This is HSF exploration, ISRU robotic missions are separate projects. ESA are talking about using commercial landers for ISRU robotic mission, see post above.Its better that ISRU is not in critical path for manned lunar exploration but run in parallel. For manned base ISRU is critical but not for exploration missions.
It's disappointing to me to have a bunch of government agencies come out with yet another reference mission that ignores SpaceX's ITS/BFR plans. Of course the SpaceX plans might not pan out, but the same is true of the government reference missions. I would have hopped that they would start taking SpaceX seriously and at least try to work with them instead of making long-term plans that ignore the SpaceX plans.I guess the government space agencies still feel too threatened by SpaceX. It's a shame.
Quote from: ChrisWilson68 on 09/23/2017 07:39 pmIt's disappointing to me to have a bunch of government agencies come out with yet another reference mission that ignores SpaceX's ITS/BFR plans...Got two words on this: Red Dragon
It's disappointing to me to have a bunch of government agencies come out with yet another reference mission that ignores SpaceX's ITS/BFR plans...
Quote from: savuporo on 09/23/2017 08:36 pmQuote from: ChrisWilson68 on 09/23/2017 07:39 pmIt's disappointing to me to have a bunch of government agencies come out with yet another reference mission that ignores SpaceX's ITS/BFR plans...Got two words on this: Red DragonAs if that means anything. To refresh your memory, NASA pulled out of ExoMars, yet here ESA still wants to hitch a ride on a NASA vehicle. So what about Red Dragon?
This thread is about ESA moon plans, there 100s of SpaceX threads if you want discuss them and their vehicles.
ESA, NASA, JAXA and Canda have been quietly working on lunar surface exploration architecture and here it is. Not funded, but without a detailed plan and cost estimate they can't ask governments for funding.http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Whitley-Landgraf_9-20-17/Here is brief summary.2 x 2 man rovers on single lander (crew descent stage?). Nuclear and solar powered, designed for 42day missions. Left on surface with life of 5+ missions over few years.1 x 4man lander. 2 stage, expendable methane descent stage, reusable ascent stage which uses storeable fuel. Typical flight 0.5days but can support crew for 3-4.In emergency a rover can support 4 till they get back to lander. Initial mission is 3 x SLS, 1x rovers, 1x crew lander 1 x Orion and crew. Follow on missions are 1.5 SLS not very well explained but new descent stage, fuel for ascent stage plus surplus.Allow for commercial partners especially cargo and fuel to DSG plus cargo landers. Canada + ESA for rover development. ESA ascent stage, JAXA descent stage. NASA would most likely provide some help but lion share of development costs will be on 3 international partners. I think it is good plan, with large chunk be reusable. Bang for bucks it is very good considering each mission results in 168 man days on surface. Still comes down to funding ($20B) which ESA may struggle with given their large input.
Quote from: TrevorMonty on 09/24/2017 09:37 amThis thread is about ESA moon plans, there 100s of SpaceX threads if you want discuss them and their vehicles.I disagree, commercial space participation is definitely on topic, in fact it's specifically asked during the Q&A, and an interesting discussion followed. SpaceX was not mentioned, but Bezos was mentioned by name. It looks like the presenters would welcome commercial space participation in the form of small cargo landers, but they don't think commercial space can do large cargo or human landers. There're some mentioning of DSG being the forefront of testing how commercial space can participate.PS: here's the news that triggered the question about commercial space after the presentation: http://parabolicarc.com/2017/09/22/esa-buy-ride-moon-commercial-spacecraft/, it seems that ESA is already looking at this direction.
