Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Spaceflight SSO-A (Sun Synch Express) : Q2 2018  (Read 45699 times)

Offline nadreck

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #20 on: 10/02/2015 08:19 PM »


"Space is big.  Really big.  You won't believe how mind boggling big it is.  I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the Chemist, but....."

You may think the two dimensional surface of the Earth is big but increase that from two to six dimensions and it gets really big.

While I like the source of your quote, one of my favourite SF philosophers and one of my favourite humanists, it is non sequitor to this discussion. Where satellites go after they disperse is irrelevant if you prevent them from dispersing.


There is no such thing as a "corral" for satellites and no practice al way to do" trash collection".  Even if dispensed together they will disperse in all those dimensions. 

I am afraid I may not have been succinct, the use of the word corral was not suggesting a paddock like arrangement, but simply of establishing a parametric boundary beyond which a satellite within the virtual 'corral' would not be permitted to stray. Of course those with no control will disperse, however since the sheep dog satellite does have control, it simply snags each one as it drifts out of control, and, once it has snagged all of them then they are all considered retired and then re-entered.  People who make nano and micro sats that don't want them to have positive control, probably did not intend them to last very long.

There are NSF threads and conferences discussing that. It is not clear that this is on-topic for this thread about this particular launch.
Well the person I was responding to who thought that this sort of dedicated launch of potentially 100's of nano sats obviously thought that the threat was real.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Online douglas100

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #21 on: 10/02/2015 08:52 PM »

I am afraid I may not have been succinct, the use of the word corral was not suggesting a paddock like arrangement, but simply of establishing a parametric boundary beyond which a satellite within the virtual 'corral' would not be permitted to stray. Of course those with no control will disperse, however since the sheep dog satellite does have control, it simply snags each one as it drifts out of control, and, once it has snagged all of them then they are all considered retired and then re-entered.  People who make nano and micro sats that don't want them to have positive control, probably did not intend them to last very long.

You could avoid the complexity of the sheepdog by having a maneuverable dispenser for the satellites, a kind of super Sherpa. Uncontrolled short lifetime satellites would be deployed in low orbits (say ISS height or lower) and would de-orbit naturally. They could be left to get on with their missions. Larger more sophisticated controlled vehicles would be deployed in higher orbits to allow them to complete their missions, provided they had onboard means to de-orbit. This would also give the customers some choice of orbit, something they don't get with current ride share launches.

I'm one of those who doesn't think overcrowding in LEO will be affected too much by Sun Synch Express-type missions for a while yet.
Douglas Clark

Offline guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #22 on: 10/02/2015 08:52 PM »
Well the person I was responding to who thought that this sort of dedicated launch of potentially 100's of nano sats obviously thought that the threat was real.

And I think the remark was relevant to this thread. Nadrecks response and suggestion would also be related to this mass launch. Extended general discussion of that topic is probably not.

Offline nadreck

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #23 on: 10/03/2015 03:21 AM »
This is exactly why all those start-ups trying to build dedicated launchers for small payloads for $5-$10 million a shot are doomed to fail.

maybe, maybe not :P

Still the question I asked and had pulled.  Why this launch in 2017 was costing $100 million dollars?

That comes to $65 million launch costs & aprox $35 million processing. 

Where is the professed drop in price for reusable to $15 Million listed in many threads?

The costs are not going down as advertised :o

yes they are, as I read the news coverage it is $65 million that Spaceflight Industries is paying SpaceX, and, so far with only 3t over 20 spacecraft currently manifest, $100M that they are charging for the launch.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #24 on: 10/03/2015 06:18 AM »
Are satellites on the Sun Synch Express allowed to carry propellant and thrusters?
Some primary payload customers restrict them.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #25 on: 10/03/2015 10:16 AM »
Are satellites on the Sun Synch Express allowed to carry propellant and thrusters?
Some primary payload customers restrict them.

The Spaceflight Industries Payload User's Guide says this about satellites with propulsion (end of page 8/start of page 9):

Quote
the acceptance of the payload is subject to approval by the Launch Services Provider and Spaceflight

It also says (page 27, section 4.1 General CubeSat Requirements):

Quote
Satellite shall be in compliance with AFSPCMAN 91‐710
    o Propulsion systems, if accepted, shall be designed, integrated and tested in accordance with Volume 3.  Additionally, activation of propulsion shall have 3 inhibits.
    o Hazardous material shall be in compliance with Volume 3

So, yes, you can have thrusters, but you have to be careful with them.

http://www.spaceflightindustries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/SPUG-RevF.pdf
« Last Edit: 10/03/2015 10:17 AM by ChrisWilson68 »

Offline Carl G

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #26 on: 10/03/2015 03:32 PM »
Thread trimmed of stupidity (uncivil posts).
« Last Edit: 10/05/2015 01:53 PM by Carl G »

Offline nadreck

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #27 on: 10/06/2015 10:26 PM »
New article in Satellite Today

Quote
The mission’s manifest includes satellites ranging from a 5kg 3U CubeSat up to a 575kg satellite.

Quote
We intend to offer annual missions to a low earth, sun synchronous orbit beginning in 2017 and to Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit (GTO) beginning in 2018

Quote
Blake said Spaceflight looks forward to using a previously flown Falcon 9 rocket in the future.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Online Chris Bergin

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #28 on: 10/07/2015 12:21 PM »
XPRIZE Presser:

 Israeli Google Lunar XPRIZE Team Is First to Sign Launch Agreement For Private Mission to the Moon On SpaceX Falcon 9

SpaceIL Becomes First Google Lunar XPRIZE Team to Produce a Verified Launch Contract for a 2017 Mission, Using a SpaceX Falcon 9 Launcher via Spaceflight Industries

 

JERUSALEM, Israel (October 7, 2015)  - At a press conference held in Jerusalem today, alongside Israeli President Reuven Rivlin, and Bob Weiss, vice chairman and president of XPRIZE, SpaceIL announced a significant milestone in its race to the moon: securing a “ticket to the moon” on a SpaceX Falcon 9 launcher, with a mission scheduled for the second half of 2017. With this, SpaceIL becomes the first team to produce a verified launch contract in the US$30 million Google Lunar XPRIZE competition, and aims to accomplish not only the first Israeli mission to the moon, but also the world’s first private lunar mission.

 

“We are proud to officially confirm receipt and verification of SpaceIL’s launch contract, positioning them as the first and only Google Lunar XPRIZE team to demonstrate this important achievement, thus far,” said Bob Weiss, vice chairman and president of XPRIZE. “The magnitude of this achievement cannot be overstated, representing an unprecedented and monumental commitment for a privately-funded organization, and kicks off an exciting phase of the competition in which the other 15 teams now have until the end of 2016 to produce their own verified launch contracts. It gives all of us at XPRIZE and Google the great pride to say, ‘the new space race is on!’”

 

To win the Google Lunar XPRIZE, a privately funded team must successfully place an unmanned spacecraft on the moon’s surface that explores at least 500 meters and transmits high-definition video and images back to Earth, before the mission deadline of December 31, 2017.

 

"Only three countries have ‘soft-landed’ a rover on the surface of the moon: the United States, the former Soviet Union, and China. Now the notion of the small state of Israel being added to this exclusive list look more promising than ever,” said SpaceIL CEO Eran Privman. “ Last year we made significant strides toward landing on the moon, both in terms of project financing and in terms of the engineering design and now, we are thrilled to finally secure our launch agreement.  This takes us one huge step closer to realize our vision of recreating an ‘Apollo effect’ in Israel: to inspire a new generation to pursue Science, Engineering, Technology, and Math (STEM).”

 

Signing the launch agreement was made possible due to the completion of an additional fundraising round led by the two major contributors of SpaceIL:  Dr. Miriam and Sheldon G. Adelson Family Foundation and Morris Kahn’s Kahn Foundation.

 

SpaceIL has purchased launch services from Spaceflight Industries; an American space company who recently purchased a SpaceX Falcon 9 launcher and will manifest SpaceIL’s spacecraft as a co-lead spot, which will sit in a designated capsule inside the launcher, among a cluster of secondary payloads. Once the capsule separates from the launcher, it will automatically release the spacecraft, which will use advanced navigation sensors to guide it to the lunar surface, with engineers in a mission control room standing by to remotely send commands and corrections as needed.

 

“We’re excited to work closely with the SpaceIL team to help them realize their mission of getting to the moon”, said Curt Blake, president of Spaceflight’s launch business. “It’s very gratifying to play an integral part in SpaceIL’s quest to win the Google Lunar XPRIZE."

 

Also today, SpaceIL unveiled a new and improved design of its spacecraft, completed by SpaceIL engineers with consultation from world-renowned Israeli industrial designer, Alex Padwa, regarding the spacecraft’s exterior.  The first physical components of the new model are already starting to arrive at the SpaceIL integration lab.

 

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #29 on: 10/07/2015 02:45 PM »
So, if we assume a typical 600-800km sun-synchronous target orbit (per Wiki) for the F9 upper stage, how hard is it to get from such an orbit to the Moon, and land?  Assuming the 575kg payload is the SpaceIL spacecraft, presumably most of that is going to be fuel for the TLI burn, orbital insertion, and landing?  Seems like very thin margins, which I guess is to be expected.

Congratulations to SpaceIL on being the first Google XPrice competitor to sign a launch contract!
« Last Edit: 10/07/2015 02:47 PM by abaddon »

Offline nadreck

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #30 on: 10/07/2015 03:27 PM »
So, if we assume a typical 600-800km sun-synchronous target orbit (per Wiki) for the F9 upper stage, how hard is it to get from such an orbit to the Moon, and land?  Assuming the 575kg payload is the SpaceIL spacecraft, presumably most of that is going to be fuel for the TLI burn, orbital insertion, and landing?  Seems like very thin margins, which I guess is to be expected.

Congratulations to SpaceIL on being the first Google XPrice competitor to sign a launch contract!

According to the Spaceflight Industries schedule it is a 500-600km SSO.

More importantly the delta-V required may be significantly lower, however since only one of the many news articles covering this news story mentioned it, we may need to take this with a grain of salt until there is more confirmation:

The Verge article on the SpaceIL announcement

Quote
The team's lander, temporarily named "Sparrow," will sit in a designated capsule on the Falcon 9 rocket, among other secondary payloads. The rocket will deploy all other spacecraft aboard first, once it reaches lower Earth orbit — and Sparrow will be the last one off in the cosmic carpool. Once Sparrow is alone, the Falcon 9 will reignite the engine in its upper stage, carrying the lander a significant way toward the Moon. The lander will then detach from the rocket and propel itself the rest of the way to the lunar surface.

Of course this begs the question: "how much fuel will be left on the Falcon US?" and my guess is that depends on how many more payloads that Spaceflight Industries sells.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #31 on: 10/07/2015 03:38 PM »
According to the Spaceflight Industries schedule it is a 500-600km SSO.

More importantly the delta-V required may be significantly lower, however since only one of the many news articles covering this news story mentioned it, we may need to take this with a grain of salt until there is more confirmation:

The Verge article on the SpaceIL announcement

Quote
The team's lander, temporarily named "Sparrow," will sit in a designated capsule on the Falcon 9 rocket, among other secondary payloads. The rocket will deploy all other spacecraft aboard first, once it reaches lower Earth orbit — and Sparrow will be the last one off in the cosmic carpool. Once Sparrow is alone, the Falcon 9 will reignite the engine in its upper stage, carrying the lander a significant way toward the Moon. The lander will then detach from the rocket and propel itself the rest of the way to the lunar surface.

Of course this begs the question: "how much fuel will be left on the Falcon US?" and my guess is that depends on how many more payloads that Spaceflight Industries sells.

Does this mean three burns for the second stage, initial launch to 500-600 km, circularization in SSO, and pseudo-TLI or even four burns?
Has any Falcon second stage done three burns?   (Inject, circularization, disposal?)

Surely someone on this forum can calculate the burn-to-depletion orbit given estimates of the combined mass of the satellites, "Sparrow", and the dispensing hardware, with either three or four burns.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline nadreck

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #32 on: 10/07/2015 03:43 PM »



Surely someone on this forum can calculate the burn-to-depletion orbit given estimates of the combined mass of the satellites, "Sparrow", and the dispensing hardware, with either three or four burns.

With or without first stage recovery - plus is it RTLS or barge? As well, what will the weight of all the satellites launched be? Spaceflight industries is continuing to sell space on that flight.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #33 on: 10/07/2015 03:50 PM »
Surely someone on this forum can calculate the burn-to-depletion orbit given estimates of the combined mass of the satellites, "Sparrow", and the dispensing hardware, with either three or four burns.

With or without first stage recovery - plus is it RTLS or barge? As well, what will the weight of all the satellites launched be? Spaceflight industries is continuing to sell space on that flight.

Those doing the simulation would know better, but I would guess first stage recovery on the west coast ASDS.
You have a good point that the apogee decreases with each additional spacecraft.  There could be some agreement with SpaceIL as an anchor customer for a minimum altitude.
Are you volunteering?  ;)
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline nadreck

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #34 on: 10/07/2015 03:53 PM »


Are you volunteering?  ;)

Idle curiosity will have me throw numbers around at some point, presuming I have input numbers I am comfortable with. I promise you that if I do I will post the answers along the assumptions I make to get them.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #35 on: 10/07/2015 06:33 PM »
More importantly the delta-V required may be significantly lower, however since only one of the many news articles covering this news story mentioned it, we may need to take this with a grain of salt until there is more confirmation:

The Verge article on the SpaceIL announcement

Quote
The team's lander, temporarily named "Sparrow," will sit in a designated capsule on the Falcon 9 rocket, among other secondary payloads. The rocket will deploy all other spacecraft aboard first, once it reaches lower Earth orbit — and Sparrow will be the last one off in the cosmic carpool. Once Sparrow is alone, the Falcon 9 will reignite the engine in its upper stage, carrying the lander a significant way toward the Moon. The lander will then detach from the rocket and propel itself the rest of the way to the lunar surface.

Of course this begs the question: "how much fuel will be left on the Falcon US?" and my guess is that depends on how many more payloads that Spaceflight Industries sells.

Cool!

Spaceflight Industries may be more limited by the slots in their dispenser than by mass.  If so, they could fill up all their slots and still leave the Falcon 9 upper stage with a lot of performance.

Anyway, SpaceX probably reserves some performance margin in case some things don't go to plan.  If that's the case, and SpaceIL is willing to take some risk (it's surely not their biggest risk!) they can count on using most of that margin.

Online abaddon

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #36 on: 10/07/2015 06:58 PM »
Has any Falcon second stage done three burns?   (Inject, circularization, disposal?)
Didn't one of the early GTO launches do a final burn to depletion, presumably to validate their residuals estimations?  I seem to recall that happening...
« Last Edit: 10/07/2015 06:59 PM by abaddon »

Offline zt

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #37 on: 10/07/2015 07:11 PM »
With the limited throttle range of the Merlin 1D-Vac, if the upper stage burns to depletion to perform TLI, with sparrow as the only payload, what will the acceleration be like?
« Last Edit: 10/07/2015 07:11 PM by zt »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #38 on: 10/07/2015 07:16 PM »
With the limited throttle range of the Merlin 1D-Vac, if the upper stage burns to depletion to perform TLI, with sparrow as the only payload, what will the acceleration be like?

I believe the dispenser will also still be there, which is probably some not-insignificant mass.

Still, you have a point -- SpaceIL will definitely need to make sure Sparrow can handle high g loads!

Offline nadreck

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 - 2017 Sun Synch Express - Q3 2017
« Reply #39 on: 10/07/2015 08:07 PM »
With the limited throttle range of the Merlin 1D-Vac, if the upper stage burns to depletion to perform TLI, with sparrow as the only payload, what will the acceleration be like?

I believe the dispenser will also still be there, which is probably some not-insignificant mass.

Still, you have a point -- SpaceIL will definitely need to make sure Sparrow can handle high g loads!

Presuming 934kN full thrust and 70% being minimum then  13.58g if it is just the Sparrow, no idea what the dispenser might weigh if it is still there. But if we add even 1t we get a maximum acceleration of 11.27g at 70% of full thrust.

NOTE that the if we can presume that the Sparrow (as the largest paying payload on this flight) is oriented in the attitude it is going to land with, it does need to tolerated the maximum landing force which while only transient is still going to impose a higher acceleration tolerance along that one axis that a normal microgravity craft does not otherwise need.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

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