Author Topic: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3  (Read 106515 times)

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #220 on: 07/18/2017 05:51 PM »
In response to Tory's tweet:

Quote
The cornerstone to the CST-100 Launch Vehicle Adapter. Designed by @ulalaunch engineer Phil Echelman. The Starliner attaches to this ring!

https://twitter.com/tylerrogers82/status/887358505723625474

Offline Norm38

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #221 on: 07/20/2017 07:52 PM »

I'm curious... By what metrics do you think it (Starliner) is more impressive?

Landing location.

A question on this:  The Boeing mission animation shows the landing as being out in the desert somewhere.  What kind of accuracy are they expecting?  To have it come down at a spaceport on a pad or runway would be impressive.  But if it's no more accurate than a water landing, is there really a benefit?
Compared to a water landing, I see two extra mission critical events, with related FEMA issues.  1, heat shield has to detach and can't detach early.  2, airbags have to inflate.

A desert landing prevents salt water intrusion, but that only matters if the capsule is getting reused.  And in the Dragon 2 thread, it was mentioned that NASA hasn't signed off on reuse.  I guess it's cheaper to roll a truck than a recovery ship.  Anything else?
« Last Edit: 07/20/2017 07:53 PM by Norm38 »

Offline Ike17055

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #222 on: 07/20/2017 11:26 PM »
SO what happened to the original posts on this topic where Jim's comments (and who incidentally consistently offers the most worthwhile -- if not always popular -- observations on this site) apparently offered some interesting-looking commentary in response to other comments?  since we get way too little info on starliner to begin with, perhaps forum administrators could cut posters just a little slack rather than editing everything that seems remotely adversarial (especially when it involves something other than cannonizing Elon).

Offline Robby the Robot

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #223 on: 07/20/2017 11:53 PM »
A water landing likely involves Navy assets for recovery operations, which may be an issue for non-NASA crew flights (e.g commercial orbital flights or non-NASA space stations). Land landing does not have this issue.

Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #224 on: 07/21/2017 12:52 AM »
A water landing likely involves Navy assets for recovery operations, which may be an issue for non-NASA crew flights (e.g commercial orbital flights or non-NASA space stations). Land landing does not have this issue.
The Navy can't be rented by private companies. Any recovery would be totally private.

Offline Norm38

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #225 on: 07/21/2017 01:01 AM »
SO what happened to the original posts on this topic where Jim's comments (and who incidentally consistently offers the most worthwhile -- if not always popular -- observations on this site) apparently offered some interesting-looking commentary in response to other comments?

I brought the quote over here from the Elon Musk Keynote thread, because my question was OT. You can see the full discussion there.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42615.msg1704384#msg1704384

P.S.  If you click on the hyperlink of a quote, it will take you to the original post.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2017 01:09 AM by Norm38 »

Offline JazzFan

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #226 on: 07/21/2017 01:24 AM »
A water landing likely involves Navy assets for recovery operations, which may be an issue for non-NASA crew flights (e.g commercial orbital flights or non-NASA space stations). Land landing does not have this issue.
The Navy can't be rented by private companies. Any recovery would be totally private.

Odd, the Navy had no problem with renting and allocating military resources and assets for making of movies like, Pearl Harbor (I was there), Top Gun, etc.  I would suggest that the Navy does not make strategic plans around these types of events, but leasing a dock or landing ship may not be out of the question.  Its a matter of how deep pockets SpaceX has.  Even small Navy ships have operating costs well over a million per day.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #227 on: 07/21/2017 05:59 AM »
A desert landing prevents salt water intrusion, but that only matters if the capsule is getting reused.  And in the Dragon 2 thread, it was mentioned that NASA hasn't signed off on reuse.  I guess it's cheaper to roll a truck than a recovery ship.  Anything else?

Boeing is only building three capsules. Each capsule is designed to be reused up to ten times, so land landing makes that far easier to do.

https://phys.org/news/2016-08-boeing-flightworthy-starliner-crew-taxi.html
« Last Edit: 07/21/2017 06:02 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #228 on: 08/03/2017 05:37 PM »
Quote
Ground control to major console: Mesa completes space dashboard

When two test pilot astronauts head into space aboard Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft, they won’t just be looking out the windows to catch an array of breathtaking views.

It will be all business as they focus on the data coming off a console originally imagined and designed by a team in Houston, and later refined and built by a small team in Mesa, Ariz. The dashboard of displays, instruments and controls will be within arm’s reach of the spacecraft’s commander and pilot, much like the flight deck of a 747 aircraft or the cockpit in an Apache helicopter.

Operating on a rigorous timeline and working through challenges unique to human spaceflight, members of Mesa’s Metals Center of Excellence, Electrical Center of Excellence and engineering organization came together to complete the design and manufacture in just less than a year. This innovation shows the power of pulling ingenuity from across the Boeing network.

The Mesa team also built a console that is hooked up to the Florida Systems Integration Lab, where engineers are running through mission simulations and testing flight software. Building will begin soon on the third and final console for the spacecraft that is slated to fly the uncrewed orbital demonstration mission before it turns around for multiple NASA missions to the space station.

Starliner’s first crew flight test to the International Space Station in 2018 will be Boeing’s first commercial flight transporting humans to space.

http://beyondearth.com/ground-control-to-major-console-mesa-completes-space-dashboard/

Edit: found higher res photo
« Last Edit: 08/03/2017 05:40 PM by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Alpha Control

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #229 on: 08/03/2017 09:29 PM »
Quote
Ground control to major console: Mesa completes space dashboard

When two test pilot astronauts head into space aboard Boeing’s CST-100 Starliner spacecraft, they won’t just be looking out the windows to catch an array of breathtaking views.

