Author Topic: National Space Council Reestablished  (Read 17814 times)

Offline RonM

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National Space Council Reestablished
« on: 06/30/2017 10:23 PM »
President Trump has signed an executive order reestablishing the National Space Council.

Quote from: Acting NASA Administrator Robert Lightfoot
I am pleased that President Trump has signed an executive order reestablishing the National Space Council. The council existed previously from 1989-1993, and a version of it also existed as the National Aeronautics and Space Council from 1958-1973. As such, the council has guided NASA from our earliest days and can help us achieve the many ambitious milestones we are striving for today.

“This high-level group advises the president and comprises the leaders of government agencies with a stake in space, including the NASA administrator, the Secretaries of State, Commerce, Defense, and others, and will be chaired by Vice President Mike Pence. It will help ensure that all aspects of the nation’s space power -- national security, commerce, international relations, exploration, and science, are coordinated and aligned to best serve the American people.  A Users’ Advisory Group also will be convened so that the interests of industries and other non-federal entities are represented.

“The establishment of the council is another demonstration of the Trump Administration’s deep interest in our work, and a testament to the importance of space exploration to our economy, our nation, and the planet as a whole.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-statement-on-national-space-council

Online oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #1 on: 07/01/2017 12:09 AM »
The question becomes just what the result of space policy that this body develops and how heavily it will lean toward the indicated possible preference for public/private partnerships?

Online Eric Hedman

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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #3 on: 07/01/2017 03:11 AM »
Bloomberg article:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-30/trump-revives-1960s-era-space-council-as-private-players-emerge

Space exploration is not only essential to our character as a nation but our economy and our great nation’s security,” Trump said Friday at a White House signing ceremony, adding, “I think privatization of certain aspects is going to play an important role.

I don't think "space exploration" is as essential as "entrepreneurship", especially when our government is doing space exploration nowadays, so I would hope that a more substantial role by the private sector is taken into account with future initiatives.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #4 on: 07/01/2017 04:01 AM »
Video of the announcement:




Offline su27k

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #5 on: 07/01/2017 05:31 AM »
No space for new space at Trump’s space council rollout

Quote
The primary advocate for new space companies, the Commercial Spaceflight Federation, was not invited to the event on Friday. SpaceX's Elon Musk and Blue Origin's Jeff Bezos were asked to attend, but neither could make the event on short notice. One official involved in the new space community told Ars, "If you were not with Alabama or SLS, you weren't getting into the event today. They didn't want any commercial space there." Alabama is the home state of the Marshall Space Flight Center, which manages development of the SLS rocket.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #6 on: 07/01/2017 06:19 AM »
Quote
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate ReleaseJune 30, 2017
Presidential Executive Order on Reviving the National Space Council

EXECUTIVE ORDER

- - - - - - -

REVIVING THE NATIONAL SPACE COUNCIL

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and in order to provide a coordinated process for developing and monitoring the implementation of national space policy and strategy, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. The National Space Council (Council) was established by Title V of Public Law 100-685 and Executive Order 12675 of April 20, 1989 (Establishing the National Space Council). The Council was tasked with advising and assisting the President regarding national space policy and strategy. The Council was never formally disestablished, but it effectively ceased operation in 1993. This order revives the Council and provides additional details regarding its duties and responsibilities.

Sec. 2. Revival and Composition of the National Space Council. (a) The Council is hereby revived and shall resume operations.

(b) The Council shall be composed of the following members:

(i) The Vice President, who shall be Chair of the Council;

(ii) The Secretary of State;

(iii) The Secretary of Defense;

(iv) The Secretary of Commerce;

(v) The Secretary of Transportation;

(vi) The Secretary of Homeland Security;

(vii) The Director of National Intelligence;

(viii) The Director of the Office of Management and Budget;

(ix) The Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs;

(x) The Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration;

(xi) The Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy;

(xii) The Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism;

(xiii) The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and

(xiv) The heads of other executive departments and agencies (agencies) and other senior officials within the Executive Office of the President, as determined by the Chair.

Sec. 3. Functions of the Council. (a) The Council shall advise and assist the President regarding national space policy and strategy, and perform such other duties as the President may, from time to time, prescribe.

(b) In particular, the Council is directed to:

(i) review United States Government space policy, including long-range goals, and develop a strategy for national space activities;

(ii) develop recommendations for the President on space policy and space-related issues;

(iii) monitor and coordinate implementation of the objectives of the President's national space policy and strategy;

(iv) foster close coordination, cooperation, and technology and information exchange among the civil, national security, and commercial space sectors;

(v) advise on participation in international space activities conducted by the United States Government; and

(vi) facilitate the resolution of differences concerning major space and space-related policy matters.

(c)  The Council shall meet at least annually.
 
(d)  The revival and operation of the Council shall not interfere with the existing lines of authority in or responsibilities of any agencies.
 
(e)  The Council shall have a staff, headed by a civilian Executive Secretary appointed by the President.
 
Sec. 4.  Responsibilities of the Chair.  (a)  The Chair shall serve as the President's principal advisor on national space policy and strategy.
 
(b)  The Chair shall, in consultation with the members of the Council, establish procedures for the Council and establish the agenda for Council activities.
 
(c)  The Chair shall report to the President quarterly on the Council's activities and recommendations.  The Chair shall advise the Council, as appropriate, regarding the President's directions with respect to the Council's activities and national space policy and strategy.
(d)  The Chair may recommend to the President candidates for the position of Executive Secretary.
 
(e)  The Chair, or upon the Chair's direction, the Executive Secretary, may invite the heads of other agencies, other senior officials in the Executive Office of the President, or other Federal employees to participate in Council meetings.
 
(f)  The Chair shall authorize the establishment of committees of the Council, including an executive committee, and of working groups, composed of senior designees of the Council members and of other Federal officials invited to participate in Council meetings, as he deems necessary or appropriate for the efficient conduct of Council functions.
 
Sec. 5.  National Space Policy and Strategy Planning Process.  (a)  Each agency represented on the Council shall provide such information to the Chair regarding its current and planned space activities as the Chair shall request.
 
(b)  The head of each agency that conducts space related activities shall, to the extent permitted by law, conform such activities to the President's national space policy and strategy.
 
(c)  On space policy and strategy matters relating primarily to national security, the Council shall coordinate with the National Security Council (NSC) to create policies and procedures for the Council that respect the responsibilities and authorities of the NSC under existing law.
 
Sec. 6.  Users' Advisory Group.  (a)  The Council shall convene a Users' Advisory Group (Group) pursuant to Public Law 101-611, section 121, composed of non-Federal representatives of industries and other persons involved in aeronautical and space activities.
 
(b)  Members of the Group shall serve without any compensation for their work for the Group.  Members of the Group, while engaged in the work of the Group, may be allowed travel expenses, including per diem in lieu of subsistence, to the extent permitted by law for persons serving intermittently in Government service (5 U.S.C. 5701-5707), consistent with the availability of funds. 
 
(c)  The Group shall report directly to the Council and shall provide advice or work product solely to the Council.
 
Sec. 7.  Administrative Provisions.  (a)  To aid in the performance of the functions of the Council:

(i) The Office of Administration in the Executive Office of the President shall provide the Council with administrative support on a reimbursable basis; and

(ii) Legal advice to the Council itself with respect to its work and functions shall be provided exclusively by the Office of the Counsel to the President.

(b)  To the extent practicable and permitted by law, including the Economy Act, and within existing appropriations, agencies serving on the Council and interagency councils and committees that affect space policy or strategy shall make resources, including, but not limited to, personnel, office support, and printing, available to the Council as reasonably requested by the Chair or, upon the Chair's direction, the Executive Secretary.
 
(c)  Agencies shall cooperate with the Council and provide such information and advice to the Council as it may reasonably request, to the extent permitted by law.
 
Sec. 8.  Report.  Within 1 year of the date of this order, and annually thereafter, the Council shall submit a report to the President setting forth its assessment of, and recommendations for, the space policy and strategy of the United States Government.
 
Sec. 9.  General Provisions.  (a)  This order supersedes Executive Order 12675 of April 20, 1989 (Establishing the National Space Council).  To the extent this order is inconsistent with any provision of any earlier Executive Order or Presidential Memorandum, this order shall control.
 
(b)  If any provision of this order or the application of such provision is held to be invalid, the remainder of this order and other dissimilar applications of such provision shall not be affected.
 
(c)  This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.
 
(d)  Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(e) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

DONALD J. TRUMP

THE WHITE HOUSE,
June 30, 2017.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/06/30/presidential-executive-order-reviving-national-space-council

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #7 on: 07/01/2017 03:44 PM »
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate ReleaseJune 30, 2017
Presidential Executive Order on Reviving the National Space Council

...

Sec. 2. Revival and Composition of the National Space Council. (a) The Council is hereby revived and shall resume operations.

(b) The Council shall be composed of the following members:

(i) The Vice President, who shall be Chair of the Council;

(ii) The Secretary of State;

The Secretary of State? Besides having no time to attend because of, you know, real problems around the world that need his attention, this makes me think that the NSC may be envisioned to do things that will cause great attention around the world.

Quote
(iii) The Secretary of Defense;

OK, this officially means that the NSC is not just focused on the peaceful use of space, which is NASA's bailiwick.

Quote
(iv) The Secretary of Commerce;

(v) The Secretary of Transportation;

(vi) The Secretary of Homeland Security;

Seriously, are they planning on setting up TSA at spaceports? Will my Global Entry card be good enough for re-entry to the U.S., or will I need my passport?

Quote
(vii) The Director of National Intelligence;

No clue. Yes, I could have said something like "Are they expecting to find intelligent life in space?", but I think it's pretty obvious this person will be too busy to stop by this little confab to chat about things he's not worried about. Maybe they'll send someone to make sure no one is going to propose something that will bump into any of their "assets" in space?

Quote
(viii) The Director of the Office of Management and Budget;

OMB Directors suck the life out of any rooms they are in. It's their job to say "NO!!!!". Which is a pretty clear signal that no proposal is ever going to see the light of day from this group of "out of the box" thinkers.

Quote
(ix) The Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs;

(x) The Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration;

Oh good, NASA does get a seat at the far end of the table. And here I was worried...

I'll skip down to one other important point.

Quote
(c)  The Council shall meet at least annually.

And

Quote
Sec. 8.  Report.  Within 1 year of the date of this order, and annually thereafter, the Council shall submit a report to the President setting forth its assessment of, and recommendations for, the space policy and strategy of the United States Government.

OK, nothing says they can't meet more often than once a year, but if you look at the list of members how often do you think you'd be able to get them together? And sure, they could send their Asst. what-evers, but a cohesive planning group needs consistent participation so that action items are followed up quickly.

And since NASA represents less than 1/10 of the membership of the NSC, I'm starting to think we should NOT expect too much NASA-oriented results from the NSC. And my original expectations were that NASA would have a much bigger level of participation, so I'm kind of disappointed.

Any other interpretations?
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline RonM

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #8 on: 07/01/2017 05:16 PM »
The NSC is "in order to provide a coordinated process for developing and monitoring the implementation of national space policy and strategy..." It's not just about NASA, it's about all aspects of US space policy.

The encouraging part for HSF would be looking into the private sector part of space policy. Maybe more money for SpaceX, Blue Origin, and others to work with NASA. NASA working more closely with commercial space for cislunar and Mars exploration would be a step in the right direction.

Online Hauerg

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #9 on: 07/01/2017 05:28 PM »
Hate to say it but Buzz did not look good at all.

