Author Topic: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed  (Read 41762 times)

Offline Kang54

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SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« on: 08/23/2017 08:06 AM »
[Moderator note: Split this from the SpaceX Suit Kremlinology Thread]

The first image of the suit has just been posted: https://www.instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/
Quote
elonmusk: First picture of SpaceX spacesuit. More in days to follow. Worth noting that this actually works (not a mockup). Already tested to double vacuum pressure. Was incredibly hard to balance esthetics and function. Easy to do either separately.

It's awesome!
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 01:27 PM by gongora »

Offline jpo234

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #1 on: 08/23/2017 08:28 AM »
What is "double vacuum pressure"?
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 08:29 AM by jpo234 »

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #2 on: 08/23/2017 08:38 AM »
Quote
What is "double vacuum pressure"?

They likely pressurised the flightsuit at 2 bars and put it in a vacuum chamber.

Offline vanoord

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #3 on: 08/23/2017 08:53 AM »
Not at all dissimilar to the suits seen in this SpaceX video -

« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 02:35 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline First Mate Rummey

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #4 on: 08/23/2017 08:54 AM »
The first image of the suit has just been posted: https://www.instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/

It's awesome!

Cool! It's similar to the ones posted in the past. Just for reference:


Offline woods170

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #5 on: 08/23/2017 09:30 AM »
The first image of the suit has just been posted: https://www.instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/

It's awesome!

Cool!
Agreed. The SpaceX suit makes the Boeing Starliner suit look silly.

Offline jpo234

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #6 on: 08/23/2017 09:46 AM »


The first image of the suit has just been posted: https://www.instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/

It's awesome!

Cool!
Agreed. The SpaceX suit makes the Boeing Starliner suit look silly.

Wait for the baggy behind with room for the nappies.


Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #7 on: 08/23/2017 09:48 AM »
For convenience here’s Elon’s comment with the photo:

Quote
elonmusk First picture of SpaceX spacesuit. More in days to follow. Worth noting that this actually works (not a mockup). Already tested to double vacuum pressure. Was incredibly hard to balance esthetics [sic] and function. Easy to do either separately.
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 09:55 AM by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #8 on: 08/23/2017 09:52 AM »
Wait for the baggy behind with room for the nappies.

Modern adult nappies are almost invisible under normal street clothing.

Edit: I still want to see a few full body pictures from different angles.
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 09:52 AM by guckyfan »

Offline Johnnyhinbos

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #9 on: 08/23/2017 10:08 AM »
Where are the goesintos and the comesoutas ?
John Hanzl. Author, action / adventure www.johnhanzl.com

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #10 on: 08/23/2017 11:32 AM »
Quote
A dirty secret ... When I toured the SpaceX factory in Hawthorne in 2014, I saw these under development. Pretty much the color scheme I saw.

https://twitter.com/spacekscblog/status/900316492096516096

Offline woods170

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Re: Re: SpaceX Suit Kremlinology
« Reply #11 on: 08/23/2017 01:06 PM »
Quote
A dirty secret ... When I toured the SpaceX factory in Hawthorne in 2014, I saw these under development. Pretty much the color scheme I saw.

https://twitter.com/spacekscblog/status/900316492096516096
In hindsight it is not very surprising that the outside still looks very much like what was leaked to Instagram two years ago. The cool-looking outside was designed first and then a functional pressure suit was retro-engineered to fit inside the outside. So, SpaceX did not do it the hard way. The did it the ludicrously hard way. No wonder it took them so long (first public reveal of the suit was supposed to be early 2016). This must have been one ridiculously steep learning-curve.
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 01:10 PM by woods170 »

Offline Giovanni DS

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #12 on: 08/23/2017 01:36 PM »
Now they just need to produce those in PowerRangers-like colors and the new space race is won.

Offline Star One

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SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #13 on: 08/23/2017 01:36 PM »
The head piece looks quite a bit like the modern Star Trek Discovery spacesuits.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/star-trek-discovery-exhibit-reveals-props-costumes-comic-con-1023530
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 01:37 PM by Star One »

Offline TaurusLittrow

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #14 on: 08/23/2017 01:46 PM »
Presumably, the SpaceX suit as shown is unpressurized. It may be less "form fitting" when pressurized. Aesthetically, the exterior looks "too cool for school" but, remember this is exclusively an IVA suit not unlike, in function, the modified Navy pressure suit worn by the Mercury astronauts, which was relatively form-fitting. The crew of Gemini 7 also wore an IVA suit that was pretty futuristic looking.   

Online Chris Bergin

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #15 on: 08/23/2017 02:46 PM »
They really did stick to the design we saw in L2 in 2015.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/01/starliner-space-suit-boeing-blue-revealed/


Offline JasonAW3

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #16 on: 08/23/2017 02:53 PM »
They really did stick to the design we saw in L2 in 2015.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/01/starliner-space-suit-boeing-blue-revealed/



      This suit looks like it is composed of an inner pressure suit with an outer insulation/protective set of garments.  (Jacket, pants, overshoes, etc.)

      This would actually kind of makes sense, as the inner pressure envelope can be customized to the individual, like a mechanical counter pressure suit, while the outer layers can be changed out or augmented by changing out, or adding additional layers of protection as needed.
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 02:53 PM by Chris Bergin »
My God!  It's full of universes!

Online docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #17 on: 08/23/2017 03:06 PM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman ✔ @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
DM

Offline raketa

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #18 on: 08/23/2017 03:36 PM »
Presumably, the SpaceX suit as shown is unpressurized. It may be less "form fitting" when pressurized. Aesthetically, the exterior looks "too cool for school" but, remember this is exclusively an IVA suit not unlike, in function, the modified Navy pressure suit worn by the Mercury astronauts, which was relatively form-fitting. The crew of Gemini 7 also wore an IVA suit that was pretty futuristic looking.
I think this is how pressurized Spacex suit will look. Header part will be pressurized but rest of body using just counter pressure.

Offline Norm38

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #19 on: 08/23/2017 03:42 PM »
Now they just need to produce those in PowerRangers-like colors and the new space race is won.

And put them in a Daft Punk video.

Offline qralt

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #20 on: 08/23/2017 03:43 PM »
Picture is mirrored?  Flag is reversed.

Offline Ictogan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #21 on: 08/23/2017 03:53 PM »
Picture is mirrored?  Flag is reversed.
No, it's probably intentional that way. The stars on the US flag are supposed to always face forward. For this reason you also see this reversed flags on the right shoulders of uniforms and even on the right side of the space shuttle.

Offline meberbs

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #22 on: 08/23/2017 03:53 PM »
Picture is mirrored?  Flag is reversed.
The flag is not reversed. Flags on the sides moving vehicles (including people) are printed as if blowing in the wind while moving forward. Check out pictures of U.S. military uniforms.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #23 on: 08/23/2017 03:56 PM »
Now they just need to produce those in PowerRangers-like colors and the new space race is won.

Nah. Should be in scarlet & gold just like the Iron Man stature at the Hawthorne lobby. Why the heck would you imitated the look of the campy Power Rangers :P instead of the Super Heroic look of Tony Stark.  ;)

Offline whitelancer64

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #24 on: 08/23/2017 04:07 PM »
Picture is mirrored?  Flag is reversed.

No, that is the correct way to have a flag on the right shoulder. The star field always faces forward. This gives the effect of the flag "flying in the breeze" as the wearer moves forward.

US military uniforms often have the flag on the right shoulder in the same orientation.
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Offline ZachS09

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #25 on: 08/23/2017 04:14 PM »
I got to admit that the new SpaceX suit reminds me of the Japanese robot ASIMO.
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Offline JAFO

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #26 on: 08/23/2017 04:14 PM »
Picture is mirrored?  Flag is reversed.

No, that is the correct way to have a flag on the right shoulder. The star field always faces forward. This gives the effect of the flag "flying in the breeze" as the wearer moves forward.

US military uniforms often have the flag on the right shoulder in the same orientation.

Yup, glad they got that right. Boy/Cub Scout uniform drives me up the wall. "These colors don't run!"
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Offline Ludus

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #27 on: 08/23/2017 04:42 PM »
Compared to the competition.

Offline TaurusLittrow

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #28 on: 08/23/2017 04:57 PM »
Presumably, the SpaceX suit as shown is unpressurized. It may be less "form fitting" when pressurized. Aesthetically, the exterior looks "too cool for school" but, remember this is exclusively an IVA suit not unlike, in function, the modified Navy pressure suit worn by the Mercury astronauts, which was relatively form-fitting. The crew of Gemini 7 also wore an IVA suit that was pretty futuristic looking.
I think this is how pressurized Spacex suit will look. Header part will be pressurized but rest of body using just counter pressure.

Yes, it might use counter pressure, but one of the challenges with a "biosuit-type" design is integrating a gas-pressurized helmet. Interesting to get clarification from SpaceX.

Offline meberbs

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #29 on: 08/23/2017 05:11 PM »
Picture is mirrored?  Flag is reversed.

No, that is the correct way to have a flag on the right shoulder. The star field always faces forward. This gives the effect of the flag "flying in the breeze" as the wearer moves forward.

US military uniforms often have the flag on the right shoulder in the same orientation.

Yup, glad they got that right. Boy/Cub Scout uniform drives me up the wall. "These colors don't run!"
I actually went to check my old scout uniform before my original post just to make sure I correctly remembered that it was wrong.

Here is an article with an official explanation of why.

While they have a point that it isn't explicit in the flag code, the reversed flag on the right side of vehicles is standard, and most consistent with the "canton in the most honored/prominent position" principle. Therefore I disagree with their conclusion, and agree with SpaceX's design.

Also, after all of the comments Musk has made about the backside, I am looking forward to soon seeing some shots of their suit from behind, especially inflated. really need to see more of the suit before I can judge it. (I would normally say it is awesome as it is, but Musk has raised the standards on himself)

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #30 on: 08/23/2017 06:33 PM »
Presumably, the SpaceX suit as shown is unpressurized. It may be less "form fitting" when pressurized. Aesthetically, the exterior looks "too cool for school" but, remember this is exclusively an IVA suit not unlike, in function, the modified Navy pressure suit worn by the Mercury astronauts, which was relatively form-fitting. The crew of Gemini 7 also wore an IVA suit that was pretty futuristic looking.
I think this is how pressurized Spacex suit will look. Header part will be pressurized but rest of body using just counter pressure.

Yes, it might use counter pressure, but one of the challenges with a "biosuit-type" design is integrating a gas-pressurized helmet. Interesting to get clarification from SpaceX.

No. It is NOT a mechanical counter-pressure suit. Not only does the technology to make a _operational_ MCP suit not exist, but the worst possible use of an MCP suit (which is only wearable when pressurized) would be as a launch & entry suit which nominally is NEVER pressurized beyond vent pressure. We will have to wait until (and if) Elon ever releases images of the suit when pressurized to make sweeping generalizations on how far superior it is to all prior pressure suits (/snark).

Offline punder

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #31 on: 08/23/2017 06:49 PM »
Is that Elon inside?   :D

Note that Elon Musk "is an engineer at SpaceX."

Offline laszlo

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #32 on: 08/23/2017 06:50 PM »
Does the helmet have the internal spotlighting to illuminate the movie star's face (while incidentally blinding the movie star)?

It's hard to take anything that looks so much like a movie prop seriously. I guess that will come after a few flights.


Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #33 on: 08/23/2017 06:58 PM »
Compared to the competition.
What was considered "cool" back in January of this year is now looking antiquated.

Offline eeergo

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #34 on: 08/23/2017 07:00 PM »

Is that Elon inside?   :D


Note that Elon Musk "is an engineer at SpaceX."


Sure doesn't look like him.
-DaviD-

Offline meberbs

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #35 on: 08/23/2017 07:01 PM »
Does the helmet have the internal spotlighting to illuminate the movie star's face (while incidentally blinding the movie star)?

It's hard to take anything that looks so much like a movie prop seriously. I guess that will come after a few flights.
You know it was literally designed by a movie costume designer right?  ;D

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #36 on: 08/23/2017 07:02 PM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman ✔ @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #37 on: 08/23/2017 07:31 PM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman ✔ @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

Not to interrupt the fawning, but how does that comment disqualify anything?

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #38 on: 08/23/2017 08:12 PM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman <span class="emoji-outer emoji-sizer"><span class="emoji-inner" style="background: url(chrome-extension://immhpnclomdloikkpcefncmfgjbkojmh/emoji-data/sheet_apple_64.png);background-position:6.25% 29.166666666666668%;background-size:4900%" data-codepoints="2714"></span></span> @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

Garrett Reitman works for Spacex
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 09:02 PM by Chris Bergin »

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #39 on: 08/23/2017 08:24 PM »
Further clarification on who is wearing the spacesuit:

Quote
The spacesuit of the future has arrived! This is our spacesuit manager wearing a working flight suit in Dragon.

instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/

https://twitter.com/rocketjoy/status/900378957840654336

Offline Star One

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #40 on: 08/23/2017 08:24 PM »
I bet the astronaut would have to add a further heavy suit over the top to do EVA work?

Offline uhuznaa

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #41 on: 08/23/2017 08:32 PM »
Compared to the competition.

OK, but THIS suit does look pressurized.

Still, one major difference seems to be the helmet. Basically all IVA suit helmets up to now were fixed to the suit. The SpaceX helmet seems to be conforming to the head (like a motorcycle helmet), connected to the suit with a soft neck "tunnel". This means as long as the suit isn't pressurized you can move around your head (with the helmet) freely, look around and up and down, even nod and shake your head. You also are wearing a full, padded crash helmet.

This is an altogether good thing compared to all fixed hard or soft helmets where you can move around your head only INSIDE the helmet and have to try and look through the limited, unmoving visor in the front. I think the first Mercury spacesuit was a bit similar (but still with a neck ring with the helmet only able to rotate on it, not move up and down).

