Author Topic: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket  (Read 19077 times)

Offline Dante80

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Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« on: 01/03/2016 01:43 AM »
Quote
MOSCOW, December 30. /TASS/.

Russia has begun the work on the creation of a super-heavy space rocket, its first step will be the Fenix rocket, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in an interview with the Rossiya-24 TV channel. "In fact, the work on the new space program has been started, I tell you this as some serious news on the super-heavy rocket," the deputy prime minister said.

The official said that if the Angara rocket is like a jeep capable of taking to orbit 7 tons of payload in the light variant and up to 37 tons ó in the heavy variant, then for major expeditions it is necessary to have a "dump truck." "The super-heavy rocket will be such "dump truck", but we are getting down to its creation like the Soviet Union had embarked on such project ó first it created the Zenit rocket that was the first stage of the super-heavy rocket Energia, and only after that additional modules were created for such unique rocket," he said. "We are now creating it on a totally new technology basis, and the creation of the Fenix rocket, which will become the first stage of the super-heavy rocket, is envisaged in the new federal space program.

Rogozin added that the payload capacity of this rocket will exceed 100 tons, and maybe even 150 tons. Read also Russia looking for ways to minimize spending on spacecraft launches ó deputy PM Russia carries out 29 launches of carrier rockets this year ó space corporation On Tuesday, a source in the space rocket industry said that plans for creating a new generation space rocket Fenix remained on the agenda of the Russian space agency Roscosmos and had been included in the draft of the federal space programme for 2016-2025 despite certain cuts in budget financing. "Research and development under the Fenix project has been preserved in the draft of the federal space programme, which is undergoing inter-departmental coordination. True, the possibility of removing Fenix from the programme was discussed at a certain point, but for now this promising project has remained relevant," the source said.

 Fenix is part and parcel of a product research and development portfolio, its eventual aim being creation of a new space rocket for manned programmes. The Zenit-size rocket may be built according to a modular principle and consist of several modules. A super-heavy configuration is a possibility. The RD-171 engine from NPO Energomash, already used in the Zenit rocket, is regarded as a potential first stage. The previous federal space program draft extending till 2025 envisages feasibility studies for developing a medium class space rocket during 2016-2017. Research and development was due to begin as of 2018.

Under the project Roscosmos in 2018 through 2025 was to spend more than 30 billion roubles ($430 million) for the purpose. According to earlier reports, the budget financing of the federal space programme would be slashed from 2.004 trillion to 1.4 trillion.


http://tass.ru/en/science/847810
« Last Edit: 08/15/2017 03:26 AM by gongora »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #1 on: 01/03/2016 02:06 AM »
This doesn't make much sense. How can Russia develop the super heavy Fenix launcher when its space budget has been cut by 30%?
« Last Edit: 01/03/2016 02:07 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Serpentuspl

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #2 on: 01/03/2016 11:05 AM »
Hello from Poland - it is easy: after creating large corporation from Roscosmos and joining a number of companies into one company called United Rocket and Space Corporation (URSC), employment will be reduced from 250 000 to 196 000 in 2020.  Also Russia is going to reduce their moon exploration program: Deputy Director of the Space Research Institute at the Russian Academy of Sciences Oleg Korablyov stated on 29 December 2015 that all manned missions to moon are suspended. It is worth to mention that many Russian statements is nothing more than soviet style propaganda.

Offline owais.usmani

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #3 on: 01/03/2016 01:08 PM »
This doesn't make much sense. How can Russia develop the super heavy Fenix launcher when its space budget has been cut by 30%?

Budget cuts would mean that it is delayed by 1 or maybe 2 decades. They will eventually develop it in this century.

Offline The Amazing Catstronaut

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #4 on: 01/03/2016 01:21 PM »

Budget cuts would mean that it is delayed by 1 or maybe 2 decades. They will eventually develop it in this century.

Government development times that long don't end up happening.  The whole concept will be outdated by the time they manufacture the design. Fenix won't happen.
Resident feline spaceflight expert. Knows nothing of value about human spaceflight.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #5 on: 01/03/2016 01:43 PM »
Actually, the project Fenix starts by the creation of the Soyuz-5 vehicle, which should slash launch cost for Russia. Then, they have the option of developing a SHLV by using the Soyuz-5.3 boosters and developing a big core and upper stage.