I listened to those 7 minutes and got the impression that apart from "big" the president was lost about what to say.

So let's wait and see.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #10 on: 07/01/2017 05:42 PM »
The NSC is "in order to provide a coordinated process for developing and monitoring the implementation of national space policy and strategy..." It's not just about NASA, it's about all aspects of US space policy.

Certainly not about just NASA, and considering the combined budgets of all the departments involved I'd say that NASA is not going to get much attention.

Quote
The encouraging part for HSF would be looking into the private sector part of space policy. Maybe more money for SpaceX, Blue Origin, and others to work with NASA.

Why would NASA need "more money" in order to use the private sector? If NASA isn't saving money overall by using the private sector then I don't think NASA should use the private sector.

For instance, the argument for Commercial Crew is that even after paying for the providers to meet NASA requirements for transporting government employees to the ISS, that it would still cost less over the life of the ISS to use private transportation services than if NASA were to use it's own transportation system.

Quote
NASA working more closely with commercial space for cislunar and Mars exploration would be a step in the right direction.

Of course the reason to do cislunar and Mars exploration should not be just so that we can throw money at the private sector, but because the U.S. Government has defined a national need for doing things in cislunar space or at Mars.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how much NASA-related topics are part of their first meeting goes...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online RotoSequence

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #11 on: 07/01/2017 05:43 PM »
The new National Space Council looks very similar to the previous National Space Council established under Executive Order 12675 by President George Bush in 1989.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/print.php?pid=60450

Online meberbs

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #12 on: 07/01/2017 05:51 PM »
Quote
(vii) The Director of National Intelligence;

No clue. Yes, I could have said something like "Are they expecting to find intelligent life in space?", but I think it's pretty obvious this person will be too busy to stop by this little confab to chat about things he's not worried about. Maybe they'll send someone to make sure no one is going to propose something that will bump into any of their "assets" in space?
Considering how many spy satellites we put up, and the use of satellites for classified military comms, The intelligence community seems like it should have a seat at the table.

Quote
(viii) The Director of the Office of Management and Budget;

OMB Directors suck the life out of any rooms they are in. It's their job to say "NO!!!!". Which is a pretty clear signal that no proposal is ever going to see the light of day from this group of "out of the box" thinkers.
Better to get their criticisms out of the way early. Getting groups whose job is to say "no" involved early is one of the best ways to make sure they don't end up getting your project cut off by them mid way through.

Quote
(ix) The Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs;

(x) The Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration;

Oh good, NASA does get a seat at the far end of the table. And here I was worried...
Other than the VP being the Chair, is there anything that actually specifies an order of precedence here?

With so many high level admins, and almost no specialists, I don't have particularly high expectations of this council though.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #13 on: 07/01/2017 10:24 PM »
Considering how many spy satellites we put up, and the use of satellites for classified military comms, The intelligence community seems like it should have a seat at the table.

Using that analogy, they already have their own table in a completely separate high-security building. I'm not sure why they would see this council as some sort of improvement. And if there are any discussions about national security, NASA will likely be asked to leave the room anyways...

Quote
With so many high level admins, and almost no specialists, I don't have particularly high expectations of this council though.

Yep. Usually detailed work is done by lower level personnel, but Trump is famously not funding a full complement of lower level personnel in most of his agencies and departments, so that makes it less likely to pay attention to this - especially when no one knows what value it will be yet.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #14 on: 07/01/2017 11:15 PM »
All window dressing... Please send money...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Online Eric Hedman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #15 on: 07/02/2017 12:14 AM »
This is another time will tell event.  If you see any decent progress in improving plans and solidifying a direction, the council will take credit for it regardless of who is responsible.  If nothing improves, the next president will probably disband the council.  I'm hoping for the best, but not holding my breath.

Offline daveklingler

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #16 on: 07/02/2017 12:34 AM »
This is fantastic.  It's going to be a beautiful, beautiful thing.  I'm hearing very good things about it, and I think it's going to work very, very well.

All kidding aside, without a new Administrator nomination, it seems likely that no major changes could be ready for a 2018 budget.  Given the unusually slow pace of the Trump nominating process and the very low priority of the space agency, it doesn't seem like the NSC has anything to do for the foreseeable future.

Further, I'm confused over whether Mr. Bannon sees NASA as part of the "administrative state" (it fits his definitions), and therefore something in need of a leader to dismantle it, or part of the military, and therefore an agency in need of a leader to transition it to a defense entity.  Mr. Trump seems to like the idea of keeping NASA around to do a moon landing before 2020, i.e. a vanity project, so that means they've got to figure out how to re-orient NASA toward defense (against China?) AND do a moon landing. 

So maybe that's what the NSC will do, once the new nominee arrives and goes through the confirmation process.  Congress, meanwhile, seems to feel strongly that NASA should remain a suburb of Alabama, which technically makes it part of the Deep State, and they might consequently prefer to keep Lightfoot in charge indefinitely.

Offline daveklingler

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #17 on: 07/02/2017 12:42 AM »
Just as a follow-up to my last post, the make-up of the NSC and the folks invited to the announcement suggest to me that the NSC is there to provide some safety margin against anything erratic and unpredictable happening to SLS and Orion.
« Last Edit: 07/02/2017 12:43 AM by daveklingler »

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #18 on: 07/02/2017 01:55 AM »
All kidding aside, without a new Administrator nomination, it seems likely that no major changes could be ready for a 2018 budget.

The FY2018 budget is the one going thru Congress today, and it does not contain anything new. The earliest the National Space Council could make a difference would be in the FY2019 budget, which doesn't go into effect until October 2018.

Quote
Given the unusually slow pace of the Trump nominating process and the very low priority of the space agency, it doesn't seem like the NSC has anything to do for the foreseeable future.

It will be interesting to see how much of a priority the V.P. makes this council. The key metric will likely end up being how often they meet, since the minimum is once every year, but that is too little to produce anything useful during Trump's first term in office.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online TomH

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #19 on: 07/02/2017 05:25 AM »

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #20 on: 07/02/2017 09:35 AM »
Good to know that VPOTUS is a space enthusiast. President Trump made particular reference to the private sector, which seemed to indicate a recognition of the new value proposition available through them.

Who are the private sector members of America's new Space Council likely to be? Will Musk or Bezos or Tory Bruno be on there? Will some of the seats be up for rotation?

I hope that any proposal for increased military usage of space gives adequate consideration to the risk that use of ASAT weapons by any party could render much of Earth's orbital space unusable.

Online AncientU

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #21 on: 07/02/2017 01:41 PM »
...

With so many high level admins, and almost no specialists, I don't have particularly high expectations of this council though.

Putting on the optimistic hat -- could be an advantage...
As in high level international meetings, the heads of state do really nothing.  Each appoints a working group that does all the leg work (the real place specialists are needed) and then the bigs meet to 'ratify' the decisions made.  This group is too high and too over booked to spend more than a day a year on NSC.

Removing the hat... nothing will come of the NSC unless the VP commandeers the group for advancing his personal agenda.  If that is actually space-related... maybe a bit more than nothing.
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Offline Proponent

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #22 on: 07/02/2017 02:48 PM »
No space for new space at Trump’s space council rollout

Quote
The primary advocate for new space companies, the Commercial Spaceflight Federation, was not invited to the event on Friday. SpaceX's Elon Musk and Blue Origin's Jeff Bezos were asked to attend, but neither could make the event on short notice. One official involved in the new space community told Ars, "If you were not with Alabama or SLS, you weren't getting into the event today. They didn't want any commercial space there." Alabama is the home state of the Marshall Space Flight Center, which manages development of the SLS rocket.

In the same article, however, Eric Berger goes on to say that the thing to watch now is who get appointed to the Council's Users' Advisory Group,  the function of which is "to ensure that the interests of industries and other non-Federal entities involved in space activities, including in particular commercial entities, are adequately represented in the Council."  Here is the full text of the executive order creating the Council.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #23 on: 07/02/2017 10:14 PM »
The National Space Council is the wrong forum for SLS. The Council is full of people working for military and intelligence agencies. It is therefore likely to be a Falcon 9 and Atlas V love in.

Offline dcfowler1

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #24 on: 07/04/2017 04:44 AM »
Hate to say it but Buzz did not look good at all.

Buzz was just fine. He was reacting incredulously to the word salad that he was hearing.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #25 on: 07/13/2017 11:32 PM »
Quote
Marcia Smith‏ @SpcPlcyOnline

Marcia Smith Retweeted Marcia Smith

Well, officially, the White House announced its 'Intent" to nominate Scott, but close enough.

Quote
Marcia Smith‏ @SpcPlcyOnline

At last its official! 
White House has nominated Scott Pace to be Executive Secretary of the National Space Council.

https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/885638281534345216

Offline Propylox

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #26 on: 07/13/2017 11:56 PM »
Quote
The primary advocate for new space companies, the Commercial Spaceflight Federation, was not invited to the event on Friday. SpaceX's Elon Musk and Blue Origin's Jeff Bezos were asked to attend, but neither could make the event on short notice. One official involved in the new space community told Ars, "If you were not with Alabama or SLS, you weren't getting into the event today. They didn't want any commercial space there." Alabama is the home state of the Marshall Space Flight Center, which manages development of the SLS rocket.
In the same article, however, Eric Berger goes on to say that the thing to watch now is who get appointed to the Council's Users' Advisory Group,  the function of which is "to ensure that the interests of industries and other non-Federal entities involved in space activities, including in particular commercial entities, are adequately represented in the Council."

All this seems preparation and collaboration for redirecting our national space policy. Considering the lack of development, results and SLS abyss this administration is walking into, the sooner a plan and restructuring is made - the better. http://spacenews.com/white-house-not-expected-to-rush-development-of-new-space-policy/
Quote
... Sandra Magnus and Chris Shank said they expected the Trump administration to use the newly-reestablished National Space Council to draft such a policy, but that it would not necessarily be a priority for it. ... Shank suggested that the White House might take incremental measures leading up to a policy. “There’s a speed of government and a speed of business,” he said. “I think the speed of business for a number of folks within the administration is to make little shifts along the way as opposed to waiting.” ... “I think there’s a lot of potential here,” (Magnus) said. “What we could use as a nation is an integrated strategy for how we want to approach space.”
« Last Edit: 07/13/2017 11:57 PM by Propylox »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #27 on: 07/14/2017 11:16 AM »
From last night:

Quote
Marcia Smith‏ @SpcPlcyOnline 9h9 hours ago

WH announcement re Scott Pace (snip from WH press release rec'd 7:09 pm ET)
https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/885685392699248640

Quote
Wayne Hale‏ @waynehale 11h11 hours ago
Replying to @SpcPlcyOnline

Scott will do well as Executive Director of the Space Council
https://twitter.com/waynehale/status/885652394729713665

Online Chris Bergin

Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #28 on: 07/14/2017 02:57 PM »
AIAA CONGRATULATES SCOTT PACE ON NEW SPACE LEADERSHIP ROLE
Associate Fellow to be Named Executive Secretary of National Space Council
July 14, 2017 – Reston, Va. – The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA)
congratulates Dr. Scott Pace on his pending appointment by President Donald Trump to lead the
newly reestablished National Space Council. Pace, who currently serves as director of The George
Washington University’s Space Policy Institute, has been an AIAA member since 1979. He is an AIAA
Associate Fellow and former member of the AIAA Public Policy Committee.
“Scott has devoted his career to space policy, and will bring a wealth of experience and knowledge
to this role,” said AIAA Executive Director Sandy Magnus. “We look forward to working with him,
Council members, and the Vice President’s office as we strive to maintain our nation’s leadership in
the civil, commercial, and national security space sectors.”