Online AncientU

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #42 on: 08/23/2017 08:35 PM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman <span class="emoji-outer emoji-sizer"><span class="emoji-inner" style="background: url(chrome-extension://immhpnclomdloikkpcefncmfgjbkojmh/emoji-data/sheet_apple_64.png);background-position:6.25% 29.166666666666668%;background-size:4900%" data-codepoints="2714"></span></span> @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

Garrett Reitman works for Spacex

Yah, that disqualifies him from being objective... just like anyone working for NASA cannot be about NASA hardware.
« Last Edit: 08/23/2017 09:02 PM by Chris Bergin »
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #43 on: 08/23/2017 08:45 PM »


Compared to the competition.

OK, but THIS suit does look pressurized.

Still, one major difference seems to be the helmet. Basically all IVA suit helmets up to now were fixed to the suit. The SpaceX helmet seems to be conforming to the head (like a motorcycle helmet), connected to the suit with a soft neck "tunnel". This means as long as the suit isn't pressurized you can move around your head (with the helmet) freely, look around and up and down, even nod and shake your head. You also are wearing a full, padded crash helmet.

This is an altogether good thing compared to all fixed hard or soft helmets where you can move around your head only INSIDE the helmet and have to try and look through the limited, unmoving visor in the front. I think the first Mercury spacesuit was a bit similar (but still with a neck ring with the helmet only able to rotate on it, not move up and down).

What does pressurized mean? Obviously the wearer can breathe, so there is air inside.

I think the picture shows the nominal state, when the pressure inside and outside of the suit are equal.

The suit will surely become more bulky and stiff in a vacuum.

Offline geza

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #44 on: 08/23/2017 08:47 PM »
Eagerly waiting for pics on Martian suit...

Offline uhuznaa

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #45 on: 08/23/2017 08:55 PM »


Compared to the competition.

OK, but THIS suit does look pressurized.

Still, one major difference seems to be the helmet. Basically all IVA suit helmets up to now were fixed to the suit. The SpaceX helmet seems to be conforming to the head (like a motorcycle helmet), connected to the suit with a soft neck "tunnel". This means as long as the suit isn't pressurized you can move around your head (with the helmet) freely, look around and up and down, even nod and shake your head. You also are wearing a full, padded crash helmet.

This is an altogether good thing compared to all fixed hard or soft helmets where you can move around your head only INSIDE the helmet and have to try and look through the limited, unmoving visor in the front. I think the first Mercury spacesuit was a bit similar (but still with a neck ring with the helmet only able to rotate on it, not move up and down).

What does pressurized mean? Obviously the wearer can breathe, so there is air inside.

I think the picture shows the nominal state, when the pressure inside and outside of the suit are equal.

The suit will surely become more bulky and stiff in a vacuum.

I was talking about the (blue) Boeing suit and pressurized means the pressure inside is higher than the pressure outside.

I agree that for an emergency suit the nominal state is the pressure inside being equal (or only slightly higher) to the pressure outside, but the Boeing suit definitely looks expanded while the SpaceX suit does not.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #46 on: 08/23/2017 08:56 PM »
Wonder how SpaceX keep the helmet visor from misting over with their spacesuit.

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #47 on: 08/23/2017 09:06 PM »



What does pressurized mean? Obviously the wearer can breathe, so there is air inside.

I think the picture shows the nominal state, when the pressure inside and outside of the suit are equal.

The suit will surely become more bulky and stiff in a vacuum.

I was talking about the (blue) Boeing suit and pressurized means the pressure inside is higher than the pressure outside.

I agree that for an emergency suit the nominal state is the pressure inside being equal (or only slightly higher) to the pressure outside, but the Boeing suit definitely looks expanded while the SpaceX suit does not.

Only the torso of the Boeing suit has this expanded look. Arms and legs look loose (e.g. wrinkled).

I can only go by the look, but I think there is some kind of stiff but not rigid armor (?) around the torso that gives this expanded impression.

Offline BobHk

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #48 on: 08/23/2017 09:06 PM »
Wonder how SpaceX keep the helmet visor from misting over with their spacesuit.

There is Anti-fog...

Offline tdperk

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #49 on: 08/23/2017 09:13 PM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman <span class="emoji-outer emoji-sizer"><span class="emoji-inner" style="background: url(chrome-extension://immhpnclomdloikkpcefncmfgjbkojmh/emoji-data/sheet_apple_64.png);background-position:6.25% 29.166666666666668%;background-size:4900%" data-codepoints="2714"></span></span> @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

Garrett Reitman works for Spacex

Yah, that disqualifies him from being objective... just like anyone working for NASA cannot be about NASA hardware.

Also NASA procedures, engineering approach...

Offline uhuznaa

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #50 on: 08/23/2017 09:22 PM »
Wonder how SpaceX keep the helmet visor from misting over with their spacesuit.

There is Anti-fog...

The best way would be to stream the air pumped through the suit over the visor first to carry any moisture away. Good motorcycle helmets have some inlets around there to do that. Anti-fog basically is dish washing liquid to lower the surface tension of the condensing water so it doesn't form small droplets and a sheet of clear water instead, but you still get water gathering there.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #51 on: 08/23/2017 09:30 PM »
Wonder how SpaceX keep the helmet visor from misting over with their spacesuit.

There is Anti-fog...

The best way would be to stream the air pumped through the suit over the visor first to carry any moisture away.

They have to do that anyway or the wearer will suffocate on his/her own exhalations. No convection as such in micro-g. ;)

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #52 on: 08/24/2017 06:27 AM »
Further clarification on who is wearing the spacesuit:

Quote
The spacesuit of the future has arrived! This is our spacesuit manager wearing a working flight suit in Dragon.

instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/
https://twitter.com/rocketjoy/status/900378957840654336

Then inside the suit on the first picture should be Jason Tenenbaum.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-tenenbaum-7859278/

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #53 on: 08/24/2017 06:40 AM »
I bet the astronaut would have to add a further heavy suit over the top to do EVA work?
The current suit is an IVA suit. For CCP there are no requirements for an EVA suit. SpaceX has no need for EVA suits until they actually go to Mars.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #54 on: 08/24/2017 06:42 AM »
Wonder how SpaceX keep the helmet visor from misting over with their spacesuit.
Much the same way as Boeing/David Clark do with theirs: by circulating conditioned air.
« Last Edit: 08/24/2017 06:50 AM by woods170 »

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #55 on: 08/24/2017 06:46 AM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman ✔ @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

Not to interrupt the fawning, but how does that comment disqualify anything?
The IVA suit for Orion is a slightly modified version of the shuttle ACES suit. Given that one of the former users of the shuttle ACES suit now qualifies the SpaceX IVA suit as "much better" than the shuttle ACES suit....
I think you are smart enough to do the rest of the logical reasoning.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #56 on: 08/24/2017 06:49 AM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman <span class="emoji-outer emoji-sizer"><span class="emoji-inner" style="background: url(chrome-extension://immhpnclomdloikkpcefncmfgjbkojmh/emoji-data/sheet_apple_64.png);background-position:6.25% 29.166666666666668%;background-size:4900%" data-codepoints="2714"></span></span> @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

Garrett Reitman works for Spacex
By that reasoning you can never be objective about Spacehab because you once worked with them.
« Last Edit: 08/24/2017 06:49 AM by woods170 »

Offline Ictogan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #57 on: 08/24/2017 08:19 AM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman ✔ @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113
Ouch. That's a punch in the face of the David Clark company, by one of their former users no less. Not to mention that it basically disqualifies the IVA suit for Orion.

Not to interrupt the fawning, but how does that comment disqualify anything?
The IVA suit for Orion is a slightly modified version of the shuttle ACES suit. Given that one of the former users of the shuttle ACES suit now qualifies the SpaceX IVA suit as "much better" than the shuttle ACES suit....
I think you are smart enough to do the rest of the logical reasoning.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disqualify
Definition of disqualify

    transitive verb

    1
    :  to deprive of the required qualities, properties, or conditions :  make unfit

    2
    :  to deprive of a power, right, or privilege

    3
    :  to make ineligible for a prize or for further competition because of violations of the rules

Clearly the first definition is the one to work with here and I don't see how SpaceX's suit being called better by SpaceX employee renders the IVA suit for Orion unfit. Just because there is something better doesn't mean it is unfit for what it is supposed to do.

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« Last Edit: 08/24/2017 09:51 AM by jpo234 »

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #59 on: 08/24/2017 12:34 PM »
Quote
Garrett Reisman ✔ @astro_g_dogg
This suit is much better than the one I wore in the Shuttle. Lots of great innovations. I wore one today for our post-splashdown safety test https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900363626841812992
10:55 AM - Aug 23, 2017 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/astro_g_dogg/status/900371010846810113

Today, GR is uniquely qualified to make the comparison -- no one else has worn both AFAIK.  In near future, at least two active NASA astros will wear these new suits; we will then see what they think.  (Unless we need to disqualify them because they work for NASA...)
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #60 on: 08/24/2017 12:36 PM »
IIRC, the EVA suits used on Apollo were just the standard pressure suits with the necessary add-ons (insulated boots, sun-shade visor and PLSS pack) to work outside the spacecraft. Could this suit be similarly modified with extra layers and equipment hung over it to make it an EVA suit of some kind?
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #61 on: 08/24/2017 12:46 PM »
IIRC, the EVA suits used on Apollo were just the standard pressure suits with the necessary add-ons (insulated boots, sun-shade visor and PLSS pack) to work outside the spacecraft. Could this suit be similarly modified with extra layers and equipment hung over it to make it an EVA suit of some kind?
Not quite.
The Apollo suits were set out as full-blown EVA suits that had a dual-purpose of having to serve as IVA suits as well. To serve this dual-purpose some parts were removable because they were only needed on the lunar surface or on deep-space EVA, such as the external hard-helmet with sun-shade visors, the PLSS package and the outer boots. But the suits still had all the insulation- and MMOD layers for lunar surface/EVA use, the dual set of connectors for both IVA and EVA ECLSS systems as well as the lunar gloves. Basically, the IVA suit used on Apollo was a partially undressed EVA suit.

The SpaceX suit however is a pure IVA suit. You don't easily turn that into an EVA suit.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #62 on: 08/24/2017 01:08 PM »
SpaceX's ITS video showed Mars EVA suits very similar to this suit.

I suspect this suit would almost work for very short EVAs on Mars, like the Gemini suits. But like the Gemini suits, probably very tiring to use for actual work. So expect SpaceX would use this suit to provide an experience base in suit design to help develop a true EVA suit.
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #63 on: 08/24/2017 03:05 PM »
Back in 2014 this site did an article on NASA looking at turning ACES into an EVA suit for the ARM mission and even tested the suits in the neutral buoyancy tank. They planned to use them for a duration of about 4 hours and from what I remembered it looked feasible. I believe it was planned to use an extra outer layer over the suit for that portion of the mission. Probably possible to do something similar with this suit. Looking forward to more pics of it.

The Boeing suit reminds me of teletubbies. 

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/12/nasa-evaluting-shuttle-aces-asteroid-eva/

Found the article.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #64 on: 08/24/2017 03:13 PM »

Yah, that disqualifies him from being objective... just like anyone working for NASA cannot be about NASA hardware.

Wrong, see my posts on SLS

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #65 on: 08/24/2017 03:16 PM »

By that reasoning you can never be objective about Spacehab because you once worked with them.

Reitman is a current Spacex employee and I am sure he is not going to post something negative while employed by them. I am very objective about Spacehab, I have bashed them as well as praised them.  But there weren't forums like this to post on while I was working there.
« Last Edit: 08/24/2017 03:21 PM by Jim »

Online Herb Schaltegger

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #66 on: 08/24/2017 03:17 PM »

Yah, that disqualifies him from being objective... just like anyone working for NASA cannot be about NASA hardware.

Wrong, see my posts on SLS

Yes, Jim but we're losing the thread ... This started off with someone suggesting Garret Reisman "disqualified" the suits from David Clark Company by his appraisals of the current SpaceX home-grown design, then suggestions he can't be objective because that's who he works for now ... blah blah blah. :)
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Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #67 on: 08/24/2017 05:01 PM »
Garrett might have bias. We all do. But as probably the only person to have worn both suits he has useful perspective... Saying that someone saying a particular suit is more, ahem, suited for one task isn't a punch in the face to the suit developers of the other suit, which had other tasks on its list too.

Herb's right. Let's ixnay further excursions or some posts may have to go EVA without a suit.
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Offline sanman

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #68 on: 08/24/2017 07:11 PM »
The SpaceX suit however is a pure IVA suit. You don't easily turn that into an EVA suit.

Well, even if it's just a flight suit, the SpaceX suit certainly seems to have a nice ergonomic design, which is more than can be said for the fatty space suits of the Apollo and Shuttle eras. Are you saying that space suits will never become more form-fitting and will always remain superfat? Surely ergonomics matters, and having a lighter and more form-fitting suit should at least be an ideal or goal. Why would anyone want things to stay fat and bulky, if technology can continue to come up with something better?

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #69 on: 08/24/2017 07:19 PM »

Well, even if it's just a flight suit, the SpaceX suit certainly seems to have a nice ergonomic design, which is more than can be said for the fatty space suits of the Apollo and Shuttle eras. Are you saying that space suits will never become more form-fitting and will always remain superfat? Surely ergonomics matters, and having a lighter and more form-fitting suit should at least be an ideal or goal. Why would anyone want things to stay fat and bulky, if technology can continue to come up with something better?

The Spacex suit is not inflated.  There is no technology update, just fancy marketing photos.