Offline dror

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #6 on: 01/03/2016 02:13 PM »
Actually, the project Fenix starts by the creation of the Soyuz-5 vehicle, which should slash launch cost for Russia. Then, they have the option of developing a SHLV by using the Soyuz-5.3 boosters and developing a big core and upper stage.
More info here:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz5.html
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #7 on: 01/03/2016 04:00 PM »
Since there is no money, politicians can tell any stories they want. Usually such stories are reserved for April 12.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #8 on: 01/04/2016 10:11 PM »
IMHO Fenix aka Phoenix (please note spelling) is not a name of launch vehicle of super heavy class.
It was a R&D code name for a creation of medium-class LV with MethaLOX propulsion on both stages (it was a Samara Rocket Center Progress initiative to eventually replace Soyuz-2 branch of the Soyuz LV family by Souyz 5).
AFAIK after recent events Russia would also might decide to replace Ukrainian-built Zenit LV by 100% national version.
First stage of Zenit LV has common design with Energia SHLV boosters (Block A), it make sense to reuse first stage of MethaLOX LV as boosters for a brand new SHLV (it might happened after 2025).
Roskosmos state corporation would spend 2 years to determine requirements for Phoenix tender (expected in 2018).     


More details about Zenit first stage are here
« Last Edit: 01/04/2016 10:14 PM by fregate »
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Online notsorandom

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #9 on: 01/05/2016 03:58 PM »
The Zenit and Angara-3 have roughly the same payload capabilities. Considering that the Angara 1 and 5 versions have already flown wouldn't it be cheaper and quicker to field the Angara-3 than resurrect an all Russian Zenit or develop the Soyuz 5 if that payload class were needed?

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #10 on: 01/05/2016 04:08 PM »
I am curious about Soyuz-3 and Soyuz-4 if we are talking about Soyuz-5.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #11 on: 01/05/2016 09:30 PM »
Different internal Projects. Soyuz-3 was to have an hydrogen third stage, NK-33 second stage and RD-163 first stage, IIRC. Zak's site has the whole thing.
Regarding Soyuz-4, I don't really know the details.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #12 on: 01/05/2016 09:34 PM »
Important note is that Soyuz-5 is RSC Progress project to replace Soyuz. Angara is Khrunichev's project for consolidating all their LV under a single family.
I'm pretty sure that keeping two launch vehicle companies is one of the main concerns of the Russian government. Even if they are all owned by the government corporation in the end.
Please understand that somehow Progress has been able to launch 20 rockets per year and has some very interesting contracts with WebOne and Arianespace. So their internal funding capacity might be more significant the Khrunichev's.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #13 on: 01/05/2016 09:38 PM »
The other issue is that it should lower their cost. Soyuz-2 has five different diameters, three different engines, six stages three liquids (RG-1, LOX and H2O2), two gases (nitrogen and helium) and many other inefficiencies.
Soyuz-5 would use a single diameter, two liquids (LOX/LNG) and use autopressurization, two engines, optimized pad flow, etc.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #14 on: 01/06/2016 05:23 AM »
The other issue is that it should lower their cost. Soyuz-2 has five different diameters, three different engines, six stages three liquids (RG-1, LOX and H2O2), two gases (nitrogen and helium) and many other inefficiencies.
Soyuz-5 would use a single diameter, two liquids (LOX/LNG) and use autopressurization, two engines, optimized pad flow, etc.

My car uses five different liquids (petrol, oil, engine coolant, brake fluid and wiper water). Using lots of different liquids (or gases) does not greatly effect a vehicle's cost efficiency as their cost is relatively small over the cost of the vehicle. The question is if the combined cost of developing and producing Soyuz 5 will be cheaper than continuing to make Soyuz 2.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #15 on: 01/20/2016 08:54 PM »
http://tass.ru/en/science/850798

Quote
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/.
Russiaís space agency retains funds in new program for Phoenix rocket development

Expenditures on developing the Phoenix carrier rocket have been actually kept unchanged in Russiaís new federal space program for 2016-2025, according to the document released by the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) on Wednesday. Under the new document, the Phoenix projectís financing is expected at 29.3 billion rubles ($367 million) whereas the previous project stipulated the sum of over 30 billion rubles ($375 million). Under the new federal space program, the work to develop a medium-class new-generation space and rocket system (the Phoenix project) will begin from 2018. The Phoenix rocket is designed to deliver a payload of up to 17 tonnes to a low orbit (including as part of a manned flight program) and up to 2.5 tonnes to a geostationary orbit with the help of a booster.