Offline Jim

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #29 on: 07/14/2017 03:53 PM »
The National Space Council is the wrong forum for SLS. The Council is full of people working for military and intelligence agencies. It is therefore likely to be a Falcon 9 and Atlas V love in.

No, the National Space Council is exactly the proper forum for SLS and anything NASA does.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #30 on: 07/14/2017 04:24 PM »
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate ReleaseJune 30, 2017
Presidential Executive Order on Reviving the National Space Council

...

Sec. 2. Revival and Composition of the National Space Council. (a) The Council is hereby revived and shall resume operations.

(b) The Council shall be composed of the following members:

(i) The Vice President, who shall be Chair of the Council;

(ii) The Secretary of State;

1.  The Secretary of State? Besides having no time to attend because of, you know, real problems around the world that need his attention, this makes me think that the NSC may be envisioned to do things that will cause great attention around the world.

Quote
(iii) The Secretary of Defense;

2.  OK, this officially means that the NSC is not just focused on the peaceful use of space, which is NASA's bailiwick.

Quote
(iv) The Secretary of Commerce;

(v) The Secretary of Transportation;

(vi) The Secretary of Homeland Security;

3.  Seriously, are they planning on setting up TSA at spaceports? Will my Global Entry card be good enough for re-entry to the U.S., or will I need my passport?

Quote
(vii) The Director of National Intelligence;

4.  No clue. Yes, I could have said something like "Are they expecting to find intelligent life in space?", but I think it's pretty obvious this person will be too busy to stop by this little confab to chat about things he's not worried about. Maybe they'll send someone to make sure no one is going to propose something that will bump into any of their "assets" in space?

Quote
(viii) The Director of the Office of Management and Budget;

5.  OMB Directors suck the life out of any rooms they are in. It's their job to say "NO!!!!". Which is a pretty clear signal that no proposal is ever going to see the light of day from this group of "out of the box" thinkers.

Quote
(ix) The Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs;

(x) The Administrator of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration;

Oh good, NASA does get a seat at the far end of the table. And here I was worried...

I'll skip down to one other important point.

Quote
(c)  The Council shall meet at least annually.

And

Quote
Sec. 8.  Report.  Within 1 year of the date of this order, and annually thereafter, the Council shall submit a report to the President setting forth its assessment of, and recommendations for, the space policy and strategy of the United States Government.

6.  OK, nothing says they can't meet more often than once a year, but if you look at the list of members how often do you think you'd be able to get them together? And sure, they could send their Asst. what-evers, but a cohesive planning group needs consistent participation so that action items are followed up quickly.

7. And since NASA represents less than 1/10 of the membership of the NSC, I'm starting to think we should NOT expect too much NASA-oriented results from the NSC. And my original expectations were that NASA would have a much bigger level of participation, so I'm kind of disappointed.

Any other interpretations?

You had the wrong expectations in first place  The NSC is for all US space policy and not just US govt civilian (NASA) policy.  Why would the council makeup be any different from past ones?  This isn't any different than past ones.

1.   Secretary of State because of cooperation in space like the ISS

2.  It was never " focused on the peaceful use of space", it about US govt space policy which includes the military aspects.

3.  Seriously?  Do you know that NOAA is part of the DOC and it has constellations of spacecraft that would be part of National space policy? Also, that the FAA is part of the DOT and it plays a huge role in setting US  commercial space policy in regulation of commercial space launch and entry activities.  If space tourism is going to take off, then customs and immigration (DHS) will come into play.

4.  DCI, really?  NRO reports to the DCI.

5.  Why are you surprised?  Policy is meaningless unless there is a budget to go with it.

6.  The staff is what does all the work.  The actual council is just to rubber stamp the policy.

7.  It was never just about NASA
 

Offline Jim

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #31 on: 07/14/2017 04:31 PM »

Using that analogy, they already have their own table in a completely separate high-security building. I'm not sure why they would see this council as some sort of improvement. And if there are any discussions about national security, NASA will likely be asked to leave the room anyways...


Wrong.  NASA personnel have the clearances.  NASA supports national security.  See TDRSS, GOES, NASA launch services, NASA spacecraft, etc

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #32 on: 07/14/2017 04:34 PM »
Who are the private sector members of America's new Space Council likely to be? Will Musk or Bezos or Tory Bruno be on there? Will some of the seats be up for rotation?


The council is US gov't only.  Industry is represented by the Department of Commerce and Transportation and those who use their products.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #33 on: 07/17/2017 06:27 AM »
Here's a piece written by Scott Pace in March that may well give some indications of the direction the NSC will take:

Quote
March 14, 2017 - 06:00 PM EDT
Space is bigger than NASA
BY SCOTT PACE, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/transportation/323969-space-is-bigger-than-just-nasa

Online AncientU

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #34 on: 07/17/2017 10:11 AM »
Who are the private sector members of America's new Space Council likely to be? Will Musk or Bezos or Tory Bruno be on there? Will some of the seats be up for rotation?


The council is US gov't only.  Industry is represented by the Department of Commerce and Transportation and those who use their products.

There will be an industry advisory board (I think that's its name*) made up of private sector individuals.

* Users' Advisory Group per Eric Berger's article above
« Last Edit: 07/17/2017 10:29 AM by AncientU »
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #35 on: 07/17/2017 10:24 AM »
Here's a piece written by Scott Pace in March that may well give some indications of the direction the NSC will take:

Quote
March 14, 2017 - 06:00 PM EDT
Space is bigger than NASA
BY SCOTT PACE, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/transportation/323969-space-is-bigger-than-just-nasa

Impressive. Concise and to the point of what a nascent NSC should be about.

Quote
If we want to enhance stability by broadening international support for productive and stable norms of behavior in space, then we need to establish and lead space initiatives in which other nations can participate.

If we want to shape the values and norms of the new frontier, then we must ourselves be on that frontier. New societies are shaped by those who are there, not by those who stay home.
bold mine

Leadership is about going somewhere and compelling others, through that action, to follow.
« Last Edit: 07/17/2017 10:25 AM by AncientU »
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #36 on: 07/17/2017 10:37 AM »
On NASA (strong focus on innovation and technology development which is great!):

Quote
Over the past decade, space policy decision-making has been fragmented and left to lower-level staff rather than accountable leadership. This has resulted in declining budgets and slower innovation. NASA's $19.3 billion budget in 2016 was 0.5 percent of federal government spending. If NASA had the same spending power as in 1992, around the end of the Cold War, its budget would be over $24 billion today.

We spend 20 percent less on NASA than we did 25 years ago, while the importance of space is greater than ever.

We are lagging behind China in cutting-edge hypersonic research while innovative U.S. commercial remote-sensing companies are tangled in regulatory limbo. U.S. economic and security interests are in peril unless there is a new burst of innovation and regulatory relief in our aerospace industries.
« Last Edit: 07/17/2017 10:38 AM by AncientU »
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #37 on: 07/17/2017 10:50 AM »
More on Scott Pace:

Quote
Meet Scott Pace, the National Space Council's new executive secretary

Quote
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/jason-davis/2017/20170714-scott-pace-overview.html
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Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #38 on: 07/18/2017 10:47 AM »
I'm encouraged by all of this. Pace has a very good middle tone between the current and forward plans. Pence seems like a big space flight fan. Trump is the strongest President you've had since Reagan and they do love some flag waving, as do I. So I can see the space programme both government and commercial doing well out of this new era!

Offline Danderman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #39 on: 07/29/2017 06:49 PM »
I am sure that Mr. Pace will be a strong advocate for full funding for NASA.

Offline Propylox

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #40 on: 08/01/2017 07:11 AM »
I am sure that Mr. Pace will be a strong advocate for full funding for NASA.
Pace, Pence, Congress, whoever - advocating for funding doesn't do anything if the funding is constantly wasted. Reestablishing the NSC should focus the efforts and direction first and foremost, not just cheerlead budgets. Ideally the NSF would outlay a plan to improve the effectiveness, speed and returns of our space program at lower budgets, providing margin for future advancements and missions.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #41 on: 08/08/2017 12:30 PM »
New articles:
Quote
The National Space Council gets to work

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/3301/1

Quote
A dim future for the National Space Council?

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/3300/1
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Online AncientU

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #42 on: 08/08/2017 04:50 PM »
Another:
Quote
Trump’s space leader says SpaceX is outstanding, but…

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/the-new-leader-of-trumps-space-council-seems-skeptical-of-spacex/
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #43 on: 09/26/2017 08:20 PM »
Quote
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release
September 26, 2017

\Vice President Mike Pence Announces First Meeting of The National Space Council

Today, Vice President Mike Pence announced the first meeting of the National Space Council is scheduled for October 5, 2017 at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, Virginia. The meeting, titled “Leading the Next Frontier: An Event with the National Space Council,” will include testimonials from expert witnesses who represent the sectors of the space industry: Civil Space, Commercial Space, and National Security Space.

“At President Trump’s direction, the kick-off meeting of the National Space Council will bring together all aspects and sectors of the national space enterprise for the first time in a quarter century,” said Vice President Pence. “This meeting will provide an opportunity for the Administration to lay out its vision for space exploration. As President Trump said, ‘We’re a nation of pioneers, and the next great American frontier is space.’ ”

President Trump signed an executive order reestablishing the National Space Council on June 30, 2017. Currently confirmed council members of the first meeting include: National Space Council Chairman, Vice President Mike Pence; Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson; Secretary of Defense, James Mattis; Secretary of Commerce, Wilbur Ross; Secretary of Transportation, Elaine Chao; Acting Secretary of Homeland Security, Elaine Duke; Office of Management and Budget Director, Mick Mulvaney; National Security Advisor, H.R. McMaster; Director of National Intelligence, Daniel Coats; Acting NASA Administrator, Robert Lightfoot; Deputy Chief Technology Officer of the United States, Michael Kratsios; and the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Paul J. Selva.

Additional details about the meeting are forthcoming.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/26/vice-president-mike-pence-announces-first-meeting-national-space-council

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #44 on: 10/04/2017 02:53 PM »
Quote
Here’s what to expect from Trump’s space council meeting this week
"I'm optimistic. The VP's staff has been incredibly engaging."

Eric Berger - 10/4/2017, 3:16 PM

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/heres-what-to-expect-from-trumps-space-council-meeting-this-week/

Includes:

Quote
According to sources, chief executives or presidents of Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Orbital ATK will speak during the civil space panel; representatives of SpaceX, Blue Origin, and Sierra Nevada Corporation will speak on the commercial space panel; and Air Force and Navy officials will speak during the military space panel.


Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #45 on: 10/04/2017 03:34 PM »
Quote
Stephen C. Smith‏ @WordsmithFL 10m10 minutes ago

I'm curious to see how many Council members show up.
https://twitter.com/WordsmithFL/status/915598145098264576

Quote
Eric Berger‏ Verified account @SciGuySpace 3m3 minutes ago

I think many or almost all will. Gwynne will be testifying for SpaceX.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/915600074213912576

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #46 on: 10/04/2017 07:18 PM »
Here's the roster:
Quote
Full list of participants in Thursday's National Space Council meeting.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/915654776402178048

Only 45 minutes for civil space, 30 minutes each for commercial and military!!!
Seems a total waste of time for such high level participants... 
What of substance can you do with three panelists (assuming each makes a statement) and then discussions/Q&A with council?
(Bad omen for style over substance.)
« Last Edit: 10/04/2017 07:24 PM by AncientU »
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #47 on: 10/04/2017 08:19 PM »
October 04, 2017
MEDIA ADVISORY M17-115
NASA Provides Coverage for First Meeting of the National Space Council
white house logo

NASA Television and the agency’s website will provide live coverage of the first meeting of the National Space Council starting at 10 a.m. EDT Thursday, Oct. 5.

