Author Topic: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket  (Read 19046 times)

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #20 on: 07/13/2016 05:22 AM »
Putin would like to see a RUSSIAN SHLV

That's news to me. Is there a reference of Putin actually saying he would like Russia to have a SHLV?
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #21 on: 07/15/2016 05:43 AM »
Putin would like to see a RUSSIAN SHLV

That's news to me. Is there a reference of Putin actually saying he would like Russia to have a SHLV?
Yes, but they are in RUSSIAN :)
Alternatively some info here http://www.russianspaceweb.com/superheavy.html
« Last Edit: 07/15/2016 05:46 AM by fregate »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #22 on: 07/22/2016 02:38 PM »
Stephen,
Russian budget for a next decade has a lot of "Easter eggs" hidden behind creatively named R&D projects.
For instance:
- an original R&D Phoenix project had been lobbied by Samara Rocket Space Center "Progress" to get funding for a new EELV Soyuz series with MethanLOX propulsion on all stages (known as Soyuz V);
- due to deterioration of Ukrainian-Russian relationships since 2014, Roscosmos cancelled Zenit LV orders and decided to ditch Sea Launch, so the same  R&D Phoenix project in Federal State Program now has an objective to design a 100% Russian replacement for Zenit (most likely with RD-171M on first stage with LV stages diamaeter 4.1 m);
- recently revived dormant (since 2004) joined Russian and Kazakh Baiterek project (transisioned from Anagara to Zenit to Proton Lite) assumed development of  new EELV with Kazakh name (wait for it) that translate as "FALCON";
- FSP also assumes that first stage of EELV  R&D Phoenix project would be used as a baseline for SHLV boosters (4,6 or even 8 depending on configuration). 

It's a black ops mentality - we wish one thing, but outcome might be rather different.

Stay tuned - I suspect that a temporary replacement of Zenit by Proton Light could have much longer shelf life than anticipated.   
I'll hopefully see you in Sep of the next year on IAC'17 Forum.   
« Last Edit: 07/22/2016 02:39 PM by fregate »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #23 on: 08/07/2016 09:15 AM »

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #24 on: 08/07/2016 09:16 AM »

Offline asmi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #25 on: 08/07/2016 04:29 PM »
I wonder who do they plan to fit 2 RD-0124's under stage as each of them has 4 nozzles already. Wanna see that!

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #26 on: 08/07/2016 05:30 PM »
I wonder who do they plan to fit 2 RD-0124's under stage as each of them has 4 nozzles already. Wanna see that!
It looks approximately so:

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #27 on: 08/07/2016 05:39 PM »
So, it is a custom version with specially arranged nozzles?
What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #28 on: 08/07/2016 05:48 PM »
So, it is a custom version with specially arranged nozzles?

I think so

What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?

Most likely, these engines will be used with minimum alterations. There are hints on the fact that for a first stage RD-180 will be chosen.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #29 on: 08/08/2016 02:44 AM »
So, it is a custom version with specially arranged nozzles?

I think so

What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?

Most likely, these engines will be used with minimum alterations. There are hints on the fact that for a first stage RD-180 will be chosen.
So, basically, they are trading two RD-180 or 1 RD-171M, with two RD-180 looking more attractive? Wouldn't propulsion alone cost something like 30M? Can Voronezh drop the price enough to make it worth?

Offline asmi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #30 on: 08/08/2016 12:39 PM »
What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?
It says "it's possible to use two RD-180's instead of a single RD-171M".
« Last Edit: 08/08/2016 01:08 PM by asmi »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #31 on: 08/08/2016 05:39 PM »
What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?
It says "it's possible to use two RD-180's instead of a single RD-171M".
also by making more RD-180s then price will drop some. Also the new manufacturing processes and updates for 3D printing of nozzles and parts will further reduce employee man-hours cost and manufacturing cost per engine produced.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2016 05:40 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #32 on: 08/22/2016 09:31 AM »
https://www.rt.com/news/356699-russia-heavy-rocket-moon/

So, now the new plan is to discard the 4 launch Angara-5v architecture for yet another HLV. I vaguely recall the HLV being the prime option some 10 years ago, being dropped when the design process required real money to be allocated.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #33 on: 08/22/2016 09:56 AM »
Article in Izvestia by Ivan Cheberko - Angara A5V is cancelled!
Long live the Super Heavy Launch Vehicle with Rd-171м engines
On first stage boosters.
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Kryten

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #34 on: 08/22/2016 02:23 PM »
Article in Izvestia by Ivan Cheberko - Angara A5V is cancelled!
Long live the Super Heavy Launch Vehicle with Rd-171м engines
On first stage boosters.
http://izvestia.ru/news/628028

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #35 on: 09/14/2016 08:23 AM »
http://izvestia.ru/news/628767

Izvestiya story (25 August) : Roskosmos proposing Kazakhstan to fly Feniks from Baikonur under the name Sunkar in the framework of the Baiterek programme. First test flight in 2024, start of commercial operations in 2025, marketing to be performed by ILS.  Vehicle to be built by Progress in Samara with support of Khrunichev and the Makeyev Centre, prime contractor to be RKK Energiya.

http://izvestia.ru/news/632286
Izvestiya story (14 September) : Start of Feniks commercial operations in 2025 should mark the end of Proton Lite/Medium flights under Baiterek in the period 2020-2025.

