Author Topic: Horizon Black Arrow 2  (Read 13937 times)

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Horizon Black Arrow 2
« on: 12/10/2015 06:24 AM »
Might as well start a thread on this new launch vehicle, the Horizon Black Arrow 2 which involves Ross Tierney (Kraisee) famous for his involvement in the Direct heavy launch vehicle work. Their web site is at

http://horizonsas.com/

This is another small launch vehicle project, this time from the UK. They are using a two stage methalox vehicle with a 360 kN first stage and 45 kN second stage. Initial launches will be from Northern Scotland. Vehicle diameter is 1.8 m, with a 2.4 m diameter fairing. Performance is 200 kg into a Sun Synchronous orbit. Price is £5M or $7.6M for a cost of $38K/kg.

The first suborbital test launches are planned for 2017, with orbital flights from 2018.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2015 06:32 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #1 on: 12/10/2015 07:26 AM »
Maybe we need a small launch vehicle section there are enough small LV threads to justify.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2015 07:35 AM by TrevorMonty »

Offline NovaSilisko

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #2 on: 12/10/2015 07:30 AM »
Hm. The idea of the IKEA-style launch facility is an interesting one.

Quote
The entire launch facility, including an ISO-7 Class 10,000 cleanroom payload facility, packs away inside 26 standard ISO cargo-containers.
The complete facility can relocate to a new launch site in less than 30 days.

Still though, ohgodanothersmallsatlauncher

All the power to them anyway.
« Last Edit: 12/10/2015 07:31 AM by NovaSilisko »

Offline savuporo

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #3 on: 12/10/2015 07:55 AM »
Still though, ohgodanothersmallsatlauncher

All the power to them anyway.

The more the merrier. Original X-Prize had about 30 entrants. Only one got to space, barely - and orbital rockets are plenty harder.
Best of luck with the venture, this looks like a very reasonable approach.

Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline NovaSilisko

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #4 on: 12/10/2015 08:08 AM »
A few other interesting points from their website:

*They plan on an ocean platform for equatorial launches

*They're going to attempt to recover stages eventually ("mainly to examine" them)

*3d printed components

*They're trying to optimize for cost, not performance, which is why the vehicle looks a bit oversized for its payload capacity (to me at least)


I wonder if any of the spent first stages would get far enough to impact arctic sea ice. That could be an environmental concern.


« Last Edit: 12/10/2015 08:18 AM by NovaSilisko »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #5 on: 12/10/2015 08:16 AM »
Still though, ohgodanothersmallsatlauncher

All the power to them anyway.

The more the merrier. Original X-Prize had about 30 entrants. Only one got to space, barely - and orbital rockets are plenty harder.
Best of luck with the venture, this looks like a very reasonable approach.
It all comes down to how well they are financed.

Offline douglas100

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #6 on: 12/10/2015 04:15 PM »

...I wonder if any of the spent first stages would get far enough to impact arctic sea ice. That could be an environmental concern.

I think that concern could be much more applied to launches out of Plesetsk, especially LV's using toxic propellants like Rokot. For this proposed vehicle with LOX and LNG propellants I don't think pollution will be a problem. And there's hundreds of miles of open water to the north of Scotland before you encounter any polar ice.
Douglas Clark

Offline savuporo

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #7 on: 12/10/2015 05:46 PM »
Still though, ohgodanothersmallsatlauncher

All the power to them anyway.

The more the merrier. Original X-Prize had about 30 entrants. Only one got to space, barely - and orbital rockets are plenty harder.
Best of luck with the venture, this looks like a very reasonable approach.
It all comes down to how well they are financed.
Financing is only one part of building a product, you actually need a product/service that is workable and a team with the right combination of talent that is able to execute as well.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #8 on: 12/10/2015 06:35 PM »
Still though, ohgodanothersmallsatlauncher

All the power to them anyway.

