Author Topic: ESA leading us back to the Moon  (Read 46614 times)

Online MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3787
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 1384
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #120 on: 11/13/2016 02:30 AM »
The Lunar village may have a another member/advocate (Trump administration).

Reading that makes we wanna puke. Rather go it alone.
Hey - we've gotta get to that there Luna; he'll be gone in a few years, but mankind needs to be on the Moon more or less permanently...
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #121 on: 11/13/2016 07:23 AM »
Between SLS, Orion, DSH and ISS, NASA couldn't afford to develop a lander.  Better to support commercial  lander ventures by being buying their services.

Online redliox

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1719
  • Arizona USA
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #122 on: 11/13/2016 08:08 AM »
Considering Trump isn't exactly ESA-related, I'm going to start a thread to talk about future endeavors involving more direct NASA involvement (and regarding any Lunar-related aspects of the president-elect's agendas) while ESA news can stay here.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Online redliox

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1719
  • Arizona USA
  • Liked: 323
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #123 on: 11/13/2016 08:30 AM »
Fresh thread to deposit joint ESA-NASA-International news bits: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41610.msg1609076#new
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7285
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 2935
  • Likes Given: 870
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #124 on: 11/13/2016 03:26 PM »

Hey - we've gotta get to that there Luna; he'll be gone in a few years, but mankind needs to be on the Moon more or less permanently...
Why?
« Last Edit: 11/13/2016 03:26 PM by woods170 »

Offline DreamyPickle

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 146
  • Home
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #125 on: 11/13/2016 04:26 PM »
How exactly would this translate operationally? Is it even possible to ensure supply rotation for a moon base using the Ariane 5?

I found this old paper for an ESA lunar lander which estimates 1-2 tons of landed payload for a single launch. This could be used to deploy scientific payloads like rovers but if you add the overhead of pressurization you get very little for logistics.

Cooperating with NASA might make sense, the SLS could be used to deploy large-ish pieces of infrastructure for the base.

Offline Phil Stooke

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 353
  • Canada
  • Liked: 195
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #126 on: 11/13/2016 04:36 PM »
"I would like to remind you that having ISS built from several countries' components is one of the reasons it was built so much behind schedule."

I would like to remind you that having ISS built from several countries' components is one of the reasons it was built at all.

Online MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3787
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 1384
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #127 on: 11/13/2016 08:49 PM »

Hey - we've gotta get to that there Luna; he'll be gone in a few years, but mankind needs to be on the Moon more or less permanently...
Why?
"If God had meant us to go into Space; he would have given us a Moon".
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3125
  • Florida
  • Liked: 1517
  • Likes Given: 118
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #128 on: 11/13/2016 09:19 PM »
This is where the discussion on another thread comes in about the "threshold of pain" of the cost of sustainment for a permanent Lunar base. Once a program is defined that meets that criteria it will likely continue regardless of transitions. This has been the problem in the past for a Lunar base or even just and extended period Lunar exploration program. Once the coalition disappeared so did the program.

So for any lasting program the costs need to be significantly lower than those being thrown around. Being on the outside of congress we don't know where that threshold lies and possibly even congress itself doesn't know either. It is obviously a value that moves around but for a viable program it needs to be at a cost under the possible minimum which is definitely around or below that of the ISS or SLS/Orion programs.

Offline bolun

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2579
  • Europe
  • Liked: 188
  • Likes Given: 67
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #129 on: 01/07/2017 02:31 PM »
http://www.esa.int/For_Media/Press_Releases/ESA_activities_in_2017_of_interest_to_media

Quote
Opening of Lunar analogue facility

A new facility for tests and to familiarise astronauts with a Moon-like environment will be opened.

Location: EAC, Cologne (Germany)

Date: second half 2017

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7285
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 2935
  • Likes Given: 870
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #130 on: 01/07/2017 02:39 PM »
http://www.esa.int/For_Media/Press_Releases/ESA_activities_in_2017_of_interest_to_media

Quote
Opening of Lunar analogue facility

A new facility for tests and to familiarise astronauts with a Moon-like environment will be opened.

Location: EAC, Cologne (Germany)

Date: second half 2017
Yeah, just more study. Boring...

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7285
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 2935
  • Likes Given: 870
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #131 on: 01/07/2017 02:42 PM »

Hey - we've gotta get to that there Luna; he'll be gone in a few years, but mankind needs to be on the Moon more or less permanently...
Why?
"If God had meant us to go into Space; he would have given us a Moon".
If God had meant to sustain life on Earth; he would have given a Sun, a Moon, an Earth magnetic field and water. Lotsa water.

