Author Topic: ESA leading us back to the Moon  (Read 46581 times)

Offline Oli

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #40 on: 05/06/2015 01:27 AM »
The scantily outlined details for getting to the moon seem to involve heavy collaboration with the United States. The article implies Europeans on Orion (which was probable anyway if the flight rate gets up).

NASA seems to be hell-bent on doing flags and footprints on Mars instead of a sustained human presence on the Moon, so good luck with that.

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #41 on: 05/06/2015 01:28 AM »
ESA has published an exploration strategy
http://esamultimedia.esa.int/multimedia/publications/ESA_Space_Exploration_Strategy/
Excellent! Now that's what we like to see!  :D
Good work.
Nice ;)

The bit I have seen I like. It looks like primarily cooperating on a (presumably high) lunar orbit outpost (which ties in nicely with ARM), then things like teleoperation and robotic sample return, with human access an eventual goal.

Current considerations and conceptual work reflected
in the ISECG Global Exploration Roadmap foresee the
development of a staging post in the lunar vicinity.
Such a staging post advances lunar surface exploration
capabilities and deep space exploration. It opens
up options for innovative approaches and mission
scenarios for lunar exploration, such as humanassisted
robotic surface operations (e.g. tele-operations
of automated lunar surface infrastructures), as well as
refurbishment of re-usable lunar lander.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #42 on: 05/06/2015 01:43 AM »
Who is going to pay for this?
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #43 on: 05/10/2015 04:17 PM »
The same people who pay for everything else.

Online wannamoonbase

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #44 on: 05/11/2015 06:26 AM »
The scantily outlined details for getting to the moon seem to involve heavy collaboration with the United States. The article implies Europeans on Orion (which was probable anyway if the flight rate gets up).

If I was inside NASA and believed in Moon first and not the administrations declared, but largely unfunded, Mars goal I'd ask my friends in ESA to put their intentions out there.

Moon first is the only thing that makes sense in timeframe, available technology and current funding.

Much the technology needed already exists in industry, including launch vehicles.  NASA and partners should contract for those items needed. Provide a performance requirement and let the creative minds of industry present solutions.  Items like tugs, fuel depots, ISRU technology can all come from industry. 

As for doing it without the U.S. And partnering with Russia.  That's an idea doomed to fail.  Russis is already having problems maintaining their capabilities. Once SpaceX guts their commercial launches and the U.S. Can launch crews domestically and Russia losses that funding I expect to see their launch industry to have ever more problems.  The only thing that saves Russia space capability is a better government. 

The moon will be first and it's going to happen after the ISS. Thank you ESA for advancing the conversation. 
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Offline AlexA

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #45 on: 05/11/2015 11:50 AM »
ESA has published an exploration strategy

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/multimedia/publications/ESA_Space_Exploration_Strategy/

P15 (last para) says:

"The European development of the service module for
NASA’s Orion crew transportation vehicle together
with the development of an international lunar landing
capability with Roscosmos
provides a sustained role for
ESA in such architecture."

[my emphasis]

This is the first I've heard of this co-development of a lunar-lander with Roscosmos. Is this an aspiration or a funded activity?

Offline The Amazing Catstronaut

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #46 on: 05/11/2015 12:07 PM »

This is the first I've heard of this co-development of a lunar-lander with Roscosmos. Is this an aspiration or a funded activity?

I'd say notional. The media (and far before that, we) would be all over that if there was anything substantial there.

Anybody who follows ESA a little closer have an opinion (or evidence) on that?
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Offline woods170

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #47 on: 05/11/2015 01:55 PM »

This is the first I've heard of this co-development of a lunar-lander with Roscosmos. Is this an aspiration or a funded activity?

I'd say notional. The media (and far before that, we) would be all over that if there was anything substantial there.

Anybody who follows ESA a little closer have an opinion (or evidence) on that?

Reboot of the German lunar lander initiative that got bumped at the 2012 Ministerial conference, now under the flag of international cooperation. It's not notional. This got initial approvement at the 2014 Ministerial conference. It was one of trades that flew below the radar at the latest conference because all attention was going to Ariane 6 and the associated stand-off between Germany and France.
« Last Edit: 05/11/2015 01:56 PM by woods170 »

Offline gospacex

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #48 on: 05/11/2015 02:02 PM »
This comes from organization which failed to create a financially sustainable LEO cargo delivery craft. Not confidence-inspiring.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #49 on: 05/11/2015 02:50 PM »
If reports could land us on the moon, ESA would have a moonbase by now. Unfortunately reports are no substitute for building HW.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #50 on: 05/11/2015 03:11 PM »
The same people who pay for everything else.
You mean everybody but Spain , Italy and Greece?
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline redliox

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #51 on: 05/11/2015 04:58 PM »
If reports could land us on the moon, ESA would have a moonbase by now. Unfortunately reports are no substitute for building HW.