The meeting, titled “Leading the Next Frontier: An Event with the National Space Council,” will be held at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum’s Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, Virginia. It will be chaired Vice President Mike Pence and include participation by acting NASA Administrator Robert Lightfoot, as well as a number of Trump Administration cabinet members and senior officials, and aerospace industry leaders.

“We expect to come out of this meeting with a reinvigorated focus for America’s space exploration goals that engages all the innovation of NASA and our partners, moves us toward national priorities, and excites people around the world,” said Lightfoot.

The council will hear testimonial from expert witnesses who represent the sectors of the space industry: Civil Space, Commercial Space, and National Security Space. President Trump signed an executive order reestablishing the National Space Council on June 30.

Images from the meeting will be available at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasahqphoto

Video highlights will be available to download at:

https://www.nasa.gov/videofile

Offline Lars-J

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #48 on: 10/05/2017 12:05 AM »
Here's the roster:
Quote
Full list of participants in Thursday's National Space Council meeting.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/915654776402178048

Only 45 minutes for civil space, 30 minutes each for commercial and military!!!
Seems a total waste of time for such high level participants... 
What of substance can you do with three panelists (assuming each makes a statement) and then discussions/Q&A with council?
(Bad omen for style over substance.)

Yes, certainly. Did you expect anything different?

Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #49 on: 10/05/2017 12:13 AM »
Here's the roster:
Quote
Full list of participants in Thursday's National Space Council meeting.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/915654776402178048

Only 45 minutes for civil space, 30 minutes each for commercial and military!!!
Seems a total waste of time for such high level participants... 
What of substance can you do with three panelists (assuming each makes a statement) and then discussions/Q&A with council?
(Bad omen for style over substance.)

That's a lot more than under prior administrations. House and Senate hearings aren't any longer.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #50 on: 10/05/2017 12:33 AM »
Here's the roster:
Quote
Full list of participants in Thursday's National Space Council meeting.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/915654776402178048

Only 45 minutes for civil space, 30 minutes each for commercial and military!!!
Seems a total waste of time for such high level participants... 
What of substance can you do with three panelists (assuming each makes a statement) and then discussions/Q&A with council?
(Bad omen for style over substance.)

Not divulging any inside information, but speculating given my experience...

The council members and staffers, etc. may be also:

Going on tours of this wonderful air and space museum.

Eating lunch.

Have time set aside for unofficial conversation.
***


Many of them may be coming by road from other parts of the DC metro area.  If so, they may have to budget an hour of time or more to get to and from the Hazy Center in DC traffic.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 12:34 AM by zubenelgenubi »
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #51 on: 10/05/2017 12:54 AM »
That's a lot more than under prior administrations.

Ya mean other than the weeks and weeks that went into the Review of United States Human Space Flight Plans Committee?

Hopefully this group won't be making recommendations for what could be done if the budget for human spaceflight was twice what it is now.

Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #52 on: 10/05/2017 01:06 AM »
You guys might wanna pay attention. Something might happen...

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #53 on: 10/05/2017 01:12 AM »
You guys might wanna pay attention. Something might happen...

I'll be awake at midnight watching.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #54 on: 10/05/2017 01:46 AM »
Okay, so the story got out (I expected them to hold it right up to the actual public hearing):

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/america-will-return-to-the-moonand-go-beyond-1507158341


Sixty years ago this week, the Soviet Union launched the world’s first satellite into orbit, changing the course of history. The race for space was on, and the Soviets had taken an early lead. But the sight of Sputnik blinking across the October sky spurred Americans to action. Twelve years later, with “one giant leap for mankind,” the U.S. claimed its rightful place as the undisputed leader in the exploration of the heavens.

That pre-eminence in outer space is now under threat—and once again, America must act. President Trump has revived the National Space Council to assist him in developing and implementing long-range strategic goals for our nation’s space policy. On Thursday the council will hold its first meeting in nearly 25 years, and as its chairman, I will deliver a simple message: America will lead in space again.

More than ever, American prosperity and security depend on U.S. leadership in space. Yet national space policy often has lacked a coherent, cohesive vision. The results not only are disappointing; they endanger the well-being of the American people.

The U.S. pays Russia more than $76 million a seat to carry American astronauts to the International Space Station, since we have no vehicle capable of performing this task. The intelligence community reports that Russia and China are pursuing a full range of antisatellite technology designed to threaten our military’s effectiveness. These are only two examples of America’s abdication of leadership in space.

The president has charged the National Space Council with restoring that leadership. The council’s objectives are clear.

We will refocus America’s space program toward human exploration and discovery. That means launching American astronauts beyond low-Earth orbit for the first time since 1972. It means establishing a renewed American presence on the moon, a vital strategic goal. And from the foundation of the moon, America will be the first nation to bring mankind to Mars.

We will renew America’s commitment to creating the space technology needed to protect national security. Our adversaries are aggressively developing jamming and hacking capabilities that could cripple critical military surveillance, navigation systems and communication networks. In the face of this threat, America must be as dominant in the heavens as it is on Earth.

We will promote regulatory, technological, and educational reforms to expand opportunities for American citizens and ensure that the U.S. is at the forefront of economic development in outer space. In the years to come, American industry must be the first to maintain a constant commercial human presence in low-Earth orbit, to expand the sphere of the economy beyond this blue marble.​

To achieve these goals, the National Space Council will look beyond the halls of government for insight and expertise. In the coming weeks, President Trump and I will assemble a Users’ Advisory Group partly composed of leaders from America’s burgeoning commercial space industry. Business is leading the way on space technology, and we intend to draw from the bottomless well of innovation to solve the challenges ahead.

Above all, the National Space Council will enable our nation to bring American values to this infinite frontier. It will renew the American spirit itself, as we lift our heads and reach our hands toward the heavens, in pursuit of peace and hope for all mankind.

As the National Space Council meets Thursday, our nation can know with confidence: Under President Trump, America will lead in space again.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 02:01 AM by Blackstar »

Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #55 on: 10/05/2017 02:20 AM »
Quote from: Vice President Pence
We will refocus America’s space program toward human exploration and discovery. That means launching American astronauts beyond low-Earth orbit for the first time since 1972. It means establishing a renewed American presence on the moon, a vital strategic goal. And from the foundation of the moon, America will be the first nation to bring mankind to Mars.

So we are going back to the Moon first. I hope that they focus on that tomorrow.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 03:06 AM by yg1968 »

Offline savuporo

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #56 on: 10/05/2017 02:29 AM »
What is this article exactly? Official policy announcement? It reads as very generic rah rah, without any specifics. Not that VP is supposed to provide specifics but..
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Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #57 on: 10/05/2017 03:00 AM »
What is this article exactly? Official policy announcement? It reads as very generic rah rah, without any specifics. Not that VP is supposed to provide specifics but..

It's an opinion piece in the WSJ by Mike Pence.

Online Craig_VG

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #58 on: 10/05/2017 03:01 AM »
Quote
In the years to come, American industry must be the first to maintain a constant commercial human presence in low-Earth orbit, to expand the sphere of the economy beyond this blue marble.​

To achieve these goals, the National Space Council will look beyond the halls of government for insight and expertise. In the coming weeks, President Trump and I will assemble a Users’ Advisory Group partly composed of leaders from America’s burgeoning commercial space industry. Business is leading the way on space technology, and we intend to draw from the bottomless well of innovation to solve the challenges ahead.

This is the most interesting part in my mind.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #59 on: 10/05/2017 03:10 AM »
The James S. McDonnell Space Hangar will be closed tomorrow for this event.
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #60 on: 10/05/2017 11:04 AM »
Here's the roster:
Quote
Full list of participants in Thursday's National Space Council meeting.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/915654776402178048

Only 45 minutes for civil space, 30 minutes each for commercial and military!!!
Seems a total waste of time for such high level participants... 
What of substance can you do with three panelists (assuming each makes a statement) and then discussions/Q&A with council?
(Bad omen for style over substance.)

Yes, certainly. Did you expect anything different?

Hoping more than expecting...
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Online AncientU

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #61 on: 10/05/2017 11:54 AM »
Quote
In the years to come, American industry must be the first to maintain a constant commercial human presence in low-Earth orbit, to expand the sphere of the economy beyond this blue marble.​

To achieve these goals, the National Space Council will look beyond the halls of government for insight and expertise. In the coming weeks, President Trump and I will assemble a Users’ Advisory Group partly composed of leaders from America’s burgeoning commercial space industry. Business is leading the way on space technology, and we intend to draw from the bottomless well of innovation to solve the challenges ahead.

This is the most interesting part in my mind.

If panel composition is any indication, Boeing, LM, OrbitalATK are civil space in organizer's mind, SpaceX, Blue, and SN are commercial.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 11:55 AM by AncientU »
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Offline gosnold

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #62 on: 10/05/2017 12:41 PM »
Quote
Jeff Foust‏ @jeff_foust
At the Udvar-Hazy Center for today’s National Space Council meeting.  A not-unexpected backdrop:


This picture would fit nicely in the opening credits of the TV series American Gods

Online AncientU

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #63 on: 10/05/2017 01:21 PM »
ArsTechnica article:
Quote
It’s official: Trump administration turns NASA back toward the Moon

Quote
Left unsaid is how NASA will get humans to the Moon and (eventually, probably decades from now) Mars. He does not mention NASA's Space Launch System rocket nor the Orion spacecraft in his op-ed, both of which are the agency's flagship programs for sending humans into deep space.

Rather, Pence cites the need to "look beyond the halls of government for insight and expertise." He mentions an advisory group composed of commercial space leaders and says, "business is leading the way on space technology, and we intend to draw from the bottomless well of innovation to solve the challenges ahead."

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/its-official-trump-administration-turns-nasa-back-toward-the-moon/
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #64 on: 10/05/2017 02:07 PM »
Opening remarks from Discovery? :)

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #65 on: 10/05/2017 02:17 PM »
NASM Director Jack Dailey opening the session and introducing VP Pence.

Both NASA TV channels are showing this; the EVA coverage on Channel 3 has been pre-empted.

(EVA coverage continues at https://www.nasa.gov/nasalive .)

(I can't provide consistent coverage this morning, but I'll do what I can.)
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 02:31 PM by zubenelgenubi »
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #66 on: 10/05/2017 02:31 PM »
"We will return American astronauts to the Moon. Not only to leave footprints (but as a training ground for Mars)." So that's lunar landings, not just the DSG or fly bys.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 02:31 PM by Chris Bergin »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #67 on: 10/05/2017 02:38 PM »
The guests for this panel are from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Orbital ATK.

This is going to be mainly about SLS, Orion and the Starliner side of Commercial Space then!


Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #69 on: 10/05/2017 03:11 PM »
SpaceX, Blue Origin and SNC next.

"There is a renaissance in space right now" - Ms. Shotwell.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #70 on: 10/05/2017 04:01 PM »
Based on input from commercial panel, particularly SpaceX but also Blue Origin, VP Pence has just set an action for some of the council to look at streamlining regulation and report back for the next council meeting (within 45 days).

OMB representative on the council mentioned that they've already requested the SpaceX whitepaper on (de-)regulation which Gwynne Shotwell mentioned in her testimony.