Offline RonM

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #70 on: 08/24/2017 07:25 PM »

Well, even if it's just a flight suit, the SpaceX suit certainly seems to have a nice ergonomic design, which is more than can be said for the fatty space suits of the Apollo and Shuttle eras. Are you saying that space suits will never become more form-fitting and will always remain superfat? Surely ergonomics matters, and having a lighter and more form-fitting suit should at least be an ideal or goal. Why would anyone want things to stay fat and bulky, if technology can continue to come up with something better?

The Spacex suit is not inflated.  There is no technology update, just fancy marketing photos.

That's right.

The pictures of SpaceX's flight suit show it unpressurized (notice the wrinkles). How form-fitting and ergonomic will it be when pressurized? The person wearing the suit will have work against the inflated suit, just like any flight suit design.

Part of the bulk of Apollo suits was the MMOD layers because they were EVA suits, not just IVA suits.

Form-fitting suits will require counterpressure suit technology, something still in development.

Online TrevorMonty

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #71 on: 08/24/2017 07:33 PM »
For space tourists the only thing left after flight is memories and photo on wall of them in the space suit. Which one would you want on wall, SpaceX or Boeing.


Offline sanman

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #72 on: 08/24/2017 07:36 PM »
That's right.

The pictures of SpaceX's flight suit show it unpressurized (notice the wrinkles). How form-fitting and ergonomic will it be when pressurized? The person wearing the suit will have work against the inflated suit, just like any flight suit design.

Part of the bulk of Apollo suits was the MMOD layers because they were EVA suits, not just IVA suits.

Form-fitting suits will require counterpressure suit technology, something still in development.

I've seen videos about counterpressure suits being developed:




So I'm thinking that an ideal suit wouldn't be supertight and absolutely form-fitting, because then it might cut off circulation. I'm thinking that an ergonomically ideal suit should have the elastically contractive polymers trying to maintain a suit envelope/form/shape that closely approximates the form/shape of the wearer, but not so closely as to cause constriction to the wearer. That would then also be able to accommodate the weight/girth fluctuations of the wearer.

« Last Edit: 08/24/2017 07:37 PM by sanman »

Offline sanman

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #73 on: 08/24/2017 07:39 PM »
For space tourists the only thing left after flight is memories and photo on wall of them in the space suit. Which one would you want on wall, SpaceX or Boeing.

I think they should market it to motorcyclists and skiers as well

"Have SpaceX Suit - Will Travel"   ;)

Offline sanman

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #74 on: 08/24/2017 07:51 PM »
From another thread:

Quote
Pics of SpaceX spacesuit developed for NASA commercial crew program coming out next week. Undergoing ocean landing mobility/safety tests.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/899075756508065793


So what kind of criteria have to be met for ocean landing mobility/safety?

Do you have to be able to swim in the thing? (Or at least not sink like stone?)
Presumably the suit mustn't obstruct egress from the vehicle.

Does it have to be fireproof?

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #75 on: 08/24/2017 08:28 PM »
For space tourists the only thing left after flight is memories and photo on wall of them in the space suit. Which one would you want on wall, SpaceX or Boeing.

If the spacesuit is custom fitted to individual customers than maybe for a small fee  ;D one can have a suit to display on the wall or on a mannequin like they do with Medieval armour.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #76 on: 08/24/2017 09:37 PM »
Quote
Pics of SpaceX spacesuit developed for NASA commercial crew program coming out next week. Undergoing ocean landing mobility/safety tests.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/899075756508065793


So what kind of criteria have to be met for ocean landing mobility/safety?

Do you have to be able to swim in the thing? (Or at least not sink like stone?)
Presumably the suit mustn't obstruct egress from the vehicle.

Does it have to be fireproof?
Assume astronauts must be able to meet minimum egress/evacuation times--while wearing the suits--in the event of a sinking capsule.  Plus obviously they have to be able to maintain floatation . 
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Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #77 on: 08/24/2017 10:07 PM »


The pictures of SpaceX's flight suit show it unpressurized (notice the wrinkles). How form-fitting and ergonomic will it be when pressurized? The person wearing the suit will have work against the inflated suit, just like any flight suit design.

I don't get this obsession with "pressurized". In a nominal situation there is at most a very small pressure difference between the inside and the outside of the suit.
And in an emergency situation it's not the suit that is pressurized, the environment is depressurized.

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #78 on: 08/24/2017 10:12 PM »



I've seen videos about counterpressure suits being developed:




So I'm thinking that an ideal suit wouldn't be supertight and absolutely form-fitting, because then it might cut off circulation. I'm thinking that an ergonomically ideal suit should have the elastically contractive polymers trying to maintain a suit envelope/form/shape that closely approximates the form/shape of the wearer, but not so closely as to cause constriction to the wearer. That would then also be able to accommodate the weight/girth fluctuations of the wearer.

A skin suit has to be super tight. If there is any air between the suit and the skin of the wearer, the air would expand in vacuum and the advantages of the skin suit would be lost.

Online Herb Schaltegger

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #79 on: 08/24/2017 10:22 PM »


The pictures of SpaceX's flight suit show it unpressurized (notice the wrinkles). How form-fitting and ergonomic will it be when pressurized? The person wearing the suit will have work against the inflated suit, just like any flight suit design.

I don't get this obsession with "pressurized". In a nominal situation there is at most a very small pressure difference between the inside and the outside of the suit.
And in an emergency situation it's not the suit that is pressurized, the environment is depressurized.

And if the external pressure is loss the suit is, thus, "pressurized" and unless very carefully designed will be substantially more difficult to move than before. Which is the point.

 Whatever internal pressure of the Dragon 2 is thus the de facto working pressure of the suit if necessary.
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Offline sanman

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #80 on: 08/24/2017 10:28 PM »
A skin suit has to be super tight. If there is any air between the suit and the skin of the wearer, the air would expand in vacuum and the advantages of the skin suit would be lost.

Why can't the suit structure be designed to counter the pressure-expansion force to the point of maintaining a loose fit around the wearer, instead of countering it to the point of maintaining a tight fit around the wearer? So some small minor amount of ballooning would occur, but it would be small enough to not be inconvenient.


What if the suit had a lot of very soft foam on the interior, that would occupy the space between the wearer's body and the main suit layer/structure? That soft foam would occupy the space that air pockets might otherwise occupy, and yet it would not cause any ballooning of the suit in a vacuum environment. Wouldn't that work?

« Last Edit: 08/24/2017 10:34 PM by sanman »

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #81 on: 08/24/2017 10:32 PM »
And in an emergency situation it's not the suit that is pressurized, the environment is depressurized.
The only issue is the difference between internal and external.  Or, are you claiming that the suit somehow can tell the difference between 2atm internal-1atm external and 1atm internal-0atm external? 
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Offline sanman

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #82 on: 08/24/2017 10:36 PM »
They said it was tested at double vacuum pressure - I'm presuming that means the suit interior was inflated to 2x atmospheric pressure, and then exposed to a hard vacuum environment.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #83 on: 08/24/2017 10:44 PM »
They said it was tested at double vacuum pressure - I'm presuming that means the suit interior was inflated to 2x atmospheric pressure, and then exposed to a hard vacuum environment.

That's a bad assumption to make from the imprecise language and sloppy terminology used in a social media post.  If the suit operates at 5 PSI O2, for instance, it's just as likely it was inflated to 10 psig (e.g., about 24.7 PSIA). And for that matter, "tested" how? Leak tests to twice operating pressure are common for some things. That doesn't mean it can be comfortably worn and operated/moved around while wearing at double its normal operating pressure.
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Offline llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #84 on: 08/24/2017 10:54 PM »
For space tourists the only thing left after flight is memories and photo on wall of them in the space suit. Which one would you want on wall, SpaceX or Boeing.


Who cares?  Either way it will say "I was there". 




Of course, if it's the SpaceX suit, it will also say "and I only spent half as much."
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Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #85 on: 08/24/2017 11:04 PM »


A skin suit has to be super tight. If there is any air between the suit and the skin of the wearer, the air would expand in vacuum and the advantages of the skin suit would be lost.

Why can't the suit structure be designed to counter the pressure-expansion force to the point of maintaining a loose fit around the wearer, instead of countering it to the point of maintaining a tight fit around the wearer? So some small minor amount of ballooning would occur, but it would be small enough to not be inconvenient.


What if the suit had a lot of very soft foam on the interior, that would occupy the space between the wearer's body and the main suit layer/structure? That soft foam would occupy the space that air pockets might otherwise occupy, and yet it would not cause any ballooning of the suit in a vacuum environment. Wouldn't that work?

Than it would not be a skin suit but something else.

As for foam: what do you think foam is? Lots of gas bubbles that will expand! You don't want this. At all!

Offline whitelancer64

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #86 on: 08/24/2017 11:05 PM »
They said it was tested at double vacuum pressure - I'm presuming that means the suit interior was inflated to 2x atmospheric pressure, and then exposed to a hard vacuum environment.

It means the suit was pressurized to twice what it would be in a vacuum, this was probably, but not necessarily, actually done in a vacuum.

If the working pressure of the suit is 5 psi, then inflating it to 10 psi in a vacuum would be "double vacuum pressure." Alternatively, it could be pressurized to 24.7 psi in standard atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi. The 10 psi differential is equivalent to the suit being inflated to 10 psi in a vacuum, without the need for a vacuum chamber. I would assume the suit was thus pressurized many times in development.

I would presume, however, that one of NASA's vacuum chambers was utilized for the final qualification testing, thereby demonstrating the functionality of the suit in the actual operational environment.
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Offline JasonAW3

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #87 on: 08/24/2017 11:23 PM »
Ok, I k ow that this is a bit off topic, but it occurred to me that there may be a way to make a conformal counter pressure suit that would be too put on and take off with a aerogel like inner liner.

      Essentially, the gel layer would be fairly collapsed at both sea level and spacecraft/colony pressures, pretty much being semi loose fitting suit.  When the exterior pressure were to drop, the gel liner would expand, providing a counter pressure equal to or slightly below the spacecraft pressure to the wearer of the suit.  This would require a certain elastic quality to the gel liner, but made in a similar manner to aerogel, it should allow a certain amount of wicking capability, helping to maintain both a low humidity environment, as well as natural cooling.

     Upon returning to normal spacecraft pressure, the gel layer would return to the thinner layer it normally would be.  This may also require an additional inner cloth layer to prevent ski. From sticking to the gel layer, but I suspect such a design is possible.
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Offline Chris_Pi

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #88 on: 08/25/2017 12:22 AM »
Sounds to me like you're describing a closed-cell foam that's very gastight between cells and has a low pressure in them so the bubbles in the foam are mostly collapsed at normal atmospheric pressure and expand to larger volume as the pressure drops.

I'm not sure how it could be made like that and also be porous enough to allow anything through at the same time, But it sure sounds like a very interesting material if it could be manufactured.

Pretty much a variable thickness gapfiller between a non-stretchable pressure layer and the person inside. MCP via expansion instead of stretch. Neat.

Have I got that right, Or have I misunderstood something?
And yeah, Pretty Ot.  Maybe worth it's own thread?

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #89 on: 08/25/2017 02:05 AM »
Ok, I k ow that this is a bit off topic, but it occurred to me that there may be a way to make a conformal counter pressure suit that would be too put on and take off with a aerogel like inner liner.


Aerogel is brittle, fragile and can not handle any stress.  It is the opposite of flexible.   Even though it is light and drops slower than a feather, it still shatters.


      Essentially, the gel layer would be fairly collapsed at both sea level and spacecraft/colony pressures, pretty much being semi loose fitting suit.  When the exterior pressure were to drop, the gel liner would expand, providing a counter pressure equal to or slightly below the spacecraft pressure to the wearer of the suit.

This would still make the suit just as stiff as with air.
« Last Edit: 08/25/2017 02:08 AM by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #90 on: 08/25/2017 02:19 AM »


I don't get this obsession with "pressurized". In a nominal situation there is at most a very small pressure difference between the inside and the outside of the suit.
And in an emergency situation it's not the suit that is pressurized, the environment is depressurized.

When suit is worn in a one atmosphere cabin, there is little air in it and it is collapsed and loose.  There is some air provided to it for breathing and cooling.  If the cabin depressurizes, the suit balloons, but the air in it is not enough to provide pressure, so more has to be added to a livable level.  That is around 8.3 psia in normal air mixture. So to make the suit as though it is pressurized to 8.3 psia in a 0 psia environment, it must be pressurized to 23 psia in a  14.7 psia environment.





Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #91 on: 08/25/2017 02:58 AM »
Okay, look - to stay alive you have to have sufficient pressure gradients to force oxygen out of your lungs and into your bloodstream, and then out of your bloodstream and into your body tissues (most specifically, brain tissues). To first order, you have to have at least 2 psi of oxygen in your lungs to ensure you stay awake and functional. On Earth at sea level, the partial pressure of O2 in your lungs is 3psi. Suits through Apollo used 3.5 psi pure O2 atmospheres for EVA; EMUs for Shuttle and Station use 4.3 psi.

If you have a good flight, you need never close your visor on a launch and entry suit and can remain unpressurized. More likely, to be conservative on launch you close your visor and operate at "vent pressure", a small fraction of a PSI above cabin pressure. If there's a fire on the pad, you operate at vent pressure to ensure that no smoke comes into the suit while you run for the slide wires or other pad escape system.  If, on the other hand you lose cabin pressure in flight, you must seal your suit, run pure O2 in the suit loop, and ensure you never drop below 3-4 PSI @100% O2 to stay alive and alert and have sufficient mobility to move your hands and arms to operate the spacecraft. So, if you're a long way from Earth ("2018" lunar flyby, anyone?), you have to have the capability to drink and eat in a pressurized suit with vacuum outside for up to six days (i.e., the NASA "pressure suit poop" contest.)