Does that imply NASA likewise would have had a city on Pluto?  ;)
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Offline The Amazing Catstronaut

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #52 on: 05/20/2015 08:00 AM »
If reports could land us on the moon, ESA would have a moonbase by now. Unfortunately reports are no substitute for building HW.

Does that imply NASA likewise would have had a city on Pluto?  ;)

More like Gliese 581 b.
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Offline woods170

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #53 on: 05/20/2015 08:47 AM »
This comes from organization which failed to create a financially sustainable LEO cargo delivery craft. Not confidence-inspiring.
There never was a requirement to make ESA's LEO cargo delivery craft (aka ATV) 'financially sustainable'. In the traditional aerospace community - regardless of being governance or industry - you never get what you don't ask for.

Offline kato

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #54 on: 06/13/2015 02:06 PM »
The article implies Europeans on Orion
In an interview with German weekly Spiegel due to be published in print the coming monday Wörner has apparently declared he wants Europe to have an autonomous way into space and that in his opinion Ariane 5 could be turned into a manned launcher for this purpose within 4-5 years.

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/neuer-esa-chef-woerner-will-eigene-bemannte-fluege-ins-all-a-1038535.html (in German)

And you can bet on no development money from ESA for Dream Chaser.
Eh, Wörner will (metaphorically) just bring that with him when he switches over from DLR... which does provide some funding for Dream Chaser, at least until 2017. Besides, under CCiCap SNC's DC is 96% funded by now.

Offline Impaler

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #55 on: 06/14/2015 03:46 PM »
The only way I can see ESA using DreamChaser is if SierraNevada were to relocate significant portions of the DC logistics and supply chain to Europe particularly France and Germany (SN has some presence in Europe already).  The actual vehicle/s might be manufactured in the US but because most of the money is spent in flying and maintaining it ESA would demand that money stay in Europe.

Offline The Amazing Catstronaut

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #56 on: 06/14/2015 05:40 PM »

In an interview with German weekly Spiegel due to be published in print the coming monday Wörner has apparently declared he wants Europe to have an autonomous way into space and that in his opinion Ariane 5 could be turned into a manned launcher for this purpose within 4-5 years.



Well, they've gotta' use Ariane for something in a post 2016/2017/2018/2019/2020 world, because it's going to become commercially unviable at some point during that stretch.
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Offline kato

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #57 on: 06/16/2015 09:18 PM »
11-minute interview by rbb inforadio with Wörner regarding taking over ESA DG post:
http://www.inforadio.de/programm/schema/sendungen/vis_a_vis/201506/221426.html
In German. Mostly about other things, political, looking back at DLR and forward to ESA.

Regarding the moon:
- he's pushing ISRU, a lot; "so, dust and 3D printers?" - "sure, why not"
- asked about NASA's Mars ambitions, he sees landing on Mars "and other celestial bodies" as something for the future - something that humanity shall and will at some point achieve, but not necessarily during his lifetime.
- He sees the moon as one of two parallel immediate post-ISS manned spaceflight projects for ESA (the other being LEO "use of microgravity" (commercial?) in cooperation with the USA)
- Interestingly he's only talking about ISS in past tense - along the lines of "we have to look for the next thing"
- At the end of the interview he (again) proposes landing humans specifically on the far side of the moon as his personal vision for a lunar mission, "not scientifically checked - yet". Not a new idea though, he has endorsed the far side quite publically over the past two months or so along with head of the ESA astronaut corps Thomas Reiter.

Offline davey142

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #58 on: 06/17/2015 05:34 PM »
I could see this happening by 2030. It would have to be post-ISS because the funds just aren't there at this time. ESA could use SLS / Orion for crew transportation, and work on a lander and initial Lunar infrastructure themselves. Longer-term infrastructure could be developed in a joint US-Europe-Russia way, much like the ISS.

As far as NASA being willing to go to do the Moon with ESA, why not? I mean, NASA doesn't have anything resembling actual plans to go anywhere. It's very easy to change a plan that barely exists, especially when national pride is on the line.

Offline floss

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Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #59 on: 06/19/2015 02:25 PM »
ESA/NASA could be on the moon within 5 years simply by stocking fuel in earth orbit while their building the 2  lunar landers cargo and reusable personal  .
ESA/NASA  pays for fuel nothing else .

By following a COTS like structure for fuel transfer the size of the moon ships can be radically shrank and existing and near therm launchers can launch large payloads to the Moons  surface .

Such a market would transform near earth space and enable a Mars mission earlier .

Plus the missions that have not yet been dreamed of can be accomplished.
 
Lets hope some body starts selling fuel in leo soon

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