The experimental tests of the rocketís key elements are expected to be completed on the ground in 2025. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in late December that Russia had started work to create a super-heavy rocket with Phoenix as its first stage. This rocket will have a lifting capacity of over 100 tonnes. A source in the rocket and space industry earlier told TASS that Phoenix was considered as scientific and technical groundwork for developing a new carrier rocket for a manned flight program with the dimensions of the Zenit rocket. In the future, the new rocket can become a modular vehicle to comprise several units and can even be converted into a heavy-class rocket. RD-171 engines produced by Energomash research and production association and mounted on the Zenit rocket are considered for use as first stage engines.

Interesting that Fenix is linked to the manned programme. Does this mean they are considering to launch the Earth orbit version of the new-generation manned vehicle ("Federation") on Fenix rather than Angara-5P?

In another TASS report today (only in Russian) Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov is quoted as saying that for the time being there are no plans to build a Fenix pad at Vostochnyy, adding that a decision to build a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Phoenix will be made in 2017 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

Yet another TASS report today (only in Russian) said a preliminary design for a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Fenix should be completed in 2018 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #16 on: 01/20/2016 10:39 PM »
http://tass.ru/en/science/850798

Quote
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/.
Russiaís space agency retains funds in new program for Phoenix rocket development

Expenditures on developing the Phoenix carrier rocket have been actually kept unchanged in Russiaís new federal space program for 2016-2025, according to the document released by the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) on Wednesday. Under the new document, the Phoenix projectís financing is expected at 29.3 billion rubles ($367 million) whereas the previous project stipulated the sum of over 30 billion rubles ($375 million). Under the new federal space program, the work to develop a medium-class new-generation space and rocket system (the Phoenix project) will begin from 2018. The Phoenix rocket is designed to deliver a payload of up to 17 tonnes to a low orbit (including as part of a manned flight program) and up to 2.5 tonnes to a geostationary orbit with the help of a booster.

The experimental tests of the rocketís key elements are expected to be completed on the ground in 2025. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in late December that Russia had started work to create a super-heavy rocket with Phoenix as its first stage. This rocket will have a lifting capacity of over 100 tonnes. A source in the rocket and space industry earlier told TASS that Phoenix was considered as scientific and technical groundwork for developing a new carrier rocket for a manned flight program with the dimensions of the Zenit rocket. In the future, the new rocket can become a modular vehicle to comprise several units and can even be converted into a heavy-class rocket. RD-171 engines produced by Energomash research and production association and mounted on the Zenit rocket are considered for use as first stage engines.

Interesting that Fenix is linked to the manned programme. Does this mean they are considering to launch the Earth orbit version of the new-generation manned vehicle ("Federation") on Fenix rather than Angara-5P?

In another TASS report today (only in Russian) Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov is quoted as saying that for the time being there are no plans to build a Fenix pad at Vostochnyy, adding that a decision to build a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Phoenix will be made in 2017 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

Yet another TASS report today (only in Russian) said a preliminary design for a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Fenix should be completed in 2018 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200

it allows for redundancy, but Space Forces doesntreally want man rated a man rated Angara

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #17 on: 01/20/2016 11:01 PM »
http://tass.ru/en/science/850798

Quote
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/.
Russiaís space agency retains funds in new program for Phoenix rocket development

Expenditures on developing the Phoenix carrier rocket have been actually kept unchanged in Russiaís new federal space program for 2016-2025, according to the document released by the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) on Wednesday. Under the new document, the Phoenix projectís financing is expected at 29.3 billion rubles ($367 million) whereas the previous project stipulated the sum of over 30 billion rubles ($375 million). Under the new federal space program, the work to develop a medium-class new-generation space and rocket system (the Phoenix project) will begin from 2018. The Phoenix rocket is designed to deliver a payload of up to 17 tonnes to a low orbit (including as part of a manned flight program) and up to 2.5 tonnes to a geostationary orbit with the help of a booster.

The experimental tests of the rocketís key elements are expected to be completed on the ground in 2025. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in late December that Russia had started work to create a super-heavy rocket with Phoenix as its first stage. This rocket will have a lifting capacity of over 100 tonnes. A source in the rocket and space industry earlier told TASS that Phoenix was considered as scientific and technical groundwork for developing a new carrier rocket for a manned flight program with the dimensions of the Zenit rocket. In the future, the new rocket can become a modular vehicle to comprise several units and can even be converted into a heavy-class rocket. RD-171 engines produced by Energomash research and production association and mounted on the Zenit rocket are considered for use as first stage engines.

Interesting that Fenix is linked to the manned programme. Does this mean they are considering to launch the Earth orbit version of the new-generation manned vehicle ("Federation") on Fenix rather than Angara-5P?

In another TASS report today (only in Russian) Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov is quoted as saying that for the time being there are no plans to build a Fenix pad at Vostochnyy, adding that a decision to build a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Phoenix will be made in 2017 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

Yet another TASS report today (only in Russian) said a preliminary design for a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Fenix should be completed in 2018 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200

it allows for redundancy, but Space Forces doesntreally want man rated a man rated Angara
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200
My understanding that in 2016-17 Roscosmos would prepare requirements for a medium class launcher tender (R&D Phoenix) and Preliminary Design of 17 tones LV would be completed at 2018.
Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion about Draft of FSP presented on Wed 20th of Jan.
R&D program Phoenix originally was lobbied by Samara Rocket center to get funding for MethaLOX propelled Soyuz V family, but FSP language had been changed since Dec 2015 - it seems to be that it would include development of Russian Zenit class launcher as well.   
Funding for SHLV components would be provided from 2017. Reslts of those  2 R&D programs would be used for SHLV development after 2025.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2016 10:42 PM by fregate »
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #18 on: 01/22/2016 05:23 AM »
The language "Lets study this a bit more." usually means an effort to cancel the program.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #19 on: 07/13/2016 02:40 AM »
The language "Lets study this a bit more." usually means an effort to cancel the program.
They have a BUDGET allocated by FSP 2016-2025 plus there is a political will - Putin would like to see a RUSSIAN SHLV, and R&D Phoenix (aka Feniks) should provide a boosters blocks for stage I.
« Last Edit: 07/15/2016 05:47 AM by fregate »
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #20 on: 07/13/2016 05:22 AM »
Putin would like to see a RUSSIAN SHLV

That's news to me. Is there a reference of Putin actually saying he would like Russia to have a SHLV?
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #21 on: 07/15/2016 05:43 AM »
Putin would like to see a RUSSIAN SHLV

That's news to me. Is there a reference of Putin actually saying he would like Russia to have a SHLV?
Yes, but they are in RUSSIAN :)
Alternatively some info here http://www.russianspaceweb.com/superheavy.html
« Last Edit: 07/15/2016 05:46 AM by fregate »
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Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #22 on: 07/22/2016 02:38 PM »
Stephen,
Russian budget for a next decade has a lot of "Easter eggs" hidden behind creatively named R&D projects.
For instance:
- an original R&D Phoenix project had been lobbied by Samara Rocket Space Center "Progress" to get funding for a new EELV Soyuz series with MethanLOX propulsion on all stages (known as Soyuz V);
- due to deterioration of Ukrainian-Russian relationships since 2014, Roscosmos cancelled Zenit LV orders and decided to ditch Sea Launch, so the same  R&D Phoenix project in Federal State Program now has an objective to design a 100% Russian replacement for Zenit (most likely with RD-171M on first stage with LV stages diamaeter 4.1 m);
- recently revived dormant (since 2004) joined Russian and Kazakh Baiterek project (transisioned from Anagara to Zenit to Proton Lite) assumed development of  new EELV with Kazakh name (wait for it) that translate as "FALCON";
- FSP also assumes that first stage of EELV  R&D Phoenix project would be used as a baseline for SHLV boosters (4,6 or even 8 depending on configuration). 