It is also critical to maintain homeostasis: the pressure in your lungs and body tissue must be equal to the pressure outside. If the pressure in your lungs is more than ~1 PSI above ambient. your alveolar tissues tear, your lungs fill with blood and you have a pulmonary embolism, which is generally fatal. Usually homeostasis is maintained by the gas inside the pressure suit at the same pressure as your respiration; a conventional pressure suit can be termed a gas counterpressure suit (but no one actually does). A mechanical counterpressure suit has NO gas under the suit fabric: the elastic pressure of the fabric is designed to produce the same pressure externally as the breathing supply does internally. Your skin is exposed on a sub-millimeter level to vacuum, which is small enough you don't (ideally) have petechia or edema, and sweating through the fabric weave (with flash-evaporation in vacuum) produces passive cooling. Gels or foams generally require the same degree of vapor barrier as a pressure bladder, so probably not going to be an improvement of a pressurized suit. I could go on for hours about the difficulties of an actual operational MCP suit, but this is not the place for it.

Sorry to go all professorial on you, but I've worked with spacesuits my entire career, and some of the comments in this thread have been driving me crazy. Hope this helps with keeping the discussion real.
« Last Edit: 08/25/2017 04:16 AM by obi-wan »

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #92 on: 08/25/2017 03:55 AM »
Sorry to go all professorial on you, but I've worked with spacesuits my entire career, and some of the comments in this thread have been driving me crazy. Hope this helps with keeping the discussion real.

I found your post VERY educational, so thank you for going into the detail that you did.

A friend of mine is a professional rebreather diver whose "work" is usually at 100m underwater. Kind of at the complete opposite end of the danger spectrum from people working in a vacuum. It's always fascinating when I get him talking about the technologies and techniques that they currently use, and that they would like to use (like hard suits).

I keep hoping that we can eventually perfect the technologies and techniques that we'll need to make traveling to, and working in space simple enough that we'll be able to expand humanity out into space, but it appears we're still aways away from that - it's still the realm of highly trained individuals and technology complex systems.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #93 on: 08/25/2017 04:43 AM »
Okay, look - to stay alive you have to have sufficient pressure gradients to force oxygen out of your lungs and into your bloodstream, and then out of your bloodstream and into your body tissues (most specifically, brain tissues). To first order, you have to have at least 2 psi of oxygen in your lungs to ensure you stay awake and functional. ...
Not even to first order. People sometimes climb Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen. Just 1psi of oxygen on Everest. Of course, they had to train a lot to do this and it ain't too healthy for you, but it can be done even with the physical exertion of a climb.

(Not that this really has much bearing on the rest of your post. I take your professional opinion on the overall topic as more important than me pointing out this factoid.)
« Last Edit: 08/25/2017 04:47 AM by Robotbeat »
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Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #94 on: 08/25/2017 05:19 AM »


The pictures of SpaceX's flight suit show it unpressurized (notice the wrinkles). How form-fitting and ergonomic will it be when pressurized? The person wearing the suit will have work against the inflated suit, just like any flight suit design.

I don't get this obsession with "pressurized". In a nominal situation there is at most a very small pressure difference between the inside and the outside of the suit.
And in an emergency situation it's not the suit that is pressurized, the environment is depressurized.

..  and your life may depend on how much you were able to accomplish before pressure was lost.  And perhaps if you can move quick enough, pressure will not even be lost.   So the emphasis on "normal" environment functionality is justified.
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Offline cosmicvoid

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #95 on: 08/25/2017 05:45 AM »
I'm wondering if there is some way to have the helmet or faceplate open until pressurization is actually needed. How else would you be able to scratch your nose?
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Online Lars-J

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #96 on: 08/25/2017 05:53 AM »
I'm wondering if there is some way to have the helmet or faceplate open until pressurization is actually needed. How else would you be able to scratch your nose?

That's why astronauts are the right stuff. They don't need to scratch their nose.  ;D

On a more serious note, there may be a way to open the faceplate partially. We can't know for sure from just that picture.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #97 on: 08/25/2017 06:37 AM »

Well, even if it's just a flight suit, the SpaceX suit certainly seems to have a nice ergonomic design, which is more than can be said for the fatty space suits of the Apollo and Shuttle eras. Are you saying that space suits will never become more form-fitting and will always remain superfat? Surely ergonomics matters, and having a lighter and more form-fitting suit should at least be an ideal or goal. Why would anyone want things to stay fat and bulky, if technology can continue to come up with something better?

The Spacex suit is not inflated.  There is no technology update, just fancy marketing photos.
You can leave out the marketing part. There is no market for this outside CCP and the odd tourist flight. And the latter will fly in whatever suit provided by SpaceX.
SpaceX does not have to "market" their flight suit. It just has to conform to requirements. As long as it does that Elon can stick on the suit whatever fancy-looking outer garment he wants.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #98 on: 08/25/2017 06:44 AM »
And if the external pressure is loss the suit is, thus, "pressurized" and unless very carefully designed will be substantially more difficult to move than before. Which is the point.
Emphasis mine.
No, it isn't. Much like the Soyuz Sokol suit it only needs to allow some very rudimentary mobility in the arms (while fully pressurized) to allow the astros throwing switches and such. There is no need to move around the cabin in these suits as they will only be in functional use (as in: pressurized) during the "seated" phases of flight: launch-to-orbit-insertion and reenty-to-landing. As long as the air outside the spacecraft is sufficiently "thick" to sustain human life the suit will not restrict the astros in their movements because the suit will not be pressurized.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #99 on: 08/25/2017 07:08 AM »
If, on the other hand you lose cabin pressure in flight, you must seal your suit, run pure O2 in the suit loop, and ensure you never drop below 3-4 PSI @100% O2 to stay alive and alert and have sufficient mobility to move your hands and arms to operate the spacecraft. So, if you're a long way from Earth ("2018" lunar flyby, anyone?), you have to have the capability to drink and eat in a pressurized suit with vacuum outside for up to six days (i.e., the NASA "pressure suit poop" contest.)

First off: excellent post and thank you for your insight.

However, I singled-out the bit above because here is where you steered wrong.

You assume that having an irreversable depressurization during a lunar mission requires the crew to live in their suits for days on end. However, that is all very dependent on how fast that depressurization takes place.
For example: Once on their way to the moon the Apollo crews doffed their IVA suits and primarily wore coveralls. NASA determinded that in a very wide range of depressurization scenarios the crew would not be able to to re-don their IVA suits (which really were undressed EVA suits) in time. And thus the crew would be dead. Yet, NASA still allowed the crews to doff their IVA suits during trans-lunar and trans-earth phases of the flight.

Another example: during the non-ISS shuttle missions the crew doffed their pumpkin suits after reaching orbit. Again NASA determined that in a wide range of depressurization scenarios (part of) the crew would not be able to re-don their pumpkin suits in time to survive. Yet NASA still allowed the astros to doff their pumpkin suits for the majority of the mission.

The same will apply to the scenario you sketched in your post. NASA will allow crews of Orion to doff their (M-)ACES suits after TLI. And again there will be a wide range of depressurization scenarios where the crew will not be able to re-don their IVA suits in time to survive. The same will be the case for the proposed SpaceX circumlunar mission.

IVA suits are primarily intended as safeguards against cabin pressurization during those parts of the mission where a cabin is most likely to spring a leak: Launch and Re-enty. All other phases of flight (particularly on flights that leave polluted LEO behind) have ridiculously low chances of springing cabin leaks.
« Last Edit: 08/25/2017 07:09 AM by woods170 »

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #100 on: 08/25/2017 07:45 AM »
Not an expert, just sharing what I know from researching the topic.

Mechanical counterpressure is being worked into suits in stages; there's no reason not to have MCP joints and the rest of the limbs/torso using traditional pressure bladders and ring joints. This is kind of the route Final Frontier Design is taking with their suit gloves: the inside (palm) sections are mechanical counterpressure whilst the backs of the fingers etc are pressure bladder. Believe me, it looks extremely complicated and it is. They've been trying to develop an MCP glove since 1999 and it's been tough going. Even the newest ones are still quite uncomfortable, especially due to the dams between pressurised and MCP and have high pressure differentials across them. Though even then I think it's a vast improvement over what the astronauts currently use.

The current pressure bladder gloves are terrible: dexterity sucks big time and astronauts can lose fingernails it's so rough working with them. Despite this, NASA is still super conservative: as a result we have spacesuits that are almost as old as I am (not just the design) currently stinking up the ISS (they are never EVER washed up there due to pure O2 pressurisation).

Currently the only real example of a working MCP suit was a crazy fella back in the 60s (Dr. Paul Webb) who made one and ran around with it in a vacuum chamber and looked rather like a naked man with a spacesuit helmet because the available material was flesh-coloured. AIUI four major problems are:
1. the main thing that's been holding back MCP development is that the suits need to deliver 1/3 atm compression, a NASA requirement which is considered the safe level for emergency decompression from 1 atm, and so they currently get 1/4 at best. Medical compression dressings only exert like 0.07 atm, and those are already pretty tight.
2. the joints are even harder to get right on MCP because you have to exert constant compression over the entire surface area: when the back of your knee reduces so radically in surface area the elastic compression drops off and winds up compressing the front so the compression has to be guided with non-elastic wiring like a bicycle's brake line... all those lines are what make Dava Newman's Biosuit look so cool.



3. an elastic torso section exerts constant pressure: to breath you actively have to fight the external atmospheric pressure. Like an iron lung in reverse.
4. for males, the genitals are really difficult to protect with elasticated material and so need a pressurised lunchbox. 

There's also the matter of being able to don and doff these things reasonably quickly, with a minimum of help.

Basically these suits look simple but are fantastically complex:



This is really difficult stuff, not just putting on a space leotard and Dr. Dava Newman has been pushing this tech which is why it seems to be slowly trickling towards acceptance. If she hadn't gotten involved, it probably would have languished for another 30 years, or until private spaceflight picked up enough for someone less risk-averse to try implement it.

As for the SpaceX IVA suit, the reason for the slick design is simple. SpaceX is not currently a publicly traded company but you can still buy shares in it. The more impressive your tech looks, the more non-tech-minded investors are impressed by it (and this in turn raises your share price).

https://appel.nasa.gov/2012/01/11/building-the-future-spacesuit/
http://exrocketman.blogspot.co.za/2014/02/
http://www.finalfrontierdesign.com/gloves-for-space-and-earth
« Last Edit: 08/25/2017 03:50 PM by Lampyridae »
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #101 on: 08/25/2017 12:33 PM »
And if the external pressure is loss the suit is, thus, "pressurized" and unless very carefully designed will be substantially more difficult to move than before. Which is the point.
Emphasis mine.
No, it isn't. ...

Yes, it was to the post I was actually responding to. Way to cherrypick.
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Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #102 on: 08/25/2017 12:36 PM »
If, on the other hand you lose cabin pressure in flight, you must seal your suit, run pure O2 in the suit loop, and ensure you never drop below 3-4 PSI @100% O2 to stay alive and alert and have sufficient mobility to move your hands and arms to operate the spacecraft.

But if you were at 14.7 psia with normal air mixture and then lose cabin pressure, wouldn't the suit pressure have to be higher to prevent the bends?

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #103 on: 08/25/2017 01:37 PM »
Okay, look - to stay alive you have to have sufficient pressure gradients to force oxygen out of your lungs and into your bloodstream, and then out of your bloodstream and into your body tissues (most specifically, brain tissues). To first order, you have to have at least 2 psi of oxygen in your lungs to ensure you stay awake and functional. ...
Not even to first order. People sometimes climb Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen. Just 1psi of oxygen on Everest. Of course, they had to train a lot to do this and it ain't too healthy for you, but it can be done even with the physical exertion of a climb.

(Not that this really has much bearing on the rest of your post. I take your professional opinion on the overall topic as more important than me pointing out this factoid.)

True, but talk to someone who summited Everest, and they'll tell you that it took their full concentration to move one foot in front of another to keep moving. I think a better example would be the requirement that pilots be on supplemental oxygen at 12,500 feet and above in unpressurized aircraft, which is closer to 2 psi. Like I said, "rough order of magnitude..."

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #104 on: 08/25/2017 01:40 PM »
If, on the other hand you lose cabin pressure in flight, you must seal your suit, run pure O2 in the suit loop, and ensure you never drop below 3-4 PSI @100% O2 to stay alive and alert and have sufficient mobility to move your hands and arms to operate the spacecraft.

But if you were at 14.7 psia with normal air mixture and then lose cabin pressure, wouldn't the suit pressure have to be higher to prevent the bends?

It has to be about 0.5 atm to prevent the bends (5 500m pressure altitude), though airliners are down-pressurised to 0.75 atm (2 400m) without ill effect. Between 5 500m and 7 500m DCS symptoms appear and then at 7 500m+ is when most accidents occur.

IIRC the shuttle was depressurised to 10psi prior to spacewalks. Or the astronauts camped out in the airlock at 10psi... not sure.
« Last Edit: 08/25/2017 01:44 PM by Lampyridae »
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Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #105 on: 08/25/2017 01:42 PM »
If, on the other hand you lose cabin pressure in flight, you must seal your suit, run pure O2 in the suit loop, and ensure you never drop below 3-4 PSI @100% O2 to stay alive and alert and have sufficient mobility to move your hands and arms to operate the spacecraft.

But if you were at 14.7 psia with normal air mixture and then lose cabin pressure, wouldn't the suit pressure have to be higher to prevent the bends?

Skipping the physiology and math, a good guideline is you can drop your pressure by half without serious problems. Scuba divers at 33 feet of sea water (2 atm absolute) can ascend to the surface (1 atm) without decompression stops pretty much regardless of how long they've been down. LES suits are on 100% O2 supplies for that reason, so if you can maintain pressure at 7-7.5 psi in a decompression scenario from a 14.7 psi cabin, you should be fine. I honestly don't know if LES suits are rated to that pressure differential - think I'll ask a friend at David Clark about it.