So I think Gwynne will think her attendance today worthwhile!
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 04:02 PM by FutureSpaceTourist »

Online AncientU

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #71 on: 10/05/2017 04:13 PM »
Here's the roster:
Quote
Full list of participants in Thursday's National Space Council meeting.
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/915654776402178048

Only 45 minutes for civil space, 30 minutes each for commercial and military!!!
Seems a total waste of time for such high level participants... 
What of substance can you do with three panelists (assuming each makes a statement) and then discussions/Q&A with council?
(Bad omen for style over substance.)

Yes, certainly. Did you expect anything different?

Hoping more than expecting...

I underestimated the potential for these brief panels; the panelists have been excellent -- would be a good place to start building an Advisory Committee.  They are deep into the meat of where we are in space and the risks/opportunities.
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Offline Svetoslav

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #72 on: 10/05/2017 04:20 PM »
Very well :)

Now... will anybody agree with me? Man on the Moon is way, way more exciting than man on an asteroid :) And a lunar lander looks more sexy than an asteroid lander or... an asteroid rock redirect mission?

Let's hope the new vision won't be the old Apollo on steroids though...
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 04:21 PM by Svetoslav »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #73 on: 10/05/2017 04:42 PM »
Well it was very wide-ranging. Certainly worth watching a repeat when the video is up.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #74 on: 10/05/2017 04:49 PM »
Closed the event with The Washington Post March!
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #75 on: 10/05/2017 05:19 PM »
NASA:

The following is a statement from acting NASA Administrator Robert Lightfoot about the results from the first meeting of the National Space Council on Thursday:

“It was my pleasure today to attend the first meeting of the new National Space Council. The council includes government leaders from civil and military space, and the group also heard from space industry leaders. The council has historic roots in the earliest days of the Space Age, and it has been established by the president to streamline and coordinate national space policy.

“The council is chaired by Vice President Mike Pence, who continues to demonstrate extraordinary interest in our work. In fact, he recently visited the Marshall Space Flight Center, Johnson Space Center and the Kennedy Space Center. He addressed the workforce at our centers with great passion and introduced our new astronaut candidates class. At today’s meeting he made it clear that space is a national priority.

“The vice president also announced a call for renewed U.S. leadership in space – with a recommendation to the president that NASA help lead and shape the way forward. Specifically, NASA has been directed to develop a plan for an innovative and sustainable program of exploration with commercial and international partners to enable human expansion across the solar system, returning humans to the Moon for long-term exploration and utilization, followed by human missions to Mars and other destinations.

“The recommendation to the president would modify the existing National Space Policy to provide focus and direction to some of NASA’s current activities and plans, and remove a previous guideline that NASA should undertake a human mission to an asteroid as the next human spaceflight milestone beyond low-Earth orbit. The National Space Council acknowledged the strategic importance of cis-lunar space -- the region around the Moon -- which will serve as a proving ground for missions to Mars and beyond and advance our stepping stone approach to going farther into the solar system. Based on a number of conversations I’ve had with the council, we have highlighted a number of initiatives underway in this important area, including a study of an orbital gateway or outpost that could support a sustained cadence of robotic and human missions, as well as ensuing human missions to the lunar and Mars surfaces, and other destinations.

“The direction builds on the hard work we have already been doing on the Space Launch System rocket and Orion spacecraft, our efforts to enable our commercial partners and work with our international partners in low-Earth orbit at the International Space Station, and what we have been learning from our current robotic presence at the Moon and Mars. It adds further definition to the exploration plan we have been implementing, and strengthens and provides a context for studies and planning efforts underway across our human spaceflight, science and technology directorates. Among new areas, we will work with industry and the international community on robotic lunar landers that explore the nature of the Moon and its resources, such as water.

“We have already been planning human missions to cis-lunar space beginning with Exploration Mission-2, and with the upcoming budget process, we will look to solidify this work with our new goals in place.

“Working in close coordination across government through the new National Space Council, and with our commercial and international partners, we are going to chart a new future in space with opportunities for all.”

-end-

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #76 on: 10/05/2017 05:44 PM »


« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 07:36 PM by sanman »

Offline UltraViolet9

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #77 on: 10/05/2017 06:46 PM »

There seems to be a disconnect between VP Pence's WSJ op-ed and Lightfoot's press release.  The White House appears focused on American astronauts on the Moon while NASA is pushing everything else (ISS, SLS/Orion, DSG, robotic landers) without clearly committing to US boots on regolith.

I'm not saying whether that's good or bad.  Such discussion is for the Space Policy board.  But if confirmed, it looks like Bridenstine will have to put considerable effort into turning the ship that is NASA human space flight in the direction that the White House wants to go.

Offline Star One

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #78 on: 10/05/2017 07:41 PM »
All I can say to this is good, shame it’s about a decade late.

It’s official: Trump administration turns NASA back toward the Moon

Quote
"We will refocus America's space program toward human exploration and discovery," Pence wrote. "That means launching American astronauts beyond low-Earth orbit for the first time since 1972. It means establishing a renewed American presence on the Moon, a vital strategic goal. And from the foundation of the Moon, America will be the first nation to bring mankind to Mars."

There are several notable phrases in there. The first, "on the Moon," is fairly obvious. In recent years NASA has talked about sending humans to a space station near the Moon but not landing astronauts there. Second, Pence identifies America as the "first nation" to send humans to Mars. This raises questions about the extent to which such a venture, which almost certainly must ultimately have international support to succeed across multiple administrations, will be cast as an international venture.

Finally, Pence refers to bringing "mankind" to Mars, rather than the more inclusive "humankind." This is curious, because when Pence visited Houston to introduce the 2017 astronaut class, five of the 12 candidates were women, as was half of the 2013 class.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/10/its-official-trump-administration-turns-nasa-back-toward-the-moon/?amp=1

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #79 on: 10/05/2017 08:01 PM »
All I can say to this is good, shame it’s about a decade late.

While I agree with you generally (the Moon is the only realistic goal, and Mars is a dream for the more distant future), it's way more important to stick to one destination, commit to it for a period longer than a presidential term (that's it, 4-5 years), allocate funds and what's most important, start to work on dedicated hardware.

After three administrations switched (Bush-Obama-Trump) it was clear that we should go beyond LEO, but it was never decided where to. To go to the Moon in the Constellation way looked boring (we repeat Apollo again), going to asteroid seemed uninspiring, and Mars (the ultimate goal) - still distant in the future, in 2030 at the earliest.

The result of all this is that we have production of SLS hardware, as well as the Orion spaceship. This allow us to go beyond LEO, but there aren't a lot of choices. Perhaps we'll live to see a mission to the orbit of the Moon. Maybe touristic circumlunar voyages.

But the entry descend and landing hardware was never developed - either for the Moon or Mars. So if we commit to a lunar landing, it will take some years to develop the lander.

Offline Star One

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #80 on: 10/05/2017 08:06 PM »
All I can say to this is good, shame it’s about a decade late.

While I agree with you generally (the Moon is the only realistic goal, and Mars is a dream for the more distant future), it's way more important to stick to one destination, commit to it for a period longer than a presidential term (that's it, 4-5 years), allocate funds and what's most important, start to work on dedicated hardware.

After three administrations switched (Bush-Obama-Trump) it was clear that we should go beyond LEO, but it was never decided where to. To go to the Moon in the Constellation way looked boring (we repeat Apollo again), going to asteroid seemed uninspiring, and Mars (the ultimate goal) - still distant in the future, in 2030 at the earliest.

The result of all this is that we have production of SLS hardware, as well as the Orion spaceship. This allow us to go beyond LEO, but there aren't a lot of choices. Perhaps we'll live to see a mission to the orbit of the Moon. Maybe touristic circumlunar voyages.

But the entry descend and landing hardware was never developed - either for the Moon or Mars. So if we commit to a lunar landing, it will take some years to develop the lander.

The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

Offline Svetoslav

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #81 on: 10/05/2017 08:20 PM »

The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

My memories are quite fresh and we're talking about decisions taken 10-15 years ago :)

What do I mean? Back then the ISS was quite hated. It was still unfinished and the schedule was lagging due to Columbia disaster. And certain modules like CAM never flew. There were a lot of people who thought the ISS distracted NASA from doing real exploration. Renowned scientists like Steven Weinberg called the station an "orbital turkey". Bob Park was quite active too and he wasn't a fan of the ISS either.

Right now the attitude is different. The ISS is being used to test new hardware like the BEAM module or as a destination of new commercial spaceships. We also had a year-long mission. It does feel like a testing ground for deep space exploration and there is some progress.

But 10 years ago Mars fans claimed we just can't afford another ISS, but on the Moon, which would distract us from the Red Planet. We'll have to plan it, then we'll have to build it and it would take years, then we'll have to support it for even more years. And what purpose will it serve except for supporting a small crew on the lunar surface?

It looked like a good argument back then. And we'll have to keep in mind that if we commit to some kind of an international lunar station, it will be a focus of manned international efforts for quite some time, just as the ISS is the focus until 2024 at the earliest.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #82 on: 10/05/2017 10:27 PM »
Just watching todays meeting.
Gwynne Shotwell:
Quote
So far this year, SpaceX has successfully completed thirteen launches, more than any other nation.

Amused me.

Talking of the vision of passenger transport.
Quote
... But the system is also being designed to do earth hops, and those are going to be some of the first tests that you will actually see with the falcon spaceship


Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #83 on: 10/05/2017 10:45 PM »
The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

So did you want the Constellation program under US President Bush to be retained at the time?

Strangely, the zigs and zigs gave way to programs like COTS, which allowed companies like SpaceX to emerge. I recall people here saying that COTS originated from Mike Griffin, who was NASA administrator when Constellation was being pursued.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #84 on: 10/05/2017 10:48 PM »
The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

Everything depends on what the national goal will be, and we don't know what that will yet. And as has been proven many times, just having a goal doesn't mean that Congress will fund the effort.

Presidents have been wanting to go to Mars for decades, yet the cost of going there has been too high for Congress to agree to fund. As for returning to the Moon, the Constellation program was cancelled by Congress partially due to it's high cost, and nothing has changed since then.

So other than a new Administration being in power, what makes what V.P. Pence proposes more likely to happen than any other BEO plan in the past?
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline savuporo

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #85 on: 10/05/2017 10:49 PM »
... I recall people here saying that COTS originated from Mike Griffin, who was NASA administrator when Constellation was being pursued.
No it didnt. We can take this to history section, but AAS existed way before, COTS was just the existing concept repurposed.

EDIT: from the horses mouth:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/SP-2014-617.pdf
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 10:53 PM by savuporo »
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #86 on: 10/05/2017 10:59 PM »
The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

Everything depends on what the national goal will be, and we don't know what that will yet. And as has been proven many times, just having a goal doesn't mean that Congress will fund the effort.

Presidents have been wanting to go to Mars for decades, yet the cost of going there has been too high for Congress to agree to fund. As for returning to the Moon, the Constellation program was cancelled by Congress partially due to it's high cost, and nothing has changed since then.

So other than a new Administration being in power, what makes what V.P. Pence proposes more likely to happen than any other BEO plan in the past?

Perhaps because the "new space" companies (SpaceX, Blue Origin, ULA, OrbitalATK) are further along than before? There was no Falcon9R at the time of Constellation - what if there had been? What if NewGlenn, Vulcan, Antares, were as near to completion back then as they are today?

It seems like there was no talk of reducing launch prices, reusability, etc back in that time. Fortunately, now the conversation has expressly shifted towards the topic of reducing launch costs. Now suddenly that root issue is being attended to, and marketed to the public.

Is it Elon Musk who's mainly responsible for that?

Offline Star One

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #87 on: 10/05/2017 11:02 PM »
The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

Everything depends on what the national goal will be, and we don't know what that will yet. And as has been proven many times, just having a goal doesn't mean that Congress will fund the effort.

Presidents have been wanting to go to Mars for decades, yet the cost of going there has been too high for Congress to agree to fund. As for returning to the Moon, the Constellation program was cancelled by Congress partially due to it's high cost, and nothing has changed since then.

So other than a new Administration being in power, what makes what V.P. Pence proposes more likely to happen than any other BEO plan in the past?

Perhaps because the "new space" companies (SpaceX, Blue Origin, ULA, OrbitalATK) are further along than before? There was no Falcon9R at the time of Constellation - what if there had been? What if NewGlenn, Vulcan, Antares, were as near to completion back then as they are today?

It seems like there was no talk of reducing launch prices, reusability, etc back in that time. Fortunately, now the conversation has expressly shifted towards the topic of reducing launch costs. Now suddenly that root issue is being attended to, and marketed to the public.

Is it Elon Musk who's mainly responsible for that?

The commercial market now looks to be the most effective way to reach the moon and stay there at least for the US.

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #88 on: 10/05/2017 11:29 PM »
The commercial market now looks to be the most effective way to reach the moon and stay there at least for the US.

And that's why the US will likely establish a huge lead in space and retain it for quite some time. I can't imagine the space programs of other major powers suddenly going privatized like this, especially since only the US has a large enough domestic market to support it.

This could ignite a huge "Virtuous Cycle" of innovation and technological advancement - a major wave of change with ripple effects that transform the broader economy. It will probably require an emphasis on "access to space", just like the internet boom was driven by people and businesses "going online" and "getting on the superhighway" to seek value and opportunity.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 11:33 PM by sanman »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #89 on: 10/05/2017 11:41 PM »
I want my 2.5 hours of sleep back, but I look forward to seeing the policy that comes out of this.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #90 on: 10/06/2017 12:36 AM »
The commercial market now looks to be the most effective way to reach the moon and stay there at least for the US.

That may be so, but that is likely not a fundable program since it would leave out the use of the SLS. And as of today NASA is mandated to use the SLS by Congress.

This type of paradox is why I said that everything depends on what the national goal will be.

- If the goal is to find a use for the SLS, then the predominate space transportation systems will be the SLS and the Orion and what is accomplished on the Moon will be focused on what they can support. However, once NASA announces what the cost of operating the SLS & Orion are (which they haven't yet told Congress), I doubt this would be fundable.

- If the goal is to establish a scientific outpost on the Moon for the least practical cost, then commercial transportation systems will likely be chosen. But this would signal the end of the SLS for sure, which may not survive as a plan in Congress.

Personally I don't think the U.S. Congress is interested in spending money on sending U.S. Government employees back to the Moon, so at most I think Pence will try to get some program approved that mandates the use of the SLS and Orion - which could be the Deep Space Gateway, and it would be characterized as part of the path to returning to the Moon. But they only way it would be approved is without a program budget being approved in advance.

We'll see what happens next...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #91 on: 10/06/2017 12:46 AM »
The commercial market now looks to be the most effective way to reach the moon and stay there at least for the US.

That may be so, but that is likely not a fundable program since it would leave out the use of the SLS.

Hmm? Blue Origin will make ya a lander, just send money. SpaceX will deliver cargo direct to the surface under a COTS/CRS style deal. LMOrbitalATK will happily come to that party too. The usual suspects will put in proposals and maybe one or two will get a few bucks before dropping out. The brave astronauts (wrapped in cotton wool) can still launch on SLS/Orion and recreate Apollo and wrap themselves in the American flag. What's the problem?

The great thing about commercial space getting cheaper is that they don't threaten the pork. They're still living on scraps but they can do so much more with those scraps. If you're worried that SLS/Orion don't make any damn sense because you could just ride one of the much cheaper commercial vehicles, just make up something about human rating or NASA insight vs oversight. Throw enough red tape and paperwork at the new providers that they can't move faster than the old providers.

Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline su27k

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #92 on: 10/06/2017 02:24 AM »
So nobody picked up Griffin wants the military to go back to design and build their own launch vehicle instead of using commercial ones?

Is this guy evil or what?

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #93 on: 10/06/2017 02:43 AM »
So nobody picked up Griffin wants the military to go back to design and build their own launch vehicle instead of using commercial ones?

Is this guy evil or what?

When he said that, it seemed like he wanted the US govt to maintain/operate its own independent fleet. Does this automatically mean rockets of its own separate design? Couldn't the US govt simply buy vehicles from SpaceX, BlueOrigin, etc to operate on their own - particularly when the rockets from these companies represent the state-of-the-art in reusability?

Why reinvent the wheel, especially at considerable expense?
« Last Edit: 10/06/2017 02:46 AM by sanman »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #94 on: 10/06/2017 02:44 AM »
So nobody picked up Griffin wants the military to go back to design and build their own launch vehicle instead of using commercial ones?

I took it more as keeping ULA around even when they become 10x the price of SpaceX... because national security.

Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #95 on: 10/06/2017 02:51 AM »
So nobody picked up Griffin wants the military to go back to design and build their own launch vehicle instead of using commercial ones?

Is this guy evil or what?

When he said that, it seemed like he wanted the US govt to maintain/operate its own independent fleet. Does this automatically mean rockets of its own separate design? Couldn't the US govt simply buy vehicles from SpaceX, BlueOrigin, etc to operate on their own - particularly when the rockets from these companies represent the state-of-the-art in reusability?

Why reinvent the wheel, especially at considerable expense?

I don't know about any other providers, but SpaceX doesn't sell rockets.  They sell launch services.

There is a difference.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #96 on: 10/06/2017 02:55 AM »
Hmm? Blue Origin will make ya a lander, just send money. SpaceX will deliver cargo direct to the surface under a COTS/CRS style deal.

OK. Just because someone offers to do something doesn't mean that Congress will pay for it.

Quote
LMOrbitalATK will happily come to that party too.

I think you mean NGOrbitalATK (Northrop Grumman is buying Orbital ATK).

Quote
The usual suspects will put in proposals and maybe one or two will get a few bucks before dropping out. The brave astronauts (wrapped in cotton wool) can still launch on SLS/Orion and recreate Apollo and wrap themselves in the American flag. What's the problem?

The SLS and the Orion have to be fully funded, and only then will money be allocated for commercial capabilities. That won't leave much money.

Quote
The great thing about commercial space getting cheaper is that they don't threaten the pork.

To a certain degree that's true, or at least was true. I've always said that the SLS lives or dies based on whether the U.S. Government needs it, not whether there are lower cost commercial alternatives. But the SLS has only stayed alive because of a few in the Senate, yet a majority in the Senate and House have to agree to fund any long-term programs that rely on the SLS - and there are lots of debates about what money to spend and cut these days.

Quote
They're still living on scraps but they can do so much more with those scraps.

Agreed. And I think they only way we'll expand out into space is by the efforts of commercial companies, not due to the interest of the U.S. Government.

Quote
If you're worried that SLS/Orion don't make any damn sense because you could just ride one of the much cheaper commercial vehicles, just make up something about human rating or NASA insight vs oversight. Throw enough red tape and paperwork at the new providers that they can't move faster than the old providers.

It's not about me or you, Pence is talking about sending U.S. Government employees to the Moon, and they have to ride on U.S. Government certified transportation systems - and the POR's today are the SLS and Orion.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline su27k

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #97 on: 10/06/2017 03:03 AM »
So nobody picked up Griffin wants the military to go back to design and build their own launch vehicle instead of using commercial ones?

I took it more as keeping ULA around even when they become 10x the price of SpaceX... because national security.

That's one interpretation, but I'm not getting this vibe, if he wants to save ULA he would emphasize redundancy, at least two providers, etc. But what he said was military has their unique needs, so they need their unique vehicle.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #98 on: 10/06/2017 03:07 AM »
I think you mean NGOrbitalATK (Northrop Grumman is buying Orbital ATK).

Yep. Fingers aren't trained to that one yet.

Quote from: Coastal Ron
The SLS and the Orion have to be fully funded, and only then will money be allocated for commercial capabilities. That won't leave much money.

Commercial doesn't need much money. Blue Origin is willing to contribute their own money, so is SpaceX, it's totally reasonable to expect a LunarCOTS or better, I think.

Quote from: Coastal Ron
It's not about me or you, Pence is talking about sending U.S. Government employees to the Moon, and they have to ride on U.S. Government certified transportation systems - and the POR's today are the SLS and Orion.

... and nothing for landing. If boots on the Moon really becomes Pence's pet project then the only question is Congressional support - for which you can rely on Blue Origin lobbying. As I cynically said at 2 am this morning, there's really no reason for Blue to have a seat at these things. They have virtually no track record, don't sell any products yet, etc. The only reason they were there today, and testifying in Congress last week is that they've got people in Washington whispering in the right ears.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #99 on: 10/06/2017 03:10 AM »
That's one interpretation, but I'm not getting this vibe, if he wants to save ULA he would emphasize redundancy, at least two providers, etc. But what he said was military has their unique needs, so they need their unique vehicle.

Yeah, to be built and operated by the usual suspects, regardless of the cost. Griffin's position has always been that industry should build what the government tells them to build. It's not that he loves government and wants to give them power over industry, quite the opposite, it's that he thinks the customers is always right and should always get exactly what they ask for. In this case the customer is the military and they shouldn't ever skimp on getting what they need, even if there's an off-the-shelf solution that is 90% what they want.


Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #100 on: 10/06/2017 03:12 AM »
I don't know about any other providers, but SpaceX doesn't sell rockets.  They sell launch services.

There is a difference.

And that's another thing - I know there was a separate thread on it - but at some point it makes sense for launch providers to give way to carriers and OEMs. Once you have rockets that are sufficiently versatile, they can be used to cater to a variety of niche routes/mission-types. This could give rise to various carriers/operators who specialize in those routes/mission-types. Meanwhile, vehicle manufacturers could remain specialized in manufacturing of vehicles. There are shipping companies and there are shipbuilders. There are air carriers and there are aircraft manufacturers.

That may not seem like it's possible today, but by the time you have a space economy with "millions of people living and working in space", you're going to have to give way to that kind of specialization.
« Last Edit: 10/06/2017 03:39 AM by sanman »

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #101 on: 10/06/2017 03:21 AM »
I don't know about any other providers, but SpaceX doesn't sell rockets.  They sell launch services.

There is a difference.

And that's another thing - I know there was a separate thread on it - but at some point it makes sense for launch providers to give way to carriers and OEMs. Once you have rockets that are sufficiently versatile, they can be used to cater to a variety of niche routes/mission-types. This could give rise to various carriers/operators who specialize in those routes/mission-types. Meanwhile, vehicle manufacturers could remain specialized in manufacturing of vehicles. There are shipping companies and there are shipbuilders. There are air carriers and there are aircraft manufacturers.

That may not seem like it's possible today, but by the time you have a space economy with "millions of people living and working in space", you're going to have to give way to that kind of specialization.

Totally agreed.  But you have to build an economical launch system before you can then hand it off to "spacelines" and such operations-centric carriers.

And for right now, SpaceX-the-rocket-manufacturer has to get all of the revenues from SpaceX-the-launch-services-provider, to do all that expensive development.  Once the systems are developed, tested and in place, SpaceX can franchise and.or sell off the operations side and use the remaining revenue stream from it, and from selling spacecraft and launch vehicles to all the various carriers, in order to develop new technology.