It's a black ops mentality - we wish one thing, but outcome might be rather different.

Stay tuned - I suspect that a temporary replacement of Zenit by Proton Light could have much longer shelf life than anticipated.   
I'll hopefully see you in Sep of the next year on IAC'17 Forum.   
« Last Edit: 07/22/2016 02:39 PM by fregate »
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Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #23 on: 08/07/2016 09:15 AM »

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #24 on: 08/07/2016 09:16 AM »

Offline asmi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #25 on: 08/07/2016 04:29 PM »
I wonder who do they plan to fit 2 RD-0124's under stage as each of them has 4 nozzles already. Wanna see that!

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #26 on: 08/07/2016 05:30 PM »
I wonder who do they plan to fit 2 RD-0124's under stage as each of them has 4 nozzles already. Wanna see that!
It looks approximately so:

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #27 on: 08/07/2016 05:39 PM »
So, it is a custom version with specially arranged nozzles?
What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #28 on: 08/07/2016 05:48 PM »
So, it is a custom version with specially arranged nozzles?

I think so

What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?

Most likely, these engines will be used with minimum alterations. There are hints on the fact that for a first stage RD-180 will be chosen.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #29 on: 08/08/2016 02:44 AM »
So, it is a custom version with specially arranged nozzles?

I think so

What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?

Most likely, these engines will be used with minimum alterations. There are hints on the fact that for a first stage RD-180 will be chosen.
So, basically, they are trading two RD-180 or 1 RD-171M, with two RD-180 looking more attractive? Wouldn't propulsion alone cost something like 30M? Can Voronezh drop the price enough to make it worth?

Offline asmi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #30 on: 08/08/2016 12:39 PM »
What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?
It says "it's possible to use two RD-180's instead of a single RD-171M".
« Last Edit: 08/08/2016 01:08 PM by asmi »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #31 on: 08/08/2016 05:39 PM »
What does it says about the RD-171M and the RD-180?
It says "it's possible to use two RD-180's instead of a single RD-171M".
also by making more RD-180s then price will drop some. Also the new manufacturing processes and updates for 3D printing of nozzles and parts will further reduce employee man-hours cost and manufacturing cost per engine produced.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2016 05:40 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #32 on: 08/22/2016 09:31 AM »
https://www.rt.com/news/356699-russia-heavy-rocket-moon/

So, now the new plan is to discard the 4 launch Angara-5v architecture for yet another HLV. I vaguely recall the HLV being the prime option some 10 years ago, being dropped when the design process required real money to be allocated.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #33 on: 08/22/2016 09:56 AM »
Article in Izvestia by Ivan Cheberko - Angara A5V is cancelled!
Long live the Super Heavy Launch Vehicle with Rd-171м engines
On first stage boosters.
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Online Kryten

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #34 on: 08/22/2016 02:23 PM »
Article in Izvestia by Ivan Cheberko - Angara A5V is cancelled!
Long live the Super Heavy Launch Vehicle with Rd-171м engines
On first stage boosters.
http://izvestia.ru/news/628028

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #35 on: 09/14/2016 08:23 AM »
http://izvestia.ru/news/628767

Izvestiya story (25 August) : Roskosmos proposing Kazakhstan to fly Feniks from Baikonur under the name Sunkar in the framework of the Baiterek programme. First test flight in 2024, start of commercial operations in 2025, marketing to be performed by ILS.  Vehicle to be built by Progress in Samara with support of Khrunichev and the Makeyev Centre, prime contractor to be RKK Energiya.

http://izvestia.ru/news/632286
Izvestiya story (14 September) : Start of Feniks commercial operations in 2025 should mark the end of Proton Lite/Medium flights under Baiterek in the period 2020-2025.

Offline Mike Jones

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #36 on: 08/11/2017 03:09 PM »
Energia has been officially confirmed by Roscosmos as Prime contractor for Soyuz 5 launch vehicle development. Maiden flight in 2022 from Baikonur.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/23906/

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #37 on: 08/14/2017 11:32 PM »
But this Soyuz-5 rocket is not Fenix - wasn't Fenix/Phoenix supposed to use Methane as fuel? It seems like a future MethaLox is now called Soyuz-7, unless Google Translate really messed up my translation.