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #106 on: 08/25/2017 02:27 PM »
Not an expert, just sharing what I know from researching the topic.

I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm, but what you read (particularly in popular literature, as compared to technical publications) doesn't alway provide the full picture. I worked on mechanical counter pressure gloves off and on over twenty years, and was a frequent test subject, so I have some experience in this area.

Mechanical counterpressure is being worked into suits in stages; there's no reason not to have MCP joints and the rest of the limbs/torso using traditional pressure bladders and ring joints. This is kind of the route Final Frontier Design is taking with their suit gloves: the inside (palm) sections are mechanical counterpressure whilst the backs of the fingers etc are pressure bladder. Believe me, it looks extremely complicated and it is. They've been trying to develop an MCP glove since 1999 and it's been tough going. Even the newest ones are still quite uncomfortable, especially due to the dams between pressurised and MCP and have high pressure differentials across them. Though even then I think it's a vast improvement over what the astronauts currently use.
FFD is doing excellent work; their MCP glove is very similar in concept to the capstan-based partial pressure suits of the 1950's (the ones with the tubes running down the arms and legs). I haven't have a chance to try out their MCP glove, and they just delivered it to NASA so neither has anyone else, but I will say I've worn their IVA gloves in a glove box and they are very nice. The issue with an MCP glove is seldom the flexibility, but the long-term physiological damage to the hand (unless it works perfectly).


The current pressure bladder gloves are terrible: dexterity sucks big time and astronauts can lose fingernails it's so rough working with them. Despite this, NASA is still super conservative: as a result we have spacesuits that are almost as old as I am (not just the design) currently stinking up the ISS (they are never EVER washed up there due to pure O2 pressurisation).

It's statements like this that make me want to pull (what remains of) my hair out. Are pressure suit gloves bulky and burdensome? Yes. Are they "terrible"? Does their dexterity "suck"? Given what they have to do, not really. (I played hockey for many, many years. I tell people who want to understand pressure suit gloves to wear hockey gloves, which are (in many ways) worse.) There have been many, many advances in pressure suit gloves over the decades, and modern gloves are far superior to those used in the days of Gemini and Apollo. Yes, they take a lot of energy, they don't have all of the degrees of freedom of your bare hand, and repetitive stress injuries are not unknown (but not really all that common). NASA has put a lot of effort into improving suits and, specifically, gloves. Even the current ISS EMU (and I have my complaints about the EMU) are a lot better in terms of maintainability and resizing than the original shuttle EMUs. (And suits don't "stink", although they do have a distinctive odor due to the materials used to make them. Suits on-orbit are wiped down internally with antibacterial wipes after each EVA, which is about the same process used for suits in Earth testing. You're not going to throw pressure bladders into the washing machine, ever!)

Currently the only real example of a working MCP suit was a crazy fella back in the 60s (Dr. Paul Webb) who made one and ran around with it in a vacuum chamber and looked rather like a naked man with a spacesuit helmet because the available material was flesh-coloured. AIUI four major problems are:
1. the main thing that's been holding back MCP development is that the suits need to deliver 1/3 atm compression, a NASA requirement which is considered the safe level for emergency decompression from 1 atm, and so they currently get 1/4 at best. Medical compression dressings only exert like 0.07 atm, and those are already pretty tight.
2. the joints are even harder to get right on MCP because you have to exert constant compression over the entire surface area: when the back of your knee reduces so radically in surface area the elastic compression drops off and winds up compressing the front so the compression has to be guided with non-elastic wiring like a bicycle's brake line... all those lines are what make Dava Newman's Biosuit look so cool.
(Image cropped)
3. an elastic torso section exerts constant pressure: to breath you actively have to fight the external atmospheric pressure. Like an iron lung in reverse.
4. for males, the genitals are really difficult to protect with elasticated material and so need a pressurised lunchbox. 

There's also the matter of being able to don and doff these things reasonably quickly, with a minimum of help.

Dr. Paul Webb was a highly respected member of the EVA community, not a "crazy fella". Everyone recognized the benefits of his concept, but the implementation and operations difficulties made them infeasible for use in space.

Your four "issues" are among all of the highly-interrelated problems with the concept. The pressure on the skin has to be the same as the pressure in your lungs, and that needs to be true everywhere. The normal pressure is an inverse function of the radius of curvature, and just about everywhere on the body the radius of curvature depends on the direction you're looking. Elastic fabric will seek the lowest-energy configuration, which will mean it gaps across any concavities. That means armpits, elbows, the palms of the hands, back of the knees, ankles, toes, fingers, and yes, the crotch area are all vulnerable to edema and long-term tissue damage. To produce 3 psi normal pressure, even the best modern fabrics (the triaxial latex weaves used for burn garments, which are all produced only in "flesh" color) has to be stretched close to its yield limit, which means it usually takes a couple of strong friends and a plethora of zippers to be able to get into the suit. If you have 3psi fabric pressure on your torso, you will NOT be able to breathe. Ever. Even a little. You would have to get your helmet on and pressurized within, oh, 90 seconds after zipping up your torso or you will suffer brain damage and die. (Actually, this is a non-issue - with an elastic fabric torso, you would have great difficulty inhaling and exhaling even with pressure in your helmet. MCP designs always incorporate a bladder in the torso linked with an air passage to the helmet so there is room for you to breathe in and out without working against the fabric.) Dr. Newman's suit (which unfortunately too many people think is a functional MCP suit) was really only developed to illustrate the concept of lines of non-elongation in the skin - places you could put restraint lines without interfering with the wearer's movements.


Basically these suits look simple but are fantastically complex:

This is really difficult stuff, not just putting on a space leotard and Dr. Dava Newman has been pushing this tech which is why it seems to be slowly trickling towards acceptance. If she hadn't gotten involved, it probably would have languished for another 30 years, or until private spaceflight picked up enough for someone less risk-averse to try implement it.
There have been a number of organizations working on MCP suits down through the years. Dava wrote an excellent proposal to get NASA NIAC funding for her "biosuit" concept, and has done excellent work on it since then. She is highly respected in the community for all of her research, not just the biosuit. (She's also an old friend.) However, I think the fact that she created a realistic-looking simulation of the overall suit garment has led to much more publicity than most research projects, and has left the impression that her group is the only one working on MCP systems. (I've even seen a number of popular publications that flatly state that she invented mechanical counter pressure, which she would be the first to emphasize is not true.) 

As for the SpaceX IVA suit, the reason for the slick design is simple. SpaceX is not currently a publicly traded company but you can still buy shares in it. The more impressive your tech looks, the more non-tech-minded investors are impressed by it (and this in turn raises your share price).

Even when you don't have shares to worry about, it really helps to have a pretty blonde postgrad showing off your suit because internet.
All right, I'll apologize in advance for my "hot button" reaction to this, but I have trained a large number of engineers down through the years, and some of them (not enough) were women. The grad students in those images (including Dava, who was my grad student for a time) have earned their way into the foremost engineering program in the world. They are doing cutting-edge research, and deserve not to be regarded as eye candy. Especially not in an excellent forum like this one, but not anywhere, "internet" or not.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #107 on: 08/25/2017 03:48 PM »
Thanks again for your very detailed and valuable input. One of the great things about NSF is the chance to rub digital shoulders with such experienced people. Just be aware that I am going to be extremely annoying in a fanboi way and try pick your brains.

1. I appreciate your interest and enthusiasm, but what you read (particularly in popular literature, as compared to technical publications) doesn't alway provide the full picture. I worked on mechanical counter pressure gloves off and on over twenty years, and was a frequent test subject, so I have some experience in this area.

2. All right, I'll apologize in advance for my "hot button" reaction to this, but I have trained a large number of engineers down through the years, and some of them (not enough) were women. The grad students in those images (including Dava, who was my grad student for a time) have earned their way into the foremost engineering program in the world. They are doing cutting-edge research, and deserve not to be regarded as eye candy. Especially not in an excellent forum like this one, but not anywhere, "internet" or not.

1. I try and read what is available, and the best I can get is non-paywalled journal articles. Most people simply don't dig that far and I try and read what I can. :) I would like permission to quote you in blog posts though, if that's ok?

2. I know I'm just coming across as Random Guy #3376 on the internet but I in no way am dismissive of their talent and achievements, and am not implying that they are eye candy (preaching to the choir here). I apologise if I came across that way. What I'm being dismissive of is the increasingly shallow Instagram nature of the public. I also naively presume that it is also easier to develop that MCP forerunner for women first and that's part of the reason.

"Suit stink": I got that from reading astronaut autobiographies. What they said is beyond the wipe, that's all they do with it. I can't remember who said it, (I think Chris Hadfield? -no, Wheelock), but gyms and jockstraps were mentioned. I found that really interesting. As you noted, I can be expected to get things wrong.

As for "crazy fella" I guess that's too familiar and I apologise, but I did mean that in a good way (like the guys in Ignition who developed the first liquid fuel combinations).


Since I forgot to add the link, here's the article I copied the images from. Very interesting information for the rest of us.

https://ttu-ir.tdl.org/ttu-ir/handle/2346/72920
« Last Edit: 08/25/2017 05:04 PM by Lampyridae »
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #108 on: 08/25/2017 08:20 PM »
so cool the new Space suit looks

were oxygen supply and umbilical connections on that suit ?

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #109 on: 09/01/2017 04:38 PM »
So, a week later and the "big reveal" is still one photo of a portion of the suit? Interesting comparison in how Boeing revealed their suit and what SpaceX has done so far. They've had photos of scuba divers working with their water rescue Dragon mockup and Garrett said he participated wearing a SpaceX suit, but no photos of that. I can't come up with a believable reason why it's beneficial to SpaceX to keep their suit under wraps...

Online AncientU

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #110 on: 09/01/2017 04:51 PM »
They are busy with other things?
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #111 on: 09/01/2017 05:06 PM »
Could also be saving it for the September IAC talks.

Offline GWH

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #112 on: 09/01/2017 07:45 PM »
Could also be saving it for the September IAC talks.

Not what was said.

Quote from: elonmusk
First picture of SpaceX spacesuit. More in days to follow.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/?hl=en&taken-by=elonmusk

They are busy with other things?
It's not like their PR department is busy working engineering problems, or really releasing a whole lot of anything. (Hello Falcon Heavy fit test?!)
No real reason to hold out other than if they were planning for a slick reveal with a site launch or edited video.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #113 on: 09/02/2017 01:03 AM »
....
It's not like their PR department is busy working engineering problems, or really releasing a whole lot of anything. (Hello Falcon Heavy fit test?!)
No real reason to hold out other than if they were planning for a slick reveal with a site launch or edited video.
SX PR == Musk's tweeterfeed  ;)

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #114 on: 09/02/2017 01:59 AM »
...
It's not like their PR department is busy working engineering problems, or really releasing a whole lot of anything. (Hello Falcon Heavy fit test?!)
No real reason to hold out other than if they were planning for a slick reveal with a site launch or edited video.
They're busy on the the landing booster blooper video.

More seriously, are we sure they actually have a PR department?
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Offline GWH

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #115 on: 09/02/2017 02:19 AM »
They used to at least. I feel like almost  once a week there would be new images or videos of what they are up to.
Bi-weekly launches are awesome  of course,  but I miss the development heavy releases.

Edit: Apparently they also just work weird hours?  Posted at 8pm on a Friday of the long weekend but who cares the FH booster firing is a beautiful sight.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2017 03:43 AM by GWH »

Offline TripD

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #116 on: 09/02/2017 03:54 AM »
Could also be saving it for the September IAC talks.

Not what was said.

Quote from: elonmusk
First picture of SpaceX spacesuit. More in days to follow.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYIPmEFAIIn/?hl=en&taken-by=elonmusk

snip .....

Not to nitpick, but I can see the IAC as a great time to unveil it, and Elon's statement is vague enough to allow for 
that possibility.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #117 on: 09/02/2017 09:18 AM »

Not to nitpick, but I can see the IAC as a great time to unveil it, and Elon's statement is vague enough to allow for 
that possibility.

It's a distraction.
Due to a managment oversight failure, and unclear specifications, they now have a working prototype available to announce at IAC of a vacuum-capable Iron man suit with working thrusters.

Online KelvinZero

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #118 on: 09/02/2017 10:43 AM »
Skipping the physiology and math, a good guideline is you can drop your pressure by half without serious problems. Scuba divers at 33 feet of sea water (2 atm absolute) can ascend to the surface (1 atm) without decompression stops pretty much regardless of how long they've been down.
Poor Americans. In sensible SI units, that is  basically 10m. Either a pure coincidence or evidence that God is actually French  :)

( Another one is speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s, very close to 3.00×108 m/s. Gravity is 9.8 m/s so can also be approximated to 10 for various guestimates. One atmosphere is 101 kPa but I guess that is actually the same coincidence as the 10m depth thing.)
« Last Edit: 09/02/2017 10:45 AM by KelvinZero »

Offline guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #119 on: 09/02/2017 11:55 AM »
Not to nitpick, but I can see the IAC as a great time to unveil it, and Elon's statement is vague enough to allow for 
that possibility.

I want to see the spacesuit as much as anyone. But at the IAC I hope Elon does not waste his time on the suit. I want to know as much as possible in as much detail as possible about the future strategy of launch vehicles for Mars and the Mars plans.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #120 on: 09/02/2017 12:27 PM »
Skipping the physiology and math, a good guideline is you can drop your pressure by half without serious problems. Scuba divers at 33 feet of sea water (2 atm absolute) can ascend to the surface (1 atm) without decompression stops pretty much regardless of how long they've been down.
Poor Americans. In sensible SI units, that is  basically 10m. Either a pure coincidence or evidence that God is actually French  :)

( Another one is speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s, very close to 3.00×108 m/s. Gravity is 9.8 m/s so can also be approximated to 10 for various guestimates. One atmosphere is 101 kPa but I guess that is actually the same coincidence as the 10m depth thing.)

