IVA only, mostly seated.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #192 on: 09/20/2017 06:59 am »
Can I ask where you got the information that this is an outer shell over the pressure suit? It makes no sense to add a separate outer layer to a launch and entry suit - that would just complicate and extend the length of time required for ingress. Similarly, having to suit up and hook up to life support in an emergency (such as cabin depressurization) would be complicated by having to search for the umbilical connectors under a flap or within a pocket. To say nothing of the fact that the photos are of a fairly tight-fitting suit, and there is no indication of bumps or lumps under the surface showing connectors, body seal closures, wrist disconnects, helmet disconnect, etc.

NASA set specific requirements with regards to ECLSS and the pressurized flight-suit. Both CCP providers, Boeing and SpaceX, will have to meet those requirements to get certified.
But, until now pressure-suits were all-functional. No attention to esthetics whatsoever. That has already changed with the Boeing Blue suit. Boeing has gone to some lengths to make their Blue suit look "great" as well as meeting NASA's requirements. So, functionality AND esthetics. And I have to give them credit: the Boeing Blue suit looks a helluvalot better than say the Soyuz Sokol suit.
SpaceX has taken this approach MUCH further. The visible exterior of their IVA suit is NOT the outside of the pressure-suit. It is an extra layer over the actual pressure-bearing suit, purely for esthetics. The helmet is a great example of functionality AND esthetics.
So yes, the SpaceX suit is designed to meet all the requirements that NASA has set for CCP pressure suits, as well as looking as something from a SF movie.

With regards to donning the suit during an emergency: both suits (Boeing and SpaceX) have to meet requirements set by NASA. Why do you think Elon commented that it was incredibly hard to make a functioning pressure suit that looks "bad-ass" at the same time.
Note: despite the SpaceX suit having an exterior shell for esthetics it is worth noting that this exterior shell is a fixed part of the complete suit. It is not donned separately.

With regards to disconnects: have you taken a good look at the Boeing suit? That is all zippered, except for the gloves. Those have traditional wrist disconnects. And it is rather tight-fitting as well when depressurized, and not "bulky" at all when pressurized: Stop thinking Apollo and ACES, start thinking 21st century.
You will also note that the connectors don't actually stick out of the Boeing Blue suit. The only thing that does stick out is the pressure-control-valve assembly. Well, the SpaceX suit is much the same. Connectors are mounted almost flush on the pressure-bearing shell of the suit with the entry into the suit zippered.
And yes, NASA requirements for donning the pressure suits in an emergency do allow time for opening a velcro flap and then sticking in the connectors.

Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".)
Here's a little fact from history: When ILC was awarded the contract to construct the Apollo space suits in the 1960's it had exactly ZERO experience in constructing space suits.
Assuming that a bunch of interns at SpaceX are any less capable than ILC back then is ludicrous.
« Last Edit: 09/20/2017 08:05 pm by woods170 »

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #193 on: 09/20/2017 08:21 am »

If there were no requirements, then perhaps there will be several colors to choose from. Perhaps the color could designate rank or a particular MOS.
That said, I'd suggest avoiding the red one.

LL&P
Ranks? Seriously?

I think someone missed the joke. See the last line and signature. Note, as well, the forum name of the poster you're quoting. That might help.

According to The Next Generation, gold shirts are even more hazardous to health since main characters can get killed off.

Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.
"All" the connectors? If you take a good hard look at the Boeing suit you will notice exactly two connectors. One for air and one for comms. The latter is, from most views, pretty much hidden behind the left arm.
What you failed to notice is that the Boeing suit is a fine example of functionality-over-looks. The SpaceX suit is different. It quite literally has looks-over-functionality in the sense that the cool-looking exterior is a shell over the actual pressure-suit. The connectors for the SpaceX suit are mounted on the actual pressure suit and are covered by a flap that is part of the exterior shell. You don't design a slick looking exterior with fancy helmet-to-match and than have that whole picture ruined by two connectors sticking out.
Stop thinking the NASA/Boeing way and start thinking the Elon way.

Pretty much this. The interior of the Dragon 2 is all touch-screens and Iron Man cool. I was skeptical about touch screens but then when you think about it, one of the advantages of touch screens and IVA gloves is that you wouldn't need to jam a pressurised glove finger into a switch in an emergency.

The suits are also part of the advertising for the company, and has a halo effect that goes beyond SpaceX: Tesla and the other companies indirectly benefit from SpaceX's success since they are connected through Elon Musk.

There's also probably a zillion little things we don't notice about the suit but that really matter to the people w; like the Sokol gets clammy like the inside of a rubber glove after being worn for a few hours. Improved nappy. etc.

Offline TripD

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #194 on: 09/23/2017 06:16 am »
Maybe we should wait .......

Heh.... waiting is for flatlanders.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #195 on: 09/24/2017 01:37 am »
... (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) ...
However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.
Thanks for that video. Ms McCormick strikes me as:
1. Incredibly intelligent and well versed in the issues of space suit design.
2. Definitely not just "some intern."

At the time of the video she was with Orbital Outfitters, but she is now Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.
Funny how that works... 🤔
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #196 on: 09/24/2017 11:07 am »

At the time of the video she was with Orbital Outfitters, but she is now Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.

Seems she got promoted to Sr. Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.
« Last Edit: 09/24/2017 11:07 am by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #197 on: 09/27/2017 07:37 pm »
I have to just point out that, if the model who wore the SpaceX suit during the featured photo shoot really did have to open the visor every few minutes just to breathe, and was overheating at a very fast rate, then one of the following two scenarios had to be the fact of it:

1 -- This was the actual SpaceX pressure suit, but was not connected to any air or cooling support (which may be the same thing, as this is just a launch-and-entry type of suit and doesn't need aggressive water cooling).  If so, the crew will need to get their visors open, and get out of the suits pretty fast, once they disconnect them from the suit circuit inside the Dragon, or else they'll get pretty hot and sweaty pretty quickly, and will breathe down the air inside the suits in a matter of minutes.

2 -- This was just the same original costume-designer suit, not a pressure suit of any kind -- i.e., the same one that was presented a good while back.

I'd like to believe it was scenario 1, but this thing doesn't look like there are any ports anywhere for air or cooling purposes.  Maybe they are very cleverly covered over when not connected -- but still, Occam would suggest this was just a photo shoot with the original, non-pressure, this-is-your-design-now-make-it-into-a-real-pressure-suit design piece.

I'm not in any way sure we have ever seen anything except that original design piece that was generated by that Hollywood costume designer... though I imagine the real suit will strongly resemble it.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline virnin

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #198 on: 02/09/2018 01:43 am »
Elon was pretty clear that Starman is wearing a test article suit in the roadster.  Of couse we can't see the whole thing but what is visible looks, to me, just like the photoshoot.

Offline aero

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #199 on: 02/09/2018 04:29 am »
I'm wondering if the suit is fully pressurized, partially or only a few millibars. Starman was posed and buckled in, but what kept his hand on the wheel and elbow resting on the door? There is quite a lot of vibration and shaking during a launch as I understand it and internal suit pressure would tend to straighten the joints once out of the atmosphere, I think. Do you suppose that the mannikin had its joints locked in place? Or were there hidden attachments to the steering wheel and door? (superglue)

I think it would be hard to pump down the inside suit pressure to millibars before encapsulation and launch, but not impossible I guess.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 04:31 am by aero »
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