This whole Fenix/Sunkar/Soyuz-5 business is so confusing...

Energia has been officially confirmed by Roscosmos as Prime contractor for Soyuz 5 launch vehicle development. Maiden flight in 2022 from Baikonur.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/23906/

I had assumed that TsSKB-Progress "owned" the Soyuz line name, and would therefore be the prime contractor on Soyuz-5, but this is apparently not the case.  ???
« Last Edit: 08/14/2017 11:35 PM by Lars-J »

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #38 on: 08/15/2017 12:07 AM »
But this Soyuz-5 rocket is not Fenix - wasn't Fenix/Phoenix supposed to use Methane as fuel? It seems like a future MethaLox is now called Soyuz-7, unless Google Translate really messed up my translation.

This whole Fenix/Sunkar/Soyuz-5 business is so confusing...

Energia has been officially confirmed by Roscosmos as Prime contractor for Soyuz 5 launch vehicle development. Maiden flight in 2022 from Baikonur.

https://www.roscosmos.ru/23906/

I had assumed that TsSKB-Progress "owned" the Soyuz line name, and would therefore be the prime contractor on Soyuz-5, but this is apparently not the case.  ???
it is Soyuz-5 by naming convention of Roscosmos. Fenix/Sunkar are R&D project/tender names, whereas Soyuz-5 is operational.official name. Soyuz-5 Methane is a separate project that was placed on the Backburner because Roscomos needed a man-rated Zenit-Soyuz-2 replacement ASAP as Angara-5P was officially cut as the launcher for the PTK launches due to Angara-A5's manufacturing and underperformance "teething" issues that have led to the need develop Angara-5M as a stepping stone to Angara-5V before any launches out of Vostochny.

Explanation can be found here: http://russianspaceweb.com/soyuz5-lv-ptk.html

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #39 on: 08/15/2017 09:05 PM »
Here's some more background.
Several years ago RKTs Progress in Samara proposed a new family of launch vehicles called Soyuz-5 that would burn LOX/methane : Soyuz-5.1 (9 tonnes to LEO), Soyuz-5.2. (16 tonnes to LEO) and Soyuz-5.3. (25/26 tonnes to LEO). The plans were first presented at the Paris air show in 2013 and were incorporated into a Roskosmos study known as "Magistral".

In the spring of 2015 Roskosmos announced that the development of a new medium-lift rocket would be included in the Federal Space Program for 2016-2015. The name of the R&D phase of this project (in Russian : OKR - opytno-konstruktorskiye raboty, something like "experimental design work") was Feniks (Russian for "Phoenix"). The focus was now on the development of a 17-tonne class booster, the first stage of which could later evolve into the strap-on boosters of a heavy-lift launch vehicle. After the announcement RKTs Progress initially seems to have continued work on a LOX/methane rocket, but eventually opted for an all LOX/kerosene rocket with the RD-171M engine on the first stage. In the absence of a name, many (including space officials themselves) began to refer to the rocket itself as Feniks, although that strictly speaking was the name of the OKR.

The name Sunkar (Kazakh for "Falcon") first surfaced in August 2016, when Roskosmos proposed Kazakhstan to fly the rocket from Baikonur under the joint Russian-Kazakh Baiterek venture. Finally, at a meeting in Sochi on May 22 this year Putin and space officials approved a proposal by RKTs Progress to name the rocket Soyuz-5, the same name originally used for the family of LOX/methane boosters.

Putting it all together :

- Feniks is the name of the OKR under Federal Space Program 2016-2025 to develop a new medium-lift launch vehicle
- Soyuz-5 is the general name for the rocket itself (for launches from Baikonur, Vostochnyy, Sea Launch)
- Sunkar is the Kazakh name to be used for the rockets flown from Baikonur

RKK Energia chief Vladimir Solntsev has said there will be no basic differences between the versions flown from the three launch sites.

