Author Topic: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics  (Read 17487 times)

Offline su27k

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #20 on: 07/14/2016 04:28 PM »

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #21 on: 11/10/2016 06:37 AM »
Hypersonic Flight Is Coming: Will the US Lead the Way?

Quote
"We're poised on the brink of a new era in air transportation," McBride said. "We do need to go faster. There is a market for supersonic flight over land in an efficient manner that can fly without being an annoyance to everyone on the ground."

NASA also is exploring ways to improve the efficiency and reduce the environmental impacts of subsonic aircraft. Engineers are experimenting with blended wings and other innovations.

Smith admitted that the difficulty that Congress and the president have experienced in passing budgets has caused problems in sustaining research.

"None of that is conducive to good work getting done in an efficient way," Smith said. "And we can do better. We need to get to the point where continuity actually lasts beyond just one administration, much less beyond tomorrow. And we're with you on that."

Bedke said there is no time to waste in moving these programs forward.

"It is inevitable that hypersonic technologies are going to happen," he said. "It is not inevitable that we are going to be the country to do it first. But we can be the country to do it first, but we're going to have to put our minds to it, and we're going to have to stop the history of fits and starts, of throwing money at a big program, achieving a wild success, and then having no follow-up. Or throwing a lot of money at too big a program, taking too giant a bite, failing miserably and then deciding hypersonics isn't going anywhere. Neither of those must be allowed to happen in the coming years."

http://www.space.com/34631-hypersonic-flight-technology-united-states.html

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #22 on: 11/10/2016 08:09 AM »
Hypersonic Flight Is Coming: Will the US Lead the Way?
http://www.space.com/34631-hypersonic-flight-technology-united-states.html
I feel the same way about "historical inevitability" as I do about claims that normal economics does not apply to company X.

It was claimed the triumph of Communism was also "historically inevitable." This turned out to be nonsense.

If your a military with a large budget you can already have hypersonic flight. You just stick your missile on a very big rocket, which is how Sprint ABM did it. If you want more range you make it a liquid fueled rocket.

Routine hypersonic flight, which you can buy a ticket for, needs a lot more than this. It needs a human carrying aircraft capable of long duration operation.  Options that work fine for single use, limited time systems like ablatives are not really viable for repeated, long duration operations.

Not only the options weapons use are unlikely to be viable for civilian use but it seems that due to problems with CFD the only reliable way to do a SCramjet is full scale development. Wind tunnels don't cut it either. So you need a full size, full speed development programme for a SCramjet vehicle in a way you simply don't need for any  other engine system.

IOW if you want to develop a full size SCramjet powered airliner you have to have a full size SCramjet powered airliner to do the development work on to ensure the results are accurate.

Concorde proved there is a market for flights faster than M1.  The joker in the pack is a development programme that commercial companies can afford that will sell enough vehicles for them to make a profit.

I think the days when governments like the French, British and American would do this as a cost plus project for "national pride" are long over. The US experience of both the SST and the NASP should have taught them to stay well away from this.
Russia Is Building a Nuclear Space Bomber
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/14/russia-is-building-a-nuclear-space-bomber.html

Russia reveals hypersonic stealth bomber that can launch nuclear attacks from space: Radical plane could begin testing in 2020
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3689325/Russia-reveals-hypersonic-stealth-bomber-launch-nuclear-attacks-space-Radical-plane-begin-testing-2020.html
Lots of odd ideas in these articles.

Assuming a 2 hr to target up to half a planet away that's  a speed of roughly 10 000 Km/Hr, about Mach 8.16

This is not orbital and would not break the Outer Space Treaty, except (technically) when it was outside the atmosphere.

Note also they are talking about a tri propellant (or possibly quadpropellant) engine of Kero/Methane/Air (and LO2?)

TBH this story sounds like Russia playing a version of the old "Nuclear powered bomber" scare of the 1950s, which managed to divert millions of $ into a concept that was basically unworkable.

I've also very doubtful the X37b is not big enough for a nuke, given you can put one in a 155mm or 200mm artillery shell and naval shells are being fitted with control fins and GPS to improve their accuracy.
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline Paul Howard

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #23 on: 11/18/2016 08:09 PM »
When is the next hypersonic test planned?

Offline CameronD

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With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #25 on: 12/12/2016 12:02 PM »
Quote
Aerojet Rocketdyne Explores Detonation Engine Options

For over 70 years, jet engines have powered airplanes ever more safely and efficiently. But, despite higher core temperatures and pressures, and the introduction of efficient propulsion concepts like the geared fan, conventional gas turbines may be running out of runway. A fundamental change in the way a gas turbine combusts air and fuel in its core could open a path to a new era of jet engine development, however. Long pursued by propulsion researchers as a potential game-changing ...

http://m.aviationweek.com/technology/aerojet-rocketdyne-explores-detonation-engine-options
« Last Edit: 12/12/2016 12:03 PM by Star One »

Offline Hog

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #26 on: 12/12/2016 05:01 PM »


I've also very doubtful the X37b is not big enough for a nuke, given you can put one in a 155mm or 200mm artillery shell and naval shells are being fitted with control fins and GPS to improve their accuracy.
The MADM(Medium Atomic Demolition Munition) weighed 181kg/400 pounds was a variable-yield from 1 kiloton up to 15 kilotons equivalent of TNT. Based off of the W45 warhead.