The more the merrier. Original X-Prize had about 30 entrants. Only one got to space, barely - and orbital rockets are plenty harder.
Best of luck with the venture, this looks like a very reasonable approach.
It all comes down to how well they are financed.
Financing is only one part of building a product, you actually need a product/service that is workable and a team with the right combination of talent that is able to execute as well.
And the money to pay their wages.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #9 on: 12/11/2015 12:21 AM »
Financing is only one part of building a product, you actually need a product/service that is workable and a team with the right combination of talent that is able to execute as well.
And the money to pay their wages.
Again - money is just one of the key ingredients of launching a new venture successfully, and securing money does not magically grant you the others. Plus, this is off topic here.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #10 on: 02/21/2016 02:34 PM »
@Kraisee: How much longer do we have to wait until the announcement of the Black Arrow 2? Until Farnborough Airshow?
I won't post again until the announcement.  ;)

I think it's appropriate to also post the link to the Seradata article here.
« Last Edit: 02/21/2016 02:35 PM by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline kraisee

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #11 on: 02/21/2016 03:30 PM »
Patience young padawan.   When everything is in place and we are ready to announce, trust me that NSF will be one of the first places to find out.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline Marble

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #12 on: 03/21/2017 04:31 PM »
@Kraisee: Any update on how the Black Arrow 2 is progressing? Is any funding been found or real design activity started?

Offline kraisee

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #13 on: 03/21/2017 06:13 PM »
Getting the first round of investment is always the most difficult.

The timing made it particularly hard getting our first investment round (interesting, because we have had a lot of interest for all 6 of our later rounds) because of Brexit. That caused a lot of general uncertainty across the entire investor community, and this meant that every investor in the UK tightened their belts and has been sitting on their money until such time are they felt more comfortable and confident again. Thankfully things seem to be really changing on that front this year.

We also changed fundraising partners at the end of last summer, and so we regrouped and bid-for, and won, a small UK Space Agency grant. We are now using this to leverage a small initial seed round to get this operation moving in April. We have multiple investors lined up to follow this, ready to pay for the entire development.

And we do intend to bid for the recently announced £10m from the UK Space Agency, and Horizon will be one of the only completely British solutions for both launcher and spaceport, so we think we have a good chance there.

We've just got to tip the first of these domino's.

On the technical front, initial designs for the rockets, engines and most of the ground infrastructure are complete. Work is ongoing to develop four new rocket engine test stands at two different UK sites. We are working with two Scottish areas who both want us to setup a launch site. Our team now numbers over 30 truly amazing people from the UK and Europe and there is a real buzz to get moving.

This is the reason why the website currently remains aimed at investors, not the public. As I said previously, when we are in a position to go ahead and announce this programme officially, NSF will get the news first.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline Marble

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #14 on: 03/21/2017 09:52 PM »
Ross,

Thanks for the update. I look forward to seeing some activity at Westcott.

Best of luck closing the funding.

Offline Ithirahad

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #15 on: 05/09/2017 03:08 PM »
Am I the only one here who feels that this shouldn't be called Black Arrow 2? Seems to have very little to do with the original Black Arrow, except that it's a rocket, it goes to space, and it's designed to launch satellites.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #16 on: 05/10/2017 10:59 AM »
Yes, about the only thing in common with the two vehicles is that they are British and have a similar paint job! Perhaps they could have called it the Black Clipper, Black Sun, Black Sky, Black Star, or something else beginning with Black (as the previous British Black Knight and Black Arrow rockets were called).
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline kraisee

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #17 on: 06/10/2017 04:23 AM »
Ithirahad & Steven,
You're not wrong!   The configuration is indeed totally different; 2 stage, not 3, and LNG/LOX not Kero/HTP+Solid.

But it's the underlying principal of the thing that is guiding us:   The original vehicle was being developed as a new satellite launch capability best suited for British (and international) customers of that age.   At its heart they were also trying to deliver launches for the most reasonable price possible.   Although it was roughly 50 years ago, that philosophy seems timelessly appropriate, especially within the current renaissance that the global space industry is experiencing at present.

The biggest difference between this and our namesake isn't technical, its econo-political.   Horizon is a purely commercial venture, so our success will be dependent on developing an economically desirable product that works well.   As such we'll be largely insulated from the sort of policy changes that shuttered the original BLACK ARROW (always full capitals) programme, though we will have a variety of interesting global market forces providing a different set of challenges.

Interestingly, we do have some original BLACK ARROW grey beards on the Horizon team, so there is a genuine thread of heritage here.