By the way, while Solntsev as well as Roscosmos head Igor Komarov have stated on several occasions that Soyuz-5 will fly from the Sea Launch platform, the S7 Group that now owns Sea Launch has never confirmed this. S7 has been very secretive about its intentions, but the Ukrainian Yuzhmash company announced in June that it had signed a deal with S7 to build 12 Zenit rockets for S7. Several days ago it was reported that Zenit will be flying from the Sea Launch platform until 2023. Any hopes that Roskosmos may have had about S7 investing in the development of Soyuz-5 have probably evaporated by now.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #40 on: 09/07/2017 09:25 AM »
Here's my attempt to summarize and analyze recent developments in Russia's rocket program : the decision to launch Federatsia on Soyuz-5 rather than Angara-5P, a brief history of Soyuz-5/Sunkar/Feniks, the decision to speed up development of a heavy-lift launch vehicle.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/3321/1


Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #41 on: 09/26/2017 07:09 AM »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #42 on: 10/01/2017 06:29 AM »
Six cores would mean a thrust of 43.5 MN. Saturn V was 33.85 MN.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2017 06:30 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #43 on: 10/01/2017 08:38 AM »
5 boosters is an odd choice... 4 allows you more flexibility (4 or 2), But with 5... its 5 or nothing.

But perhaps they are learning from Angara, too many configurations can hurt the design.

Offline Welsh Dragon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #44 on: 10/01/2017 09:50 AM »
Surely you can have non-symmetrical booster setups? That's what Atlas V does every time it flies with boosters. Yes, I know these boosters are a lot bigger than those on Atlas, but given that people have proposed two core setups in the past, I would suspect it would be possible?

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #45 on: 10/01/2017 01:18 PM »
5 boosters is an odd choice... 4 allows you more flexibility (4 or 2), But with 5... its 5 or nothing.

Atlas V proves this statement is wrong. It can use 0; 1; 2; 3; 4 or 5 boosters. Opposed to Angara where 0; 2; (3;) 4 or 6 boosters are proposed. I expect 3 boosters to also be possible on Angara.
(Angara 1.2 = 0; Angara 5 = 4 boosters)
The problem is, that all the configurations need to be accounted for. And with throttling or engine gimbaling the thrust vector needs to be corrected.
This five cores around the sixth center core looks to be the most dense core arangement. There is hardly any space around the center core where there isn't a booster. 4 boosters would create unoccupied spaces.
This is with the cores directly in contact at one point. With six boosters, direct contact isn't possible anymore.
Didn't the Energia/ Buran also have a non symmetric booster configuration?
« Last Edit: 10/01/2017 01:31 PM by Rik ISS-fan »

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #46 on: 10/02/2017 06:08 PM »
Zenit was also proposed to have a single-strapon configuration. Which seems pretty relevant given the similar engines on this concept (RD-170 family apparently already having the control authority to maintain attitude control even with a single same-sized booster)

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #47 on: 10/02/2017 09:30 PM »
On Energia the Zenit Boosters were symmetric on on only one axis (x/y) but not the other to accommodate the Buran and Polyus. Energia in its original design, before side mounting the payload became the thing, it would have allowed 8 boosters with payload on top. When Buran came along they designed a modified core stage to mount the Buran and took off 4 boosters. The 8 booster design was shelved in favour of fly payloads with Buran.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #48 on: 10/03/2017 12:51 AM »
5 boosters is an odd choice... 4 allows you more flexibility (4 or 2), But with 5... its 5 or nothing.

Atlas V proves this statement is wrong. It can use 0; 1; 2; 3; 4 or 5 boosters. Opposed to Angara where 0; 2; (3;) 4 or 6 boosters are proposed. I expect 3 boosters to also be possible on Angara.
(Angara 1.2 = 0; Angara 5 = 4 boosters)
The problem is, that all the configurations need to be accounted for. And with throttling or engine gimbaling the thrust vector needs to be corrected.

Yes clearly can be done in theory - and the Atlas V SRBs are not as powerful as the central core itself. (Same with Energia) Doing it with equal strength cores present more of a gimbal challenge.

My other concern with 5 boosters is that requires massive changes to the central core to handle 6 times the load. FH is giving SpaceX a lot of problems, but that is far easier than FIVE(!!!) cores attached. This makes Angara A5 look easy.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #49 on: 10/12/2017 04:30 PM »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #50 on: 10/13/2017 06:58 AM »
So if I'm reading this correctly. Presumably RB is an optional third stage. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!

Liftoff mass: 534 t
Stages: 2+RB
Length: 61.8 m
Diameter: 4.1 m
First Stage Engine: RD171MV
Second Stage Engine: RD0124MS
LEO Payload: 18.0 t
GSO Payload: 2.5 t
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #51 on: 10/13/2017 09:26 AM »
The Russians are spoilt for choice with great engines yet they struggle to put new LV together. Most other countries  or companies, it is engine development that holds them back when developing a new LV.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #52 on: 10/13/2017 11:45 AM »
Presumably RB is an optional third stage.

It is Russian generic designation for Razgonnyi Blok, which means "upper stage". I guess Blok D and Fregat-SB can be used on Soyuz-5, since they were used on Zenit-2.
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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #53 on: 10/13/2017 02:58 PM »
I think that one of the big brain breakers for Fenix / Soyuz 5 will be the launch site.
Only at the Baikonur Cosmodrome there is a launch site for Zenit (LandLaunch). And there is the Odyssey Semi-submersible platform for former (SeaLaunch). Now owned by S7 Group.
How to launch Soyuz 5 from a Cosmodrome in Russian territory (Plesetsk or Vostochny)?
Possibly they could convert Plesetsk LC-41 (former Soyuz/R-7 site).

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #54 on: 10/13/2017 05:06 PM »
I think that one of the big brain breakers for Fenix / Soyuz 5 will be the launch site.
Only at the Baikonur Cosmodrome there is a launch site for Zenit (LandLaunch). And there is the Odyssey Semi-submersible platform for former (SeaLaunch). Now owned by S7 Group.
How to launch Soyuz 5 from a Cosmodrome in Russian territory (Plesetsk or Vostochny)?
Possibly they could convert Plesetsk LC-41 (former Soyuz/R-7 site).
You will see it from Baikonur first followed by Vostochny. That is the approved development order for now. You will not see it at Plesetsk until present Soyuz-2 fleet is phased out at which time MoD will be flying its payloads on Angara family.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #55 on: 10/13/2017 07:08 PM »
So the Vostochny extremely heavy pad is in development for Fenix / Soyuz 5.
Aren't Soyuz 2.1v; 2.1A and 2.B and Angara 1.2 and 5 complementary to each other. All serve a different market.
Soyuz 5 could replace Soyuz 2.1A and -B, going to an all RD-17x/19x launcher family.
Angara 3 could also replace Soyuz 2.1A & -B but that isn't planned right?

Is the phaseout of the Soyuz 2 even thought about?


Online Galactic Penguin SST

Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #56 on: 10/14/2017 02:10 AM »
Dmitry, does the current Soyuz-5 design have theoretical capability (or enough performance/physical space) to install equipment for down range recovery of the first stage? For example they can use a dedicated vernier engine around the RD-171 for the entry/landing burns and land (vertically) on the down range grasslands. If that doesn't work they can even re-use the Energia concept of simply using parachutes (doesn't really need pinpoint landing accuracy if they have all terrain vehicles for stage recovery on the steppes).

If so, what penalty would there be in terms of launcher performance?
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #57 on: 10/15/2017 12:10 PM »
Dmitry, does the current Soyuz-5 design have theoretical capability (or enough performance/physical space) to install equipment for down range recovery of the first stage? For example they can use a dedicated vernier engine around the RD-171 for the entry/landing burns and land (vertically) on the down range grasslands. If that doesn't work they can even re-use the Energia concept of simply using parachutes (doesn't really need pinpoint landing accuracy if they have all terrain vehicles for stage recovery on the steppes).

If so, what penalty would there be in terms of launcher performance?

Theoretically it is possible. But the management of "Energy" has told that "Soyuz-5" will be a disposable rocket. Technologies of reuse are planned to be fulfilled on rockets of an light class approximately in 2030.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #58 on: 10/25/2017 04:54 PM »
One of variants of a rocket "Soyuz-5". He was developed in 'Energia' about three years ago. Thanks to Pavel Pushkin (FB).
« Last Edit: 10/25/2017 04:55 PM by Dmitry_V_home »

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