The SADM(Special Atomic Demolition Munition)  Based off of the W54 warhead which was used on the Davy Crocket weapons system which  had a warhead that weighed approx. 23kg(51 pounds) with its TNT equivalent between 10 tons and 1 kiloton.

I would have to agree that at least one of these devices could be loaded aboard an X-37B
Pics
1)MADM
2)SADM
3)XW-54 detonation yield at 6 kilotons TBT equivalent
4)Davy Crocket recoilless rifle system (2,100 built)
Paul

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #27 on: 12/12/2016 11:01 PM »
The MADM(Medium Atomic Demolition Munition) weighed 181kg/400 pounds was a variable-yield from 1 kiloton up to 15 kilotons equivalent of TNT. Based off of the W45 warhead.

The SADM(Special Atomic Demolition Munition)  Based off of the W54 warhead which was used on the Davy Crocket weapons system which  had a warhead that weighed approx. 23kg(51 pounds) with its TNT equivalent between 10 tons and 1 kiloton.

I would have to agree that at least one of these devices could be loaded aboard an X-37B
Pics
1)MADM
2)SADM
3)XW-54 detonation yield at 6 kilotons TBT equivalent
4)Davy Crocket recoilless rifle system (2,100 built)
My point exactly. The sort of thing I was thinking about was even smaller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_artillery

Specifically the W48 at 155mm with a yield of 0.1KT (IE 100 tonnes of TNT).

I'm pretty sure this and the larger W33 (200mm dia, 40KT yield) would be within the carrying mass of the X37b.

That said IRL any such plan faces several problems.
1) AFAIK the last shell was dismantled in about 2004.
2) Shells are not re-entry vehicles. It would need to be wrapped in TPS and given a guidance package. leaving it inside the X37b is a very expensive way to wage (limited, IE 1 shot) nuclear warfare.
3)Developing a suitable TPS/guidance package, along with a dispenser from the X37b's payload bay is likely to be a time consuming and expensive task. Well within the capabilities of the US, but a royal PITA.

My point was the payload limits on the X37b are not a barrier to making it an orbital nuclear delivery vehicle.

It's everything else (treaty obligations, technical complexity, sheer expense) that does that.
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline RDoc

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #28 on: 01/01/2017 11:07 PM »
I think there might also be some real questions about viability of any kind of high altitude bomber-like based attack. Sounds like a sitting duck for missile defenses.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #29 on: 01/03/2017 06:13 AM »
I think there might also be some real questions about viability of any kind of high altitude bomber-like based attack. Sounds like a sitting duck for missile defenses.
There's plenty of reason to question such an idea.

Like weaponizing a Skylon, if you have the skills to do it, you have the skills to cause trouble a lot more easily and cheaply.

It's a plot line from a straight-to-download thriller.   :(
"Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry Spencer 1/28/11  Averse to bold? You must be in marketing."It's all in the sequencing" K. Mattingly.  STS-Keeping most of the stakeholders happy most of the time.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #30 on: 01/03/2017 07:13 AM »
I think there might also be some real questions about viability of any kind of high altitude bomber-like based attack. Sounds like a sitting duck for missile defenses.
There's plenty of reason to question such an idea.

Like weaponizing a Skylon, if you have the skills to do it, you have the skills to cause trouble a lot more easily and cheaply.

It's a plot line from a straight-to-download thriller.   :(
Best you tell the new president then being as I've seen it quoted multiple times that part of the increased money for defence that he intends to introduce is for hypersonic related projects.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #31 on: 02/09/2017 08:24 PM »
Leading development of hypersonic engines and spaceplanes

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/leading-development-of-hypersonic.html

Offline CameronD

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #32 on: 02/10/2017 12:46 AM »
Leading development of hypersonic engines and spaceplanes

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/leading-development-of-hypersonic.html

That's just click-bait masquerading as a re-hash of old news and advertising.  It isn't even current, making statements like:
"Hypermach has completed final detail design of the first stage turbine core of a hypersonic engine. Manufacturing of this first stage has begun and is expected to be finished in 2016" -- Hello?  It's 2017 already.
and
"Reaction Engines of the UK is a leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" --  If anyone on the planet is a "leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" it would have to be the Hyshot team, not them.

No, nothing to see here.. move along! :)
« Last Edit: 02/10/2017 12:48 AM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #33 on: 02/10/2017 06:23 AM »
Leading development of hypersonic engines and spaceplanes

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/02/leading-development-of-hypersonic.html

That's just click-bait masquerading as a re-hash of old news and advertising.  It isn't even current, making statements like:
"Hypermach has completed final detail design of the first stage turbine core of a hypersonic engine. Manufacturing of this first stage has begun and is expected to be finished in 2016" -- Hello?  It's 2017 already.
and
"Reaction Engines of the UK is a leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" --  If anyone on the planet is a "leader in developing a hypersonic vehicle and hypersonic components" it would have to be the Hyshot team, not them.

No, nothing to see here.. move along! :)

Your commentary about REL is pretty disingenuous.

Offline Star One

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General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #34 on: 02/17/2017 06:36 PM »
Classified Report On Hypersonics Says U.S. Lacking Urgency

Quote
Less than four years ago, it seemed that the U.S. Air Force was on the brink of developing the first generation of air-breathing high-speed strike weapons following the success of the experimental scramjet-powered Boeing X-51A. Now a classified report warns that the U.S. may be losing its lead in hypersonics to China and Russia. Although parallel research on hypersonic glide vehicles under DARPA’s HTV-2 program suffered failures in 2010 and 2011, the Air Force by 2013 appeared ...

Quote
Others involved in U.S. hypersonics support the report’s recommendations. Kevin Bowcutt, senior technical fellow and chief scientist for hypersonics at Boeing Research and Technology, says “many lessons on the path to X-51A success were hard-earned. Given the criticality of hypersonics as articulated in the report and with X-51A under our belt, there would be obvious value in leveraging this extensive experience and know-how to accelerate full-scale development of an operational hypersonic vehicle or weapon.”

Bowcutt also believes the U.S. needs to create “a comprehensive national plan with adequate funding that fields offensive and defensive hypersonic capabilities as quickly as technology maturation, system integration and capability demonstration allow.”

“It is a big problem for us. We have been kind of resting on our laurels,” says Leon McKinney, president of McKinney Associates and former executive director of the U.S. hypersonics industry team. “The U.S. has been fighting wars and terrorism, so that is one of the reasons why we have not seen a burst of capability developments. But it seems our adversaries are catching up.”

McKinney backs a three-phased approach to spurring development of a boost-glide capability, starting with a focus on an offensive hypersonic system that he believes could still be fielded within three years. Development of a defensive system, which McKinney says is “tough,” would aim at characterizing Chinese and Russian vehicle maneuvering capabilities to produce a “threat tube,” to enable effective interdiction. A third element would include development of a maneuvering target vehicle “which we could engage as a simulated threat.”

The report does not specify that current programs should be abandoned, “but we think there are some programmatic changes we need to see,” says Lewis. “We just say, step on the gas and move these programs forward. If you want to map out a strategy to get you from the things we have tested to an operational system, one would argue we are not on that track.”

http://aviationweek.com/defense/classified-report-hypersonics-says-us-lacking-urgency

Podcast: Hypersonics Wake-Up Call

http://aviationweek.com/defense/podcast-hypersonics-wake-call
« Last Edit: 02/17/2017 07:02 PM by Star One »

Offline CameronD

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #35 on: 02/19/2017 09:37 PM »
Classified Report On Hypersonics Says U.S. Lacking Urgency

Sounds to me more like a call for more money by someone frustrated at the current lack of progress..

After all, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of aerospace that "The Russians Are Coming!" evoked a response from those holding the purse-strings.  :P
« Last Edit: 02/19/2017 09:41 PM by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #36 on: 02/19/2017 10:08 PM »
Classified Report On Hypersonics Says U.S. Lacking Urgency

Sounds to me more like a call for more money by someone frustrated at the current lack of progress..

After all, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of aerospace that "The Russians Are Coming!" evoked a response from those holding the purse-strings.  :P

I expect it to work pretty well if it is in the current climate.

Offline Arch Admiral

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #37 on: 02/20/2017 02:22 AM »
Before anyone posts anything about hypersonic flight, they should read T. A. Heppenheimer's book
FACING THE HEAT BARRIER: A HISTORY OF HYPERSONICS (NASA-SP-2007-4232). It's probably available free from the NASA History Program website and is the best popular history of this field. Any sane person who reads this book won't be fooled by scare stories in the tabloid press about impossible Russian and Chinese hypersonic aircraft.

Offline Star One

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #38 on: 02/20/2017 05:53 AM »
Before anyone posts anything about hypersonic flight, they should read T. A. Heppenheimer's book
FACING THE HEAT BARRIER: A HISTORY OF HYPERSONICS (NASA-SP-2007-4232). It's probably available free from the NASA History Program website and is the best popular history of this field. Any sane person who reads this book won't be fooled by scare stories in the tabloid press about impossible Russian and Chinese hypersonic aircraft.

Who said anything about aircraft here.

Offline Archibald

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Re: General Hypersonic Flight Related Topics
« Reply #39 on: 02/20/2017 06:34 AM »
Well my post has been censored but it doesn't matter. I say it again (perhaps more politely) David Axe knows little about spaceflight and it is more clickbait than anything else.
As for the Daily Mail it is hardly better.



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