It will be all business as they focus on the data coming off a console originally imagined and designed by a team in Houston, and later refined and built by a small team in Mesa, Ariz. The dashboard of displays, instruments and controls will be within arm’s reach of the spacecraft’s commander and pilot, much like the flight deck of a 747 aircraft or the cockpit in an Apache helicopter.

Operating on a rigorous timeline and working through challenges unique to human spaceflight, members of Mesa’s Metals Center of Excellence, Electrical Center of Excellence and engineering organization came together to complete the design and manufacture in just less than a year. This innovation shows the power of pulling ingenuity from across the Boeing network.

The Mesa team also built a console that is hooked up to the Florida Systems Integration Lab, where engineers are running through mission simulations and testing flight software. Building will begin soon on the third and final console for the spacecraft that is slated to fly the uncrewed orbital demonstration mission before it turns around for multiple NASA missions to the space station.

Starliner’s first crew flight test to the International Space Station in 2018 will be Boeing’s first commercial flight transporting humans to space.

http://beyondearth.com/ground-control-to-major-console-mesa-completes-space-dashboard/

Edit: found higher res photo

Interesting. The console layout is very "shuttle-like" to me (not a negative; just an observation).  Lots of metal toggle switches, with the two protective bars on either side of a switch (to prevent accidental activation from a gloved hand), along with a number of push buttons. Insets for flat panel screens.

That contrasts with the SpX approach of a mostly touch screen interface, with only a few physical controls.  Have any of the potential pilots expressed a preference one way or the other?
Space launches attended:
Antares/Cygnus ORB-D1 Wallops Island, VA Sept 2013 | STS-123 KSC, FL March 2008 | SpaceShipOne Mojave, CA June 2004

Offline Jim

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #230 on: 08/03/2017 09:38 PM »

Interesting. The console layout is very "shuttle-like" to me (not a negative; just an observation).  Lots of metal toggle switches, with the two protective bars on either side of a switch (to prevent accidental activation from a gloved hand), along with a number of push buttons. Insets for flat panel screens.

That contrasts with the SpX approach of a mostly touch screen interface, with only a few physical controls.  Have any of the potential pilots expressed a preference one way or the other?

most are circuit breakers or on or off

Offline adrianwyard

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #231 on: 08/03/2017 10:20 PM »
Is it just me or are these toggle switches confusing? Without the arrow I'm sure everyone would say that 'On' is up - but the arrow next to 'On' points points down, so which is it? Or maybe that's not an arrow?

Online TrevorMonty

Physical controls are easier to use than touch screens, with gloves and especially during launch.

Offline whitelancer64

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Offline Jorge

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #234 on: 08/04/2017 04:54 AM »
Is it just me or are these toggle switches confusing? Without the arrow I'm sure everyone would say that 'On' is up - but the arrow next to 'On' points points down, so which is it? Or maybe that's not an arrow?

The arrows indicate a spring-loaded momentary switch that returns to center after being deflected, as opposed to a toggle switch that stays in the deflected position. NASA used this switch label convention on both the space shuttle and ISS, so astronauts are already familiar with it.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #235 on: 08/04/2017 05:41 AM »
Here's the abort switch, that if used will be the first time its tested in flight above ground.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #236 on: 08/04/2017 05:43 AM »
Is it just me or are these toggle switches confusing? Without the arrow I'm sure everyone would say that 'On' is up - but the arrow next to 'On' points points down, so which is it? Or maybe that's not an arrow?

The arrows indicate a spring-loaded momentary switch that returns to center after being deflected, as opposed to a toggle switch that stays in the deflected position. NASA used this switch label convention on both the space shuttle and ISS, so astronauts are already familiar with it.
Been waiting for you to come around Jorge. Me and lots of others wish it was more often.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #237 on: 08/04/2017 09:47 PM »
Welcome back, Jorge!
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Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #238 on: 09/07/2017 02:19 PM »
Quote
Starliner to Start “Hot Fire” Engine Tests in New Mexico

A test version of the CST-100 Starliner — Boeing’s Crew Space Transportation vehicle — will soon begin a series of “hot fire” tests at NASA’s White Sand Facility in New Mexico. Boeing is building the Starliner for NASA to transport astronauts to and from the International Space Station, with a first crewed flight test scheduled for next year.

The Starliner houses a single propulsion system that supports all the spacecraft’s propulsion needs from ascent until deorbit burn after its departure from the space station. System capabilities will include maneuvering in space, or contingency abort scenarios, a feature that distinguishes Starliner from its Mercury, Gemini, Apollo and space shuttle predecessors.

The testing campaign will consist of simulated propellant flow rates for all mission scenarios; a fuel-loading demonstration; and hot fire tests that will include orbital maneuvers like docking with the space station, abort scenarios, and re-entering Earth’s atmosphere.

The test module is one of three Starliner qualification test vehicles, including the structural test article, which is undergoing lab tests in Huntington Beach, Calif., and Spacecraft 1, which will be ground-tested before flying a simulated abort from a launch pad over the New Mexico desert.

http://beyondearth.com/starliner-to-start-hot-fire-engine-tests-in-new-mexico/?sf112107808=1

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Boeing's CST-100 - Master Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #239 on: 09/26/2017 05:32 PM »
Doesn’t sound very confident of crewed flight in 2018:

Quote
Chris Ferguson, Boeing: on track do at least uncrewed CST-100 test flight next year and “ideally” crewed test flight as well. #IAC2017

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/912534994211368960

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