Offline Mike Jones

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #36 on: 08/11/2017 03:09 PM »
Energia has been officially confirmed by Roscosmos as Prime contractor for Soyuz 5 launch vehicle development. Maiden flight in 2022 from Baikonur.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/23906/

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #37 on: 08/14/2017 11:32 PM »
But this Soyuz-5 rocket is not Fenix - wasn't Fenix/Phoenix supposed to use Methane as fuel? It seems like a future MethaLox is now called Soyuz-7, unless Google Translate really messed up my translation.

This whole Fenix/Sunkar/Soyuz-5 business is so confusing...

Energia has been officially confirmed by Roscosmos as Prime contractor for Soyuz 5 launch vehicle development. Maiden flight in 2022 from Baikonur.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/23906/

I had assumed that TsSKB-Progress "owned" the Soyuz line name, and would therefore be the prime contractor on Soyuz-5, but this is apparently not the case.  ???
« Last Edit: 08/14/2017 11:35 PM by Lars-J »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #38 on: 08/15/2017 12:07 AM »
But this Soyuz-5 rocket is not Fenix - wasn't Fenix/Phoenix supposed to use Methane as fuel? It seems like a future MethaLox is now called Soyuz-7, unless Google Translate really messed up my translation.

This whole Fenix/Sunkar/Soyuz-5 business is so confusing...

Energia has been officially confirmed by Roscosmos as Prime contractor for Soyuz 5 launch vehicle development. Maiden flight in 2022 from Baikonur.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/23906/

I had assumed that TsSKB-Progress "owned" the Soyuz line name, and would therefore be the prime contractor on Soyuz-5, but this is apparently not the case.  ???
it is Soyuz-5 by naming convention of Roscosmos. Fenix/Sunkar are R&D project/tender names, whereas Soyuz-5 is operational.official name. Soyuz-5 Methane is a separate project that was placed on the Backburner because Roscomos needed a man-rated Zenit-Soyuz-2 replacement ASAP as Angara-5P was officially cut as the launcher for the PTK launches due to Angara-A5's manufacturing and underperformance "teething" issues that have led to the need develop Angara-5M as a stepping stone to Angara-5V before any launches out of Vostochny.

Explanation can be found here: http://russianspaceweb.com/soyuz5-lv-ptk.html

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #39 on: 08/15/2017 09:05 PM »
Here's some more background.
Several years ago RKTs Progress in Samara proposed a new family of launch vehicles called Soyuz-5 that would burn LOX/methane : Soyuz-5.1 (9 tonnes to LEO), Soyuz-5.2. (16 tonnes to LEO) and Soyuz-5.3. (25/26 tonnes to LEO). The plans were first presented at the Paris air show in 2013 and were incorporated into a Roskosmos study known as "Magistral".

In the spring of 2015 Roskosmos announced that the development of a new medium-lift rocket would be included in the Federal Space Program for 2016-2015. The name of the R&D phase of this project (in Russian : OKR - opytno-konstruktorskiye raboty, something like "experimental design work") was Feniks (Russian for "Phoenix"). The focus was now on the development of a 17-tonne class booster, the first stage of which could later evolve into the strap-on boosters of a heavy-lift launch vehicle. After the announcement RKTs Progress initially seems to have continued work on a LOX/methane rocket, but eventually opted for an all LOX/kerosene rocket with the RD-171M engine on the first stage. In the absence of a name, many (including space officials themselves) began to refer to the rocket itself as Feniks, although that strictly speaking was the name of the OKR.

The name Sunkar (Kazakh for "Falcon") first surfaced in August 2016, when Roskosmos proposed Kazakhstan to fly the rocket from Baikonur under the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture. Finally, at a meeting in Sochi on May 22 this year Putin and space officials approved a proposal by RKTs Progress to name the rocket Soyuz-5, the same name originally used for the family of LOX/methane boosters.

Putting it all together :

- Feniks is the name of the OKR under Federal Space Program 2016-2025 to develop a new medium-lift launch vehicle
- Soyuz-5 is the general name for the rocket itself (for launches from Baikonur, Vostochnyy, Sea Launch)
- Sunkar is the Kazakh name to be used for the rockets flown from Baikonur

RKK Energia chief Vladimir Solntsev has said there will be no basic differences between the versions flown from the three launch sites.

By the way, while Solntsev as well as Roscosmos head Igor Komarov have stated on several occasions that Soyuz-5 will fly from the Sea Launch platform, the S7 Group that now owns Sea Launch has never confirmed this. S7 has been very secretive about its intentions, but the Ukrainian Yuzhmash company announced in June that it had signed a deal with S7 to build 12 Zenit rockets for S7. Several days ago it was reported that Zenit will be flying from the Sea Launch platform until 2023. Any hopes that Roskosmos may have had about S7 investing in the development of Soyuz-5 have probably evaporated by now.

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