We considered a range of alternate names, including Alpha, but then Firefly took that before we could announce.   Some names fitted the general 'colour' code name pattern of that era, with BLUE ARROW and WHITE KNIGHT scoring fairly well.   But to be authentic it really needs to be BLACK Something, as that was used as a specific designation for 'non-weapons system' such as BLACK KNIGHT and BLACK ARROW.   In the end we just preferred to have the direct (no pun intended) connection to the original vehicle that made Britain a launching country, so BLACK ARROW 2 it is.   And other series have changed configuration and propellants drastically too, Delta IV for instance, so we don't see that as a limiting factor.

I would consider opening the name up to the public, but Boaty McBoatface suggests that may not be such a good idea ::)

Maybe people on NSF would like to try come up with a better name?   I won't promise we'll change, but if there's a really excellent suggestion out there that captures our team's interest, it would certainly be a shame to miss it!

Ross.

P.S. Horizon news coming next week!
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline Quintus

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #18 on: 06/10/2017 05:00 PM »
BLACK ADDER? BLACK PRINCE? I guess both of those will have been considered already though.  😊

Online William Graham

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #19 on: 06/11/2017 11:31 AM »
BLACK ADDER? BLACK PRINCE? I guess both of those will have been considered already though.  😊

Black Prince was a proposed design in the 1960s, with a Blue Streak first stage and a Black Knight second stage. I don't think a Black Adder has ever been proposed but that name should probably be saved until they have a crew capsule and they can send Rowan Atkinson up on the first flight.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the name Black Arrow II. There are plenty of examples of rockets that have kept the same name as their predecessors, despite having little or nothing in common: Delta IV, Ariane 5, GSLV Mk.III. Granted these were made by the same organisations, but I don't think it's a huge leap.

Offline Jimmy Murdok

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #20 on: 06/11/2017 12:09 PM »
Name loks good...and comes with a big responsibility  ;)

A couple that came into my mind and keep the heritage
Black Lance
Black Javelin

Wish you good luck! Keep us posted

Online Welsh Dragon

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #21 on: 06/11/2017 01:02 PM »
Both Lance and Javelin have already been used for military missiles. Might want to avoid those associations.

Offline Jimmy Murdok

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #22 on: 06/11/2017 06:23 PM »
Both Lance and Javelin have already been used for military missiles. Might want to avoid those associations.

And Arrow too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_(Israeli_missile), all the names are based on weapons and have been used by other weapons  ::). You can find negative connotation of almost everything.

Lance reminds to Sir Lancelot, has the shape of a rocket and is symilar to an arrow. Brings originality as it's a new name, but keeps the dinasty of the original rocket "starting a dinasty". All of it very British  ;D

Online Welsh Dragon

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #23 on: 06/11/2017 07:05 PM »
True, although in that case the non-military use pre-dates the military one.

Offline ChamberPressure

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #24 on: 06/12/2017 11:38 AM »
P.S. Horizon news coming next week!

Oooooh, my interest is piqued.

Maybe people on NSF would like to try come up with a better name?   I won't promise we'll change, but if there's a really excellent suggestion out there that captures our team's interest, it would certainly be a shame to miss it!

I quite like BLACK ARROW 2. Have you considered a name for the engine powering it as of yet? Perhaps continuing with the heritage theme by going with some variation of "Gamma", like the original Bristol Siddeley Gamma engine?

Or how about "Olympus", as a kind of shoutout to the Rolls-Royce Olympus engines that powered the Avro Vulcan and Concorde.

Offline kraisee

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #25 on: 06/13/2017 04:24 AM »
The news is coming soon, but in the meantime, don't limit yourselves to the 'colour' code style, you are allowed to be more adventurous :D

Might I also suggest trying a few names with a possible nautical flavour?

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline gin455res

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #26 on: 06/19/2017 03:37 PM »
The news is coming soon, but in the meantime, don't limit yourselves to the 'colour' code style, you are allowed to be more adventurous :D

Might I also suggest trying a few names with a possible nautical flavour?

Ross.

SS Great Britain / with Brunel Engines?

What engine cycle is Horizon going with?

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #27 on: 06/20/2017 06:54 AM »
What engine cycle is Horizon going with?

As this is their first rocket, I would expect it to be gas generator.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline wilbobaggins

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #28 on: 06/21/2017 12:04 PM »
Personally, I am really excited about having UK launch capability (saves me moving to the US to get a job at SpaceX  :P)

I always liked the name HMS Pickle from Trafalgar so just pickle I guess. Maybe a name for a spacecraft rather than a rocket factory though.

As for Investment hopefully, the government might lead the way
The Queen's speech today was very promising:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-40354695
While Brexit may have dissuaded some investors, hopefully, the government feeling guilty (/political motivations) may provide the needed investment and perhaps more than they would have any.

Horizon has a great team and I am sure they will do great things

Offline kraisee

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #29 on: 06/23/2017 06:14 AM »
News is on hold for a bit, sorry.   We want to get a few more things shipshape and Bristol fashion first!   Good things happening though.   You'll still hear it here first!

gin455res; currently planning GG for the first stage.   Simple pressure fed for the upper.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #30 on: 06/23/2017 10:51 AM »
Noooo, not again a delay in news coming out.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2017 04:58 PM by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline kraisee

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #31 on: 07/19/2017 12:14 AM »
Horizon Space Technologies Ltd is officially announcing our British launch system has secured funding.

The press release has begun to go out to news agencies, and I've already sent a copy to Chris Bergin.

Watch this space for more info!

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline ringsider

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #32 on: 07/19/2017 05:44 AM »
Horizon Space Technologies Ltd is officially announcing our British launch system has secured funding.

The press release has begun to go out to news agencies, and I've already sent a copy to Chris Bergin.

Watch this space for more info!

Ross.

How much money did you raise?  Is it seed money or something more substantial?
« Last Edit: 07/19/2017 07:14 AM by ringsider »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #33 on: 07/19/2017 06:32 AM »
That's great news Ross! Looking forward to reading all the details.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Star One

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #34 on: 07/19/2017 07:26 AM »
Good news indeed. Just waiting to hear the details.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #35 on: 07/19/2017 09:17 AM »
Here is performance goals from website. More twice Electron payload, about same as  LauncherOne. Ideal for smallsats and Moon Express MX2 lander, maybe bit to big for cubesats.

The first version of Black Arrow 2 is being designed to lift at least 500 kg to 200×200 km 0° equatorial orbit, or 350 kg to 600×600 km 98° sun-synchronous.

A logical upgrade path exists to increase performance above 1,000 kg to LEO at some point in the future.
« Last Edit: 07/19/2017 09:19 AM by TrevorMonty »

Offline ChamberPressure

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #36 on: 07/19/2017 11:05 AM »
Horizon Space Technologies Ltd is officially announcing our British launch system has secured funding.

The press release has begun to go out to news agencies, and I've already sent a copy to Chris Bergin.

Watch this space for more info!

Ross.

That's fantastic news! ;D

gin455res; currently planning GG for the first stage.   Simple pressure fed for the upper.

Ross.

How about for engine cooling? Are you going with ablative materials to start and shifting to regenerative cooling later on, or jumping into regenerative cooling from the get go? 

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #37 on: 07/19/2017 02:36 PM »
Here's a press release dated beginning of last week. Is there a follow-up release due today about further (non-seed) funding?

Quote
The UK’s Space Launch Company - Launching Rockets from the UK Within 3 Years

Press Release From: Horizon Space Technologies
Posted: Monday, July 10, 2017

Many of us who have dreamed of travelling into space will have been thrilled by the announcement of the new Space Industry Bill which was included in the recent Queen’s Speech to Parliament.  The bill’s stated purpose is to make the UK the most attractive place in Europe for commercial space and will give companies the ability to launch rockets from the UK.  The UK’s space industry is worth an estimated £13.7billion and the government hopes to significantly increase the UK’s share of global space turnover from 6.5% to 10% by 2030.

Taking advantage of these regulatory changes is UK start-up company Horizon Space Technologies Limited, formed by Ross Tierney.  Tierney, a British born rocket designer, led the NASA team to replace the aging space shuttle programme in the wake of the Columbia shuttle disaster in 2003.  Horizon’s growing team of talented British engineers began 12 months ago to develop a range of space launchers in the UK.

“This is a very exciting time for Horizon and for British space” says Tierney “Our mission is to make space affordable by drastically reducing the inherent costs and the time taken to develop our launchers.  Starting without the legacy issues of other space companies, we are developing our rockets using the best talent that the UK has to offer.  In particular, we are using a rapid development process that originates from the UK’s world-leading Formula 1 industry; this will allow Horizon to drive costs significantly lower”.

Horizon has won a technology development grant from the UK Space Agency which has helped to kick off its initial development work.  The company plans an initial space port within the UK but also plans to launch its rockets off specialist ships which can be positioned around the world “The ability to launch from almost anywhere gives us advantages in terms of performance and flexibility to place our rockets into the required orbit” says Tierney “it also gives us the unique ability to launch our clients’ satellites from their own region”.

The UK is one of the world’s most important satellite manufacturers and initially the company has its eye on the small satellite launch market which is estimated to grow significantly over the next few years as the world’s hunger for mobile data increases and older satellites become redundant.  However the company’s ambitions go far beyond satellites “We will use our initial launches to test our systems – but our ultimate goal is manned space flight” says Tierney “We intend to open up space in much the same way as the first railways opened up the western United States to growth and commercial activity”.

The company has received seed capital from private investors and is well along the way to securing the funds it needs to fulfil its long-term ambitions. “Space travel is a complex business to develop” says Tierney “but our goal is to reduce costs and be able to compete favourably in the new commercial space environment that has been evolving over the last decade.  This will result in a profitable business going forward, bringing increased export services and huge rewards to the UK.  The investors coming on board at this early stage see this potential and want a piece of what will be a very lucrative industry”.

The company will soon be creating many100’s of high quality, science, engineering and manufacturing jobs on a number of sites within the UK.  Advice has also been found from the Welsh Government, with Wales being one of the areas where the company is planning to locate its rocket engine testing facilities, docks and manufacturing.  “With Brexit around the corner, the UK needs to develop its own technologies and independent capabilities more than ever.  We see Horizon as fulfilling an important part of that need and we believe that a home grown space flight capability will encourage pride in our nation and will bring many benefits - economic, geo-political and educational, to name a few” says Tierney “The future is just over the Horizon”.

About Horizon Space Technologies Limited

Horizon is a British based and British owned company embarking on a development program to build and launch a series of rocket powered space launchers manufactured in the UK.  It is headed by some of the world’s leading experts in the field of rocket, aerospace and motor racing engineering.  Their mission is to make space affordable and accessible.

Press Contact

Name: Paul Painter, Chief Commercial Officer
Mobile: +44 (0) 790 8850163
Email: paul.painter@horizonsas.com
Web: www.horizonsas.com

http://spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=51215
« Last Edit: 07/19/2017 02:37 PM by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline ringsider

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #38 on: 07/19/2017 05:59 PM »
"Horizon has won a technology development grant from the UK Space Agency which has helped to kick off its initial development work."

This was in 2016 I think, mentioned further up in this thread?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38987.msg1656997#msg1656997

Or is it something new? If new it is good news.

"Tierney, a British born rocket designer, led the NASA team to replace the aging space shuttle programme in the wake of the Columbia shuttle disaster in 2003"

Is this accurate? My understanding was DIRECT was an ad hoc group working voluntarily outside NASA? Or have I got that wrong? It's what was mentioned here:-

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2009/05/direct-rebuttal-nasa-analysis-jupiter-launch-vehicle/

"The team claims to be comprised of eight public representatives and 62 NASA and contractor engineers – who work on the project on their own time."
« Last Edit: 07/19/2017 09:12 PM by ringsider »

Offline gin455res

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #39 on: 07/23/2017 07:32 PM »
Thanks for the information on the engine cycle (gas generator).


The bulk density of methane lox is quite low compared to other hydrocarbons/lox combinations. This means that more energy is required for pumping.


I'm curious how


methane with a C:H ratio of 1:4,

   ethane with a C:H ratio of 1:3, and

propane with a C:H ratio of  1:2.667


compare in terms of the propellant-mass-fraction lost to pumping.


How does the variation in average molecular weight of the gas-generator products from different fuels effect turbine inlet temperatures and masses lost to pumping?


Are methane/lox gas-generators more fuel efficient than ethane/lox gas-generators?


And if so, enough to make up for the poorer density of methane lox?   

« Last Edit: 07/23/2017 07:32 PM by gin455res »

Offline clongton

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #40 on: 07/23/2017 07:46 PM »
"Horizon has won a technology development grant from the UK Space Agency which has helped to kick off its initial development work."

This was in 2016 I think, mentioned further up in this thread?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38987.msg1656997#msg1656997

Or is it something new? If new it is good news.

"Tierney, a British born rocket designer, led the NASA team to replace the aging space shuttle programme in the wake of the Columbia shuttle disaster in 2003"

Is this accurate? My understanding was DIRECT was an ad hoc group working voluntarily outside NASA? Or have I got that wrong? It's what was mentioned here:-

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2009/05/direct-rebuttal-nasa-analysis-jupiter-launch-vehicle/

"The team claims to be comprised of eight public representatives and 62 NASA and contractor engineers – who work on the project on their own time."

Ringsider, your understanding is correct.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #41 on: 08/18/2017 07:16 PM »
Nice website update Ross.
What is the reason for the move to a 500kN engine on the first stage?
Did the intended payload capability increase?
With 360kN I thought there were two options: a single engine [for example ACE-36] or 9x 40kN the same engine as the upperstage 45kN engine. (A sea level and vacuum variant).
Now it is comfirmed that Black Arrow 2 will have two: single engine, common bulkhead LOX LNG stages.
Good luck with the upcoming upper-stage engine tests at westcott.

Offline ringsider

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #42 on: 09/16/2017 07:20 AM »
Looks like this is dead now. From what I can see on UK Companies House they have effectively closed down Horizon Space Technologies Limited as of a few days ago, Ross and most of the directors have resigned it seems:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09331949/filing-history

I am guessing that means they did not get any funding from the UK space launch initiative.
« Last Edit: 09/16/2017 07:22 AM by ringsider »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #43 on: 09/17/2017 05:37 AM »
That does not sound like very good news.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #44 on: 09/17/2017 05:44 AM »
Looks like this is dead now. From what I can see on UK Companies House they have effectively closed down Horizon Space Technologies Limited as of a few days ago, Ross and most of the directors have resigned it seems:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09331949/filing-history

I am guessing that means they did not get any funding from the UK space launch initiative.
:'(
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #45 on: 09/17/2017 05:57 AM »
I am guessing that means they did not get any funding from the UK space launch initiative.

The UK Space Agency says "Final announcements about any awards of grant funding are expected later in this financial year." which ends on 5 April 2018. That was on 18 August, only one month ago. It seems unlikely that the awards have been made. The article also says "We will be holding a second LaunchUK event later this year to bring together this community, and discuss our plans going forward in more detail." which I don't think has occurred yet.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bids-for-government-funding-prove-strong-interest-in-launchuk
« Last Edit: 09/17/2017 06:00 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline ringsider

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #46 on: 09/18/2017 07:00 AM »
I am guessing that means they did not get any funding from the UK space launch initiative.

The UK Space Agency says "Final announcements about any awards of grant funding are expected later in this financial year." which ends on 5 April 2018. That was on 18 August, only one month ago. It seems unlikely that the awards have been made. The article also says "We will be holding a second LaunchUK event later this year to bring together this community, and discuss our plans going forward in more detail." which I don't think has occurred yet.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bids-for-government-funding-prove-strong-interest-in-launchuk

- 26 proposals were submitted in response to the call
- Multiple proposals have been recommended for further consideration


Why would they close the company down like that if they had made it through to the final list?

Makes me wonder who did make it through.
« Last Edit: 09/18/2017 07:12 AM by ringsider »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Horizon Black Arrow 2
« Reply #47 on: 09/29/2017 06:22 PM »
This is me speculating:
I don't think HorizonSAS went bankrupt or stoped operating.
I think a takeover has taken place. Possibly the Black Arrow 2 will be proposed by another company.

Hopefully Ross is able and willing to clarify the situation about HorizonSAS.
Thanks in advance Ross.

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