Offline Rocket Science

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7948
  • NASA Educator Astronaut Candidate Applicant 2002
  • Liked: 2155
  • Likes Given: 5090
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #132 on: 01/07/2017 02:56 PM »
"I would like to remind you that having ISS built from several countries' components is one of the reasons it was built so much behind schedule."

I would like to remind you that having ISS built from several countries' components is one of the reasons it was built at all.
The U.S. is capable of creating cost over-runs and be behind schedule all on it's own thank you... ;)
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob, Physics instructor, aviator, vintage auto racer

Offline Eric Hedman

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 766
  • Liked: 186
  • Likes Given: 157
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #133 on: 01/26/2017 05:53 AM »
DW speaks to ESA Director General Jan Wörner:

http://www.dw.com/en/esa-looks-ahead-at-2017-and-beyond/av-37213912

Offline Dao Angkan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 24
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #134 on: 08/01/2017 07:06 PM »
Lunar Pathfinder animation;


Offline TrevorMonty

Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #135 on: 08/02/2017 08:36 AM »
Lunar Pathfinder animation;


Its a good first step back to moon. If cubesats it delivers can also act as comms relays then they could cover a large part of moon in one mission. Makes things a simpler for landers and rovers.

One of my favourite ideas is Solar Power Satellites beaming power via laser to rovers and landers. Even few 100Ws every few hours should enable them to survive lunar night. There is FISO podcast on this concept, around a couple years ago.

Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #136 on: 08/20/2017 06:59 AM »
Its a good first step back to moon. If cubesats it delivers can also act as comms relays then they could cover a large part of moon in one mission. Makes things a simpler for landers and rovers.

Yes, sounds like a plan. Goonhilly and SSTL seem two solid, lean and mean small companies. But the overall Lunar Village vision has, I fear, less than a chance in hell of being funded by ESA. I hope I'm wrong. In the meantime, best wishes to Goonhilly and SSTL for their 2019 mission!

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #137 on: 09/21/2017 01:08 AM »
ESA, NASA, JAXA and Canda have been quietly working on lunar surface exploration architecture and here it is. Not funded, but without a detailed plan and cost estimate they can't ask governments for funding.

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Whitley-Landgraf_9-20-17/

Here is brief summary.
2 x 2 man rovers on single lander (crew descent stage?). Nuclear and solar powered, designed for 42day missions. Left on surface with life of 5+ missions over few years.
1 x 4man lander. 2 stage, expendable methane descent stage, reusable ascent stage which uses storeable fuel. Typical flight 0.5days but can support crew for 3-4.

In emergency a rover can support 4 till they get back to lander.

Initial mission is 3 x SLS, 1x rovers, 1x crew lander 1 x Orion and crew.
Follow on missions are 1.5 SLS not very well explained but new descent stage, fuel for ascent stage plus surplus.

Allow for commercial partners especially cargo and fuel to DSG plus cargo landers.

Canada + ESA for rover development. ESA ascent stage, JAXA descent stage. NASA would most likely provide some help but lion share of development costs will be on 3 international partners.

I think it is good plan, with large chunk be reusable. Bang for bucks it is very good considering each mission results in 168 man days on surface. Still comes down to funding ($20B) which ESA may struggle with given their large input.


« Last Edit: 09/21/2017 01:13 AM by TrevorMonty »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #138 on: 09/21/2017 03:22 AM »
Here is link to Hercules robotic mission podcast from last year.

http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/telecon/Landgraf_5-25-16/

This robotic mission makes lot more sense now as it tests a lot of human mission systems. Descent and ascent engines along with RTG and landing systems. They also get robotic lander to support human surface mission. A RTG power rover with life of 2yrs would allow for a lot exploration. Unlike Curiosity, lunar rover could be driven with next to no latency from DSG and only few seconds from earth, using DSG as comms relay.


Online MATTBLAK

  • Elite Veteran & 'J.A.F.A'
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3787
  • 'Space Cadets' Let us; UNITE!! (crickets chirping)
  • New Zealand
  • Liked: 732
  • Likes Given: 1384
Re: ESA leading us back to the Moon
« Reply #139 on: 09/21/2017 03:34 AM »

Hey - we've gotta get to that there Luna; he'll be gone in a few years, but mankind needs to be on the Moon more or less permanently...
Why?
"If God had meant us to go into Space; he would have given us a Moon".
I believe the same thing applies to Antarctica. There would still be those who question the utility or purpose of being there. But I don't question it; because I'm reasonably intelligent...
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Tags: