Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 4, 2017 : DISCUSSION  (Read 18102 times)

Online wannamoonbase

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : November 28, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #40 on: 10/11/2017 08:15 PM »
November 28th per https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/ Sept 30 change.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.1440 says SLC-40 dating back to a change on 9th August but I cannot see source for that. sfn and launchphotography are not yet showing pad.

Is SLC-40 confirmed somewhere?

Yes. According official FCC application issued last week (3th Oct) SpaceX plans launch CRS-13 mission from Complex 40.

Then we should be seeing some roll out and testing in the next 2-4 weeks.
Excited to be finally into the first Falcon Heavy flow, we are getting so close!

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : November 28, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #41 on: 10/16/2017 11:54 AM »
As reported here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43976.msg1738038#msg1738038

Quote
SpaceX pitched the idea of a flown booster for CRS-13 to NASA and they will give them an answer in early November.

Source is a credible Reddit user.

A reused Dragon and a reused booster... I would love to see that :)
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Online envy887

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : November 28, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #42 on: 10/16/2017 02:13 PM »
As reported here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43976.msg1738038#msg1738038

Quote
SpaceX pitched the idea of a flown booster for CRS-13 to NASA and they will give them an answer in early November.

Source is a credible Reddit user.

A reused Dragon and a reused booster... I would love to see that :)

What exactly would NASA's motivation be to go with a used booster? It sounds like SpaceX is phasing out the discount, which was already so low that NASA probably wouldn't be very interested. Other customers would be interested in the schedule availability of a used booster, but to my understanding NASA already has #1 schedule priority.

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #43 on: 10/16/2017 02:26 PM »
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.

Online gongora

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #44 on: 10/16/2017 02:37 PM »
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.

Unless the contract explicitly allows the reflight of boosters, of course NASA has a right to refuse them.  The qualification process was for new boosters.

NASA could probably negotiate compensation from SpaceX for allowing the reuse of boosters, such as getting additional analysis/design/testing/data that would normally be paid for as additional "special studies" contracts, or getting addtional cargo mass/payload flexibility that would otherwise incur additional charges on a CRS flight (or even CCTCap test flights).

It would be great for SpaceX.  Other customers would see NASA accepting the refurbished boosters and it would provide a steady stream of launches for the refurbished boosters.  The uptake of refurbished boosters by customers is promising so far but there hasn't exactly been a stampede to switch to the used boosters.

Offline Mike_1179

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #45 on: 10/16/2017 02:41 PM »
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.

NASA is not a business. It's not trying to reduce costs or increase profits so that its shareholders get more. Part of its mandate is advancing the study aeronautics and space. Does allowing a US company to advance the study of hyersonic retropropulsion and orbital booster re-use align with those aims while still meeting the requirements of law requires them to do (ISS) while being good stewards of taxpayer money?

If it requires thousands of hours of civil-service employee time (which means it costs more), increases the cost of the flight or makes the risk of failure beyond what they see as acceptable, then of course you can see why they'd refuse to allow a re-flown booster. Even if there is no direct link between this re-use and cheaper CRS flights in the future, it is in the interest of NASA to support it at a reasonable level.
« Last Edit: 10/16/2017 02:42 PM by Mike_1179 »

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #46 on: 10/16/2017 02:58 PM »
Unless the contract explicitly allows the reflight of boosters, of course NASA has a right to refuse them.  The qualification process was for new boosters.
And yet we've heard many times on this site from people who appear to know what they are talking about is that NASA paid for delivery of cargo to the station, not for specific boosters or rides.  Unless you've seen the contract, how do you know?  I'm not claiming to know, by the way, because I don't.  That's why I asked the question.

Anyway, at some point I firmly believe it will happen (yes, without specific knowledge of the contract), but I think CRS-13 is likely too soon.

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #47 on: 10/16/2017 04:53 PM »
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.

NASA can refuse if it feels the vehicle is not safe or ready based on its insights on the vehicle design and production. I don't think they can refuse just because it's reused or demand price reduction for a reused booster, since the price is written in the contract but the launch vehicle is not. We have seen both providers changing launch vehicle several times in the past, so I don't think it's a big deal, just need some work on both sides.

Online rockets4life97

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #48 on: 10/16/2017 06:07 PM »
The CRS contracts are a major part of SpaceX's future manifest. If all those flights move to flight proven cores that will be a major win for SpaceX and re-use.