But, as I say, for right now, being a total launch services provider (including designing and building the rockets) is the only way for the company to make enough revenue to pay for the development.
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline woods170

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #102 on: 10/06/2017 06:08 AM »
I want my 2.5 hours of sleep back, but I look forward to seeing the policy that comes out of this.

Wait? You actually expect policy to come from this? Seriously?

Policy isn't worth the paper it's written on when it's not funded. Just sayin'
« Last Edit: 10/06/2017 06:12 AM by woods170 »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #103 on: 10/06/2017 06:31 AM »
Wait? You actually expect policy to come from this? Seriously?

Sure, at least a doubling down of the existing hot air in the last authorization act.

Quote from: woods170
Policy isn't worth the paper it's written on when it's not funded. Just sayin'

The pork must flow.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline woods170

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #104 on: 10/06/2017 06:44 AM »
Wait? You actually expect policy to come from this? Seriously?

Sure, at least a doubling down of the existing hot air in the last authorization act.
That's not policy. That's is sticking to the status quo.

Policy isn't worth the paper it's written on when it's not funded. Just sayin'

The pork must flow.
Bah. The pork is flowing just fine by just sticking to the status quo. They don't need policy for that. Why would US Congress fund a new direction (back to the Moon) when the current direction (Rocket to nowhere) is good enough to ensure their re-election?

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #105 on: 10/06/2017 06:50 AM »
Why, *more* pork, of course.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #106 on: 10/06/2017 07:05 AM »
The pork must flow.

But that'll work now - because of the Kweesatz Haderach (literally, the One Who Provided the Shortcut - reusability)

Flowing pork through the new situation will now yield much better results than before

Offline Star One

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #107 on: 10/06/2017 02:28 PM »
So nobody picked up Griffin wants the military to go back to design and build their own launch vehicle instead of using commercial ones?

I took it more as keeping ULA around even when they become 10x the price of SpaceX... because national security.
If they wanted guaranteed access to space through the use of multiple launchers why not just have Space X & Blue Origin.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #108 on: 10/06/2017 03:21 PM »
So nobody picked up Griffin wants the military to go back to design and build their own launch vehicle instead of using commercial ones?

Is this guy evil or what?

Did you notice the deafening silence in the room after he said it?
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #109 on: 10/06/2017 04:11 PM »
The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

Everything depends on what the national goal will be, and we don't know what that will yet. And as has been proven many times, just having a goal doesn't mean that Congress will fund the effort.

Presidents have been wanting to go to Mars for decades, yet the cost of going there has been too high for Congress to agree to fund. As for returning to the Moon, the Constellation program was cancelled by Congress partially due to it's high cost, and nothing has changed since then.

So other than a new Administration being in power, what makes what V.P. Pence proposes more likely to happen than any other BEO plan in the past?

The difference this time could be that the private sector may go with or without the USG 'leadership' -- a forcing function that makes politicians worry that they may miss out on 'leading' (a.k.a., pork) and prestige (a.k.a., pork).  They may actually have to explain why so many US Dollars have been spent on so many wasted projects...   ...naaaah, that'l never happen.
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Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #110 on: 10/07/2017 01:37 AM »
I want my 2.5 hours of sleep back, but I look forward to seeing the policy that comes out of this.

Wait? You actually expect policy to come from this? Seriously?

Policy isn't worth the paper it's written on when it's not funded. Just sayin'

They have 45 days to make detailed recommendations to the President. I think that Pence takes his role seriously.

Quote
The Council accepted a recommendation by Pence that the U.S. “will lead in the return of humans to the moon for long-term exploration, followed by human missions to Mars and other destinations,” he said. That recommendation will be incorporated into a decision memo to be submitted to the president.

“You’ve got a big job ahead of you,” Pence said to NASA Acting Administrator Robert Lightfoot, representing the agency on the Council. “The Council is going to need the whole team at NASA to work with the Office of Management and Budget to provide the president with a recommended plan to fill that policy.” Pence asked that the plan be submitted within 45 days.

http://spacenews.com/national-space-council-calls-for-human-return-to-the-moon/
« Last Edit: 10/07/2017 01:38 AM by yg1968 »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #111 on: 10/07/2017 01:54 AM »
Let's hope that it's not a plan hammered out over a couple dozen long evenings and weekends... Only to be (ultimately) roundly ignored as most have been over the years :(
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Offline savuporo

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #112 on: 10/07/2017 03:56 AM »
Really the only question I have. Is this the moment for Resource Prospector to rise like a Phoenix?

It is a distant stepchild of the last "to the Moon, Alice" proclamation after all, otherwise known as RLEP-2
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline gosnold

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #113 on: 10/07/2017 09:47 AM »
A look back at previous Moon/Mars explorations plans by Eric Berger in Ars Technica:
Are we really going to the Moon? History isn’t kind to presidential plans
I would add to the part about the Obama administration what Blackstar told us here, that the failure to include Congress early in the process resulted in them taking back control of the program, and gave us SLS and Orion.

Online AncientU

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #114 on: 10/07/2017 12:57 PM »
A look back at previous Moon/Mars explorations plans by Eric Berger in Ars Technica:
Are we really going to the Moon? History isn’t kind to presidential plans
I would add to the part about the Obama administration what Blackstar told us here, that the failure to include Congress early in the process resulted in them taking back control of the program, and gave us SLS and Orion.

NASA is the proper venue for developing a technical plan.  How well it is vetted in Congress will have much sway on its fate.  So far, this administration doesn't have a good track record* of assembling a consensus on the Hill.

* Sorry for the gross understatement.
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Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #115 on: 10/07/2017 01:14 PM »
A look back at previous Moon/Mars explorations plans by Eric Berger in Ars Technica:
Are we really going to the Moon? History isn’t kind to presidential plans
I would add to the part about the Obama administration what Blackstar told us here, that the failure to include Congress early in the process resulted in them taking back control of the program, and gave us SLS and Orion.

I think this discussion needs to go into Space Policy, to be honest.   
« Last Edit: 10/07/2017 02:13 PM by Lar »
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #116 on: 10/07/2017 01:21 PM »
The US should have never switched its attention to Mars, talk about thinking you can run before you’ve even crawled.

Everything depends on what the national goal will be, and we don't know what that will yet. And as has been proven many times, just having a goal doesn't mean that Congress will fund the effort.

Presidents have been wanting to go to Mars for decades, yet the cost of going there has been too high for Congress to agree to fund. As for returning to the Moon, the Constellation program was cancelled by Congress partially due to it's high cost, and nothing has changed since then.

So other than a new Administration being in power, what makes what V.P. Pence proposes more likely to happen than any other BEO plan in the past?

The difference this time could be that the private sector may go with or without the USG 'leadership' -- a forcing function that makes politicians worry that they may miss out on 'leading' (a.k.a., pork) and prestige (a.k.a., pork).  They may actually have to explain why so many US Dollars have been spent on so many wasted projects...   ...naaaah, that'l never happen.
Commercial sector is close to starting robotic missons to moon with initial missions privately funded. With or without NASA leadership and government money commercial sector is going to moon. NASA  leader project with funding will help speed things up.

Offline Lar

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #117 on: 10/07/2017 02:13 PM »
I'd like this discussion to stay here so all can participate. The way to get that to happen is to not debate policy, and not make any statements about the various administrations and congresses that an outside observer would see as commentary about the merits. It's tough. But I hope you can do it.
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Online QuantumG

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #118 on: 10/08/2017 10:10 PM »
If they wanted guaranteed access to space through the use of multiple launchers why not just have Space X & Blue Origin.

If Blue would ever launch anything I'm sure it'd be seriously considered.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline savuporo

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #119 on: 10/08/2017 10:32 PM »
Commercial sector is close to starting robotic missons to moon with initial missions privately funded. With or without NASA leadership and government money commercial sector is going to moon....

Any day now, for real.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Blackstar

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #120 on: 10/09/2017 02:45 PM »
Really the only question I have. Is this the moment for Resource Prospector to rise like a Phoenix?

It is a distant stepchild of the last "to the Moon, Alice" proclamation after all, otherwise known as RLEP-2

That would actually be a good initial indicator of seriousness--they could fund the first step, and RP has been studied for years and could be given a development order.

One of the ways that the Bush administration sought to indicate that they were serious about the Vision for Space Exploration was to fund the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (I think that was at least $500 million). Now the administration later lost interest in its own initiative, but they did put some money in up-front. Notably, when the Obama administration announced their asteroid mission, they never actually put real money into it. They were told at several points that they should fund precursor missions, including an asteroid survey mission (essentially JPL's NEOCam), but they didn't do that. This was an indicator that they were not really interested in the mission and were simply talking about it as a smokescreen.

Offline DreamyPickle

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #121 on: 10/09/2017 02:56 PM »
Commercial sector is close to starting robotic missons to moon with initial missions privately funded. With or without NASA leadership and government money commercial sector is going to moon....

Any day now, for real.
While the private sector is offering better launcher options than in 2010 they're not going to the moon with their own money. Landings are only going to happen if NASA pays for them.

The best move here would be to fund robotic missions to investigate the feasibility of extracting hydrogen from permanently shadowed craters. This needs to proven to the point where lunar ISRU can be incorporated as a baseline assumption in all landing plans, like it is for Mars.

Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #122 on: 10/13/2017 02:06 AM »
An interesting article on the 45 day report requested by the National Space Council:
http://spacenews.com/nasa-to-leverage-current-planning-for-45-day-exploration-report/

Offline sanman

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #123 on: 10/13/2017 03:37 AM »
Supposing that some private entity could license the technology for Resource Prospector, just like Bigelow licensed Transhab, and then further develop it for NASA under contract?

It seems like Public-Private Partnership is yielding results that haven't been achieved under purely public or purely private auspices.


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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #125 on: 11/04/2017 12:49 PM »
Quote
Vice President Mike Pence met with Elon Musk, source says
By Elizabeth Landers, CNN
Updated 0201 GMT (1001 HKT) November 4, 2017

(CNN)Vice President Mike Pence discussed the National Space Council with entrepreneur and inventor Elon Musk during a trip to California last month, a source familiar with the meeting says.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/03/politics/mike-pence-elon-musk-space-x/index.html

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Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #127 on: 11/06/2017 12:31 PM »
Quote
Q&A: Plotting U.S. Space Policy with White House Adviser Scott Pace

The executive director of the National Space Council discusses the Trump administration’s plans to “make America great again”—in space

By Lee Billings on November 6, 2017

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-plotting-u-s-space-policy-with-white-house-adviser-scott-pace/

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #128 on: 11/06/2017 12:52 PM »
Thanks for posting the link: So everything hinges on reducing entitlement an non-discretionary spending... Easy stuff to pass on the hill. :o Good luck with that. I guess Pace doesn't consider BFR as heavy lift either... ???
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #129 on: 11/06/2017 01:20 PM »
I guess Pace doesn't consider BFR as heavy lift either... ???

I think he does consider BFR heavy-lift but doesn't want the government to be 'hostage' to one contractor. Personally, I don't buy that argument (eg even if the govt owned the IP, how practical is it to switch main contractors and get someone different to build it?).

More interesting to me is calling heavy lift rockets 'strategic national assets'. The US hasn't had heavy lift [Edit: I mean Saturn V class or greater] for over 40 years, but apparantly now it's strategic?
« Last Edit: 11/06/2017 01:27 PM by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline butters

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #130 on: 11/06/2017 01:28 PM »
Thanks for posting the link: So everything hinges on reducing entitlement an non-discretionary spending... Easy stuff to pass on the hill. :o Good luck with that. I guess Pace doesn't consider BFR as heavy lift either... ???

I think Scott Pace's "point" was more like: commercial heavy lift would be a monopoly, so the government would have to own the intellectual property to avoid being held hostage by the contractor, presumably SpaceX. I don't see how his premise would be true for any significant period of time if New Glenn is counted as heavy lift. So I suppose he's disregarding New Glenn as a credible alternative to SpaceX BFR. There is a substantial performance difference, to be fair. That's the only way it makes any sense.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #131 on: 11/06/2017 01:56 PM »
Yes, but how would he explain Boeing and Orbital/ATK when it comes to SLS?
« Last Edit: 11/06/2017 05:51 PM by Rocket Science »
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Offline Proponent

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #132 on: 11/06/2017 03:21 PM »
I think what Pace is saying is that the government owns the intellectual property for the SLS systems that Boeing and Orbital/ATK provide (is that true, by the way?), so if they get uppity, NASA can ask other contractors to bid on manufacturing the same design.

I would be surprised, though, if the government didn't have the power to substantially protect itself from being abused by monopoly supplier of heavy-lift launch services if it really wanted to.  Recall, for example, that at one point during the EELV program, the Air Force used should-cost accounting procedures to establish fair prices for the launch services it was buying.  It seems to have bungled that exercise pretty badly, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done right.

But the real whopper here is Pace's blithe claim that "heavy-lift rockets are strategic national assets."  Why?  The country has got by without heavy lift since the mid-1970's; the US government has yet to identify a need for heavy lift.  It certainly talks vaguely about doing things for which heavy lift could be used, but it has not even attempted to make the case that SLS-style heavy lift is necessary or even desirable for accomplishing those things.

EDIT:  Boring -> Boeing
« Last Edit: 11/06/2017 03:30 PM by Proponent »

Offline RonM

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #133 on: 11/06/2017 03:29 PM »
Yeah, unless SLS is required for some Air Force black project (heading into tinfoil hat territory with that idea), "heavy-lift rockets are strategic national assets" isn't a thing. Probably an excuse to keep the money flowing to big donors.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #134 on: 11/06/2017 03:30 PM »
I think what Pace is saying is that the government owns the intellectual property for the SLS systems that Boring and Orbital/ATK provide (is that true, by the way?), so if they get uppity, NASA can ask other contractors to bid on manufacturing the same design.

I would be surprised, though, if the government didn't have the power to substantially protect itself from being abused by monopoly supplier of heavy-lift launch services if it really wanted to.  Recall, for example, that at one point during the EELV program, the Air Force used should-cost accounting procedures to establish fair prices for the launch services it was buying.  It seems to have bungled that exercise pretty badly, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done right.

But the real whopper here is Pace's blithe claim that "heavy-lift rockets are strategic national assets."  Why?  The country has got by without heavy lift since the mid-1970's; the US government has yet to identify a need for heavy lift.  It certainly talks vaguely about doing things for which heavy lift could be used, but it has not even attempted to make the case that SLS-style heavy lift is necessary or even desirable for accomplishing those things.
In order to add; allow me to quote Mike Griffin from a few years back " We already have heavy lift and it is called the Shuttle"... Perhaps LM might be able to build the tankage but I think Orbital/ATK has a lock on the boosters. So we are always tied to same two-three contractors anyways..
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Offline AnalogMan

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #135 on: 11/06/2017 05:39 PM »
I think what Pace is saying is that the government owns the intellectual property for the SLS systems that Boring and Orbital/ATK provide (is that true, by the way?), so if they get uppity, NASA can ask other contractors to bid on manufacturing the same design.

I would be surprised, though, if the government didn't have the power to substantially protect itself from being abused by monopoly supplier of heavy-lift launch services if it really wanted to.  Recall, for example, that at one point during the EELV program, the Air Force used should-cost accounting procedures to establish fair prices for the launch services it was buying.  It seems to have bungled that exercise pretty badly, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done right.

But the real whopper here is Pace's blithe claim that "heavy-lift rockets are strategic national assets."  Why?  The country has got by without heavy lift since the mid-1970's; the US government has yet to identify a need for heavy lift.  It certainly talks vaguely about doing things for which heavy lift could be used, but it has not even attempted to make the case that SLS-style heavy lift is necessary or even desirable for accomplishing those things.
In order to add; allow me to quote Mike Griffin from a few years back " We already have heavy lift and it is called the Shuttle"... Perhaps LM might be able to build the tankage but I think Orbital/ATK has a lock on the boosters. So we are always tied to same two-three contractors anyways..

As a point of interest, NASA (MSFC) is currently canvassing the aerospace industry (via an RFI) on the production and operations of SLS Flight Set 3 through 6.  This would be concurrent with the completion of EM-1 and EM-2 by Boeing under their present contract.

The aim is to transition from DDT&E (Design, Development, Test, and Evaluation) activities during FS3-FS6 onto "build to print" by the time FS7 is due.

(RFI attached)

Offline Proponent

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #136 on: 11/06/2017 05:59 PM »
On further reflection, a better retort to Pace's worry about monopolistic behavior by a provider of heavy-lift launch services occurs to me.  Suppose NASA did contract with, say, SpaceX for heavy-lift launch services at a time when SpaceX held a monopoly on such.  And suppose SpaceX did try abuse its monopoly.  How much worse could it be than what's already happening with SLS?  I mean, first flight has slipped from about 2015 to, likely, 2020: at $2+ billion a year, that's an overrun of more than $10 billion.  And we haven't even got to the latest problems involving overweight launch platforms.

How much worse could a monopolistic SpaceX or Blue Origin or ULA be?

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #137 on: 11/06/2017 08:07 PM »
There was a ton of other stuff included in the article. Maybe you guys could try discussing that instead of beating the same old SLS/BFR hobby horse?

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #138 on: 11/06/2017 08:35 PM »
On further reflection, a better retort to Pace's worry about monopolistic behavior by a provider of heavy-lift launch services occurs to me.  Suppose NASA did contract with, say, SpaceX for heavy-lift launch services at a time when SpaceX held a monopoly on such.  And suppose SpaceX did try abuse its monopoly.  How much worse could it be than what's already happening with SLS?  I mean, first flight has slipped from about 2015 to, likely, 2020: at $2+ billion a year, that's an overrun of more than $10 billion.  And we haven't even got to the latest problems involving overweight launch platforms.

How much worse could a monopolistic SpaceX or Blue Origin or ULA be?

It was never slated for 2015.

Quote
(2) FLEXIBILITY.—The Space Launch System shall be
designed from inception as a fully-integrated vehicle capable
of carrying a total payload of 130 tons or more into low-Earth
orbit in preparation for transit for missions beyond low-Earth
orbit. The Space Launch System shall, to the extent practicable,
incorporate capabilities for evolutionary growth to carry heavier
payloads. Developmental work and testing of the core elements
and the upper stage should proceed in parallel subject to appropriations.
Priority should be placed on the core elements with
the goal for operational capability for the core elements not
later than December 31, 2016.
https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/outreach/nasa_auth_act_2010.pdf

A slip from December 2016 to May 2020 is 3 years and 5 months.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2017 08:36 PM by ncb1397 »

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #139 on: 11/06/2017 10:10 PM »
I guess Pace doesn't consider BFR as heavy lift either... ???

I think he does consider BFR heavy-lift but doesn't want the government to be 'hostage' to one contractor. Personally, I don't buy that argument (eg even if the govt owned the IP, how practical is it to switch main contractors and get someone different to build it?).

Yeah, that doesn't really hold water if the payloads you want to move are 50mT and less since there will be two American companies that could provide that service.

And in the case of relying on only one provider, the U.S. Government knows how to do that too, and it has done it before in the past - you provide economic incentives. Money does wonders.

Quote
More interesting to me is calling heavy lift rockets 'strategic national assets'. The US hasn't had heavy lift [Edit: I mean Saturn V class or greater] for over 40 years, but apparantly now it's strategic?

Yep. Something can only be a "strategic national asset" is there is a corresponding "strategic national need". And so far there isn't. But they are trying to back into one...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Proponent

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #140 on: 11/07/2017 12:17 AM »
It [SLS] was never slated for 2015.

Quote
(2) FLEXIBILITY.—The Space Launch System shall be designed from inception as a fully-integrated vehicle capable of carrying a total payload of 130 tons or more into low-Earth orbit in preparation for transit for missions beyond low-Earth orbit. The Space Launch System shall, to the extent practicable, incorporate capabilities for evolutionary growth to carry heavier payloads. Developmental work and testing of the core elements and the upper stage should proceed in parallel subject to appropriations. Priority should be placed on the core elements with the goal for operational capability for the core elements not later than December 31, 2016.
https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/outreach/nasa_auth_act_2010.pdf

A slip from December 2016 to May 2020 is 3 years and 5 months.

It was to be operational by the end of 2016; that implies test flights earlier, which the same authorization act in fact envisions.  Assuming, optimistically, the capability to fly once per year, that puts the first flight in late 2015 if not earlier.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #141 on: 11/07/2017 05:28 AM »
Yeah, unless SLS is required for some Air Force black project (heading into tinfoil hat territory with that idea), "heavy-lift rockets are strategic national assets" isn't a thing. Probably an excuse to keep the money flowing to big donors.

Agreed, it's basically a blatant attempt to make SLS uncancellable no matter what happens, even if we discover wrap drive tomorrow it would still be kept as strategic asset. Remember the national helium reserve was kept for nearly 100 years even though it's clear airship is a deadend after 10 years, I'm pretty sure Pace is trying to do the same with SLS.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #142 on: 11/07/2017 05:47 AM »
It [SLS] was never slated for 2015.

Quote
(2) FLEXIBILITY.—The Space Launch System shall be designed from inception as a fully-integrated vehicle capable of carrying a total payload of 130 tons or more into low-Earth orbit in preparation for transit for missions beyond low-Earth orbit. The Space Launch System shall, to the extent practicable, incorporate capabilities for evolutionary growth to carry heavier payloads. Developmental work and testing of the core elements and the upper stage should proceed in parallel subject to appropriations. Priority should be placed on the core elements with the goal for operational capability for the core elements not later than December 31, 2016.
https://spaceflight.nasa.gov/outreach/nasa_auth_act_2010.pdf

A slip from December 2016 to May 2020 is 3 years and 5 months.

It was to be operational by the end of 2016; that implies test flights earlier, which the same authorization act in fact envisions.  Assuming, optimistically, the capability to fly once per year, that puts the first flight in late 2015 if not earlier.
To me this appears to be all very off-topic for this thread.

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #143 on: 12/05/2017 07:37 PM »
Quote
Nield: for 45-day report on regulatory reform, we turned in a list of ideas to National Space Council. Offered our vision of a 21st century launch licensing process. #SpaceComExpo
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/938143011694895110

Quote
Nield: among the ideas include regulations that are performance based, and reviewing licensing much more quickly. #SpaceComExpo
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/938143292461592577

Quote
Nield: if we had more people at FAA/AST (currently about 100 people) could also speed up license reviews. #SpaceComExpo
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/938143608028491777

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #144 on: 12/05/2017 08:02 PM »
Anyone know when next meeting is planned?
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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #145 on: 12/06/2017 12:43 PM »
FAA submits its 45-day report:
Quote
FAA offers National Space Council ideas for launch licensing reforms
http://spacenews.com/faa-offers-national-space-council-ideas-for-launch-licensing-reforms/
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