Ah but if God were truly French the distance from the equator to the pole would be exactly 10 000 000 metres. :)
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Online DanielW

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #121 on: 09/02/2017 06:19 PM »
Not to nitpick, but I can see the IAC as a great time to unveil it, and Elon's statement is vague enough to allow for 
that possibility.

I want to see the spacesuit as much as anyone. But at the IAC I hope Elon does not waste his time on the suit. I want to know as much as possible in as much detail as possible about the future strategy of launch vehicles for Mars and the Mars plans.

Perhaps he won't mention the suit at all but will give the entire presentation while wearing one.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #122 on: 09/03/2017 02:41 AM »
Skipping the physiology and math, a good guideline is you can drop your pressure by half without serious problems. Scuba divers at 33 feet of sea water (2 atm absolute) can ascend to the surface (1 atm) without decompression stops pretty much regardless of how long they've been down.
Poor Americans. In sensible SI units, that is  basically 10m. Either a pure coincidence or evidence that God is actually French  :)

( Another one is speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s, very close to 3.00×108 m/s. Gravity is 9.8 m/s so can also be approximated to 10 for various guestimates. One atmosphere is 101 kPa but I guess that is actually the same coincidence as the 10m depth thing.)
They already cheated enough when they redefined the length of the meter such that the speed of light in a vacuum became a whole number.  With the original standard meter, there was a decimal. 
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #123 on: 09/03/2017 11:47 AM »
Not to nitpick, but I can see the IAC as a great time to unveil it, and Elon's statement is vague enough to allow for 
that possibility.

I want to see the spacesuit as much as anyone. But at the IAC I hope Elon does not waste his time on the suit. I want to know as much as possible in as much detail as possible about the future strategy of launch vehicles for Mars and the Mars plans.

Perhaps he won't mention the suit at all but will give the entire presentation while wearing one.

If the audience is like the last one they'll see the wearing of the suit as a nod to Salvador Dali. Best not to go there.

Offline clongton

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #124 on: 09/03/2017 01:19 PM »
Good grief people. Elon Musk doesn't owe you a damn thing. He will show more of the suit when he is damn good and ready and not before. Which may be next week or never. Suck it up. It's a private company.
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Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #125 on: 09/03/2017 02:53 PM »
Good grief people. Elon Musk doesn't owe you a damn thing. He will show more of the suit when he is damn good and ready and not before. Which may be next week or never. Suck it up. It's a private company.

True -- but if anyone in your life who also doesn't owe you anything keeps promising to show or bring you something "soon" and never delivers, you stop believing them when they promise anything and just greet more promises with a roll of the eyes, rather than potentially profit-generating interest.

When you run a huge company whose business prospects have historically relied on what you are promising to do in the future, consistently failing to deliver on your promises, when you say you will, can get to be more of a problem than just disappointing your fanboys... :(
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #126 on: 09/03/2017 05:19 PM »
Good grief people. Elon Musk doesn't owe you a damn thing. He will show more of the suit when he is damn good and ready and not before. Which may be next week or never. Suck it up. It's a private company.

True -- but if anyone in your life who also doesn't owe you anything keeps promising to show or bring you something "soon" and never delivers, you stop believing them when they promise anything and just greet more promises with a roll of the eyes, rather than potentially profit-generating interest.

When you run a huge company whose business prospects have historically relied on what you are promising to do in the future, consistently failing to deliver on your promises, when you say you will, can get to be more of a problem than just disappointing your fanboys... :(
Hmmm, let's see:
- SpaceX promised to make access to space cheaper than the competition. Check.
- SpaceX promised to make rockets reusable. Check (well, the first stage that is...)
- SpaceX promised NASA that they would fly 20mT to the ISS in 12 CRS missions. Check.
- SpaceX promised they would develop their own flight-suit. Check.
- SpaceX promised MSFC that they would improve PICA to drop it's production cost. Check.
- SpaceX promised they would develop a heavy version of F9. Check.
- SpaceX vowed to break-open the closed NSS market. Check.
- SpaceX promised USAF to have launch facilities on both US coasts. Check.
- SpaceX promised NASA they would do a pad abort test under CCiCAP. Check.

Must I go on?

The only thing you can target SpaceX for is their over-optimistic schedules and timelines. As in WAAAAAAAY over-optimistic.
But then again: almost no big aeronautical project sticks to the original schedule. SLS is already 3 years late. Orion is almost 6 years late now. And the end to those delays is not in sight yet.

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #127 on: 09/03/2017 05:30 PM »
Good grief people. Elon Musk doesn't owe you a damn thing. He will show more of the suit when he is damn good and ready and not before. Which may be next week or never. Suck it up. It's a private company.

True -- but if anyone in your life who also doesn't owe you anything keeps promising to show or bring you something "soon" and never delivers, you stop believing them when they promise anything and just greet more promises with a roll of the eyes, rather than potentially profit-generating interest.

When you run a huge company whose business prospects have historically relied on what you are promising to do in the future, consistently failing to deliver on your promises, when you say you will, can get to be more of a problem than just disappointing your fanboys... :(

Rather than having this turn into version #6,342 of "Elon/SpaceX is the spawn of the devil because they promise too much and don't deliver on time", let me make this observation:

The Orion program posts a press release every time they complete a weld. SLS is having a major event because a contractor made a big steel pipe the same general size/weight as their core module. Boeing unveiled their suit with a live-stream demo in a Starliner mockup, and followed it up with media events up to putting Steven Colbert in the suit. These companies put energy into PR because they think there's a return on it for them. When was the last time SpaceX did anything like that?

Possibilities: (1) SpaceX is already the poster child of New Space, and doesn't feel like they need to go out of their way to get added publicity. (2) Any of these press events take time and energy, not just from the PR people but from the engineers building and testing the hardware. SpaceX feels like they need to concentrate on the engineering and not screw around with PR. (3) (Highly speculative...) Despite Garrett saying the suits are great, there's a problem (either with the suit or with NASA accepting the suit) and there's a chance SpaceX will have to go to David Clark and buy ACES suits (or Boeing suits!), and they don't want to make a big deal about their really cool suits if they're not going to get to use them.

To quote someone earlier, does SpaceX even have a PR department?

Online AncientU

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #128 on: 09/03/2017 05:30 PM »
Most of what SpaceX has delivered is on their own nickle, not the taxpayers'...

Should I mention NASA promising to send mass to LEO for a few hundred dollars per pound, or go to Mars since the 1960s..... nah, better not.
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Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #129 on: 09/04/2017 03:41 AM »
To quote someone earlier, does SpaceX even have a PR department?

I think they have a position called "Communications Director" and it's currently filled, so I guess they do?

Anyway it looks like SpaceX is increasingly following Blue Origin's PR strategy where they only acknowledge something if it's more or less ready, they no longer show stuff in development (like the new fairing). All the news for Dragon 2 development in the past year comes from NASA, Elon showing off the spacesuit is actually the exception. So instead of asking why no more picture, maybe a better question is why did he release that single image in the first place.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #130 on: 09/04/2017 04:21 AM »
They'll release stuff at IAC.
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Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #131 on: 09/04/2017 06:27 AM »
To quote someone earlier, does SpaceX even have a PR department?

I think they have a position called "Communications Director" and it's currently filled, so I guess they do?

Anyway it looks like SpaceX is increasingly following Blue Origin's PR strategy where they only acknowledge something if it's more or less ready, they no longer show stuff in development (like the new fairing). All the news for Dragon 2 development in the past year comes from NASA, Elon showing off the spacesuit is actually the exception. So instead of asking why no more picture, maybe a better question is why did he release that single image in the first place.
Back in the days when SpaceX was still trying to get Falcon 1 (and later) Falcon 9 off the ground they were pretty open about what they were doing. Lotsa "talk" on their website as well as lotsa images.
Not so today.

Reason: back then they were not doing anything new. Falcon-1 type rockets had been developed before by just about everyone else. Same for Falcon-9, version 1.0 that is. Things started changing when SpaceX started doing things that the competition had not done before. A lot less was seen of Falcon 9 v1.1 before it first flew and I can vividly remember the speculation about how those landing legs were deployed (for lack of information via SpaceX).
Their latest "new thing" (other than ITS) is Crew Dragon. Info on that is really sparse compared to what SpaceX gave us during development of Cargo Dragon. The lack of clear info (and images) of the suit is fitting (pun intended) for the current situation.
Don't expect info about the development of ITS to ever reach the levels of what we saw during early Falcon development. Nowadays SpaceX has to keep things under wraps (sort of) due to their competition taking SpaceX for serious (which was not the case back in the days of Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 v1.0).

Offline JamesH65

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #132 on: 09/04/2017 11:20 AM »
I'd like to see a list of these 'promises' that SpaceX have been making.

AFAIK, they say what they are going to try and do.

That does NOT equal a promise.

The number of people claiming they are breaking their promises when they haven't actually promised anything is rather sad. Just live with the times, applaud what they DO achieve, don't complain about what they don't

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #133 on: 09/05/2017 03:30 PM »
Hey, guys -- I admit I was poking at the beehive a bit to see how loud a buzzing sound I could get out of y'all... and got a pretty loud, angry buzzing, indeed.

Please keep in mind, I'm a dedicated SpaceX fanboy myself.  I truly believe in their vision, and I believe in their ability to eventually accomplish their overarching goals.  As I have stated repeatedly -- I still believe.

But I don't go so far as to pretend SpaceX hasn't actually made claims for future efforts, that have reached the level of promises, that have since disappeared into the vapors of engineering problems and other technologies catching up with them.

Just two examples, not even touching on simple over-zealous project scheduling (like FH supposedly flying in 2013):

Red Dragon.  That program progressed to the point that NASA was assigning funds from their Mars exploration program to provide support and possible experiment ride-alongs.  And Red Dragon has just... vanished.  Disappointing some major planetary scientists, not just us fanboys.  I guarantee that these same planetary scientists will have a harder time, now, working up any enthusiasm for ride-along sensors on future proposed SpaceX Mars proposals.

Crew Dragon propulsive landings.  This capability was built into the CCP plan for SpaceX's Crew Dragon, to the point where the development and qualification plan included milestones for its achievement, and in fact the spacecraft itself is specifically built, with the Super Draco engine pods located where they are, to provide this capability.  Granted, NASA had backpedaled to the stance that they were not thinking of using this capability during the CCP contract period, but the eventual development of the capability was not only promised in terms of the CCP qualification plans, it was inherent in the basic design of the capsule.  And it has been removed from future development consideration.  Note, for recovery of time-critical downmass on crew rotation flights, this SpaceX decision will, if the ISS lasts long enough for a follow-on CCP contract, skew such potential ISS downmass recovery requirements over to the land-landing-capable Starliner and, for cargo alone, to Dream Chaser.

So -- no matter what we all hope for SpaceX, and how much we appreciate what they are doing in the ITS and ITSy development programs (which may well be superseding earlier concepts, just as Falcon 9 superseded Falcon 5), let's not put on such debilitating blinders that we can pretend they have never promised the development of programs and capabilities that have later been tossed into the garbage with very little fanfare.  For good, solid financial and engineering reasons, I'm sure -- but still, in the trash can just the same.

That's the context in which tweets like "More to come in the next few days", in re pictures of the operational Dragon suits, seem to be becoming ludicrous -- nothing ever seems to appear in the timeframes mentioned.  In this context, it's just not useful for SpaceX to keep using wording that seems to promise things that experience is showing just aren't going to come.  Not when there are examples, fresh in the minds of both fanboys and industry, of actual programs and capabilities that have recently been axed.

Taken separately, neither is a huge deal.  Looked at in a total context... it's just a touch troubling.  Likely more to us fanboys, but troubling nonetheless.

Ya know, just sayin'... ;)
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline chipguy

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #134 on: 09/05/2017 06:30 PM »
Some folks here seem to think it is a virtue to stick to a plan of record for intermediate steps and course of development even after circumstances and factors change which open better courses of action and more efficient uses of resources toward actual goals and tangible achievements.

There is already enough inflexible dogmatism in the space field getting us nowhere slowly and at great expense. I am glad SpaceX isn't locked into that mindset. Measured and considered pragmatism is how progress is achieved that is still meaningful and useful when it is achieved.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2017 06:33 PM by chipguy »

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #135 on: 09/06/2017 07:13 AM »
This does seem to be going a bit off topic. Can we stick to wild suppositions about the suit, please?

(Speaking as one who is equally guilty)
« Last Edit: 09/06/2017 07:14 AM by Lampyridae »
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Online oiorionsbelt

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #136 on: 09/08/2017 08:19 PM »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #137 on: 09/08/2017 08:26 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYyvO2WA3Ra/
Well, that explains it. They designed the suit so it wouldn't clash with the capsule.

Offline Tuts36

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #138 on: 09/08/2017 08:30 PM »
Still no rear view  ???

Offline obi-wan

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #139 on: 09/08/2017 08:43 PM »
Issues still unanswered by this additional photo:

Donning strategy?
Body seal closure?
Ventilation fittings?
Comm/data fittings?
Glove disconnects?
Helmet disconnect?
Visor open/close and latching mechanisms?
Ability to switch out heavily tinted visor?
Sizing capabilities?
Suit structure? (pressure bladder, restraint layer, outer layer, etc.)
Shape and flexibility when pressurized? (This photo is clearly NOT pressurized.)

This photo doesn't really expand on the previous one, other than showing the legs and boots. Would still like to see pressurized images and videos, as per Boeing's suit reveal.

Offline Kang54

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #140 on: 09/08/2017 08:54 PM »
Issues still unanswered by this additional photo:

Donning strategy?
There's a zipper down the inside leg. Someone on reddit mentioned it being entered through the crotch, and the zipper going down the other leg as well.