Online ChrisGebhardt

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #49 on: 10/16/2017 06:11 PM »
For reference to the conversation here about CRS-13 using a flight-proven core...

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/10/spacex-zuma-iridium-4-aims-vandenberg-landing/

Basically, all engineering and data reviews have cleared CRS missions to use once-flown Falcon 9 boosters that performed LEO-only missions.  It's with NASA management for the final yes/no decision at this point.

Final public decision expected early November.

Offline mn

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #50 on: 10/16/2017 09:40 PM »
... since the price is written in the contract but the launch vehicle is not...

Do we know for a fact what is in the contract?

Offline Formica

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #51 on: 10/17/2017 12:14 AM »
... since the price is written in the contract but the launch vehicle is not...

Do we know for a fact what is in the contract?

In terms of price, yes. The initial twelve launches were contracted for $1.6 billion, and the five extension missions were contracted at $700 million. So, about $135.3 million per launch if you combine the original contract with the extension.

The conventional wisdom seems to be that the contracts specify new boosters, but I have not yet come across documentation that specifies this one way or another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Resupply_Services
http://spacenews.com/spacex-wins-5-new-space-station-cargo-missions-in-nasa-contract-estimated-at-700-million/

Edit: section 18.3, page 31 of the following document is the most relevant text I've found so far with regard to new vs. used boosters. It does not explicitly describe that specific scenario, but it discusses NASA's rights under the contract to evaluate the fitness of the vehicle used to fulfill the contract. Beyond that, the contract doesn't seem to discuss or account for new or used launch vehicles.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/418855main_oc_nnj09ga02b.pdf
« Last Edit: 10/17/2017 12:59 AM by Formica »

Online deruch

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #52 on: 10/17/2017 03:49 AM »
From the "Customers Views on Reuse" thread:

Back on topic.  In NASA's pre-launch briefing for CRS-10, Dan Hartman--Deputy Manager, ISS Program--addressed NASA's near term plans for reusing the Dragon capsule and future plans for reuse of the Falcon 9 boosters in response to a question from Stephen Clark from SFN.

Quote from: Dan Hartman, NASA Dep. Manager ISS Program
Our plan for CRS-11, it's going to be the Dragon [that will be reused].  Not the Falcon, not a reused booster.  We've done a lot of work with SpaceX, over the last year and a half or two, looking at delta-verification requirements that we need to be comfortable to satisfy ourselves that Dragon can approach the ISS, get within the ellipsoid, and be done safely.  So, a lot of technical work is happening.  I'll tell you, everything is leaning good.  That the next dragon mission that we'll launch will be reused. 
     As far as the booster, we've just started those discussions.  We've got some teams off generating how we'll even go about requesting information from SpaceX.  Laying out our plan.  I imagine we'll have some sort of preliminary review on that in the April/May time period.   I think planning-wise, it may not happen this year.  But shortly thereafter.

The exchange can be found at time mark 22m:25s in the below youtube video.




The fact that NASA has been in the process of determining exactly what needs review and how to go about approving the use of flight proven cores isn't new information.  That they may be in a position to approve using one this year is.
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Online vaporcobra

TSIS confirmed to be launching on CRS-13, as well as a fancy conflicting launch date :)

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TSIS is an International Space Station-bound instrument that will measure the sun's energy input to Earth. TSIS was build by LASP, integrated at Kennedy Space Center, and will launch in November on a SpaceX Falcon 9.

Just a fun Instagram account to follow in general, too!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BaZHxh6D3hF/


Online ChrisGebhardt

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #54 on: 10/18/2017 10:32 PM »
NET 4 December at 1952 GMT (1452 EST) according to Spaceflightnow.

Offline Raul

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : early Dec 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #55 on: Today at 11:55 AM »
NASA Patch for SpX-13 mission

Online ChrisGebhardt

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 4, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #56 on: Today at 12:40 PM »
Per article on site, if NASA management approves flight-proven boosters for CRS missions, CRS-13 will use the CRS-11 booster from June of this year.

Online jacqmans

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 4, 2017 : DISCUSSION
« Reply #57 on: Today at 12:45 PM »
NET 4 December at 1952 GMT (1452 EST) according to Spaceflightnow.

ESA confirms the Dec 04 launch date..

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