NASA, Roscosmos Sign Joint Statement on Researching, Exploring Deep SpaceBuilding a strategic capability for advancing and sustaining human space exploration in the vicinity of the Moon will require the best from NASA, interested international partners, and U.S. industry. As NASA continues formulating the deep space gateway concept, the agency signed a joint statement with the Russian Space Agency, Roscosmos, on Wednesday, Sept. 27 at the 68th International Astronautical Congress in Adelaide, Australia.This joint statement reflects the common vision for human exploration that NASA and Roscosmos share. Both agencies, as well as other International Space Station partners, see the gateway as a strategic component of human space exploration architecture that warrants additional study. NASA has already engaged industry partners in gateway concept studies. Roscosmos and other space station partner agencies are preparing to do the same."While the deep space gateway is still in concept formulation, NASA is pleased to see growing international interest in moving into cislunar space as the next step for advancing human space exploration," said Robert Lightfoot, NASA's acting administrator at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "Statements such as this one signed with Roscosmos show the gateway concept as an enabler to the kind of exploration architecture that is affordable and sustainable."NASA plans to expand human presence into the solar system starting in the vicinity of the Moon using its new deep space exploration transportation systems, the Space Launch System rocket and Orion spacecraft. This plan challenges our current capabilities in human spaceflight and will benefit from engagement by multiple countries and U.S. industry.Studies of the gateway concept will provide technical information to inform future decisions about potential collaborations. These domestic and international studies are being used to shape the capabilities and partnering options for implementing the deep space gateway.The space station partners are working to identify common exploration objectives and possible missions for the 2020s, including the gateway concept. A key element of their study is to ensure that future deep space exploration missions take full advantage of technology development and demonstration enabled by the International Space Station, as well as lessons learned from its assembly and operations.During the same time period and in parallel, NASA has been engaging U.S. industry to evaluate habitation concepts for the gateway and for the deep space transport that would be needed for Mars exploration. NASA has competitively awarded a series of study and risk reduction contracts under the Next Space Technologies for Exploration Partnerships (NextSTEP) Broad Agency Announcement to advance habitation concepts, technologies, and prototypes of the required capabilities needed for deep space missions. The most recent awards included six U.S. companies; Bigelow Aerospace, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Orbital ATK, Sierra Nevada Corporation, and Nanoracks. Five of the six firms were selected to develop full-sized ground-based engineering prototypes of habitation systems, expected to be complete in 2018. NASA has also solicited industry proposals for studies on concept development of a power and propulsion element, which would be the first piece of a gateway architecture.
Quote from: Khadgars on 09/27/2017 03:09 pmWhy is that posted in this thread? Nothing to do with ESA.If ESA is leading us back to the Moon, you don't think it will be going through the DSG?
Why is that posted in this thread? Nothing to do with ESA.
"It’s 2017, we should have a lunar base by now," he said, speaking just a couple of years shy of the 50th anniversary of the Apollo landings. "What the hell is going on?"
JAXA plans to construct a fuel plant at the lunar south pole & include a human lunar stay of 500days! for a crew of 4 #leag2017 #MoonVillage
JAXA human exploration plans include a stay of 500 days (!) for a crew of 4 on the Moon. #leag2017
Jaxa also has plans for the Moon:QuoteJAXA plans to construct a fuel plant at the lunar south pole & include a human lunar stay of 500days! for a crew of 4 #leag2017 #MoonVillagehttps://twitter.com/Capoglou/status/917789236023255040QuoteJAXA human exploration plans include a stay of 500 days (!) for a crew of 4 on the Moon. #leag2017https://twitter.com/Ryan_N_Watkins/status/917786138684911616See also the following chart:https://twitter.com/USRAedu/status/917788420268810240
Quote from: yg1968 on 10/11/2017 03:57 amJaxa also has plans for the Moon:QuoteJAXA plans to construct a fuel plant at the lunar south pole & include a human lunar stay of 500days! for a crew of 4 #leag2017 #MoonVillagehttps://twitter.com/Capoglou/status/917789236023255040QuoteJAXA human exploration plans include a stay of 500 days (!) for a crew of 4 on the Moon. #leag2017https://twitter.com/Ryan_N_Watkins/status/917786138684911616See also the following chart:https://twitter.com/USRAedu/status/917788420268810240...ok now I'm wondering if it should be JAXA leading us back to the Moon...
Lunar Pathfinder animation;
Until now, if you’re an entrepreneur planning future missions beyond Earth, you’d have to ask a big space agency to borrow their deep-space antennas. Now, thanks to the UK’s county of Cornwall and ESA, you’ll have a commercial option, too.If you’re planning on flying a robotic or even human mission in the near future to the Moon, an asteroid or even Mars, one indispensable requirement you’ll face is the need for at least one deep-space tracking dish to communicate with your craft.Today, however, there’s no commercial deep-space service available to rent – and building a new station from scratch all on your own is rather pricey, although would be justified for a spacecraft travelling to exotic locations like Jupiter.ESA has three deep-space dishes, in Australia, Spain and Argentina, that provide leading-edge performance and full-sky coverage for tracking and communicating with missions like Mars Express, Gaia and ExoMars.Later this year, they will add the new BepiColombo mission to Mercury and, in the near future, ESA’s Solar Orbiter, Euclid and Cheops.“The amount of science data flowing in from ESA’s current missions, not to mention from future missions with improved instruments, is growing strongly,” says ESA’s Pier Bargellini, responsible for network operations.“By the middle of the next decade, ESA’s deep-space communication needs for supporting today’s missions, like ExoMars, and upcoming spacecraft, like Juice, is expected to exceed our present capacity by around half.“We are considering urgently how to bridge this gap.”This is why ESA engineering teams are excited by a new initiative aimed at redeveloping part of Goonhilly Earth Station, an existing commercial station in Cornwall, UK, to enable it to provide Europe’s first deep-space tracking services on a commercial basis.Under the project, a 32 m-diameter dish built in 1985 will be upgraded to provide fast data links for missions far beyond Earth – typically exceeding 2 million km.In future, once commercial capacity is available, ESA’s deep-space antenna network will focus on supporting sophisticated missions demanding high-performance systems.Test links will be made with ESA missions such as Mars Express, one of the first times an Agency mission communicates with a non-ESA, non-NASA station from another planet.The project will be initially funded through a €9.5 million investment from the UK’s Cornwall & Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership, a public–private regional economic development body, and will later include a smaller investment from ESA. “Once the station upgrade work is complete, in about 24 months, Goonhilly will be able to complement ESA’s own stations, and provide deep-space tracking for the Agency’s missions as well as those of other space agencies or from private space start-ups aiming to exploit the Moon or mine asteroids,” notes Klaus-Jürgen Schulz, responsible of ESA ground station engineering. Goonhilly, established in 1962 and at one time the largest satellite station in the world, with over 60 dishes of varying size, is well known in the UK. Its antennas have brought iconic images to UK TV viewers, including Muhammad Ali fights, the Olympic Games, the Apollo 11 Moon landing and 1985’s Live Aid concert. With the growing demand for deep-space tracking for both space agencies and new commercial space companies, the Goonhilly upgrade is an excellent example of how ESA can foster new business for European industry through engineering contracts to transform existing antennas into state-of-the art deep-space ground stations.“Upgrading Goonhilly and building up a commercial capability to support future exploration missions is good for ESA and good for European science and industry,” says Rolf Densing, ESA’s Director of Operations. “It’s also excellent value for European taxpayers.”
Apparently the incoming leadership of ESA is speaking about literally reaching for the Moon after the ISS is deorbited. There's been hints that ESA, in addition to the international community in general, has been taking an interest in the Moon of late while NASA speaks of Mars. However, Johann-Dietrich Wörner (the new ESA chief) spoke more specifically about looking into a lunar base as ESA's next step after their duty with the ISS is completed.If anyone has more details on Wörner's moon plans do post them here, as they seem indicative of a promising direction of human space flight.As for this direction in general, I approve. We all know the basic logic behind the Moon: it's a helluvalot closer to us than Mars. NASA brags about Orion taking us to Mars...but by itself Orion can't safely do anything beyond circling Luna or visiting its Lagrange points; the fact ESA's building its service module seems foreboding coupled with ESA's lunar preference. ESA seems to approach this logically, whereas NASA is attempting a great leap when it can't honestly repeat the effort made 40+ years ago (a less-than-secret embarrassment shared by engineers and enthusiasts).Unless NASA establishes the technologies needed for Mars (ISRU, aerocapture, maybe SEP), the Moon is the only thing in our reach. On the other hand, we already have the means for lunar travel: HLVs, a crewed orbiter...just add lander and the set is complete. Hypothetically, ESA might develop the lander and even spearhead the moon base it's chief suggested.