Offline ejb749

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #141 on: 09/08/2017 09:49 PM »
I bet it ends up looking more like this.

Offline Jcc

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #142 on: 09/08/2017 11:04 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYyvO2WA3Ra/

God that is one heck of a Photoshop hack job... :o Definitely not the usual level of quality found in publicly available SpaceX renders. White balances are screwed up, lighting sources are all different for the background/Dragon/suit, Dragon 2 render looks disproportionately low res and appears to be sitting on an infinite, black void. Weird.

Am I crazy or is anyone else seeing this?

The expansion joint in the floor is fuzzed out. The black enclosure at the bottom of the capsule probably doesn't exist, it is to cover the legs that won't exist in the flight version. So the suit was pasted in as well.

Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #143 on: 09/09/2017 03:41 AM »
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYyvO2WA3Ra/

God that is one heck of a Photoshop hack job... :o Definitely not the usual level of quality found in publicly available SpaceX renders. White balances are screwed up, lighting sources are all different for the background/Dragon/suit, Dragon 2 render looks disproportionately low res and appears to be sitting on an infinite, black void. Weird.

Am I crazy or is anyone else seeing this?

Almost as if there's a light source trained directly on the object being photographed.  What are the odds?
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Offline electric

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #144 on: 09/09/2017 03:30 PM »
Does anyone have an idea what that big thing on the right is?

Offline nacnud

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #145 on: 09/09/2017 03:32 PM »
Looks like a falcon first stage with the cable run exposed, same as on the left.

Offline djuretic

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #146 on: 09/09/2017 03:37 PM »
Hello, edit in phone lightroom, discovered more details...

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk


Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #147 on: 09/09/2017 08:25 PM »
On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

It was SUPER cool to be on the factory floor, hanging out where they were putting together the rockets. There was so much to look at and see, most of which I didn't understand. We were working mostly, so I didn't get a chance to bother our Space X liason (another friend of mine, a media guy who I also know from the photography world) with a ton of questions.

At one point they used one of the cranes (which are on tracks in the ceiling) to lift some sort of cover for a satellite(?) into place near where we were shooting. They also pressurized one of the rockets and a bunch of guys seemed to be working on identifying / patching leaks?

Also, they had some sort of capsule suspended in the air near the lunch area, on display. Idk what it was exactly, but it looked like it had definitely re-entered the atmosphere at some point. Maybe somebody who knows more about Space X than me would know what it was. Anyway, it looked super frakking cool and I really wanted to take a photo of it with my phone, but alas, when I asked for permission, I was shut down again. No photos allowed of any kind, anywhere. We were watched by security the whole day and had to be escorted to the restrooms and cafeteria.

That's about all I've got. It was a *really* cool day at work for me, as far as working on a photo shoot goes.


https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dms0zix
Quote
1. There wasn’t a whole lot of moving going on, since we were just shooting photos of him standing and posed. But I’d imagine the suit was pretty easy to move around in. He definitely didn’t have any issues sitting down or anything like that. It’s a fairly form-fitting suit, also.

2. Good question! I’m pretty sure the visor just lifts up... I feel like I definitely would have noticed had it retracted into the helmet. Yeah. Definitely a lift up and lock down situation.

3. Didn’t see him! They have this cool aquarium-style glass box of offices in the middle of the warehouse I was in, maybe 4 levels high. I’d imagine if we was around at all it would have been in one of those offices above the factory floor. Then again, Space X is huge.

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dms0of7

Quote
Shoot was on 8/29 !

And it seems somebody caught the preparations for the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6w0p5n/dragon_being_dropped_off_at_hawthorne_today/


« Last Edit: 09/09/2017 08:47 PM by jpo234 »

Offline llanitedave

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #148 on: 09/10/2017 09:25 AM »
I'm wondering why the visor needs to be so dark if the suit is just to be worn inside the capsule.
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Online meekGee

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #149 on: 09/10/2017 09:30 AM »
I'm wondering why the visor needs to be so dark if the suit is just to be worn inside the capsule.
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Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #150 on: 09/10/2017 03:02 PM »


Apologies for the half-off-topic post, but I don't recall seeing the style of suit seriously proposed by anyone. It's clearly based off the existing underwater suits of a similar style.
Is this just a photoshop of an underwater suit, or is this actually being proposed by someone.

Ah - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_suit#/media/File:AX-5-spacesuit.jpg
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/pressure-suit-ax-5

Seemingly not remotely current - 1980s.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2017 03:07 PM by speedevil »

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #151 on: 09/10/2017 03:30 PM »

Comparing a flight and Eva suit isn't really fair.  :)

Assuming that the flight suit will probably form the basis of SpaceX's Mars suit, it'll be interesting to see how slimline they can keep it with added cooling, radiation shielding and general ruggedness.

Offline meberbs

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #152 on: 09/10/2017 03:33 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYyvO2WA3Ra/

God that is one heck of a Photoshop hack job... :o Definitely not the usual level of quality found in publicly available SpaceX renders. White balances are screwed up, lighting sources are all different for the background/Dragon/suit, Dragon 2 render looks disproportionately low res and appears to be sitting on an infinite, black void. Weird.

Am I crazy or is anyone else seeing this?

Almost as if there's a light source trained directly on the object being photographed.  What are the odds?

It's pretty clearly not a photograph.
You might need your eyes checked. There is nothing low res about the dragon, but the outside is plain and smooth with light trained on it in a direction that doesn't create much shadow, so not many features to see. The "infinite void" is just some matte black material hiding the legs, and obviously they didn't go put extra lights in the background to highlight the cores. Also, see the reddit post above from one of the people who tool the photo.

Online AncientU

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #153 on: 09/10/2017 10:10 PM »

Comparing a flight and Eva suit isn't really fair.  :)

Assuming that the flight suit will probably form the basis of SpaceX's Mars suit, it'll be interesting to see how slimline they can keep it with added cooling, radiation shielding and general ruggedness.

Will be interesting to see if the Mars surface suit needs cooling, or if the Mars atmosphere is sufficient to remove most heat naturally.  Would think you might even need to heat the Mars suit at night...  Don't expect there to be any radiation shielding at all.  More ruggedness would be called for depending on the tasking of the worker in the suit... heavy work would require heavier protections on the suit... light work might be fine in this suit or similar.
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Offline tdperk

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #154 on: 09/10/2017 11:58 PM »


Apologies for the half-off-topic post, but I don't recall seeing the style of suit seriously proposed by anyone. It's clearly based off the existing underwater suits of a similar style.
Is this just a photoshop of an underwater suit, or is this actually being proposed by someone.

Ah - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_suit#/media/File:AX-5-spacesuit.jpg
https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/pressure-suit-ax-5

Seemingly not remotely current - 1980s.

Since when?  Since the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man was the punchline of  joke.

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #155 on: 09/11/2017 06:20 AM »
I bet it ends up looking more like this.
No. NASA didn't issue a high-visibility requirement given that it isn't needed for CCP. The astro's will stay in the capsule until they are ready to be picked up by either boat or helo.
Shuttle was different. After Challenger a mid-air bail-out procedure (usually over water) was developed. The suits for shuttle astronauts had to be high-visibility to aid in SAR efforts.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #156 on: 09/11/2017 07:23 AM »
I bet it ends up looking more like this.
No. NASA didn't issue a high-visibility requirement given that it isn't needed for CCP. The astro's will stay in the capsule until they are ready to be picked up by either boat or helo.
Shuttle was different. After Challenger a mid-air bail-out procedure (usually over water) was developed. The suits for shuttle astronauts had to be high-visibility to aid in SAR efforts.

Musk should use a florescent scarlet & gold colour scheme model on the Iron Man suit.  ;D A gold helmet visor seems a given. There is some little movies with "Infinity" in their titles  opening when these suits get a practical check out.


Offline NX-0

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #157 on: 09/11/2017 06:41 PM »
I bet it ends up looking more like this.
No. NASA didn't issue a high-visibility requirement given that it isn't needed for CCP. The astro's will stay in the capsule until they are ready to be picked up by either boat or helo.
Shuttle was different. After Challenger a mid-air bail-out procedure (usually over water) was developed. The suits for shuttle astronauts had to be high-visibility to aid in SAR efforts.
If there were no requirements, then perhaps there will be several colors to choose from. Perhaps the color could designate rank or a particular MOS.
That said, I'd suggest avoiding the red one.

LL&P

Offline woods170

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #158 on: 09/11/2017 07:16 PM »

If there were no requirements, then perhaps there will be several colors to choose from. Perhaps the color could designate rank or a particular MOS.
That said, I'd suggest avoiding the red one.

LL&P
Ranks? Seriously?
How about one rank: passenger.
This isn't shuttle where you have a commander and a pilot. Crew Dragon is fully automatic all the way to being docked to the ISS. The astronauts are basically glorified passengers aboard Crew Dragon. The instrument panel is there primarily for information purposes. It only provides rudimentary back-up semi-manual control in the unlikely situation that the full-auto mode malfunctions.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #159 on: 09/11/2017 09:20 PM »

If there were no requirements, then perhaps there will be several colors to choose from. Perhaps the color could designate rank or a particular MOS.
That said, I'd suggest avoiding the red one.

LL&P
Ranks? Seriously?

I think someone missed the joke. See the last line and signature. Note, as well, the forum name of the poster you're quoting. That might help.
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Offline mlow

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #160 on: 09/12/2017 02:08 AM »
On a more serious note, it was mentioned by Shotwell that there are in fact multiple colors of suits to choose from.

Online docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #161 on: 09/12/2017 02:19 AM »
Please, no critical crew members in red!

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #162 on: 09/12/2017 10:40 AM »
Please, no critical crew members in red!

Depends if you think the uniform colour schemes from ST:TOS have more weight than the uniform colour scheme from ST:TNG where one J L Picard was a red shirt! :P

Offline TripD

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #163 on: 09/12/2017 10:31 PM »
Comparing the two images I have seen of the helmet,  I have to say that the one on the right just looks like a mock-up.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #164 on: 09/13/2017 01:20 AM »
I think you're right. Photographer crewman said the one on the right was a jumpsuit.
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Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #165 on: 09/13/2017 04:39 AM »
Comparing the two images I have seen of the helmet,  I have to say that the one on the right just looks like a mock-up.

The one on the right is created by the artist Wojciech Michalski based on the old leaked photo of the suit, not an official SpaceX release:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?198191-Wojciech-Michalski-SketchBook/page7&p=1209848&infinite=1#post1209848

Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #166 on: 09/13/2017 06:34 AM »
I think you're right. Photographer crewman said the one on the right was a jumpsuit.

Jumpsuit as in "a one-piece garment with sleeves and legs and typically without integral coverings for feet, hands or head". It was a description of the design, not an implication that it was just a mock up.

And just to dive deeper into the Wikipedia rabbit hole, here is what it says about flight suit: "Its appearance is usually similar to a jumpsuit."
« Last Edit: 09/13/2017 06:39 AM by jpo234 »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #167 on: 09/13/2017 08:13 AM »
I think you're right. Photographer crewman said the one on the right was a jumpsuit.

Jumpsuit as in "a one-piece garment with sleeves and legs and typically without integral coverings for feet, hands or head". It was a description of the design, not an implication that it was just a mock up.

And just to dive deeper into the Wikipedia rabbit hole, here is what it says about flight suit: "Its appearance is usually similar to a jumpsuit."
Youve mostly convinced me.
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #168 on: 09/13/2017 04:23 PM »
Anyone have any idea how the helmet comes off?

Also can the visor be open separately?

Offline meberbs

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #169 on: 09/13/2017 04:44 PM »
Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

Offline litton4

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #170 on: 09/13/2017 06:56 PM »
Comparing the two images I have seen of the helmet,  I have to say that the one on the right just looks like a mock-up.


I'm reminded of this......

« Last Edit: 09/13/2017 06:57 PM by litton4 »
Dave Condliffe

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #171 on: 09/17/2017 02:35 AM »
Quote
I'm reminded of this......

That is iconic.  On the other hand, I made a first attempt at modeling it and as I blundered along I was reminded more of a toilet seat than a helmet.  I needs more references!

Offline cferreir

Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #172 on: 09/18/2017 11:05 PM »
Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #173 on: 09/18/2017 11:25 PM »
Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.

SpaceX by now has had to complete a couple milestones for suit integration that would require those connections if I remember right. Therefore if this is a flight model they would have to be low profile or somehow hidden in the pictures.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #174 on: 09/19/2017 12:22 AM »
From reports, the space suit photo shoot lasted most of a day, so there are many pictures we haven't seen yet. This is just a tease.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #175 on: 09/19/2017 12:57 AM »
From reports, the space suit photo shoot lasted most of a day, so there are many pictures we haven't seen yet. This is just a tease.

Which photo-shoot, and which suit?

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #176 on: 09/19/2017 04:58 AM »
From reports, the space suit photo shoot lasted most of a day, so there are many pictures we haven't seen yet. This is just a tease.

Which photo-shoot, and which suit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou
DM

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #177 on: 09/19/2017 06:05 AM »
Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.
"All" the connectors? If you take a good hard look at the Boeing suit you will notice exactly two connectors. One for air and one for comms. The latter is, from most views, pretty much hidden behind the left arm.
What you failed to notice is that the Boeing suit is a fine example of functionality-over-looks. The SpaceX suit is different. It quite literally has looks-over-functionality in the sense that the cool-looking exterior is a shell over the actual pressure-suit. The connectors for the SpaceX suit are mounted on the actual pressure suit and are covered by a flap that is part of the exterior shell. You don't design a slick looking exterior with fancy helmet-to-match and than have that whole picture ruined by two connectors sticking out.
Stop thinking the NASA/Boeing way and start thinking the Elon way.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #178 on: 09/19/2017 02:34 PM »
The traditional approach doesn't seem to be functionality over looks as much as no consideration of looks at all beyond things like color or putting a logo patch on it.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #179 on: 09/19/2017 02:48 PM »
Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.
"All" the connectors? If you take a good hard look at the Boeing suit you will notice exactly two connectors. One for air and one for comms. The latter is, from most views, pretty much hidden behind the left arm.
What you failed to notice is that the Boeing suit is a fine example of functionality-over-looks. The SpaceX suit is different. It quite literally has looks-over-functionality in the sense that the cool-looking exterior is a shell over the actual pressure-suit. The connectors for the SpaceX suit are mounted on the actual pressure suit and are covered by a flap that is part of the exterior shell. You don't design a slick looking exterior with fancy helmet-to-match and than have that whole picture ruined by two connectors sticking out.
Stop thinking the NASA/Boeing way and start thinking the Elon way.

Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #180 on: 09/19/2017 02:54 PM »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #181 on: 09/19/2017 07:02 PM »
Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.
"All" the connectors? If you take a good hard look at the Boeing suit you will notice exactly two connectors. One for air and one for comms. The latter is, from most views, pretty much hidden behind the left arm.
What you failed to notice is that the Boeing suit is a fine example of functionality-over-looks. The SpaceX suit is different. It quite literally has looks-over-functionality in the sense that the cool-looking exterior is a shell over the actual pressure-suit. The connectors for the SpaceX suit are mounted on the actual pressure suit and are covered by a flap that is part of the exterior shell. You don't design a slick looking exterior with fancy helmet-to-match and than have that whole picture ruined by two connectors sticking out.
Stop thinking the NASA/Boeing way and start thinking the Elon way.

Can I ask where you got the information that this is an outer shell over the pressure suit? It makes no sense to add a separate outer layer to a launch and entry suit - that would just complicate and extend the length of time required for ingress. Similarly, having to suit up and hook up to life support in an emergency (such as cabin depressurization) would be complicated by having to search for the umbilical connectors under a flap or within a pocket. To say nothing of the fact that the photos are of a fairly tight-fitting suit, and there is no indication of bumps or lumps under the surface showing connectors, body seal closures, wrist disconnects, helmet disconnect, etc.

Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #182 on: 09/19/2017 07:28 PM »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #183 on: 09/19/2017 07:47 PM »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.

The problem with wireless communications will be the power supply. Batteries would work, but flight suits usually don't have their own power.

If adding batteries isn't a problem, you still want a wired connection if the wireless or batteries fail. Space is hard, so backup systems are needed.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #184 on: 09/19/2017 07:55 PM »
Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

I kind of get this.

However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, and Jason Tenenbaum.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 08:02 PM by jpo234 »

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #185 on: 09/19/2017 08:00 PM »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.

The problem with wireless communications will be the power supply. Batteries would work, but flight suits usually don't have their own power.

If adding batteries isn't a problem, you still want a wired connection if the wireless or batteries fail. Space is hard, so backup systems are needed.

Wired connections have as many failure modes as wireless... maybe more. 
Flight suits 'usually' ... need not apply.
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #186 on: 09/19/2017 08:07 PM »
Maybe we should wait for some information about how the SpaceX suit actually works (and even see a picture of the whole thing) before we get too involved with deciding whether or not it's a good design.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #187 on: 09/19/2017 08:20 PM »
Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

I kind of get this.

However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman,Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.


No question that the suit has "passed NASA acceptance milestones" (which could include early design reviews), but do we in fact know that either the SpaceX or Boeing suits have been accepted by NASA as acceptable for flight operations? (In other words, finished and ready for flight rather than okay as a work in progress?)

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #188 on: 09/19/2017 09:02 PM »
... (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) ...
However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.
Thanks for that video. Ms McCormick strikes me as:
1. Incredibly intelligent and well versed in the issues of space suit design.
2. Definitely not just "some intern."
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 10:10 PM by gongora »
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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #189 on: 09/19/2017 09:09 PM »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.

The problem with wireless communications will be the power supply. Batteries would work, but flight suits usually don't have their own power.

If adding batteries isn't a problem, you still want a wired connection if the wireless or batteries fail. Space is hard, so backup systems are needed.

Wired connections have as many failure modes as wireless... maybe more. 
Flight suits 'usually' ... need not apply.

Wireless has more failure modes than wired. It just does. A wireless connection has everything a wired connection has, but then add antennas, independant power and additional protocols on top of it.

I can't imagine that a life safety system would be completely wireless and wired is an option. There might be some wireless going on, but there is a wired backup and wired power almost definitely.

I don't build space systems, but I design communications systems and sometimes in life safety situations and it takes way more effort and produces more failure modes to use wireless over wired in every application I've ever heard of.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #190 on: 09/19/2017 09:53 PM »
Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) A launch and entry suit is a piece of life support equipment. It shouldn't be "form over function" or "function over form" - it should be "function." There's a place for esthetics after the functionality is maximized, but any sacrifice of functionality in favor of esthetics is just plain bad engineering.

I kind of get this.

However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman,Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.


No question that the suit has "passed NASA acceptance milestones" (which could include early design reviews), but do we in fact know that either the SpaceX or Boeing suits have been accepted by NASA as acceptable for flight operations? (In other words, finished and ready for flight rather than okay as a work in progress?)

According to the SpaceX CCtCAP Milestones thread, Space Suit Qualification Testing was completed in November 2016. See point 12 in the linked post to see the requirements for acceptance.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 09:55 PM by jpo234 »

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #191 on: 09/19/2017 10:05 PM »
... (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) ...
However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.
Thanks for that video. Ms McCormick strikes me as:
1. Incredibly intelligent and well versed in the issues of space suit design.
2. Definitely not just "some intern."

At the time of the video she was with Orbital Outfitters, but she is now Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2017 10:11 PM by gongora »

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #192 on: 09/20/2017 06:31 AM »
Just curious, why a connector for comms?  Aren't we a bit past that technology-wise?

I would not want to rely on wireless for short-range comms.  Better a hardline to avoid interference from the long range comms and any RF noise in the cabin.  Too many things that could go wrong just to have one less connector.

Being that there will already be a connector for air, I'd make that an umbilical that carries both air and comms through one connection.

Considering mobility of say seven passengers on Dragon 2 (many more on ITSy) -- with derivatives of this suit supporting surface operations -- hard wiring isn't viable.  Only works when everyone is nicely seated...

I suspect wifi communications and high bandwidth connectivity will be standard on SpaceX spacecraft and future system advancements.  We should plan to see high tech/modern communications and connectivity throughout their systems.
A few notes:
- The current suit won't be used on ITS(y).
- Flight up-and-down to ISS on Crew Dragon requires wearing of the pressure suit ONLY during ascent and descent. During those phases the crew is strapped in their seats and hooked up to ECLSS and comms via hardlines. Thus: no real need for wireless comms capability for this particular version of the flight suit.

I agree with you that suits for EVA operations (surface-bound or otherwise) will have wireless comms. But the current suit is for IVA only, mostly seated.

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #193 on: 09/20/2017 06:59 AM »
Can I ask where you got the information that this is an outer shell over the pressure suit? It makes no sense to add a separate outer layer to a launch and entry suit - that would just complicate and extend the length of time required for ingress. Similarly, having to suit up and hook up to life support in an emergency (such as cabin depressurization) would be complicated by having to search for the umbilical connectors under a flap or within a pocket. To say nothing of the fact that the photos are of a fairly tight-fitting suit, and there is no indication of bumps or lumps under the surface showing connectors, body seal closures, wrist disconnects, helmet disconnect, etc.

NASA set specific requirements with regards to ECLSS and the pressurized flight-suit. Both CCP providers, Boeing and SpaceX, will have to meet those requirements to get certified.
But, until now pressure-suits were all-functional. No attention to esthetics whatsoever. That has already changed with the Boeing Blue suit. Boeing has gone to some lengths to make their Blue suit look "great" as well as meeting NASA's requirements. So, functionality AND esthetics. And I have to give them credit: the Boeing Blue suit looks a helluvalot better than say the Soyuz Sokol suit.
SpaceX has taken this approach MUCH further. The visible exterior of their IVA suit is NOT the outside of the pressure-suit. It is an extra layer over the actual pressure-bearing suit, purely for esthetics. The helmet is a great example of functionality AND esthetics.
So yes, the SpaceX suit is designed to meet all the requirements that NASA has set for CCP pressure suits, as well as looking as something from a SF movie.

With regards to donning the suit during an emergency: both suits (Boeing and SpaceX) have to meet requirements set by NASA. Why do you think Elon commented that it was incredibly hard to make a functioning pressure suit that looks "bad-ass" at the same time.
Note: despite the SpaceX suit having an exterior shell for esthetics it is worth noting that this exterior shell is a fixed part of the complete suit. It is not donned separately.

With regards to disconnects: have you taken a good look at the Boeing suit? That is all zippered, except for the gloves. Those have traditional wrist disconnects. And it is rather tight-fitting as well when depressurized, and not "bulky" at all when pressurized: Stop thinking Apollo and ACES, start thinking 21st century.
You will also note that the connectors don't actually stick out of the Boeing Blue suit. The only thing that does stick out is the pressure-control-valve assembly. Well, the SpaceX suit is much the same. Connectors are mounted almost flush on the pressure-bearing shell of the suit with the entry into the suit zippered.
And yes, NASA requirements for donning the pressure suits in an emergency do allow time for opening a velcro flap and then sticking in the connectors.

Can I say (again) that it really perturbs me to see (again) the assumption that clearly everyone who has ever done pressure suit work over the last 60 years has been a total idiot, and only Elon could figure out how to do it "right"? (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".)
Here's a little fact from history: When ILC was awarded the contract to construct the Apollo space suits in the 1960's it had exactly ZERO experience in constructing space suits.
Assuming that a bunch of interns at SpaceX are any less capable than ILC back then is ludicrous.
« Last Edit: 09/20/2017 08:05 PM by woods170 »

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #194 on: 09/20/2017 08:21 AM »

If there were no requirements, then perhaps there will be several colors to choose from. Perhaps the color could designate rank or a particular MOS.
That said, I'd suggest avoiding the red one.

LL&P
Ranks? Seriously?

I think someone missed the joke. See the last line and signature. Note, as well, the forum name of the poster you're quoting. That might help.

According to The Next Generation, gold shirts are even more hazardous to health since main characters can get killed off.

Also can the visor be open separately?
I believe the answer is yes based on the below statement:

On reddit is a post from somebody who (claims to have) participated in the photo shoot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/6yxovo/elon_musk_shares_first_fullbody_photo_of_spacexs/dmrabou

Quote
Well, I'm flattered! But I'm not sure how much I can tell you – surely it wouldn't be worth an entire AMA.

But let's see... the new space suit was definitely a jump suit, and definitely didn't let any air in. The man inside (he wore the thing for like 8 hours straight while we were shooting + lighting, no joke) needed the visor to be lifted after about every 5-10 shots so he could breathe. We had someone with a large ventilation tube on standby, to sort of shoot cool air into his face while we were going over the shots, adjusting his positioning, lighting, etc.

So where are all the connectors for air and comms? The Boeing suit showed them. Why weren't the photographers using those connectors??? Seems like the SpaceX suit has a longer way to go.
"All" the connectors? If you take a good hard look at the Boeing suit you will notice exactly two connectors. One for air and one for comms. The latter is, from most views, pretty much hidden behind the left arm.
What you failed to notice is that the Boeing suit is a fine example of functionality-over-looks. The SpaceX suit is different. It quite literally has looks-over-functionality in the sense that the cool-looking exterior is a shell over the actual pressure-suit. The connectors for the SpaceX suit are mounted on the actual pressure suit and are covered by a flap that is part of the exterior shell. You don't design a slick looking exterior with fancy helmet-to-match and than have that whole picture ruined by two connectors sticking out.
Stop thinking the NASA/Boeing way and start thinking the Elon way.

Pretty much this. The interior of the Dragon 2 is all touch-screens and Iron Man cool. I was skeptical about touch screens but then when you think about it, one of the advantages of touch screens and IVA gloves is that you wouldn't need to jam a pressurised glove finger into a switch in an emergency.

The suits are also part of the advertising for the company, and has a halo effect that goes beyond SpaceX: Tesla and the other companies indirectly benefit from SpaceX's success since they are connected through Elon Musk.

There's also probably a zillion little things we don't notice about the suit but that really matter to the people w; like the Sokol gets clammy like the inside of a rubber glove after being worn for a few hours. Improved nappy. etc.
SKYLON... The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen's preferred surface-to-orbit conveyance.

Offline TripD

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #195 on: 09/23/2017 06:16 AM »
Maybe we should wait .......

Heh.... waiting is for flatlanders.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #196 on: 09/24/2017 01:37 AM »
... (Especially since a friend at SpaceX told me the process was pretty much picking a few interns at random and saying, "you're our space suit experts now - go design one, and it has to be kick-ass looking".) ...
However, since the suit already passed NASAs acceptance milestones, it is obviously functional. Additionally, the people we know were involved with the spacesuit are not interns: Garrett Reisman, Molly McCormick and Jason Tenenbaum.
Thanks for that video. Ms McCormick strikes me as:
1. Incredibly intelligent and well versed in the issues of space suit design.
2. Definitely not just "some intern."

At the time of the video she was with Orbital Outfitters, but she is now Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.
Funny how that works... 🤔
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline jpo234

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Re: SpaceX Spacesuit Revealed
« Reply #197 on: 09/24/2017 11:07 AM »

At the time of the video she was with Orbital Outfitters, but she is now Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.

Seems she got promoted to Sr. Human Factors Engineer at SpaceX.
« Last Edit: 09/24/2017 11:07 AM by jpo234 »

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